This story did nothing for me, my opinion of Pat Robertson is already as low as is humanly possible.

I really cant physically hate Pat Robertson anymore then I already do... wait... yes I can, thanks Dan.

Gee, 25% of the children in my family—my parents were evangelical Catholics—turned out to be gay. And I had straight parents.

I was one of the kids who who went to a protestant Christian school from 5th grade to 12th grade, church twice every Sunday, youth group on Wednesday, and I'm gayer than the Ace of Spades.

I can't keep the gurgle of giggles from bubbling out over this story and post. I know, I know, I know that this isn’t really funny, except it is to me… That is just so absurd in so many ways. So beyond Dan’s point here, one could also continue Pat’s train of thought and suppose that every little boy abused by priests must be secretly gay. In which case, Pat needs to get busy with outing and saving them. Again, not funny but I still want to laugh…

Is it wrong of me to say that I can't wait until all these batty old loons croak and make way for a new school of thought and discourse? Don't answer, I stick with it.

@8 Part of me thinks that too, but then I think of how it's been 2000-some years and new ones keep sprouting up (think: Rick Warren).

Does this mean Pat was raped by God?

We just need to live in a Logan's Run world until it comes time for me to go. Then we can go back to normal living, and then my sex life can regenerate.

What makes lesbians, Pat? Neighbor ladies with sensible shoes?

Joe The Plumber.

@13: No one! I'm one of the lucky "few" with biological problems. So's my boyfriend, come to think of it.

Gee, what were the odds that two of us -- two of the few -- would be living under the same roof?

This is the kind of loony, disjointed, non-sense you'd expect from people that believe myths and superstitions are real. If you can't understand something as simple as evolution, how can you understand adaptation? And just for his information, I wasn't raped by anyone. But I'm sure it's because I always found Catholic priests totally creepy and stayed away from them.

The first question my fundamentalist christian parents asked me when I came out was whether I had been sexually abused and never told them.

Then my stepmom asked me if I was going to get really skinny and start dressing differently and my dad told me 90% of gay guys have AIDS.

These people don't let reality get in the way of their thoughts.

Pat Robertson is "not at all persuaded" that there's a biological basis for anything. G*d magicked it all up.

I feel so special to be one of those lucky few, too!

Maybe Mother Earth abused me as a child, though, now that I think about it....

You know what Pat's problem is? He gets an idea and he thinks that, because it's a "good" idea in his mind, it must be true. Because he's so clever, you see.

God must be great because that just sounds like how it should be to him.

God must hate gays because of course being gay is icky and gross.

People should follow his crazy exercise regimen because, heck, he does and he's still alive!

And gay people must have been raped by male authority figures because that just makes more sense, gosh darnit.

You know who else thinks this way? Little children.

No, Pat, the moon is not following you everywhere you go.

Okay, that was way nicer than I expected. And, I'm glad that he said to love the child, as opposed to throw the child out of your home. But, I'd like to throttle him when he uses the word abomination. It doesn't translate correctly. "Zimah" is the Hebrew word for moral violation, a sin, and it isn't found in Lev. 18:22, Lev. 20:13. The word used in those two verses is "to'ebah" (Hebrew) and "bdelygma" (Greek, Septuagint 3rd century BCE) which means ritual impurity.

More from: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bi…
The most common conservative Christian Interpretation: This verse (Lev. 18:22) condemns homosexual behavior of all types including consensual sex between two adults and monogamous sexual activity within a committed relationship. Its meaning is clear and unambiguous. This verse is often quoted in Evangelical churches and on religious radio and TV programs. "Abomination" is defined in Webster's New World dictionary as "nasty and disgusting; vile, loathsome." It is a strong word indeed!

Mark Howerter writes:
"The American Heritage Dictionary says this is what abominate means: 'To detest thoroughly; abhor.' A thesaurus uses : a. hate b. despise c. loathe d. detest and e. execrate as synonyms for abominate. Lest we should ever forget how God feels about homosexuality, i.e., sodomy, the whole story of Lot in Sodom as found in Genesis chapters 18-19 should be read by every person in America at least once a year." 2

Some common liberal Christian Interpretations:

Some English translations of this passage condemn both gay and lesbian sexual relationships. This is a mistranslation. It refers only to male-male sexual behavior.

