Blogs Jun 5, 2011 at 9:45 am

Comments

1
it's extra absurd when read in the "good news" translation. calling down curses from heaven so that kids get mauled by bears for teasing an old man is what i call good news. gawd, christianity is stupid.
2
Bethel? Are you sure you don't mean Bothel? There's lots of angry balding white guys there, as well as the occasional bear.

Of course, if they meant "bears" in the gay sense, that's a whole different story. I was mauled by plenty of those kinds of bears in my youth, and I lived to tell of it. Most of the time, it was pretty fun.
3
It's clear enough: The LORD let eight of the fifty irreverent youths skate, depite their tormenting His prophet. Merciful is the LORD.
4
Bethel? Are you sure you don't mean Bothell? There's lots of angry balding men up there, plus the occasional bear.

Or maybe they meant bear in the gay sense. I was mauled by plenty of those kinds of bears in my youth, and enjoyed it immensely
5
Oh dear, sorry for the double post. I thought the slog was broken or perhaps He was showing His disapproval. Turns out I was just impatient.
6
Slog is always broken. But that rarely means your comment didn't take.

Now, Goldy, on the other hand. Well, that's another story.
7
That shut them up
8
fifty-two-eighty, it is so sad that you are always here, in every thread, every day. do you have a life?
9
The fact that two female bears did the mauling is a clear sign that God intended women to be ordained as priests. How dare the Vatican ignore this obvious message directly from the lips of God?
10
CVDR - Bethel Washington is just as appropriate, a suburb of Spanaway itself a suburb of Tacoma.
11
Kings is good, but I want you to go back to Genesis 27:11, my favorite Bible verse:

"And Jacob said to Rebekah his mother, Behold, Esau my brother is a hairy man, and I am a smooth man".
12
My favorite verse will always be Malachi 2:3.

"Behold, I will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces, even the dung of your solemn feasts; and one shall take you away with it."
13
Ah, that doesn't mean he was gay. A lot of straight guys like to watch their buddies fuck. I know I do!
14
In my version, the bears were in drag......
15
Ezekiel 23:20

There she lusted after her lovers, whose genitals were like those of donkeys and whose emission was like that of horses.
16
@8: "Every thread," eh? Nothing like a little hyperbole. Of course, I'm sure you don't know what that word means. Sorry if I offended your stupid, clueless ass.

(And besides, how would you know how many threads I comment on unless you're reading them too?)
17
I didn't know they had bears over there in those parts back in the olden days. I like bears. Baby Jesus put bears in the story just for me. Just like he found me a parking place the other day at the mall.
18
Now Paul, you know as well as I do that Catholics aren't big on the Bible. It's one of the redeeming qualities of Catholicism, if you ask me.

Although I did notice that my mother's parish is now conducting a "Vacation Bible Camp", which sounds terribly Protestant to me. Indeed, one of the great joys of Catholic youth used to be riding your bike past all of the poor schmucks at Bible Camp, and making fun of them for being stuck in something so hopelessly dreary.
19
Earth is God's Danger Room.
20
the message: do not fuck with bald men.
21
NKJV has taken all the fun and made into bleeccch, it reads like Dale Carnegie wrote it, just look at the part where Lot fucks his daughters.
22
The Bible becomes much more entertaining if you pretend that any line starting with "behold" is being said by Dr. Weird.
23
@18 I used to lead some of those Vacation Bible Camps at my church, back when I was still doing that thing. They're basically for the little ones; you get a kit with videos and cartoon characters and plans for each day, then all the teens they've got around make some cardboard backdrops.
24
I think this was one of the Star Trek: TNG episodes when Picard had to form an alliance with Lursa and B'Etor against some Tal Shiar trainees or something like that.
25
This is the sort of thing that keeps Stephen Colbert up at night.

Don't fuck with God's prophets, or He will rain down hellfire .. and bears .. upon thee.

26
Shorter Goldstein-

"In a sincere attempt to debunk the scandalous myth that many liberals and the Stranger in particular are bigoted about Christianity, I'll be taking miscelaneous Bible verses out of context and put them up for ridicule. I won't do this with the Quran, Vedas, Native American myth cycles or anything other expression of faith. Just the Bible. But I'm NOT anti religious, just anti Christi...

