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There was an older man.
What is the likelihood that that man had been grooming Clementi since he was a young teenager?
And why is not more of the press asking this question?
Let's find out who this person was.
Sure there are accomplices and mitigating factors but this is an opportunity to send a message about bullying (and what they did is so much more than bullying). If anyone ever deserved to be sacrificed for the sins of their culture it is these two.
Luckily it was in the most commented.
I found it interesting that a friend of the guy who did the broadcasting said that he wasn't homophobic, that he would have done the same thing if it had been a girl.
The one word that kept being used about Tyler is that he was "shy." The facebook post that "outed" him ended with "yay." I can't shake the feeling that his roommate was happy that Tyler had an honest sexual experience. That his shyness was founded in our culture (and as you say probably his family) anti-gay bias, and his roommate was happy for him and "outed" him for his own good -- since he wasn't homophobic, he couldn't understand Tyler being in the closet. Wrong wrong wrong, but I can't help feeling like the roommate did what he did out of love for Tyler, not hatred.
Like you say, we need more information.
If I am right, we need to be kinder to those two college kids. They were stupid. And they will carry the price of Tyler's suicide the rest of their lives. I hope they can find some way to forgive themselves.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/10/2/….
That being said, the other boy was not "outed" at the same level as Tyler was he? I didn't see the video. Has anyone in the press? Was the other boy visible in a way that he could be identified if people didn't already know him? Were either of the boys' faces visible in the video?
Did Tyler's roommate know who the other boy was? To me, these are all facts material to Tyler's reaction vis a vis the other boy. It isn't just the fact of the unauthorized taping. It's the broadcast of his activities over the roommate's Twitter feed. "My roommate is in our room making out with a dude." Everyone on the hall (and probably in the dorm) can easily determine who the roommate making out with the dude is. The dude retains a bit more anonymity (at least in the short run). If Tyler doesn't kill himself, probably the whole thing fades. Maybe nobody ever is clear who he is, especially if he doesn't live in that dorm.
End result: The invasion against his privacy is not nearly as profound. He's more anonymous. He doesn't have to bear the guilt/shame that he brought another person into a space that was supposed to be safe and private (Tyler's room) and put this person in a position to have his privacy violated. If my roommate did that to me, I'd feel terrible and embarrassed for the exposure, but I'd also carry shame and guilt about bring my sex partner into that situation. I brought them to my room and this is what happened. I was betrayed by my roommate and in the process I betrayed my partner.
Is that perhaps an irrational feeling. Would/should my partner forgive me for something that was clearly outside my control? Yes. But in the moment, as one confronts the act of moving forward past the experience and dealing with the people, that's a lot to carry.
The other boy may well have been more healthy mentally from the start. But I think it's important to acknowledge that the other boy does not carry quite the same burden coming out of the experience. At least as I see it.
Just a usual DS ass-kissing post, I suppose, but really, this is an important point to make.
I agree with the call for looking at the whole situation: Clementi didn't complete suicide in a vacuum. Suicide is complicated, and other contributing factors are likely.
However, Clementi probably would not have completed suicide as he did if his roommates had not targeted him the way they did. When a crime is committed, the perpetrator is responsible for whatever harm they bring to the victim through the perpetrator's illegal/culpable action. If a perp assaults someone and the victim dies, it's murder (maybe manslaughter depending on the circumstances) even if the perp didn't set out to kill the victim. The perp caused the death of the victim. Culpability is not generally significantly reduced (maybe from murder to manslaughter in some cases) when some victims have preexisting vulnerabilities or ailments that may have made the victim more likely to die than others from equivalent assaults.
This sort of "mob mentality" is going to make people think twice before they take actions similar to those taken by Ravi and Wei. What really pisses me off is that there hasn't been a similar INTERNATIONAL "mob" going after the school and football organization who failed to protect the male cheerleader whose arm was broken by bullies. Or the countless other school officials, parents, and teachers who have failed to protect the victims of bullying.
We need this kind of "mob mentality" more often - it is the only way these people are going to change their behavior. Laws and civility have been failing to change it for decades.