This passage does not refer to gay sex generally, but only to a specific form of homosexual prostitution in Pagan temples. Much of Leviticus deals with the Holiness Code which outlined ways in which the ancient Hebrews were to be set apart to God. Some fertility worship practices found in early Pagan cultures were specifically prohibited; ritual same-sex behavior in Pagan temples was one such practice. 3

The status of women in ancient Hebrew culture was very much lower than that of a man and barely above that of children and slaves. When a man engaged in sexual intercourse with a woman, he always took a dominant position, as a penetrator; the woman would take a submissive posture. When two men engage in sexual intercourse, one of the men, in effect, takes the role of a woman. When a man takes on the low status of a woman, the act makes both ritually impure.

Many would regard "abomination," "enormous sin", etc. as particularly poor translations of the original Hebrew word which really means "ritually unclean" within an ancient Israelite era. The Greek Septuagint translation of the Hebrew Scriptures (circa 3rd century BCE) translated "to'ebah " into Greek as "bdelygma," which meant ritual impurity. If the writer(s) of Leviticus had wished to refer to a moral violation, a sin, he would have used the Hebrew word "zimah."

This verse says nothing about consensual same-sex activity today. It only condemns same-sex religious prostitution in Pagan temples.

I don't get this obsession -- by both the "pro" and "anti" gay camps -- with the basis of homosexuality. Presumably every behavior has some biological basis. We already know several genes that predispose to violent behavior; does that make assult not a crime?

For a fundamentalist Christian, I would think that God saying homosexual behavior is a sin is enough; whether someone has a biological predisposition to comit a sin doesn't make it more or less evil in God's eyes.

For a secular liberal, I would assume the fact that homosexual behavior is a private activity between informed, consenting adults is enough; whether those adults were biologically predisposed to that behavior doesn't increase or decrease their right to engage in it.

To be fair, I'm not really sure Dick Cheney is a "fundamentalist". He's evil as fuck, but he's not crazy in the Robertson way, and while I'm sure he's Christian, I'm not aware of any hard evidence that he is in fact fundamentalist. I could check, but I'm sure someone else will and let me know if I'm wrong :)

shouldn't he be focusing his effort on tracking down all these pedophiles, because there's apparently a hell of a lot more of them than i thought (according to his logic).

oh, and way to paint the victim as the sinner, assuming he is correct (he's not). homosexuality is an abomination, but pedophilia is just sort of bad? what a dick.

Nobody ever laid their mitts on me, and I was raised about as Catholic as you can get (except for the incredible offense of going to public school - but my parents wanted me to actually get an education). I was an altar boy for almost ten years, through a variety of priests, and not a whiff of scandal. But then again, my parents wouldn't have put up with any of the funny business that you sometimes read about (Spending the night at a rectory? Uh, no thanks. "hanging out" with a priest? ugh. They were not the type of men you'd want to "hang out with". Most of them were pretty stern.)

But really, and I say this in all seriousness - I truly believe that Pat Robertson has dementia. He gets crazier and crazier with each year.

Actually I don't know that there are, 28.

If (male) gay kids are made gay by men abusing them, those men are therefore gay, which means those men were made gay by men abusing THEM, so forth and so on until the beginning of time. The question becomes who was The First Gay Man, and how did He become gay?

Usually these sorts of arguments are answered by religious types with "God", so I'll just leave it at that.

You seriously couldn't think of any possible NON-Christian authority figures in these kids' lives?

For a "thought experiment" you sure didn't put a lot of thought into it.

I understand what you're getting at, but the flaw is that these kids live in the real world, which means they are exposed to people who are NOT fundamentalist Christians: coaches, teachers, comic book store owner...

Not to say any of this is the way it goes, but your logic assumes fundies are like the FLDS and have no access to the rest of the world, and that's not the case.

how could these people possibly be so into the beliefs they hold so dear? it makes no sense. they say such-and-such causes homosexuality or insanity or what-have-you and eventually, with enough of their own tracing, all of it has to go back to their abominable deity. they always pull the "god did it" if it's good, but "it's our fault" when something bad happens. dan was right in his column right after 9/11. if they want to say everything good is because of god, they have to accept that the bad is too. but, much like their translation of the bible, only what they want to apply applies to them. once being gay is no longer some mystifying bizarre occurrence these idiots will move on to whatever the next thing is. pretty fucking soon dying your hair green will make someone possessed by satan. why not? it's the same logic they use. it's unnatural, i'm sure there's something in the bible about changing your natural appearance that's ungodly or whatever they've been ignoring up til now. there's no arguing with these old fucks. just get them off fucking tv and let them die. they deserve no better.