Damn. My bigotry just can't help but come through."

Subtlety REALLY isn't your strong suit Goldstein.
27
The Book of Kings is a revisionist history written as propaganda in support of King Josiah, a bloody and brutal tyrant. Josiah was supported by the Aaronid priests who controlled the Jerusalem Temple, a bunch of greedy and corrupt assholes who wanted the sacrificial gravy train all to themselves and wrote this crap to justify slaughtering all their competition. As a result, it should be no surprise that the Book of Kings is a vile piece of work.
28
I'll give fair warning that an afternoon spent sanding and fairing the new project boat hull with my son beats posting on Slog. I won't be responding to the tirades, obscenities and general abuse those of the virulent and dogmatic faith called atheism engage in with the mistaken notion that it replaces reasoned discussion.

Have a pleasant day.
29
This feature was snotty and has become tired on HA, now it is here on slog.

Still snotty and tired.
30
sounds like #28 announced defeat ahead of any debate.
31
@30

You can't be defeated if you don't debate, I guess.
32
"Snotty and tired"?

Hmm, never heard of it before, but it's certainly enlightening for this Catholic, who didn't get exposed to all the nonsense passages in the Holy Bible.

I can't believe Protestants actually read this shit and don't burst out laughing and become instant atheists.
33
@25 Ha! One thing I've never been able to understand about Colbert (not "Colbert") is how he still considers himself a Catholic, teaches sunday school even from what I've read, while being so obviously cognizant of the inherent inconsistencies and inhumanities of that religion.
34
"an afternoon spent sanding and fairing the new project boat hull with my son beats posting on Slog."

Well, for you maybe. What does sonny boy think of spending the afternoon with a pompous windbag?
35
@30

Don't worry about SB, his obsession will drive him back here sooner or later, no matter how many times he's humiliated.
36
Former Catholic, I should add, since aspects of that dogma made no sense to me from about age seven, up.

Guess I'm an agnostic, rather than atheist. But I must admit that whichever religion I've read about, studied, or attempted to practice has it's idiocy. And it's "believing" idiots.
37
So arguably, this post could be considered juvenile, and Goldy's online nickname is a diminutive. Why, then, does Mr. Blues not call him a child or a little boy, like I've seen him do with Savage, and instead use the full last name of Goldstein?

Hmm.
38
@33

I would guess that Colbert separates the religion from the people running it.
39
Shorter SeattleBlues:

"Waaa! You guys took my ball! I don't wanna play no more!"

And SB: Why are you breaking The Lord's Commandment regarding the Sabbath? Sounds like you didn't go to church, and you're working besides.

You DO know how much Yahweh HATES hypocrites, don't you?
40
It means that there just maybe on book that I think could be worth burning.
41
One could ask why such a tale would be found in the first place. We could get hung up on idea of the passage being factual or symbolic, but that is unanswerable in my opinion. I honestly don't know if there is evidence of interpolation and textual expansion in the O.T., there is evidence for it in the N.T. (see surviving Pauline letters ). So what can be gathered? From the surrounding text we know that the prophet Elisha was starting his ministry. One thing ministry's do is generate a school of thought. One purpose of a school of thought would be to try and influence the socioeconomic and political situation of daily life, an agenda, and another reason would be to provide a means of standing apart from society and to give reason for existence and reaffirmation its own perspective. Which includes explanations for "sufferings", "rejection"... Hence, I'm inclined to think that this passage is a symbolic tale. Its placement as the first act of Elisha's ministry, the term "baldhead" (luxuriant hair was viewed as a sign of strength), is reflecting that covenant blessings would come to
those who looked to God and showed hospitality. Those that
did not "should" expect to be cursed or to be "punished". It is intended to be a warning about lack of hospitality, which one could argue is the case, especially as the passage is followed by "miracles" in chapter 4 by those that showed hospitality.