This whole thing is pathetic and sad. Tyler overreacted. I feel for his roommates, who are going to have to deal with this forever.
At least for now, maybe it would be a good idea to lay off the family? I have seen nothing about what they were like. It's certainly POSSIBLE that they weren't the loving, supportive family one would hope for, but I've really seen no clear evidence, one way or the other. Speculating about them seems particularly cruel.
The students who spied on Clementi are another story.
I agree that the students who spied on him and broadcast his sexual encounter without his permission are almost surely not the only cause of his suicide, but they are not just foolish teenagers.
I utterly loathe this tendency we have developed to infantilize young adults, even teenagers. Yes, yes, brain development continues into the 20s, but it doesn't take a tremendous amount of sophistication to understand that recording a person's intimate encounters--no matter whom they are with--without that person's consent is WRONG. It is unethical. It is immoral. Anyone with even a modicum of empathy would be able to grasp that he or she would not like to experience it and, therefore, he or she should not do it. We expect children to be able to grasp this level of basic reasoning and humanity, to have a sense of right and wrong and to act accordingly.
I want to see these students get at least SOME prison sentence, even if Clementi had not killed himself because, regardless of his response, their actions were malicious and inexcusable. I am so tired of hearing this wasn't really who they were, that they were good people, blah, blah, blah. This is what they DID. This IS who they are. Actions speak louder than words.
If they were mature enough and smart enough to get into college, they SHOULD have been able to use enough basic logic to foresee that someone would be hurt by this and if they had any decency, they should have not done it. And now they should be punished, not because of what Clementi did, but because of what they did.
I absolutely agree with this. I'd also point out that we have no idea what's happened to the other guy. For all we know he has killed himself, so let's not jump to conclusions.
That is ridiculous. The magnitude of what they did is such that I would say regardless of the frequency with which we are seeing suicides lately that Tyler would still be alive and could be for along time, perhaps until old age, had it not been for these two.
After all isn't college where it is supposed to get better?
I doubt tyler would've made it to old age. He killed himself over spilt milk. There are those of us that came out much younger, and in a much nastier culture. This was not that big of a deal. It's a tragedy, but it's mostly tyler's bad.
That said: these weren't ten-year-olds in the playground. They were in college, and old enough to fucking know better. I remember my mental processes at eighteen - and fifteen and twelve for that matter - and believe me, when I was being bitchy and manipulative, it was with full knowledge of my bitchiness and manipulation."They would have done it too if they could have!" is not an excuse a rational human being thinks to provide. They took advantage of what they thought was a society that would support their homophobia - and this mob response is precisely what will deter the next three idiots who get this bright idea after too many drinks at the pub.
Also, @6 - dude, that's a leap of logic you must have needed seven-league boots for. WTF?
Should they be punished for what they did? Absolutely. But treating assholes as if they're murderers isn't just.
Finally, what if the outting was not the cause of him jumping? Maybe the pressure of college, being expected to be the perfect son, and musician, maybe it was clinical depression?
Finally, what if the outting was not the cause of him jumping? Maybe the pressure of college, being expected to be the perfect son, and musician, maybe it was clinical depression?
And to take it further: Homophobic culture makes people sick, stupid and dangerous. It's toxic. It would be good to eradicate the disease without killing the hosts.
Not that pummeling a few bigots wouldn't make us feel better...
Logically, if you look at all the LGBT people in the country and compare the fraction who have been brutalized in some way and fraction of those that commit suicide in adolescence, it can't just be the environment that is causing the problem. Not all LGBT adolescents are alike - some have greater resilience, some are more impulsive, some are mentally ill.
The video broadcasting sounds like a crime of stupidity, committed by some kids who probably have their own difficulties with impulse control. Unfortunately, once you are over 18, the consequences can be pretty bad.
They could not have reasonably predicted that suicide would be the outcome so manslaughter charges wouldn't be appropriate. However if I were on a civil jury hearing a case brought by Tyler's parents against the two students, I would agree they have some culpability.
Still, Tylers posts make it sound like other than the spying, he got along with his roommate well enough, and wasn't feeling harassed by him.