I know a lot of straight people who were molested as kids. Why didn't they turn gay?

From my experience as a lay counselor and personal testimony Robertson's theory, molestation = gay, doesn't hold water. Whereas, molestation does have some correlation with domestic violence. And, domestic violence does have some correlation with both abortion and divorce. Perhaps, they want to use molestation as the root cause of three major issues within the church?

@31 and 32. You're not accounting for the extremely creepy Christians who homeschool their kids and only let them interact with other members of the church (both other kids and adults). Their chances of interacting in a significant way with an adult figure who is not involved in their church are very slim. And there are MANY MANY creepy crazy Christians who shelter their kids like this and produce gay kids. I used to be one, I was not raped, and I turned out gay as the hills...I must also be one of those biological oddities.

For some reason this post (and comment threat) make me think back to when I was in middle school, at a fundamentalist Christian middle school. I was sexually harassed on multiple occasions by my (female) P.E. teacher, who was also caught in a couple of somewhat-inappropriate situations with younger male students (elementary and middle school used the same facilities). Last year I found out that she is now living happily as an out lesbian. In the context of the discussion here, what should I make of this?

*thread. Comments don't threaten me.

@34: Because Pat Robertson is full of shit, maybe?

@ 31 and 32,

You have valid points, the chance that a devout fundamentalist raised child is sequestered completely away from all of the secular world is small. I do know some families, where it is pretty close (fundamentalist Christian school, Christian music, Christian books, Christian movies, Christian camps, Christian T.V. cable channels, Christian radio stations, only allowed to socialize with Christian friends within the denomination, only compete on Christian schools athletic teams, etc.,) but these same kids can be found eating a Blizzard at the local Dairy Queen and shopping at American Eagle in the mall.

Hernandez,

I'd say that unhappy people do not always make the wisest choices. Sometimes, they have to spread their unhappiness around, and sometimes they overcompensate to hide who they are. Closeting rips the soul, and has the potential to rip the souls of others. We are all victims in some aspect of ourlives, but that doesn't give us the free pass for becoming agents in victimizing others. Quite the opposite, it demands we step up to the plate and take responsiblity for our own recovery and healing. There are always reasons for abuse, but there never is an excuse for it.

rewind:

... of our lives,

Whenever I come across Pat Robertson spewing his views on homosexuality, my faith in a God who's great and just gets that little bit firmer.

Pat Robertson's helped me to come to believe in God, through showing such clear and convincing evidence of Satan, the Adversary, who works to oppose HIs designs.

I believe there is a God because I believe there is a Satan. I believe there is a Satan because it's so clearly obvious that Pat fucking Robertson sucks His gigantic warty flaking smegma clotted cock.

Hmm...oddly enough, no-one molested me either. Guess I just turned out fabulous on my own.

@15, God help me, I actually find Joe the Plumber kinda marginally cute. But he'd have to come with a ball gag.

@24 & @34: In response to the points raised in your posts (though this in no way is in support of the crackpot theory spouted by Robertson) - Perhaps it has more to do with the tendency of sexual predators to choose victims that are somewhat shy, insecure, or in someway 'less sure' of themselves. While not every child that will grow up to identify as gay will fit that profile - more than a few will (enough that would make it seem to the unobservant that it is the abuse 'triggering' 'gayness' rather than gay children fitting the profile of the 'preferred victim'), along with their peers who will grow up to identify as straight.

These children would be preyed upon due to their perceived vulnerabilities (which may include being rebuked or pushed away by one or both parental figures) and subsequent anecdotal accounts and reports may wrongly be interpreted as 'sexual abuse makes kids more likely to be homosexual' rather than the more probable 'gay and lesbian children are more likely to be victims of sexual abuse'.

The latter would argue for the need of more acceptance of children who display differences - rather than pushing them away or leaving them to feel that the only 'love and support' that they can get is from someone outside the home who may not always have the child's safety and well-being in mind.

@42 Thank you, Kim, that makes a lot of sense.