Just a thought, though. These are old writings from an oral tradition covering ~ 2100 years, recorded over ~1200 year period some 2000 years ago. It is fascinating subject, in my opinion.
42
@36 Many self identified agnostics are de-facto atheists that are worried about identifying as full blown atheists due to social pressure. It is like someone who is almost 100% gay telling his parents he is bi just so they can think that he might someday settle down with a women and a marriage and all the normal stuff. The false accusation leveled at atheists is that they all hold a dogma and believe system which is not true. The false accusation leveled at gays is that they are going to move to the big city and have anonymous sex at bath houses and die of AIDS which is not true.

Many people identify as agnostics because, sure, you can't really be totally confident there is no god so atheist is not technically accurate. Who wants to be known as an atheist when being gay is more and more accepted yet being an atheist is not.

The more atheists come out of their agnostic closet the more accepted being an atheist will be. This is of course not to deny that agnostics exists or deserve acceptance in the same way that bisexuals exist and deserve our acceptance.
43
I wish the youths had been mauled by angry cougars instead of bears.
44
@41 I appreciate your moderate viewpoint on this topic but please consider a few things. What if you are wrong, what if the story was never intended as a symbolic tale? You show some evidence that it could be intended that way but at the same time consider all the contradictory evidence.

The language is quite clearly written as a literal story. If you back up a bit and read all of Kings 2 it is not very vague. It is written as a literal story of actions and consequences of those actions. In fact in 2 Kings 19:22 we see a story of a literal miracle performed by God at Elisha's request to purify water. The very next lines speak of the curse performed by God at Elisha's request.

The implication to me is clear here. We are to believe that Elisha is literally a prophet capable of speaking to god and having miracles or curses being granted.

So you can make an argument that the story is not to be taken literally but what is more likely? I believe that the literal interpretation of the story is the most likely intention of the author.
45
This was once my bedtime story. My Church of Christ mother (denomination of Kenneth Starr) thought this would be a fine nighty-night for a 5 year old. It was not.

46
@42 I'd nitpick your "Many people identify as agnostics because, sure, you can't really be totally confident there is no god so atheist is not technically accurate." comment a lil, Packeteer. All agnostics are by definition weak or negative atheists (strong or positive atheists are the ones who claim to know that no gods exist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_an…). Since agnostics don't know for sure whether or not a god exists, they can't by definition, believe that one does exist. If they believed god existed, they wouldn't be agnostic. They can allow for the possibility, but that does not a believer make, and not believing any gods exist is all it takes to be an atheist. When I'm being technical I describe myself as an agnostic-atheist, because I believe we can't know for certain that no gods exist, but with the information currently available it's only reasonable to assume one doesn't until better data presents itself.
48
Packeteer,

Cool! You think the passage should be taken literally. My comment was just a thought. I have no problem with being wrong. Hopefully, I've made it clear that studying the books of the Bible is a hobby for me. I'm not a scholar. But, I do recognize that the culture from which this comes is ancient, and it was an oral culture, and they didn't speak English. Perhaps, someone who is better qualified could weigh in? My comment was only to suggest that the passage could be read symbolically and the same message could be found: God's covenant blessing would come to those who welcomed his prophet and looked to God, but that God's covenant curses would come to those who turned from God and failed to welcome his prophet.

Like I said above, I'm fine with being wrong. My preference is to think critically, and I find that I personally fail at that if I get hung up on questioning if a passage of the Bible could be filmed or not. I'd rather contemplate the why it would it be found there. Perhaps, I have allowed Kurt Godel's (first) mathematical theorem (any mathematical system of sufficient complexity contains statements that are neither provably true or provably false) to influence how I consider things, and I struggle to look at scripture outside of its particular historical and socioeconomic context. And, it would be false of me to not acknowledge that I am skeptical that ancient people are just as prone to tinker-interpolate-textual expansion with information to make their point, as we are today when we manipulate sound bites to support our own agenda. "Cherry picking" is not a new development. Lastly, I have no wish to "evangelize" any person, so my $0.02 can be freely dismissed.

49
Seattleblues @26,

Surely you're not suggesting that "taking miscellaneous Bible verses out of context" is somehow wrong, misleading, anti-Christian or even un-Christian, are you?
50
I'm 61 years old, and been subjected to, studied, practiced and/or read about religion of various sorts for 57 of those years, that I can recall.

So I'm certain I'm an agnostic, and not a closet atheist.