So who was making his life so miserable he had to end it? Someone's guilty, and I don't think the roommate and the girl down the hall deserve all the credit.
The fact that the other boy (or man) didn't commit suicide means nothing. If half the prisoners at Guantanamo committed suicide, would we say the torture was not a primary cause because half of them didn't?
The perpetrators should not be considered murderers, but their actions should be taken very seriously as the immediate cause of what happened. Holding them responsible is not a cover-up for all the other bad things that happened in Tyler's past.
And finally: Dan? Get some sleep.
While I agree 100% that the people who condemn homosexuality contributed to this young man's death even if they never met him (by contributing to an society that tells gay kids they are evil for being gay), but . . .
I was sexually abused by my father. I suffered from severe depression, PTSD, and cyclothymia. I was suicidal for many years. My sister had a psychotic break, but she was not suicidal (or at least not to the degree that I was). Two people can have very different reactions to the same event, even they were in similar circumstances (like my sister and I were).
No. Just......no.
And yeah, I do think, given how shy Tyler was, his roommate would have broadcast him with a woman.
If you really let in the idea that his roommate WAS NOT AT ALL HOMOPHOBIC, then you have to come up with another reason for why he broadcast the encounter.
And really, that is behind all these comments here -- you are all assuming that the roommate was homophobic.
He could have been a stupid teenager who, having been brought up in a video world with a new view of personal boundaries, made a huge huge mistake.
As I said originally -- and as Dan said -- we need more information.
I personally think it is possible that the roommate wasn't homophobic. Who thought it was no big deal that Tyler was kissing a guy.
Call me naive. That is the world I hope we get to -- that is no big deal when two guys kiss.
And it is a happy day, when a shy person, away from home for the first time, starts to blossom into the fullness of his being.
Isn't that what we hear over and over and over again in these It Gets Better videos? Wait until you get to college! Things are different there!
Ravi was a jerk and invasive.
He may also not have been homophobic.
Let's find out before we crucify him, shall we?
I read the posts by Tyler too and I came to a much different conclusion than you. He was applying to get his room changed so he could get away from his roommate although he was concerned, both, that his new roommate would be worse or that he would be refused the permission to move at all. The posts do sound less than frantic, not obviously suicidal, but typing a few lines on an anonymous posting site could possibly come off as less serious than they truly are. Could it be he was practiced in pretending that everything was alright? I was in HS and early in college (with family and friends) but it just isn't sustainable.
Having a private sex scene streamed on skype is not nearly as terrible as it could have been. Unfortunately, this won't be the first or last case of unauthorized video or photo being shared with strangers or friends online. Most of us live through it and learn to watch for webcams. Heck, there have been SCHOOLS spying on their students this way, and they aren't being prosecuted.
This sort of spying is wrong and invasive and hopefully illegal, but it isn't murder.
"it doesn't take a tremendous amount of sophistication to understand that recording a person's intimate encounters--no matter whom they are with--without that person's consent is WRONG. It is unethical. It is immoral. Anyone with even a modicum of empathy would be able to grasp that he or she would not like to experience it and, therefore, he or she should not do it.......... If they were mature enough and smart enough to get into college, they SHOULD have been able to use enough basic logic to foresee that someone would be hurt..."
Something is very wrong in our culture that inures these young people to the effects of their disgustingly insensitive actions.
Maybe someday this distinction will cease to be meaningful. That'll probably be a good day, when the story doesn't revolve around sexual orientation and it's just "my roommate is having sex in our room right now and I'm playing a prank by filming it and broadcasting it for people to see."
That's a prank with a pretty long history. Even back in the 1980s when I was in college there were stories about Frat brothers hiding in the closet of another brother's room and watching and videotaping that brother having sex with some girl. Then the brothers would watch the tapes together and award a brother the cocksman of the month award.
I have no idea if these stories were myth or fact. But if they were in people's imaginations, there's a good chance somebody was doing it. I'm sure the girls involved in this weren't too psyched if they found out it was happening. But pre-internet, how far can it go? It's college. Young heterosexuals have a lot of sex in college. Good clean horseplay, right? It's like something out of Porky's or American Pie.
