Some members of the Christian clergy are intelligent, thoughtful people. Who knew?

Sharpen the blade on that mower, Dan. What am I saying, you guys have a 22 yo twink in bikini briefs do the mowing for you.

Thanks Dan. That's an important distinction many on the pro-gay-marriage side haven't been making.

I'm not a Christian of any stripe, but then I'm not gay, either. I can still support full civil rights for both groups.

You're plenty generous there Dan. So our Gen-X pastor is feeling a little unappreciated for believing that gay Americans should enjoy the same rights as all Americans. Hey, thanks for not actively persecuting the gays, but don't expect a big thank you, because that is literally the LEAST you can do. You want tolerance? You got it. I'm not out there trying to take your rights away. But don't expect a cookie or a bozo button.

The damage homophobes do to gay kids is what's truly infuriating - not how sneaky they are about it.

I've always thought this was your opinion, Dan. I'm glad to read that it hasn't changed. To me it would not matter if it did, though. Thank you for voicing it so clearly.

I love how he brings up Paul without irony.

As long as a person respects civil rights for all and can accept "Please shut up" in reply to trying to save me/my family, it's all good.

See that's what i was trying to say during the whole Donnie McClurkin bogus controversy. There's always going to be bunches of evangelicals who think homosex is immoral but increasingly, they will feel ok voting for pro-gay candidates and supporting civil equality. That's a good change!

I just feel sorry for any gay kids that have the misfortune of being born into the first quoted pastor's church. They get to look forward to a lifetime of self hatred and guilt, if they don't kill themselves in their teens.

Dude, selective biblical literalism fucking sucks.

It's not a sin if you believe in a loving and just god. Until these assholes believe that I have no interest in any association with them other than to drive right past their mega-churches.

It's your call, but the more "tolerant" guy sounds like someone who back in the 50s might say "I'm for Civil Rights, but I wouldn't want my daughter to marry one of them".

After a time. It's just not enough.

I've got all kinds of beefs with social conservatives and evangelicals. I think their position on marriage stinks. I think their demands to have the right to discriminate in the work force and elsewhere is repugnant. I think the way they have blatantly exploited and encouraged homophobia to reach their political goals speaks volumes about their so-called "morality."

I also think that the way evangelicals have often treated kids in their own families and churches who are coming to terms with their sexuality is heartless and cruel.

On that one last point, Marin would appear to agree. And has been speaking out about it not just at Pride but to other evangelicals. His message is primarily directed at them (he sure doesn't expect us to buy his book).

Maybe it's not perfection. But it is step—a tiny step perhaps but a step nevertheless—in the right direction.

So why shouldn't that be encouraged?

If they are entitled to their beliefs, then so am I. And I believe there is no such thing as sin. The bible is alot of primitive ignorance, myths and superstitions. And that religion is just another money grubbing con game that pulls in the big bucks by spreading hate. And it's long history of mass murder, plunder and rape should have made it illegal and repugnant to any decent human being.

I agree with you completely, Dan, and I would go a bit further as well.

You cut off the quote from the first pastor. He goes on to say

"And what do we get for it? "Sorry, that's not good enough. Not only must you allow us to live as every other citizen, but you must also believe in your heart that homosexuality isn't a sin." Really? What happened to all the talk of tolerance?"

What he doesn't get is that he's asking us to not only thank him for not actively oppressing us, or to agree that he has the right to his opinion, but that we have to agree that he's RIGHT about it, or we are being intolerant.

We don't. We don't have to "see he has a point." We don't have to "agree to disagree" as though we are admitting his view has some validity. (Any more than he has to.)

All we have to agree on is that we won't use these deeply held beliefs to deprive others of their equal rights.

I wonder if he would apply the same standard to politically powerful atheists who said "We'll stop attacking you, but you have to admit that we're right that your beliefs are all pure fantasy, or else you're being intolerant."

I don't give a flying fuck what they think is a sin. If you want me to think of you as a friend, don't stand up and tell me how important it is to you to tell me you think I'm going to hell. That's fuckin' rude, and not something that friends do.

So now Dan is to the right of SLOG readership. Interesting.

@ 16 - You are the brain police.

"I'm what most would consider a fairly conservative Evangelical Christian pastor."

Not any more.

And let the gay community shoot itself in the foot once again. You have members of a conservative religious group reaching out to you and you're going to spit in their eye? Recognize a potential ally when you see one!

Not to mention, drop the hypocrisy. If you want people to support your civil rights to exist *regardless* of their personal beliefs, then you can't turn around and demand they change their personal beliefs. It's hypocritical. I got news for ya, the church isn't going to change its opinion on homosexuals any more than it's going to change its opinion on baptism as a necessity.

But if the church is at least *willing* to fight on our side on the government level and at least be *willing* to apologize for its past actions towards gays and queer youths, then everyone needs to quit their bitching, be polite, and say "Thank you."

