Comments

1
I've been following this since Wikileaks began implying this was coming.

Many heads are going to roll over this one. It's much worse than I thought.
2
@1. "many heads are going to roll over this one"? Seriously? No one has been held to any account since Bush invaded Iraq, and you seriously think someone will be held to account? Have you been paying attention to anything?

3
@2 It's all proportionate to the amount of mainstream domestic news media coverage, and how ongoing it ends up being. Will heads roll in public? I seriously doubt it. Will this massive leak lead to all sorts of heads rolling behind the scenes? Yes, but not for the murders... for the leak.
4
Now consider how many times this has happened without a reporter as a victim to prompt a follow-up investigation.
5
If this is real, this is horrible. If this is another Zimmerman telegraph, woops.
6
Disgusting. However it is worth noting that American soldiers and our enemies have committed war crimes in every conflict ever. The important thing is to recognize that it happens and punish those who do it.
7
Never mind, I bet it's real.
8
Did you guys see the people walking around with AK-47s? I saw them. The cameras also looked like slings that can be used to carry weapons.

No doubt this is a horrible tragedy. But, I can see how it could have happened.
9
OK, I've watched the video. A few observations:

- The Apache pilot/gunner and whomever they were talking to seemed to think that at least one of the people in the group was armed (something that the text before the footage confirms).

- One of the group was also pointing something (a camera perhaps?) at the helo just as it went around a building. That person was crouched in such a way that they could be seen as taking cover while sighting in the helicopter (the audio says they gunner (or whoever was speaking) thought it was a rocket propelled grenade).

- They're probably in an area that had seen recent violence. That's an assumption based on two things. First, Baghdad in January 2007 was wracked by inter-sectarian fighting as local Sunni militias battled with Shia militias (mostly Sadrists). AQI used their positions in the belts around Baghdad to prepare IEDs and send them in to accelerate the violence (that is, to try to spur several rounds of intersectarian fighting). Second, the helicopter was probably in that area for a reason. Apaches are not abundant, and wouldn't be deployed to fly over quiet areas. It's not clear at all from this video, or the accompanying text, if there had been recent violence there, or reports of ongoing violence, but I'd wager there had been.

Based on those observations, I reach what will undoubtedly be a very unpopular conclusion: the Apache pilot and gunner made a terrible mistake -- but one that's defensible. It's easy to sit here three years after the fact looking at these pictures in the comfort of our desk chairs, already knowing the tragic outcome.

The Soldiers didn't know that day, and if they had known who was down there, they wouldn't have opened fire. I have to believe that, and I think most reasonable people would. The Apache crew didn't go out that day to hunt down some journalists, and I ask anyone who has seen that film to tell me why they believe any differently.

I'm not saying they did the right thing, but they did do an understandable thing. As an aside, the Army made this far worse by not releasing the film earlier. Bad news doesn't get better with age.

For those of you who think I'm some sort of Bushie, I'm not. I didn't agree with this war from the start, and have never voted for a Republican in my life. And, actually, I have actually served a tour there. It doesn't make me an expert in any sense, but I'd ask you to not vilify the Soldiers involved.
10
I think I'm actually not going to watch this, which is probably a first for me. Normally I just hit play and then regret it later...
11
@9 You bring up very good points. It is very hard to second guess the decisions of the guy after the fact when we are sitting at our comfortable desks without adrenaline pumping through our veins.
12
"And, actually, I have actually served a tour there."

Which is why your judgment on this matter is horribly flawed. This isn't a tragedy, it's an atrocity, and the people who participated in it should be tried and jailed.

There is absolutely nothing honorable or respectable about obliterating people from afar, then saying "It's their fault for bringing their kids to a battle" when you realize you attacked children. This is a video game to the Apache crew--just body parts flying around on a screen. Fuck them.
13
No military background, training or experience, so I don't know if the soldiers actually believed what they said they were seeing. In either case, footage like this should be the lead in to the 5 o'clock news every night, on every station. Tragedy or evil, America needs to see what goes on during "war".

It's like the Barbara Bush quote about wasting her "beautiful mind" on disgusting war images; it's too easy to dismiss if you can just ignore it.
14
A military recruiter called me last week. He said, "anyone can go to college and get a job, but it takes someone special to defend our country."
15
-weather or not some of the poeple did have real ak47 does not matter. they were walking very chilled along the road and there were no signs of them planning or executing an attack of any sort.

-the camera looks like an rpg only in the very first second where he looks around the corner. shortly after it is very clear its no an rpg and the guy should have recognised this and corrected his first assumption.