But that doesn't absolve people from responsibility for understanding the implications of their actions. If you are 18 years old, you're old enough that you should get that, in our present cultural context, filming a man and a woman and filming a same sex couple isn't the same "prank," in terms of how the story may play after the fact. Do these folks deserve a manslaughter conviction? I'll leave that to the courts (probably it won't go that far). Do they deserve a harsh punishment? Yes, I think they do. Any punishment that doesn't involve at least some jail time will be a disappointment.
I agree, the postings from an anonymous site do not give much of a clue to his state of mind. When he wrote that other than the spying, Ravi was "ok", it could mean anything. Ravi could have simply never offered a threat of physical violence, and therefore been a nice change... or he could have been neutral or even supportive except for the spying.
We don't get to know. We're too far removed from the situation. There could be a pattern of harassment from Ravi, or it could be that Ravi was too naive to be aware of the pattern of harassment from other people and was just being college freshman stupid.
The words of Kevin Hines one of the few people to survive a Golden Gate jump should be posted in numerous places on every bridge...
"I'll tell you what I can't get out of my head. It's watching my hands come off that railing and thinking to myself, My God, what have I just done? Because I know that almost everyone else who's gone off that bridge, they had that exact same thought at that moment. All of a sudden, they didn't want to die, but it was too late."
I agree there's prob more to this and R and M's actions may well have been the straw that broke the camel's back. That doesn't mean they shouldn't be punished harshly.
Dan, you're becoming the Glenn Beck of the "progressives."
I find #39's comment absolutely stunning:
"Having a private sex scene streamed on skype is not nearly as terrible as it could have been."
Then I hope you're the only kind of person it happens to! I can understand a heterosexual having their sex encounters broadcast live being a reason why they'd kill themselves.
"Most of us live through it and learn to watch for webcams."
Glad we're not friends. I would never be able to visit your house or feel safe around you.
"Heck, there have been SCHOOLS spying on their students this way, and they aren't being prosecuted."
Perhaps they should be.
this is typical Dan "logic." can't you go back to just patting yourself on the back for the "it gets better" videos and stop trying to think?
BTW, from 9 up there, the fact that in his posts Tyler seemed to "take it in stride" at first means nothing. An emotional shock this big can produce numbness at first, as a defense mechanism, with the full horror taking hours or days to sink in.
The whole thesis is that once you get out of high school and into college, you leave that homophobic harassment behind. If Tyler was bullied in high school, he might have felt profound relief at moving into the Rutgers dorm, with all that behind him. To find that it was not behind him, that his own roommate had engineered his humiliation on an epic scale, well.....
God damn, this hurts.
The long and short is that we have to find ways to get LGBT kids safe in school without threatening jail time for anyone that makes fun of them.
And just to add, as an educator, it is a heck of a lot harder to protect kids than non-educators think. It doesn't mean we don't care. I care. I care a lot. But I'm a teacher, not a miracle worker. If I could magically sow the seeds of human kindness and stop kids from being cruel to each other, don't you think I would do that? Now, maybe Tyler's teachers wouldn't, but before you throw around those kind of assumptions, try to have some facts to back them up.
"THE VIRGINITY HIT movie - a comedy about three pals documenting the progress of their socially-awkward friend, who tries desperately to lose his virginity."
This whole thing is the plot of this movie -- except Tyler is gay.
I stand by what I have been saying -- this isn't a case of homophobia bullying.
I would bet $5 it isn't homophobia -- and I only bet a $1 when I am very very sure of something.
It is a case of stupid college "pranks" that aren't funny. Whether you are straight or gay.
Which goes back to Dan's original post. That it was what happened to Tyler before that night that led him to jump.
We need more information.
"A gay freshman at Rutgers University is believed to have committed suicide—he may have jumped off a bridge, no body has been found—after his roommate outed him in THE MOST BRUTAL WAY POSSIBLE"
then innocently observes that "A mob mentality has set in. People are calling for the heads of the two Rutgers students..."
what a fuck.