To me, all this whining of "I want the church to accept me" is a desperate cry for approval, which tells me a lot of gays and queers aren't yet comfortable with their sexuality. Doth thy protest too much and all that...

Claiming that one is a Christian and then turning a blind eye to what the Bible teaches us in order to be in communion with the Creator may get the praise and admiration of those who have shunned God from their lives and want to keep God out of all societal institutions but that doesn't mean that they're Christians, Evangelicals or representative of the faith of most in this nation. The after life is what awaits us but it is in the here and now that the work needs to be done (in order to serve as examples unto others) so that others may also come to know Christ and be saved. May the having no "beef" be extended to the majority of americans who respect and observe what the Bible teaches and not new-age idelogies.

Betty Bowers (aka "Loveschild") hath spoken. This thread is complete.

@22 So I guess you don't eat shellfish then?

@22, Not only is that cotton-polyester shirt you are wearing ugly, it is a sin!

@22: Luke 20:25 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which be Caesar's, and unto God the things which be God's."

Civil rights and marriage law are Caesar's laws, not God's laws. Leave them to Caesar.

You know I love you, Dan, but I have to disagree. Thinking adults can dismiss religious condemnations as the worthless claptrap they are. Gay kids trapped in religious families don't have that luxury. Any kid in that pastor's "church" is still gonna hear repeatedly that he's a worthless, damaged piece of shit from someone who is for unfathomable reasons held up as a community standard of moral authority.

It's hate. It's child abouse. It's wrong. ALWAYS. Anyone who puts mythology before the well-being of people in the real world is beneath contempt.

@22: "respect and observe what the Bible teaches and not new-age idelogies."
Yeah, "new-age idelogies" like banning divorce, praying before a carven idol of Jesus and a graven image of Mary, completely disposing of Kashrut, praying in the quotidian tongue rather than Hebrew or Greek or Latin, celebrating the Sabbath on Sunday instead of Caturday, and proselytizing to people of other religions...
You're no biblical purist at all Loveschild. Go rot in a sack.

I was the one whose comment got that "fairly conservative Evangelical Christian pastor's" panties in a wad because I said inregard to Marin's apology, "What I do know is that isn't what I think of as a sincere apology"
I guess I didn't explain my position clearly enough in regard to my take on Marin's so-called apology. Actually, in my opinion he and other evengelicals are quite entitled maintain their belief that gays are very sinful. They can even believe that we should all stand on our heads and wear pink tu-tus for all I care. I find the free exercise of religion and expression of opinion a truly beautiful thing about America and I would hate to think that anything I believe about this guy's sincerity should have any bearing on what he believes. Where I have a problem is the attempt to draw in the unsuspecting with this kind of obfuscation only to later tell them, "your behavior is still sinful; who you love and how you love is still abhorrent". My point is this, as a gay American, I just really am not not in a hurry to join a group that holds these kinds of opinions about my immutable self. Whether they are keeping it to themselves or shouting on the street corners like the Phelps clan, it just doesn't make me feel truly welcome, that's all. But hey, all you Biblical literalist, conservative, fundementalist, evangelicals out there, please do feel free to believe what you want and worship God in your own way to your hearts content, and I will do the same with a truly affirming church... they are out there.

@27 Exactly.

Fuck that shit. Allowing that kind of thinking to continue and spread will only continue to exacerbate the issue.

Dear Loveschild,

You're assumption that your's and your pastors take on the the Bible is revealing a lack of education on your part once again. Frankly, you keep embarrassing yourself.

1) Please educate yourself on differences amongst Bibles of different religious traditions within Christianity. Major differences exist between the Bibles of the following: Protestant, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox Christian, Oriental Orthodox Christian. Let us not forget that the Tanak cannot be confused with the Old Testaments of any of the above listed Christian traditions. It wouldn't hurt to remember that other religious groups commonly lumped in under the "Christian" label i.e. Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, etc. often have differing opinions

2) I suggest you educate yourself on the "Q". The "Q" predates the gospels and reveals them to have been written as part of a "school of thought" with the primary purpose of the its "members" agenda; to reaffirm the group's own perspective, and to rationalize reasons for their marginality. The premium reason for the gospels was the group's own existence.

3) Educate yourself on the evidence of interpolations in the the letters of Paul. Understand the letters of Paul are all copies, no originals, and none of them date earlier than 200 CE, nearly a century and a half after Paul's actual lived to write them. Become aware of the period of intense controversy within the church in which the Bible was canonized and that NUMEROUS variations exist among the surviving manuscripts: NO TWO of them read exactly the same. Educate yourself that evidence shows that: Hebrews, 1 Timothy, 2 Timothy, and Titus were NOT written by Paul and that it is very likely that Ephesians, Colossians, and 2 Thessalonians were not authored by Paul.