"All these Christian kids are being raped by straight-identified, nominally-Christian coaches and counselors and youth pastors and dorm captains."

Sounds like Patty-Cakes has been reading Youth Pastor Watch.

I blame the 69 Club.

Oh wait, maybe it's the 700 Club.

One of those.

Hernandez,

You're welcome.

God made lesbians for the entertainment of us male, Christian heterosexuals in our girl-on-girl porn.

@46

A very excellent post.

For my part, I think for some people it is biological... but for some people it's not. I know some gay men who are just genuinely into men, but I've always known gay men who are into men because women are oh-so-yucky, something that smacks more of unresolved issues than biological pre-determination.

We do need to recall that if we're claiming that sexuality is a spectrum, then it can't be explained entirely by biology, we have to mix in upbringing, societal expectations, as well as a myriad of other factors.

Robertson is way off base to claim that ALL gay men were molested, and that's why they turned out gay. Making one claim to explain such a huge percent of the population is ridiculous. However, is it POSSIBLE that early abuse by an adult of the same gender influenced a youth in a certain direction at a pivotal point in his sexual exploration? It's probable, if totally untestable, and thus unknowable.

I just don't think we can nail down that THIS ONE THING causes homosexuality/heterosexuality. Let's mock Robertson for his blanket statements and lack of subtlety, and his ignorant twisting of Christian texts to support his own agenda, but his theory is just as sound as someone who claims that homosexuality is ENTIRELY biological in EVERY case.

Hey- where's Loveschild??

BTW, I'm as queer as they come and nobody molested me. The opposite, in fact. I wanted my hunky (grown-up) neighbor from across the street, but wound up giving blowjobs to his son when we were both in our teens. Junior's been "married" 3 or 4 times since, and I put it down to my giving him better head when he was a teenager than anything he's gotten since.

Pat Robertson can go suck Loveschild. Or vice versa. Or both.

Jake the ace of spades is gay? How'd that happen? I'm pretty sure the hills are gay, thanks to The Sound of Music. Heck, any fifties or sixties musical (and anything they reference) could be safely regarded as gay. I always suspected the one-eyed jacks, but the ace of spades?

I learn something new every day.

As one who's been brutalized by plenty of male figures, including coaches, overzealous psychotherapists, pederast uncles, evil stepfathers and cold-as-ice patriarchs, it's a wonder I turned out straight, but not even that really creepy closeted-gay homophobe straight; I lost my enculturated fear of gays once I actually sat down with one and figured out they were just folks. I know I'm straight not because that's what mum and dad wanted me to be, but from the curvy way that women are shaped and the great pheromones they exude doing things to my brain that guys (so far) just don't.

So what happened? Did Jesus spare my immortal soul the trials he reserves especially for choirboys?

I'm surprised that people still take Pat Robertson seriously, still. One would think it obvious to all by now he's an out-of-touch dotty old curmudgeon. Is the 700 club still getting Bush-era funding?

kim in portland, thanks for doing the look-up work on this one. The OCRT added the bit about abomination since last I checked, so that's new to me.

Yet another gay guy here that was NOT molested - yet somehow still turned out gay. And to be perfectly honest, anytime after 13, I SO wanted to be molested. I can remember having the hots for so many of my Coaches, Scout Leaders and Sunday School teachers.
And as someone who grew up Baptist I can tell you, Dan is right that their exposure to non-Christian adults is VERY limited - in that you don't spend significant time away from your family unless it's a church activity.

You're wrong about the bi thing, Dan - As long as it's hot bi females who are doing the dorm 'captaining', it's allll good.

@41 and 31/32: Straying a bit from the homosexuality theme, but it has been my observation as well as my own experience that many kids who are raised in fundamentalist bubbles leave the fold as adults. Some attend and may even be active in liberal churches while some leave religion entirely. Along the same lines, the most devout fundies I knew grew up outside the church and converted as adults. Maybe they were looking for structure in their lives, maybe they made bad choices and wanted a life in which choices were limited--I don't know, each person's story is different. But that seems to be the pattern I observed.

I am currently reading the autobiography of a man whose father was one of the leading figures in the evangelical universe in the 1960s-70s. I remember Junior from my seminary days as a right wing whack job getting rich from Daddy's big name. But I recently heard an NPR interview in which this guy confesses to voting for Obama. He calls his book Crazy For God, referring to his past life. As another ex-fundy who knows where he is coming from, I'd say it's a very appropriate title.