And the proof that this incident was ANTI-GAY is just what again?
Society ignoring what a deadly lifestyle homosexuality is,
how soul sucking it is,
how totally reamed out it leaves its victims,
how desperate and hopeless they become-
that's a story you will never hear.
IT'S A COVERUP......
Obama is KILLING GAY CHILDREN!
now, Dan, do you agree with the rightwingnuts who ARE TRYING TO KILL OBAMA?
Dan on the Road to Damascus.....
Dan, do you know ANY of Tyler's teachers?
Even one?
Dan, do you know ANY of Tyler's school administrators?
Even one?
Dan, do you know ANY of Tyler's elementary, middle or high school classmates?
Even one?
Dan, do you know anyone of Tyler's family?
ANYONE?
You make vicious accusations based on NOTHING.
You are a fetid smear of shit staining the American conversation.
OBAMA DID!
grab your ropes! we're heading to DC....
The distraught parents of the Rutgers freshman who committed suicide after his gay hookup was streamed live on the Internet broke their silence yesterday, saying they hope their son's death serves as a wake-up call.
"Regardless of legal outcomes, our hope is that our family's personal tragedy will serve as a call for compassion, empathy and human dignity," Joe and Jane Clementi said in a statement.
That emotional wish came as news broke that their son's roommate, Dharun Ravi, had outed Clementi as "gay" in an online posting a month before Ravi allegedly cyber-spied on Clementi's Sept. 19 make-out session.
Ravi's Twitter posting could help prosecutors charge him with bias crimes.
Clementi, 18, jumped off the George Washington Bridge on Sept. 22 after learning Ravi had remotely accessed a Web cam in their dorm room from the room of fellow freshman Molly Wei.
Ravi and Wei, both 18, were busted earlier this week on charges of invading Clementi's privacy, and the dead man's Ridgewood, NJ, family has received a massive wave of public sympathy.
"Needless to say, public attention has been intense," Clementi's family said in their statement. "The outpouring of emotion and support from our friends, community and family -- and from people across the country -- has been humbling and deeply moving."
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/rutge…
So you admit you and your ilk are trying to kill Obama. Wow.... Too bad ISP addresses can't be as snarky as anonymous 'names'.
Here is the reason Tyler jumped: If you read the timeline very carefully (including all of Tyler's messages on JustUsBoys), there was a HUGE amount of time after he told both the R.A. and two Administrators about the sex spycam. Now think about it. If a woman had made such a report, the police would have entered the dorm with guns drawn five minutes later. Yet in Tyler's case, there was somewhere between 14-24hrs before he made that report and then committed suicide. I'm not talking about the change of roommate request form. I'm talking about when he reported the sex crime.
The reason the perpetrators felt so casual about tweeting and filming the encounters testifies to the homophobic environment in that dorm. Immediately after the suicide, some media were interviewing Tyler's dormates (before everyone clammed up). Those initial interviews always reflected a lot of homophobia. Some of the kids looked totally unfazed and were saying they knew Tyler was gay because of the way he looked. One girl in particular was extremely homophobic in her remarks. I really hope people don't go overboard in now downplaying the whole thing. No, Dharun and Molly are not murderers. But they sure as shit aren't innocent and were definitely homophobic. The R.A. and the Administrators need to be checked out very closely too. But the sad reality is that homophobia saturates the ether - so when a vicious death like this happens, the homophobia can also magically evaporate and hide. If there was just one courageous gay positive kid in that dorm who was willing to come forward with the real truth, we would be hearing a lot different story in the media.
Most likely yes. In the case of Asher Brown, I first heard that he had told his stepfather he was gay and the father accepted him. But later I saw the mother and father on TV and could tell that didn't exactly happen. When the father was asked specifically about that, he said something like "I told him he would be ok". Hello? That is not embracing someone with acceptance. Later I did a Google and found out that the parents run some kind of Christian ministry (even though some reported he had been raised Buddhist). Remember, people that were not outright as hateful as Fred Phelps, are now going to blend in with the crowd and claim to have been non-judgmental and loving. The only people who really know are the silent witnesses to the pervasive homophobia around all these kids (tv news, preachers, etc). It's like a huge fog of homophobia and hard to pin down to just one cause.