-there is absolutly no apology for denying the children quick medical treaty.

-the comments theese soldiers make on the radio make me sick just by listening to them alone.
16
-weather or not some of the poeple did have real ak47 does not matter. they were walking very chilled along the road and there were no signs of them planning or executing an attack of any sort.

-the camera looks like an rpg only in the very first second where he looks around the corner. shortly after it is very clear its no an rpg and the guy should have recognised this and corrected his first assumption.

-there is absolutly no apology for denying the children quick medical treaty.

-the comments theese soldiers make on the radio make me sick just by listening to them alone.
17
Agree with you 100%, Banna. That's one of the main reasons the Vietnam War was so unpopular - those images were all over the 6:00 news every fucking evening. It's also why the military is fighting so hard to keep these things out of the media now.

Yep, put it back on the teevee. Let everyone see how their trillions of taxpayer dollars are being spent.
18
@14, I hope you asked him to explain how the hell killing people in some Godforsaken country halfway around the world is "defending our country."
19
@12,

The ad hominum attack doesn't help make your point. It detracts from it.

My having been there does change my perspective, and you're free to judge the ways in which it distorts or clarifies it, but the simple fact of having served a tour doesn't automatically make it "horribly flawed", at least not in any way that I can understand. So, what's the causal connection between serving a tour in Iraq and having terribly flawed judgment on the subject?

Your point about killing people from afar not being honorable is interesting. Do you approve of killing people face-to-face as honorable? The implication of your statement is that US/Western/Counterinsurgent forces should only fight on the enemy's terms. What is it about doing it from a distance that you find dishonorable? Do you disapprove of artillery? Blockade? How about economic sanctions?
20
@14 -- "someone special" means "someone with a pulse, as long as you're straight", right?
21
On the topic of the vid, I fully understand how the soldiers involved could mistake gear and whatnot for weapons, and knowing the adrenaline that pumps in a situation like that I think the soldiers' general behavior is understandable (not all of it, but the shooting, yes). It is a war zone, after all.

What's not understandable or appropriate are the subsequent lies and coverup.
22
Even if you can defend the original firing upon the group the rules of engagement do not condone the firing upon people removing injured from the battlefield...
23
This video pisses me of, it`s not easy to understand why the US get enemies, the US is always in some kind of bullshit war. Ive been to the US a couple of times and i love it, but the government really fuck up time after time. What about starting using the money on the us people instead of war and killing?

Bush was an a..hole, and I really belive that Obama will do better for the US people.
24
"So, what's the causal connection between serving a tour in Iraq and having terribly flawed judgment on the subject?"

You've picked sides. You're on one team, and the people being slaughtered in this video are on another.

One can also assume that if you've 'served' in Iraq, you're blind to the fact that the whole damn situation is a perpetually unfolding war crime. I don't see how anyone could continue to participate in the occupation without having already deluded themselves to that fact.

Being over there, you've probably already bought into the false idea that it's 'us or them' and that spraying bullets into crowds of people is one of the 'necessary evils' of life in a war zone. So watching something like this makes you think 'mistake' instead of what it is--organized, premeditated murder.

I'm not implying that killing anyone in this scenario is honorable. There's no such thing as honor in what the US is doing over there. It's an impossibility. But doing it at a distance, with unimaginably powerful weapons, pushing a button and watching the carnage unfold onscreen is the epitome of dishonorable. It's also how 'mistakes' like this are made. ('mistakes', as though it would somehow be better if these were Iraqis defending their homeland.)

It's not my goal to call anyone names, but man, that's the reality of this situation. It's ugly, and I can't even possibly imagine what it'd be like to be an otherwise good person participating in it... But good intentions don't the dead back.
25
@9 & @11,

I was and am not an opponent of the war in Iraq. I'm though all for justice and righteous behavior and actions.

Did you choose to ignore all the comments to be heard and read during the video? There is not one moment during this footage were I get the feeling there is any kind of attempt to understand the situation on the ground before starting the massacre. Even more, you get the feeling that they are searching actively for a reason just to shoot. Some quotes:

Man down, injured and trying to move:
"Come on buddy.
All you gotta do is pick up a weapon."

Men trying to move the injured into the van. Awaiting permission to engage on the van:
"Come on, let us shoot!"