Atheists also have their hobbyhorses to ride, and one apparently is misbelieving those who can't wholeheartedly throw themselves into atheism.

Sorry, but no one spiritual belief I've come across (including atheism) doesn't have it's idiocies or "believing" dogmatic idiots.

I've seen enough for over half a century that I'm certain about my uncertainty.
51
And the reverse -- I've also had spiritual experiences that I can't explain.

(I was an English major, so I don't have the science to explain 'em, although a physicist I know has said, "What physicists now believe how the Universe works is closer to magic than anything else.")

However, codified religion has done so much damage in this world, that I believe we would be better off without it.
52
@50 & 51 Judy, it's just a misunderstanding of definitions, I'm not trying to make you out to be something you're not. If you're agnostic about the existence of gods, then you don't actively believe they exist, which means you meet the definition of a negative atheist. Individual atheists certainly have their hobbyhorses, and mine is trying to get people to understand that all it takes to be considered an atheist is not actively believing in gods. There's only a single "tenet" and that's it. Self described agnostics like you meet that criteria, no?

And sure, there are a few idiotic Fundamentalist Atheists who "Know" that gods don't exist, and we mock them for their hubris.

And to you're unexplained spiritual experiences I'd only suggest every mystery ever solved has turned out to have a naturalistic explanation and it's well documented that human brains don't always produce accurate representations of reality.

Also such statements by physicists are often misconstrued. Phenomena like quantum entanglement and teleportation are indeed fantastic and boggle the mind, but they were predicated by theory, confirmed by experiment and require no deities in order to work, to the best of our knowledge. If you'll permit me to respond with a lil Stephen Hawking, "It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the Universe going.”
54
There's so many fun verses in the Bible.

1 Samuel 18

24 When Saul’s servants told him what David had said, 25 Saul replied, “Say to David, ‘The king wants no other price for the bride than a hundred Philistine foreskins, to take revenge on his enemies.’” Saul’s plan was to have David fall by the hands of the Philistines.

26 When the attendants told David these things, he was pleased to become the king’s son-in-law. So before the allotted time elapsed, 27 David took his men with him and went out and killed two hundred Philistines and brought back their foreskins. They counted out the full number to the king so that David might become the king’s son-in-law. Then Saul gave him his daughter Michal in marriage.

28 When Saul realized that the LORD was with David and that his daughter Michal loved David, 29 Saul became still more afraid of him, and he remained his enemy the rest of his days.
55
Dearest Catalina, there isn't a Slog thread in existence where you haven't outclassed us hoi polloi. Brah-vo, darling.
56
It's simple, really. God is a chain saw.

;-)
57
So when do we get to the part about spilling seed in the belly of a whore? Call me when we get to that chapter.
58
Silly fairy tales.
59
@49

Why should you care? I think the titles and secret handshakes and whatever of the Masons kind of silly. So I have a solution. I haven't joined the Masons. I don't get a fixation on them. I don't go fishing for reasons to put them down. I just don't seek membership.

People like Outer Cow and you truly mystify me. You wouldn't read a book and consider it an accidental conglommeration of words in some computer program. You wouldn't look at a skyscraper or cathedral and conclude that wind and rain shaped the steel and concrete or stone of the structure. You wouldn't look at a painting (excepting most of the modern ones) and conclude that paint had exploded onto the canvas willy nilly.

It takes a special kind of willful blindness to look at the wondrous all encompassing art of the created world and not see some kind of creator behind it, Stephen Hawking and his quote notwithstanding. It's because I haven't chosen blindness that I believe in God.

Having said that Christianity is subject to error. God is infinite, and any concept used to describe infinitity is necessarily flawed. In my studies and experience Christianity is the most rational of the faiths I know to describe God. But it isn't perfect. Such is life.

I might point out that the verses you quote are, given your surname, in the part of the Bible most likely shared by your faith tradition. But I honestly don't care if you're Jewish, Evangelical Atheist, Christian or anything else. It simply isn't my business.