1.) Ravi and Wei broadcasted another person's sexual encounter
2.) Tyler was gay
Fact 1.) itself is a sin, no matter what sexuality the victims had and regardless of whether or not he/she has commit suicide.
And in the background of this internationally interested case (I'm Japanese who has known of this tragedy by Yahoo Japan), there's a fact that Tyler was gay.
Sex tape alone can kill people. I wonder if I were broadcasted naked and having sex, people commenting on it etc... Knowing it, I won't be able to go out anymore. It's a horrible experience regardless of sexuality.
But at the same time, he was gay.
I wonder if Ravi and Wei did the same if they found Tyler acting cozy.
If yes, they're totally a-hole, pervert and a sort of porn distributer.
But if they did because it was homosexual, what they did is another guilt.
Because in that case they might have thought the scene of gay roommate would attract others attention, and that's why they used twitter and facebook to build up an audience.
So, I think the fact of being broadcasted own sex life did kill Tyler, but I agree with Dan's principle in a way.
If it were the world where people don't make fun of LGBT or make sin of LGBT, those two students would've not come up with the idea of streaming, and Tyler would've not chosen the extreme way of sorrow.
And yes, there was another boy. He might have said something cruel with the anger upon noticing the exposure.
Or Tyler might have heard a rumor that he was afraid to get because of what his roommate had done.
Or he was afraid to be known by his parents.
In the back of any presumption for his motive of suicide, there's always the current circumstance against gay.
And we don't know much about his last 3 days.
So even though what the two idiots did to Tyler cocked the hammer, they are not necessarily the ones who pulled the trigger. Or the reverse.
Ravi and Wei should be punished, but more than accusing and digging into those two young students, we should take his death as a message to think of today's moral.
P.S. After I read the news in Japanese, I decided to read the American news source linked below of the article, then watch a streaming news where Dan was interviewed.
There I got to know his "it gets better project" which I found wonderful, then finally arrived here at The Stranger. This is the good part of internet.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2008/08/…
REV. WARREN: Define marriage.
SEN. OBAMA: I believe that marriage is the union between a man and a woman. (Applause.) Now, for me as a Christian, it's also a sacred union. You know, God's in the mix. (Applause.)
REV. WARREN: Would you support a constitutional amendment with that definition?
SEN. OBAMA: No, I would not.
REV. WARREN: Why not?
SEN. OBAMA: (Applause.) Because historically, we have not defined marriage in our Constitution. It's been a matter of state law that has been our tradition. Now, I mean, let's break it down. The reason that people think there needs to be a constitutional amendment, some people believe, is because of the concern about same-sex marriage. I am not somebody who promotes same-sex marriage, but I do believe in civil unions. I do believe that we should not -- that for gay partners to want to visit each other in a hospital, for the state to say, you know what, that's all right, I don't think in any way inhibits my core beliefs about what marriage are.
I think my faith is strong enough and my marriage is strong enough that I can afford those civil rights to others, even if I have a different perspective or a different view. (Applause.)
" Some of the kids looked totally unfazed and were saying they knew Tyler was gay because of the way he looked."
oh my....
and how often has Dan Savage and Slog brayed on about their Gaydar and some creep pastor?
"And like all coverups, culpability goes straight to the top."
"President Barack Obama is responsible for the death of Tyler Clementi and HUNDREDS of other Gay children."
"Obama is a MASS MURDERER."
"He Must Be STOPPED! By any means necessary....."
The record here proves that.
Suddenly it matters when one of your own is afflicted.
The act of unlawfully killing another human being unintentionally.
Most unintentional killings are not murder but involuntary manslaughter. The absence of the element of intent is the key distinguishing factor between voluntary and involuntary manslaughter. In most states involuntary manslaughter results from an improper use of reasonable care or skill while performing a legal act, or while committing an act that is unlawful but not felonious.