You would say that when you are up there in the Apache and the situation down there seems to be so relaxed, you would take more time to analyze the situation and the possible hostiles before opening fire like this. I really can not understand how you can watch this footage and not feel anger and disgust at the actions taken by the soldiers at it. Apparently taking the decision to kill a human being can be based on vague assumptions. You can not convince me that they had to make a fast decision, the situation was calm and they could had taken more time to be convinced of the necessity of the engagement. There are so many shocking and disgusting comments made by those soldiers that I'm puzzled how you two guys can come to the conclusion that this was "understandable".
26
@18 - yeah, it was a pretty long conversation, but he just gave me canned responses to anything i said. i mentioned the risk of getting raped, and he said, "i don't know who you've been talking to, but people say stuff like that because they're trying to give the military a bad name. you could get raped right here!" neat. i don't have to go halfway around the world to get raped. and when i talked about disagreeing with the war he kept saying, "not everyone has it in their heart to be a soldier." but he still kept trying to get me to come down to his recruitment office! i guess that's why we've been in iraq for 7 years. persistence.

i should have just told him that i was gay @ 20
27
If you have a problem with the military engaging docile armed militants than take it up with that procedure not this incident. This is war. These are people fighting against freedom in Iraq and trying to make the world one big Taliban camp. I wouldn't doubt these reporters were down there trying to make these terrorists look like heroes so good riddance to them. Just because they are Reuters dos not mean they are not Muslim activists using the power of the camera instead of the gun. They knew the risks. The children and women and innocent are purposely brought in by the terrorists to make the military look bad. It’s the terrorists that are the evil ones here. The reason they were taken to Iraqi hospital is because it was assumed they were kids belonged to the terrorists which is completely understandable. I agree, cover up is bad, Americans need to truth about what it takes to win this war and they need to deal with it. Terrorists are going to die and there will be collateral damage but none of these Americans want to see the innocent hurt! Can’t say the same about the terrorists. So fuck off.
29
@27

The world consists of only good and evil. The only two colors to exist are white and black. USA = freedom, IRAQ = terrorists. It must be wonderful to be you, such a simple world.
30
Why are the US always in a war?
31
@27

:)
32
It's like the Barbara Bush quote about wasting her "beautiful mind" on disgusting war image


Well at least something about her is beautiful.
33
Why were two children put into a van that was responding to a helicopter attack?
34
Can we leave now?

...

How about NOW?
35
Entia @24 You've picked sides to by not going to war. Does that mean we should disregard your opinion as compomised by bias? Should the whole Iraq war debate only take place between paraplegics and others who had their role in this war forced upon them from the outside? There are also of plenty of noncombat miliatary positions that take place behind combat lines that allow for direct involvement and observation of the war without having to loose control of your own judgement.
p.s. I'm sorry if you really are a paraplegic. In that case, your observation is much appreciated.
36
Sheeesh.... an Iraqi can't carry so much as a baguette without getting shot at. "Collateral damage" to civilians and our national reputation -- that's the true legacy of warfare from drones, fighter jets, and helicopters.
37
I'm crying at work. That was horrible.
38
The really horrible thing is this shit happens every day and we rarely hear about it. If we saw it all, we'd be rioting in the streets demanding an end to the war and some justice. This mentality that people that get shot down from a helicopter when they're just walking down the street 'had it coming' is sickening, and in my opinion is a testament to the results of immersion in this environment and one of the best reasons we shouldn't be sending our youth over there. That recruiter got my number from a community college I did a quarter at. I could do a whole thing here about targeting community college students, but you all know what I'm going to say.

And don't discredit the opinions of people who have been on tours of duty - in a lot of ways they know more about it, and they certainly have interesting perspectives to offer.
39
You know the war in Iraq still right now a fake.Saddam Hussain didn't have any of a secret weapons.Shame on US army.Just shame.Many young soldiers died in battle and Bush killed this young soldiers not teh enemies.Theirs no education of peace .Just fight.The battle in Vietnam was also fake.Even 911 was also fake.They declared by it self that they had won the battle.The two pilots just didn't have feeling of humanity.This is clearly of murder on Iraqis.Four years now just what the impact on the world.If this two pilot were my neighbour and I knew his voice.With a big sign I put in front of my yard ;"YOU 'RE A BEAST NEIGHBOUR".What will it happend when one day a civilians kills innonncent in New York City .I would say :Bush family creates only wars and enemies with other country. We want a president for humanity not for enemies.
40
@33, two children were on their way to a tutor when their father saw wounded, dying people in the street and tried to help them. He didn't get in the van thinking he was going to do anything but take his kids to their teacher.
41
It's important to remember that those sent out to fly apache missions are not the minds that have been trained in the extraordinary dangerous moral environment of a civilian war zone. They've been sent out to kill, specifically dark people, specifically with straps over there shoulders.