And again, I'll believe your sincerity when you attack other religions with the fervor, single mindedness and outright slander with which liberals like you attack Christianity. But you won't, nor will any of the other anti-Christian bigots of the left. Your existence is defined not by what you believe, but by what you oppose. Once you started thinking about how absurd most of what you believe really is you might have to adopt some form of reality in your political and cultural world-view. Heaven forfend!
60
What? Two female bears came out of the closet and WHAT? Mauled?

Ever play that game where you tell somebody something and they pass it along? And it gets all changed around? I bet that happens after several translations. Especially if the the LORD puts a Palin in there somewhere.
61
@57: I splilled some sleed once. Not birdseed. Next thing you know: wildflowers EVERYWHERE! (Just like SLOG)
62
You should start posting some of Dr. Gene Scott's early videos, that way we can all study Aramaic, Greek and Latin together.
63
Okay, valuable life lesson. Don't be a dick to a pious old man who's just passing through and has nothing to do with you.

@59: So what if he's only posting bits of the Jewish and Christian holy books? He's so far only been accused of being anti-Christian, right? Maybe if there was some question as to if he was anti-Hindu, he'd post bits of Hindu scripture.
You sure seem awfully surprised about this.
64
Clearly a prophesy about the reopening of C.C. Attle’s-

The baldhead references any one of a number of regular patrons.

The “youths” or” twinks” get “cursed” or “cruised” by baldhead. And then end up getting “mauled” or “fucked” by a group of bears.
65
@63

He's actually posting bits of the Christian, Jewish AND Moslem holy books
66
How about this tidbit?

8O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction,
happy is he who repays you
for what you have done to us—
9he who seizes your infants
and dashes them against the rocks.


67
Seattleblues said: "I'll give fair warning that an afternoon spent sanding and fairing the new project boat hull with my son beats posting on Slog."

It's Sunday, the Bible says:
"Exodus 31

The Sabbath

12 Then the LORD said to Moses, 13 “Say to the Israelites, ‘You must observe my Sabbaths. This will be a sign between me and you for the generations to come, so you may know that I am the LORD, who makes you holy.
14 “‘Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it is to be put to death; those who do any work on that day must be cut off from their people. 15 For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day is a day of sabbath rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day is to be put to death."

Hmmm.
68
Seattleblues @49,

So it's okay for Christians to quote Bible verse at me to support one social policy agenda or another, or to come to my door Bible in hand, and insist that unless I accept Christ as my personal savior (i.e. believe what they believe) I will be doomed to burn in Hell for all eternity because my faith (or lack thereof, but they have no idea) is so offensive to God that it deserves eternal suffering. But, when I quote their very same Bible -- WITHOUT COMMENT -- it's an "attack" and a "slander" on Christianity?

Really? How do I attack Christianity by quoting the Bible? If it is the literal word of God, as many Christians believe, how can repeating Bible verse ever be slander?
69
Of course, in my comment above, I meant @59
70
@67: The Hebrew Sabbath is on Saturday. I'm still not sure how most denominations of Christianity ended up celebrating it on Sunday.
71

@34, I love you. You are wonderful.
72
Goldy…I don't give the metaphorical-ists much of a pass over the literalists.

Quite simply, if you hand this bible to your children and tell them this book is of or from God, thereby exalting this book over all other books ever published, and you do so without editing it and without an explicit guide for the kids as to which verses they are supposed to adhere to and which they are to ignore, then it doesn't matter how much of a liberal hippie you think Jesus was, you are supporting authoritarian gobbledygook.

If you want to be an educated, liberal christian, then produce an edited bible that represents modern, progressive values.
74
It's a really special kind of childishness which says a bunch of inflammatory nonsense, says "I'll be hypocritically refraining from engaging in your [supposedly] inflammatory nonsense," and then proceeds to participate in such nonsense.

With that said, what is the fucking point of this post? Fulfilling the Stranger's perceived or chosen role by picking on Abrahamic religions? I'd like to point out it's hard to say something is meant to be read literally when we aren't even literate in it's original language and cultural context.

I will also say that I am resolutely agnostic, but it's not because I am afraid. It's because beliefs should rarely, if ever, be believed.
75
Here's one that i find particularly poignant (and i don't appreciate the disrespect for the Bible among some of these posters!)...

"The lion and the lamb shall lie down together ...but the lamb won't get much sleep."