@ 58,

I actually started in a very conservative church. Some of what I heard from the puplit went against my conscience, to me it seemed against the very words of Christ himself. I don't worship there anymore. So, yes I agree with you.

I'm familiar with a lot of research that suggests that being gay is bilogically determined. I teach human sexuality classes. And anyone who isn't convinced (at least as far as gay men are concerned) either haven't seen or refuse to look at the data! Both concrete physical differences between gay men and straight men and genetic tendencies in families providing evidence for a genetic basis. AND, let's not forget all of the research where we never find that abused boys are any more likely to be gay than un-abused boys -- which most forget about. There evidence is there. If you're not convinced, you're an idiot. But that's just stubbornness on the part of conservative religious freaks.

More important that that to me is this: Who cares whether it's a choice or not?! Even if I did think it was a choice, I think it should be one that people are free to make. When research first started coming out with evidence that sexual orientation was genetic, people immidiatly started talking about ways to "fix" it through genetic engineering. Being gay isn't a genetic disease or something that needs to be fixed. Throughout history gay people have been valuable contributing (if somewhat ostracized) members of the community. So bottom line is, no it's not a choice, but so what if it was?

No one's getting hurt by people being gay. I don't like the idea of "let's accept them because it's biologically determined and the poor things can't help themselves" idea, nor do I like the "If it's biological, we can "fix" it idea. Just live and let live. And if the crazy Christian freaks spent some time actually reading the bibles and really asked themselves, "What would Jesus do?" this whole "is it biological" argument would be a moot point!!

Okay, rant over. Dan, thanks for giving a straight woman an outlet to vent about the stupidity that pervades our country at the moment!

And another thing. Even if crazy Christian bigots want to ignore all of the scientific evidence ('cause let's face it, they usually do), this theory doesn't even make logical sense!! If you're abused by a MAN, then wouldn't you be LESS likely to want to have a sexual relationship with men?! If he were making this argument about lesbians, it still wouldn't be true, but it least it would be more logical. Maybe there are a few lesbians out there who might have been bisexual if some asshole man hadn't abused them. But gay men being gay because they were abused by a man ... not only does the data not support that, logically, it makes absolutely no sense!!

Great blog, Dan.

So much pompous ignorance percolates out of windbags like Robertson, but I don't think many people are listening any more. Most Americans hear this kind of nonsense and just shake their head.

On the other hand, while watching Fox Noise Network here in Australia, I heard Glen Blech outgassing about how Nazis built volkswagens and that means Obama's plans for Chrysler are Fascist and anyway FDR's New Deal made the Great Depression last a lot longer. So it isn't just the religious nutjobs that hold the patent on stupid.

Greg

I'm sad for the kid. Of course any reasonable person knows Robertson is wrong, but how prevalent is this sort of advice to the parents of gay children: tolerate them, love them, but explain to them that they are an abomination? That's a big word (emotionally) for any kid to understand, even if they look it up, or have it more properly translated. And when it comes from a parent who claims to love him... confusing, devastating. Adolescence is hard enough.

When I came out to my family, my parents had already past. My sister told me they all knew because I had been molested so many times when I was a kid. When they reminded me about the incidents, it brought back vague memories. I probably initially tried to forget them or didn't think they were worth remembering.
I do remember 3 of my best friends having sex for money with a neighborhood pedophile that all grew up to be straight.
So, I guess if you give it away for free when you're a kid, you're gonna be queer.

I blame Barack Hussein Mohammed Obama.

yawn

This just in, Pat Robertson: crazy as catshit

As you were.

Please do not feed the trolls

Thank you

Salaam, Shalom, Peace

@ 68 (AKA Fred34): your "crazy as catshit" quip really amused me for some reason. Fun comment, thanks for a good laugh.

On another note, maybe someone else mentioned this somewhere in this loooong series of comments, but there are people out there who were molested as children and DID NOT TURN OUT GAY. So apparently child abuse isn't a reliable way to make homosexuals. Wannabe gays and lesbians might want to look into the biological options. Made science could make more people gay with experimental stem cell treatments? Just a thought.

75% percent of all people are potentially BI.

