Perfect advice for letters 1 & 2.

For mom (#3), I'd give further advice:

At 16, your son knows whether he likes pussy or dick (or perhaps both). It is simply a matter of whether he is comfortable in this knowledge himself, and if he is comfortable sharing it with you.

Ideally, all parents should raise their kids without assuming what their sexual orientation will be, and reassure them from a very young age that they will be accepted regardless of what their eventual sexual orientation turns out to be.

If you haven't been doing that, you can still get on the bandwagon. Occasionally bring up something like "I read an article yesterday about parents rejecting their son for being gay. I would never do that. I would love my children regardless of who they're attracted to. It's perfectly normal that some kids are gay." Or something like that. Repeat this ever month or so. That way you are sending very clear signals that you love him without directly asking his orientation or accusing him of being gay. You are simply reassuring him it's okay to come out if he chooses to. And you aren't dissing him if it turns out he's simply an eloquent and sensitive straight boy.

I don't quite get why couple #1 just can't sleep in separate bedrooms. you don't have to stay in there the whole time. slip in, fuck quietly, slip out. easy peasy. or, you know, don't fuck. pretend you're married.

I also don't quite get why there would be Mormons in WV.

Finally, "long emails" are tl;dr. they only make people upset. don't do it. gird your loins and call.

That one I get.

When my cousin's kid was hitting puberty, my cousin thought his son might be gay. He asked me if I thought he should just ask his son, and I said "NO!" If his son was gay, in all likelihood he was still trying to come to terms with it himself, and being asked by his own parent would freak him out (about not passing) more than it would reassure him that he'd be accepted by his family. I told him instead to reassure him through his words and actions that he was cool with gay people -- but nothing specific about his son.

So my cousin invited more and more of his own gay friends to hang out. And most importantly: he was teaching in a high school at the time, and he volunteered to be the faculty adviser for the school's gay/straight alliance.

As it happens, his son ended up being straight. But at least he went through puberty knowing his parents would love him no matter what.

#1 I find hilarious, because the exact same thing happened to me.

When we visited my boyfriend's mormon mother, we stayed in a really shady, icky motel a mile or so away from her house. And we had to follow rules every minute at the house. No excessive touching, no kissing, no acting like we love each other, no consuming or even speaking of non-mormon things like caffeine or R-rated movies.

Now, since I was the girlfriend and not the child of the mormon family, I felt I had no place to complain or dictate the conditions of the visit. It's their house, I don't want to stomp all over their beliefs. It's like not bringing meat into a vegan's house, it's just the polite thing to do. But it'd probably be a different story if it was my own mother doing it.

I'm surprised she even acknowledges you have a significant other. Mormons are indoctrinated really hardcore into believing silly things. (Though I'd wager they'd say the same thing about everyone non-mormon.)

@2 - Having been in this exact situation more than once and doing exactly what you suggest, I don't get it either. Visiting folks usually means dealing with some old-timey crazy—if you can deal, deal, if not, why didn't they just offer to get a hotel in the first place?

LW1; I wouldn't visit Mom, period. Hypocrite. Stick her rich husband, stick her big house. She wants a visit, then she come visit you or stay in a motel close by herself. Until she can totally accept you as you are. How could you not be allowed to talk of coffee..
LW2; yes. Ring your brother. Every girl wants her dad to give her away. Good luck there. More shitty parents!
LW3; when my boy was 16 or was that 15, he made a short film for his school film class. It was about being gay ( he played one of the gays)and being bullied. I thought. Oh. Then I thought. Ok. I did ask him, straight.. I am that sort of Mother. I am not homophobic, so I'm guessing my attitude came thru..
He is not gay. Think he got an A or A+ for the film, though.. My suggestion is just ask him straight up. Just be careful not to laden the question with too much concern in your voice. It ain't a disease..

Oops ; every girl wants her dad to walk her down the Aisle..
Though with a dad like that, I'd give him away..

Personally, I think generally living and being out about acceptance and supporting equality is the big thing parents can do currently to make sure their kids feel safe regardless of their sexual or gender orientation. Let your kids know you politically support marriage equality. Let your kids know you have queer friends (if you do). Let your kids know your beliefs. If you can afford to, consider donating to charities that help lgbt teens or marriage equality or similar queer issues and make sure your kids know that you do. Growing up knowing that their parents are allies is almost certainly going to make them feel safer if they end up somewhere in the queer alphabet themselves. Not that every ally actually does cope well when it is their kid, but it's still going to help to send the message that it's okay. And maybe it'll also help to give them the strength to deal with the people who are trying to tell them otherwise.