4) Educate yourself on church history. Learn that early church fathers, including Augustine, DID NOT teach that Jesus died for your sins and the sins of the world. You can thank Anslem Archbishop of Cantebury for the Theory of Substitution back in 1000s and the protestant reformers during the Reformation (1600s) for the Doctrine of Penal Substitution.

5) Educate yourself on the history of the church in premodern Christianized Europe and the undeniable proof, actual documents, of Catholic and Orthodox liturgies for same-sex unions.

I respectfully suggest that you educate yourself on all of the above, Google will be a life saver, before you start claiming you have the "truth" and proclaiming your tradition and it's interpretations are the "correct" ones. No-one has asked for you to evangelize them. In short, don't be a religious bully.

Sincerely,

kim

My super-conservative (but to my knowledge, non-Christian) cousin tried to use the "homosexuality is immoral" argument when we were talking about marriage equality recently. I told her that it's her right to believe that, but it's her personal belief and it has no place in the debate over equal rights. I totally won* the argument with the following: "Barring someone from being with their partner as they die alone in a hospital room is so much more immoral than anything they do in the bedroom ever could be."

* Well, as much as you can win an argument like this against someone willing to bring up the tired polygamy, incest, and bestiality arguments.

"Any kid in that pastor's "church" is still gonna hear repeatedly that he's a worthless, damaged piece of shit from someone who is for unfathomable reasons held up as a community standard of moral authority.

It's hate. It's child abouse. It's wrong. ALWAYS. Anyone who puts mythology before the well-being of people in the real world is beneath contempt."

Because you've been in that church to know what is preached, right? I'm sure you've shown up and taken notes to make a case with, right? Or not. Maybe you're every bit as judgmental and close-minded as you claim Christians are? I am that pastor that Dan quoted and I would never tell anyone on this earth that he or she is a worthless, damaged, piece of shit. We are all precious in God's eyes, rather we are trying to follow as best we can or rather we have no interest in following after God.

I do believe that homosexual behavior is sinful, as I wrote. But I also believe that obesity is a sin, that adultery is a sin, that lying and gossip are sins. Does saying that I think something is wrong/sinful automatically translate to me saying that someone who does any of those things are worthless or trash? Of course not, unless you're just very sensitive about anyone saying you're less than perfect.

I'm not called to bring condemnation. I'm called to live the best life I can, and to help lead those who are sharing in the experience as they walk in a similar direction. Having a view of what I believe is the 'way' to get to where we are heading doesn't really make me any different than any other human being who has beliefs.

For those who seem to think that I want a pat on the back for my views, I don't. Rather, I want you to understand that for those of us who stand in front of our congregations and Christian friends and argue on behalf of the gay community's right to enjoy civic equality, it doesn't help when gays, like some commenters on Sullivan's site, insist that they have some kind of thought-police type right to insist on what we can and can't believe.

Thanks to Dan for the response, too. Peace to you.

"Because you've been in that church to know what is preached, right?"

Most gays grow up Christian. Through my entire gay childhood, I knew that my Mother believed gays were going to hell. Even though the Church didn't spend lots of time on it, just knowing that in my faith being homosexuality was a sin was enough to make me feel like a damaged piece of shit kid. I worry about gay kids because of my own experience as a Christian. I'm not just assuming what gay kids in Church feel.

I can't not take it personally when people compare my loving 13-year-long relationship with adultery and obesity. Sins are sins because they're harmful actions. That's the accusation...that I'm harming someone or myself. I'm loving someone who loves me. That's not harmful.

That's great that some evangelical Christians can compromise and say gays and lesbians have a right to equality. Yay progress or whatever. But I don't forgive or even like people who think I'm a sinner for being gay. And since there are no thought-police I'm free to think that people who think homosexuality is a sin are sinning for thinking homosexuality is a sin. You get what you give.

Burnt offerings are wrong? .... I probably have one pissed off goat on the pyre in my backyard.

From http://www.chicagoreader.com/chicago/his…
Early in June, Michael Allen of Uptown Baptist Church wrote an open letter to area pastors calling on them to respond to the Gay Games. "Our gay and lesbian fellow citizens embody our own most extreme, most impassioned defiance of our Creator," he wrote, "who lovingly designed us in his own image, male and female. Our homosexual friends typify our own stiff-necked, fist-waving, God-cursing, me-loving selves."

This is the problem with evangelicals. For a large percentage of them it is not enough to think homosexuality is a sin, the see it quite literally as a slap in the face to that god of theirs. just leaving us alone is not an option. Many fell the same way about atheist, it is not a private matter to them it is a personal to their best buddy.

@36 Because of anti-gay preaching, some "very sensitive" gay kids are not going to live to see civic equality. But I guess you see that as just collateral damage from your need to share what you believe in your wisdom to be Divine Truth based on your infallible interpretation.