REAL childhood sexual abuse can potentially push someone to sexually identify one way or the other.

But here's the catch.

Homosexual abuse tends to create heterosexual identifying adults.
(ie, most of the dudes suing priests identify as straight)

Heterosexual abuse seems to create homosexual identifying adults
(Who doesn't know at least 3 lesbians with a BAD daddy?(or uncle,stepfather,grandfather, etc)

In short, Heterosexual abuser are creating a shortage of straight/bi adults

Homosexual abusers are creating MORE exclusively straight adults!

@74

You are 68% wrong in the majoity of your comment, and 92% mistaken on the rest. You speak with such certainty, though, such authority, that you've nearly got me convinced. The catch: list your sources for these fasscccinating truths to which you subscibe.

@ 53 (Martychan) Your heart may be in the right place, but your thinking isn't: Of course sexuality is biology. Nothing more, nothing less. To quote you:

"I think for some people it is biological... but I've always known gay men who are into men because women are oh-so-yucky, something that smacks more of unresolved issues than biological pre-determination."

And:

"We do need to recall that if we're claiming that sexuality is a spectrum, then it can't be explained entirely by biology"

Martychan, you DO NOT KNOW any gay men who are "into' men because women are "oh-so-yucky." Totally straight men really like women sexually. They like VAGINA. Gay men like DICK. Any guy who tells you he's likes dick because women are "yucky" (whatever that means) is lying, to you and to himself. I'm 90% gay and have had sex with women and enjoyed it. Women are not yucky. They are just not as sexy as men - in my opinion.

Also, why would you say that sexuality as a spectrum contradicts established notions of biology. In fact, the opposite is true. Biology is not a binary black-and-white proposition. Biology is always a complex continuum of characteristics.

@ 53 (Martychan) Your heart may be in the right place, but your thinking isn't: Of course sexuality is biology. Nothing more, nothing less. To quote you:

"I think for some people it is biological... but I've always known gay men who are into men because women are oh-so-yucky, something that smacks more of unresolved issues than biological pre-determination."

And:

"We do need to recall that if we're claiming that sexuality is a spectrum, then it can't be explained entirely by biology"

Martychan, you DO NOT KNOW any gay men who are "into' men because women are "oh-so-yucky." Totally straight men really like women sexually. They like VAGINA. Gay men like DICK. Any guy who tells you he's likes dick because women are "yucky" (whatever that means) is lying, to you and to himself. I'm 90% gay and have had sex with women and enjoyed it. Women are not yucky. They are just not as sexy as men - in my opinion.

Also, why would you say that sexuality as a spectrum contradicts established notions of biology. In fact, the opposite is true. Biology is not a binary black-and-white proposition. Biology is always a complex continuum of characteristics.

@ Puty 73, thanks I liked it too – it's not mine, it's Paul Mooney – brilliant brilliant brilliant Paul Mooney.

@ Uriel 55, your welcome.

#81 see #74

Btw just to clarify my post at 74, i do not actually believe that abuse makes anyone gay or straight.

Only that it might influence how they opt to identify socially.

Social identification never correlates 100% with any actual behavior.

@82

i didn't mean to dismiss your ideas entirely. it's a good notion you have, but the reality is much different. molestation (in my opinion) never produces a sexual orientation. and i reject that notion that 75% of people are essentially bisexual. I'm a guy -- 100%. I'm also gay -- 100%. nobody molested me as a child. i was raised in a brady-family model (as most americans were). i would never have hoped to be gay. but here i am.

your intentions are good, I think: it would be wonderful if we were all roughly bisexual. i'm guessing that you would be a good scientist. meet me for a drink sometime. let me show you the dirt under my fingernails. it's not pretty.

I'm 100% Gay...was raised in an Evangelical Christian home, Baptist sunday school, Christian summer camp, went hunting and to football games, etc. with my dad...the whole 9 yards...NEVER was molsted in anyway. My partner who's a Protestant pastor was raised pretty much the same way, also NEVER molested and as far as I know is 100% Gay.
Our (adopted) son was, from what we were able to ascertain from social services, most likely molested at some point in early childhood by a neighbor of his biological grandmother...after several years with us in a loving and safe family, he is happy, well-adjusted, and as far as we can determine 100% hetrosexual...Go figure...just sayin'