If they are prosecuted in accordance with the legal definition, Ravi and Wei can be charged with involuntary manslaughter. If the handcuffs fit then they should be wearing them. And what about the bullies that taunted Billy and Cody and Asher and Seth? Not all of the tormenters were underage. If the legal definition shouldn't be applied to these cases, then exactly what set of circumstances could warrant such charges? How far is too far before the law is applied equally to all?
You're right Dan that there needs to be a broader reckoning, we need answers, things have to change and there are other accomplices out there. But how far back are you going to go to try and place blame? To the doctor that slapped their butt when they were born?
My position has and always will be that I want the law to apply to Ravi and Wei as I expect it should be applied to me, you and anyone else. And if that seems like a mob mentality to some, then que sera sera. The law is the law is the law, whether you're black and white, red striped or pink with purple polka dots.
@82: Geezer alert!
Charge the two voyeurs with voyeurism... that's enough. Their lives have been ruined. I'm not sad and I wish them all the torment their small minds can take but just being shown on the internet to a few people kissing a guy isn't enough to make him kill himself. That poor kid is a victim of a carelessly homophobic culture.
Charge the two voyeurs with voyeurism... that's enough. Their lives have been ruined. I'm not sad and I wish them all the torment their small minds can take but just being shown on the internet to a few people kissing a guy isn't enough to make him kill himself. That poor kid is a victim of a carelessly homophobic culture.
http://www.gracechurchnj.net/about_grace…
Still, I don't think these two kids should be absolved of blame. (Not that I think you're implying that.) What they did was still a serious invasion of privacy, and they should be brought to justice for that.
The legal definition I cited is from my brother-in-law, an attorney whose practice in Long Beach, California specializes in voluntary and involuntary vehicular manslaughter. Which is in fact different from constructive and criminally negligent manslaughter. According to my brother-in-law Ed, who I would trust with my life, the definition of involuntary manslaughter is largely the same whether the reference is from UCLA, Yale, New York U. or UC Berkeley, his Alma mater. There are however varying degrees of culpability from state to state.
So, there you have it. And best of luck at the Larry H. Parker School of Law. I fight for you!
Really? REALLY? They could not reasonably foresee that a painfully shy gay young man might be driven to suicidal despair by having his sex life violated and dragged out for their amusement?
REALLY?
'cause most people could have called that a potential consequence from a mile away. That would land squarely in the whole "reasonably foresee" area right there.
The charges against them have nothing to do with the fact that Tyler killed himself. They'd have gotten the same sentence for filming a straight roommate.
There are other culprits who share blame for Tyler's death, and in a just world they would also serve time; But just because we can't bring them to justice doesn't mean Ravi and Wei should be off the hook.
At some point after he become aware of his outing Tyler left the Rutgers Campus and made the hour+ ride to Bergen county where he had grow up and where his family lived. And it was there in Bergen county just about 11 miles from his hometown that he dropped himself off the bridge.
There were certainly plenty of places in NJ closer to Rutgers where a distraught youth could have ended his life. Why the ride back home?
Did he come home to tell his family about what had happened. Did it not go well?
All speculation I know, but as someone who knows the area the location of his suicide struck me as telling.
Who killed Tyler Cleminti? Tyler Clementi did, and I understand why. But nobody threw him off that bridge, they just treated him like shit.
Dan has the right perspective here. We should punish the guilty appropriately, and not use them as avatars for every cumulative cruelty that was inflicted on this boy by everyone else in his life. Right now, they are either grief-stricken, dumb with guilt, or pointing fingers.
Really? The guy who transmitted nude video of Erin Andrews was sentenced to 2.5 years, not 5 years. If Clementi's suicide is not a factor, and Clementi's sexual orientation is not a factor, then what separates that case from this one? Or is your argument that everyone should get 5 years, always?
I'm intrigued by @99's geography points. Based on the message boards, it does sound like Clementi was dealing with the video quite admirably. So he drives to where he grew up, possibly sees his family, possibly tells them about the video, and then jumps off a bridge?
Methinks the video was not the last straw.