The most terrifying thing about this video for me was that while I was watching it, it became sickeningly clear that my gut wrenching silence could have quite easily, given the environment of those soldiers, have been the casual chit chat and guestimation I watched. It's a little too easy and far to satisfying to call the soldiers monsters for their comments. It's a little more daunting to understand that this is the culture that exists in Iraq, and this is damn sure the culture that the army wants to exist.
42
ps. Can anybody with a little military experience/knowledge let us know if it is in fact protocol to fire upon injured suspected combatants (quite the euphemism with regards to this video) while they're being removed from the battlefield? Or have we given up the whole notion of battle field and now just play video games from helicopters.

@19 It's not about the honor of killing an enemy in close quarters, it's about the fact that psychologically that has a vastly greater effect on the killer, and therefore it follows that a close quarter kill is more deliberate.
43
It's a little too easy and far to satisfying to call the soldiers monsters for their comments. It's a little more daunting to understand that this is the culture that exists in Iraq, and this is damn sure the culture that the army wants to exist.

I think it's reasonable to both think of these soldiers as monsters (what else to call someone who guns down children and then shrugs his shoulders?) and to understand that this is the culture that exists in the armed forces.
44
Their laughter and hoopla over killing another human being is what sickens me.

Oh sure, the war mongering right-wing nuts will state that "this is war," and "there is always collateral damage in war," but truthfully, if even one innocent person is killed, it is one too many.

My heart aches for the families of those that were killed.
45
Don't bull$#@t yourselves. I have been to Iraq SEVERAL times following my involvement in the invasion.. I have always acted within my concience and the NORM is that that is expected.
Don't buy into lame propaganda that Americans consider all Iraqis terrorists...or that we have liscence to indiscriminately kill.It is simply not true.
The media desire to focus on those who DO commit infractions draws away from the very real commitment the rest of us make.
sit here on the sidelines and generalize until you are blue in the face but you are not only wrong,you are confusing the actions of the few with the efforts of the many.I have personally given too much of my life and sacrificed too much to deserve that.
46
I kind of think it comes down to this:

There are people here who find the killing of a human being unconscionable no matter what the circumstances. I don't agree with those people, but I wish there were more of them in the world.
47
Thugs with weapons gathering after a firefight. Very happy they got smoked; reporters who hang with folks like that do so at their own risk.
48
I don't think the question is about whether the military could have done better, which I doubt they could have in the heat of battle. I think it's about whether the war, which in inevitably includes stuff like this, has been worth it. Has it been?
49
If every time a kid with a weapon makes a mistake it's suddenly a war crime then all war is crime, which is true. This is disgusting and wrong but this is how war works. If you don't want to see this stuff happen in your name you need to prevent the war from happening in the first place. I just hesitate to call this a war crime when I personally have never served in the military. Also almost everyone commenting here is in the same situation. You don't understand the psychological indoctrination going on here.

It is wrong to place all the blame on the solider in every situation. At the same time you can't just throw the Nuremberg defense around anytime some asshole shoots a civilian but if you truly want this to not happen you have to end the war.
50
@47: Plenty of Western reporters meet with representatives of the Taliban. Should they be shot on sight?
51
@13 FTW.

We've managed to turn our current war into a very tiny sidebar in our national consciousness. That is completely immoral.
52
The killers are playing a video game.
Perhaps the drugs they are taking (i.e. prozac, speed) help them stay
desensitized to the plight of their fellow humans. This is a symptom of the downfall of everyone's human rights. Along with the terrible destruction of these peoples lives, our lives are destroyed as we become brutal monsters.
53
Fir those of you who think these soldiers are criminals, you suffer from Cranial Rectumitis. There are at lease 2 (not the photographers) who are carrying rifles/RPGs. And sense that is OBVIOUS, it is very possible that other members of this group were carrying small arms.

It is time for you Idiots to stop refereeing the war from behind your brand new 5 foot flat screen TV and go do it yourselves sense you think you can do a better job.
54
ib+.....I am a retired Army NCO who served 1970-1987,and firing at personnel tending to the wounded is definately against the ROE(rules of engagement)UNLESS those people are clearly armed.This reminds me of Vietnam..."If he's dead and and a gook,he's the enemy".And7four7,what is your combat experience......watching Rambo on Dvd?

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