--NumbersRacket 1:2:3

76
When I was just a little Catalina, I used to attend the Saturday matinee at the Strand Theatre in Council Bluffs (A very grand theatre - at least for Council Bluffs - it was eventually consumed in a very suspicious fire, while the owners watched from across the street in the lobby of their undoubtedly much more profitable adult movie theatre)

Most of the time, it was pretty tame stuff: Bigfoot, UFO's, the Wonderful World of Animals, etc. But one Saturday, there was a hair curling (to me, at least) feature about how the Book Of Revelation was coming true, through the prophecies of Nostradamus. It was narrated by Leonard Nimoy. How could it be wrong?

I was sufficiently freaked out that my parents took me to see the parish priest. Old Father Kennedy was a wonderfully gruff old man. He had been a chaplain in the navy during WW II, and was a major advocate for the Native Americans who were in town for the Wounded Knee hearings, as well as a sponsor for the Vietnamese refugees who - for some unfanthonable reason - settled in Council Bluffs.

Father Kennedy (who, I should mention, was a Beneditctine - which will mean something to those whom things like that mean something) told me that the Book of Revelations was a bunch of nonsense that was added to the Catholic Bible as an afterthought (the Greeks just threw their hands up and omitted it entirely) and that the rest of the Bible was pretty questionable, factually-speaking. The whole thing, he assured me, was a series of parables and allegories that are best to be taken with considerably more than a grain of salt, and that you can't trust everything you see in the movies. Live a good life, and respect the sacraments, and you have nothing to worry about. I followed the first part of that advice, the later, not so much.

That parish is not longer Benedictine. It is currently lead by a priest that the late Papa Vel-DuRay refered to as "Father Milquetoast", and that Mother Vel-DuRay thinks is a hayseed. I have no idea - and no interest - in what his views of the Bible are. But I will always remember Father Kennedy's wise counsel.
77
@70

Because Emperor Constantine I said so, and he was the Emperor of the Eastern Roman Empire at the time, funny how so many things not in the bible found their way into Xian theology (and Islamic for that matter). If you want an insight look into the Jewish views on Hell and the after-life...
78
@70 the technical term is syncretism, the combining of two different religious doctrines. The particular Sunday issue is combining Sun worshiping with the Christian sabbath.
79
This is Old Testament, not Christians, Jews....
80
So at first I was thinking, "Stupid Christians", then I realized it was in the Hebrew Bible and I was all like, "eh, they had it coming." Even a devoted Jew like me has to admit there are plenty of fracked up things in the Bible. The important part is to remember that sticks and stones...
81
@79... Old Testament is part of the Christian Bible too. This verse is right in there in the King James and other versions.

Christians can't go around quoting Old Testament verse to justify their belief system and social policies, and then just dismiss it as crazy Hebrew stuff when there's something bizarre or offensive. It's either the word of God or it isn't.

Besides, regarding the Hebrew law, Jesus says "I have not come to abolish but to fulfill." (Matthew 5:17)
83
1) I love this story, because: bears.
2) I love you Miss Vel-DuRay. That, as a little Catholic Girl, was exactly how I was raised to view the bible too.
3) I love you Kim and OuterCow, for always bringing a nuanced and well informed point of view to these discussions.
4) SeattleBlues, will I be seeing you this Wednesday, the 8th of June, at Vermillion (1508 11th Ave) for cocktails with the rest of us Sloggers? Tom Skerritt will be there! You can tell me all about the bible!
84
@68

Ah yes, classic Goldstein passive aggressive strategy. It's what you do with most of your posts, actually. Raise an issue very designedly but obliquely, then deny that you raised the issue.

If someone comes to your door with a Bible in hand you actually can politely ask them to leave.

Is it okay for you to quote Marx or Stalin to support your social ideology? Sure, and it's okay for your neighbor who is Christian to quote the Bible to support his. You aren't free from being offended by what your neighbor says.

I eagerly await your cherry picking of the holy books of other faiths to mock them. But I'd imagine I'll be waiting a very long time.
86
@84: So? Will you be coming to Vermillion on Wednesday?

