A church is people, not petitions or politicking. The people don't want this so, by extension, the church doesn't want this. We can make as many dogmatic statements about the father of the church or the power of archbishops but ultimately you have no church if you have no people.

And so it goes...good on them.

Looks like some of those who disagree with the Catholic hierarchy have started their own movement: http://www.facebook.com/CatholicsForMarr…

As I commented on the previous post about this issue:

Is it not illegal for churches to circulate political petitions, or is it just illegal for them to advocate a certain position?

I don't really feel like they should get a cookie just for staying within the law.

@AynSavoy #3 - By and large, it is legal.

Federal law and judicial precedent allows churches to take a stand on issues they claim touches on morality or doctrine, even when the issue is currently on the ballot. That is to say, the Catholic Church, Mars Hill and the like can make thunderous denouncements of Ref. 74 and call upon parishioners to send money to petition organizers, sign the petition and then vote the measure down. Short of changing the federal tax code, nothing can be done about this.

Under that same aegis, it is legal for the church to hold petition drives and do things like set up a table with petitions and make a big presentation of pointing them out. I'm not sure if it has been legally tested, but I suspect it would be just as legal to actually pass petitions around in the pews while the service is going on.

Pretty much the only thing churches cannot do is make corporate donations to a ballot measure campaign. While Sartain can, as an individual, donate a vast sum to the Ref 74 organizers (there are no contribution limits in Washington for ballot measures) and order his flock to do the same, the Archdiocese itself cannot fund the campaign. It cannot even take up a "special collection" and donate the proceeds: that is a definite violation of federal and state law, and would no doubt result in legal sanctions. Being a bright line, however, it is very easy to walk up to the edge without ever crossing it.

St. Pauls in scenic Skyway, has had no petitions circulated. This is despite the presence of a strong, and older, pro-life contingent within the laity.

Oh, no, not the catacombs again.

Fantastic! Fr Ryan's always been one of the good ones. And when I briefly returned to the church in my mid-twenties, St Patrick's proved a really welcoming community. They have an ASL mass and the entire congregation signs along. Very cool. As someone who'll always be culturally catholic (12 yr of schooling will do that), I'm very interested in seeing what the blow-back will be from the Powers above. Impressed at these folks willing to take a stand for what's right. I worry that many will be transferred or forced to retire. Wishing them the best!!

I only hope Sartain tries to discipline these priests -- that will bring on a real parishioner revolution.

Sartain will of course discipline his "errant" priests, but it will not, alas, bring on any revolution among the passive sheep, sorry to say. And if, by some miracle, it does, the Vatican's response, while perhaps not as violent as Assad's in Syria, will be equally swift and decisive.

The Catholic die has been cast, the Catholic handwriting has been on the wall, and the Catholic deck has been stacked both by this pope and the last for at least another generation. There is, I'm afraid, no hope for Catholicism. It must die a death of natural causes (attrition) before any positive change may come from its ashes.

Add to the list Christ Our Hope in downtown Seattle not allowing petitions.

Dominic, if you want to make good use of your time, go to the 3 Catholic churches in Bellevue on Sunday. They are large, they are swing voters, they probably have a lot fewer out parishioners. I think that will be more telling than what all of the Catholic churches in the City of Seattle do on Sunday.

Republicans will eat themselves if you put some salt on their tail and put it in their mouth! Hate is hate and denying rights is hate and if your to illiterate to realize that this particular hate has nothing to do with Catholic Religion and or Traditional Marriage then you need to read a bible (yup! front to back) and you need to recognize that Gay Americans are gay Americans and in fact exist as in pay taxes perform services to the nation as in your moma and your baby girl?

Its been nothing but a freak media show for the illiterate and disillusioned that its gross.

And for they ones who dont understand Law? You can kick any church out of any city at any friggin time? If the church is against city state of federal law then their ass id gone.

Put up or shut up? Changing laws to "oppress people" may be cute and fancy in American congress but some American have risked their own lives to free the oppressed.

Ooh! Ooh! I so rarely get to roll out my Latin (courtesy of a catholic education): it's mater, not matar.

Speaking of which, "nourishing mother" is a fucking creepy way of referring to a place you were educated.

OK, putting the Latin back in its box for another few months.

Not being Catholic, I could care less what Catholic priests do, or what disciplinary actions they recieve or don't.

So what's your collective beef? Tax exempt status? They're operating within federal and state tax code, so agitate for change in the tax codes. Don't like their doctrinal position on homosexuality? The simplest thing would be not to attend a Catholic church, I'd have thought. You certainly don't have the right to abridge their free expression, at any rate. Your feewings are hurted? Aww, poor wittle babies! I'd recommend you grow up and realize your feelings aren't the primary motivator for public policy or other peoples opinions, but the Gay Special Rights lobby has exhaustively proven that mature behavior is outside their abilities.

As for Father Ryan and the other apostates, if they don't want to be Christians, leadership in a Christian church just seems a poor fit for them. I'd think they'd be happier opening a Capital Hill bathhouse, since they clearly care more about the touchy sensibilities of gay men and lesbians than their pastoral duties.

@13: "Your feewings are hurted? Aww, poor wittle babies!"

Yes, I can just hear Jesus saying those very words to all the poor wretches he met along the way and ultimately healed.

No! that was father Ryan saying he would "not" participate in the touchy feely sensibilities of gay men and lesbians than their pastoral duties.

He refused to let politics into his church? God damn was that hard to understand?

So what's your collective beef? Tax exempt status? They're operating within federal and state tax code, so agitate for change in the tax codes.

Good idea!

Don't like their doctrinal position on homosexuality? The simplest thing would be not to attend a Catholic church, I'd have thought. You certainly don't have the right to abridge their free expression, at any rate.

Good point!

I'd recommend you grow up and realize your feelings aren't the primary motivator for public policy . . .

Nor is religious faith. Freedom of religion necessarily includes freedom of irreligion; it is a blueprint for moral self-determination that necessarily and by definition limits government to the management of empirically demonstrable utilities.

I have no objection to whatever Catholics and other Christians impose upon voluntary members in the name of dubious epistemology and conflation of mythopoetry with history; what I object to--and what I submit that the Bill of Rights (as buttressed by the 14th Amendment) outright forbids--is the use of government to hold non-Christians to the same moral precepts.

As for Father Ryan and the other apostates, if they don't want to be Christians, leadership in a Christian church just seems a poor fit for them. I'd think they'd be happier opening a Capital Hill bathhouse, since they clearly care more about the touchy sensibilities of gay men and lesbians than their pastoral duties.

As soon as you make clear what special qualifications or authority you wield when it comes to determining whose interpretation of the foundational texts of your mythic construct is canon and whose is apostasy, I will grant your incessant, semi-literate babbling some respectable fraction of the seriousness you seem to think it warrants.

Thread about gay marriage

Seattle Blues--The end is nigh!

Everyone else--Citation needed

Seattle Blues-- *crickets*

@13: How does supporting equal rights for gay people make someone not Christian? Riddle me that.
Sure is No True Scotsman in here, nu?