@36 I too know what is preached in fundementalist settings having been raised and confirmed in a Missouri Synod Lutheran church. I honestly don't know how I survived, being a very sensitive kid myself. Perhaps the catatonic state brought on by the self-loathing and the thought that I must be evil and therefore killing myself would only speed my trip to hell kept me alive until I finally heard a message of true love and acceptance.

Other sensitive children were not so lucky. A friend of mine from a different fundementalist sect lost her brother to suicide at sixteen from this kind of preaching. And to add insult to injury, the talk of their congregation was, "well he must've been influenced by satan to do such a thing". I hope you, evangelical preacher, wouldn't hold that same sentiment and I would also hope you would see the church's complicity in the matter, but you are free to believe what you want.

I'm sorry you are feeling all trodden upon by all these militant unfeeling gays, as they express their true frustration against "real" oppression and the "real" effect it's had on their lives and psyches. Please remember, though, that it is based on the presupposition that being gay is inherently 'sinful' that gay marriage is illegal in most places, that gay people are not allowed the protection from discrimination that the religious have been enjoying all along, that in Uganda capital punishment for being gay is being seriously considered for a law, that in Montana there is still a law on the books that makes gay relationships illegal and punishable by jailtime and a fine.

Every time a politician passes a law that makes gays less equal, every time some group of thugs beats a gay to a pulp, or worse, the rationale always harkens back to the message of the church. So go ahead and whine about 'thought police' whenever we point out the harm that that message has brought us, but I would ask you, "what do you really expect us to do? be grateful that y'all even allow us to exist? Buck it up and say, 'thank you sir(s), may I have another'?"

@43 Right, because when it comes to a boy's erections, who is he going to believe: you or his lying eyes? You've got the hotline to the Almighty in your head! P.S. Very few religious conservatives mouth the lie anymore that gay people can change. They just want us to suppress it and be celibate.

@43 Sexual orientation seems to be transient in a precious few individuals, but they are the exception and not the rule and certainly not a large enough percentage to lend credence to the proposition that all gays can change. If a person says they were once gay, but have somehow changed, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and take their word for it and honor their experience. But remember, far, far more do not have that experience in spite of the fact that they tried in ernest to not be gay. I would hope that the ex-gay movement would honor that experience in return. If you beat 'teh gay' yay for you, you just made your life a whole lot easier and won yourself that highly desirable hetero-normative privelege. But don't make the mistake of thinking that those who didn't make the switch weren't presented with the exact same incentive and even under the threat of hell, they could not change.

@ 37, 41, & 42 - With those tiny gay brains (TGB's) of yours, it's just so much easier to generalize and lash out than to actually listen to what someone says, isn't it?

"I'm sorry you are feeling all trodden upon by all these militant UNFEELING gays..."

Hmmm, gay SLOG commenters are "unfeeling" (as @ 42 admits), but the pastor seems to be a "feeling" person. PASTOR WINS!! It's another instance I've seen lately of one of those ol' "hateful" Christians being the more compassionate person than the atheist/agnostic/secular humanist cruelly berating them and mocking them ("Flying Spaghetti Monster") for their beliefs. WTF, people, I know it's the internet, but show a little decency!!

Pastor, I am a gay man who truly appreciates that you "get" the fundamental, Constitutional difference between belief and how civic life should be conducted in this country. You get an attaboy from me, even if you weren't fishing for one! And I must apologize to you for all of the hate spewed your way here and on Sullivan. And with all of the hurt caused in the world by so many other things that you would consider sinful, I suspect that you, following Christ's example, probably say little to nothing about homosexuality from the pulpit. I also suspect that there are quite a few other Christian clergymen who share your thoughtful stance; I would imagine that someone choosing the clergy as a vocation would have to be a thoughtful person, because being a preacher doesn't pay that great. Plus, you have to put up with whiny babies like this bunch, who can't let go of their pasts and move on.

Peace to you, sir.

@ 37 - "I'm free to think that people who think homosexuality is a sin are sinning for thinking homosexuality is a sin. You get what you give."

Hate for hate. How nice. Didn't someone once say something about turning the other cheek?

Of course, if you want a more modern, hipper, more "progressive" voice, look to Ghandi: "An eye for an eye makes everyone blind."

@ 37 again - "Yay progress or whatever"

Uh, isn't PROGRESS what this WHOLE FUCKING THING IS ABOUT, YOU NITWIT??? Evangelical Christian clergymen saying they think there should be marriage equality IS progress, however inadequate it might seem to your poor little oppressed self.

Oh, that's right, you want apologies. Lots of 'em. Written out in longhand, and notarized, no doubt.

@ Chris in Vancouver WA If they would stop fucking up gay kids, that would be apology enough.