Also please provide citations for your claim that Goldy has quoted Marx and/or Stalin in support of his political position. Or is this like the other day when we were all discussing the Catholic Church aiding and abetting child rape and you were ranting about things that were going on strictly with in your own pointy little head?
And, while I do agree with you that my neighbor is free to quote any tome they so desire, I must object most strenuously when they attempt make law, cherry picked bits of ideology from said (be it the bible or the koran, or The House at Poo Corner) work of fiction.
87
@85

For me Christian embraces a pretty wide group of sects. So long as there's a belief in the basic tenets, whether they think drinking is sinful or the sabbath is Saturday are kind of irrelevant. I'm puzzled by formal confession or the insistence on celibate priests in Catholic beliefs for instance. But I don't think Catholics are eternally damned for either, even assuming such a judgement was mine to make.

But oddly, I don't hear these discussion about orthodox Jews who so far as I understand believe the 'every word' tenet. I don't hear it about fanatic Islamic people ready to kill and die for their faith. I don't hear the historical revisionism around Christianity used against Hindu or Taoist faiths.

So why is it that atheists and liberals are so fearful of Christianity? Why the constant attacks on any expression of the dominant faith in this country in public? Someone on the Stranger wrote a collumn execrating the singing of God Bless America at ballgames for goodness sake. That's the level of sheer bigoted hatred for a fairly benign religion the left often shows. And I have to admit to being very puzzled by it.

88
Ken and Lissa,

There is a key difference between electing those whose values the majority shares which happen to be Christian and violating the doctrine of Separation of Church and State. Such an elected representative can pray in public, or invoke Allahs' or Vishnus' blessing without violating anyones rights. If he or she loses the next election on account of it, there's your remedy.

An elected representative can express a value in voting for or against legislation funding Planned Parenthood and that value can be Christian, pagan, atheist or what have you.

That representative can't form an official Church of the United States of America, or pass a law that all schoolchildren must pray to Allah 5 times daily. The Supreme Court has fairly consistently ruled within a strict interpretation of this doctrine, which is good. I don't wish to be forced to be atheist, or Buddhist. And I don't wish to force my faith on anyone else.
89
Why did the boys just stand around for the mauling? Were they in an orderly line and step forward when one of the bears called out "next"?Seems to me there was plenty of opportunity to split.
90
81
Goldy you ignorant cunt Paul explained it in Hebrews

"Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

91
288: Answer the questions I actually asked you.

Where are your citations that Goldy has quoted Marx and/or Lenin in support of his political views?
And are you coming to the Vermillion on Wednesday to prove that you can cash the checks your mouth continues to write?

When and if any other religion reaches the cultural supremacy enjoyed by Christianity in this country which allows its adherents the freedom to bully through legislation those who do not share their faith, I will be right there denouncing said religion be it Islam, Hindu or Zoroaster. For, just as would object to having to pray to Mecca five times a day in school, so do I object to the common invocation of the Christian Deity in our schools as well, which, for all intents a purposes, supports the notion that indeed, despite what you say, we do have an official church in this country. And it ain't Taoism. And it ain't right.
92
That would be "@88"
93
When you demand Goldsteins cites for Christians using the Bible to support public policy, I'll worry about your demand for me to do so.

You're still confusing the popular expression of values you don't share with an official church. (Calling the majority expression of values and beliefs in the public sphere bullying is mere abuse, unworthy of response.) I'm sorry that progressive values are so far out of the mainstream that you feel put upon by the majority.

You have 3 choices. Move somewhere your values are mainstream. Accept the will of the majority within Constitutional constraints. Or whinge on about the fictional evils of the Christian church. The first two have some chance of constructive consequences. This doesn't stop you folks from choosing the last, but you can lead a horse to water....
94
@84: Yes, and if Goldy quotes something you don't like on a website operated by the newspaper that he works for, you can leave the website.
@87: When a religion tries to impose itself on a country that prides itself on freedom of religion and separation of church and state, we push back against it. I believe that it is my duty to follow the Ten Commandments (along with the other 603), but I'll stand up and fight against any effort to put a copy of them in front of a courthouse.
@88: If a law is passed based explicitly on religious doctrine, that counts as an endorsement of that religion. If Congress were to ban the consumption of shellfish, citing only Leviticus as a reason, would you not consider that an affirmation of Judaic law by our government?
@90: So you're taking Paul's word over Jesus's? Wow, that's some pretty bad theology right there. One, you're indicating that the Almighty isn't eternally faithful, and that any covenant He may make with His peoples can't actually be taken to the bank. You're also saying that it is wiser to trust in the words of a priest than to trust in the words of God (which fits in pretty nicely with Christianity in general).
95
Aside to @72 about an "edited Bible":

Thomas Jefferson actually did this with the first four books of the New Testament, now called The Jefferson Bible:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_b…

Interesting stuff.
96
@88: Oh and further Seattleblues, a good example of to what I, and other here, object would be the governor of the state of Texas organizing an event which exhorts our nation to call upon Jesus Christ as our only hope. Please cite an example of any other governor doing similar in the name of Allah, Vishnu, or Buddha. Because if what Governor Perry is doing ain't state sponsored religion, I don't know what is.
97
@93: Where has Goldy claimed that politicians are citing Christian literature as justification for laws without citing his examples?
Give Lissa her answer, you weasel, before this turns into a whole bunch of back-and-forth ">implying".
98
ag·nos·tic/agˈnästik/
Noun: A person who believes that nothing is known or can be known of the existence or nature of God or of anything beyond material phenomena; a person who claims neither faith nor disbelief in God.

Again, not a closet atheist according to the dictionary definition.

And have another friend who is a research bio chemist, who has explained the science for the spiritual experiences I've had.

(As in explained -- not explained away.)

But I was an English major, so the explanation was above my head :)

But the dogmatic argument that neither my experience nor beliefs -- nor my science guy friends' knowledge -- are valid proves one thing: atheists can be as dogmatic as any other cult devotee.

99
@93: Are you, or are you not, coming to Vermillion on Wednesday? You bring your copies of the Bible and the Constitution, and I will bring mine. I am a small boned, middle aged lady, what could you possibly fear from the likes of me?
100
@96

Which is why we have courts and elections. We can hold those who choose such alleged actions to account.

Or you can lie about the faith a majority of Americans espouse. You can attack the social values of that majority based solely on your hatred of their faith. You can re-write history to reflect a malign Christianity as the rule it never was rather than the exception it was in fact.

Show me any group of human beings religious or secular, and I'll show you a bell curve of jerks to saints, with the majority being somewhere in the middle trying their best.

Why Christianity should be an exception to this confuses me. It's the one faith I know of that actually courts the jerks, points out the jerkiness in all of us and suggests a remedy for those who wish it. That it has it's share and maybe more of jerks is hardly surprising.
101
@87 - The reason us liberals are always attacking Christianity is because Christians are always attacking us. They are always telling us we can't have abortions or pornography or premarital sex or gay sex, that we have to cater to their sensitivities by saying "Merry Christmas" and not "Happy Holidays" and not taking the lord's name in vain and not questioning the veracity of their stupid ideas, that we have to allow unscientific crap into our science curricula because they hate evolution, etc, etc.

And we hate it. We hate being told that we have to bow down before their stupid rules because they think their stupid old book is the word of God. We don't see prophets, just a bunch of douchebags invoking an imaginary sky friend to legitimize their archaic prejudices. We are sick to death of being attacked and we are just fighting back. We leave alone, for the most part, many sects that are nuttier than you, because they keep to themselves and leave us the fuck alone. Get off our case and maybe we'll leave you alone too.
102
@100: Thank you for admitting that you are a jerk. Now, are you coming to Vermillion on Wednesday or not? We can discuss the tyranny of the majority and the role of government in protecting those of a minority view from said tyranny.
103
Dear Bible Study - is it ok to stop stoning people for eating pork, or should I let one of my mistresses, wives, or concubines perform this sacred duty for me during Torsh study?
104
Just because Elisha was a little tough on teenage hooligans who tease his bald head - sheesh! There is an apology of an article trying to defend this at http://www.christiancourier.com/articles… where the writer concludes that the youths "likely were idolaters". Fair enough then. Being eaten by bears is too good for them, I say.
105
Are they Golden Bears or Brown Bears?

    Please wait...

    and remember to be decent to everyone
    all of the time.

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