@3: Well done by your cousin, and good advice.

I disagree with you on letter #1, Dan. It's not such an inconvenience to have to abstain from sleeping in the same bed with your boyfriend for a few nights. Deal with it. No coffee? Boo-hoo, go to a drive-thru and get a cup o'joe on your own time. I don't personally believe that caffeine or premarital sex are no-nos, but if my mother were hosting me, and kind enough to invite my significant other, I'd have enough respect to abide by her rules.

But whatever. It's ultimately up to the letter writer if she wants to stomp her feet and whine about getting her own way, or if she'd rather not visit.

LW 1: Dump The Mother Mormon Already

Re: LW#1 -- Do you think the parents would dare to impose all those rules (particularly the "no sex under our roof" rule) on anyone staying with them who wasn't one of their offspring? What do you suppose said non-offspring would do if they did try?

Most likely the parents wouldn't dare try it, but it they were dumb enough to give it a go, most likely the non-offspring guests would laugh in their face and go find a hotel.

Because they are, you know, responsible adults, and no longer answerable to parents. So go act like responsible adults yourself. Living your own life on your own terms means go find a hotel that is more to your taste.

That said, there are consequences to enforcing the rules on your guests that way. If the only available choice of hotel is unreasonably far away, then I guess you aren't going to have a lot of ability to spend much time with the parents. Get up when you fucking feel like it. Have sex in the morning because it's your prerogative and then drive to their house when you are good and ready. At the end of the evening, leave early enough that the drive isn't obnoxious. Do your shopping and other entertainment in town. If that cuts into visitation time, tough shit. The parents can always tag along after you, rather than the reverse. And hey, they are the ones who wanted you a half hour away. They should be prepared to own it.

Same-sex-marriage niece: Dad merely showing up for the wedding is not going to be enough. Not by half. Tell him that at this point you plan to walk his daughter down the aisle, period -- because she asked you to do it, because every bride deserves SUPPORTIVE family on her wedding day, and if her own Dad can't find it in his heart to be supportive, you will do it for him. If he wants to be the supportive father, at this point he has to ask nicely.

LW1: My mom is pretty liberal and easy-going. But when I was younger, I would not be allowed to stay in the same room with a boyfriend. The last time I visited, I did, but that's because she and my stepfather have a pretty small condo. Besides, as comment 2 suggests, you can slip into one another's rooms for a bit of nookie and slip out. You can get caffeine elsewhere (nearby coffee shop?) Keep your visits short, follow the rules during the visits and accept it as the price of seeing your mom.

LW2: Whether or nor her father shows up, you should walk your niece down the aisle, since you are the one who is supportive of her. Still, it would be nice if you called her parents and let them know that. You're the one she trusted to tell her news. You're the one she want to walk her down the aisle. Whether or not her other family shows, do that for her.

LW3: I'm not sure I'd share such a sad story. Surely there is a better way of letting your child know that gay or straight, you will love and accept him. I read one story where a parent found out/suspected and asked the son if he had any crushes or was interested in anyone and teased it out of him that way. Or the parent could talk about the gains marriage equality has been making and how good it is that loving couples have legal recognition.

Someone really needs to write a book on what to do if you suspect your child is gay without scaring the kid.

Well played, Mr Avast.

Ms Lava - My sister didn't. I'll give you a benefit of the doubt and say no more.

Mr Kevin - I'm getting an amusing little idea that one needn't ask because one can tell from people's friends. Did you see an article two or three ago about how it was becoming quite a thing for young gay men in urban areas to have no gay friends at all, or one at most, and to claim not being able to stand gay men for reasons as stereotypical as those that used to be associated with catty women who only liked socializing with men? As straight people worth their salt have tended to have a higher proportion of gay friends than the general population would suggest, it seemed that one might be able to work out the under/over.

Wasn't there a thing on reddit a bit ago about a dad who spoke with his teenaged son about supporting gay folks in general, and gay kids in particular--and the kid finally came out, and the dad was supportive and everything was awesomesauce?

Send the kid that story, with a note saying that you love him like this dad loves his kid--no conditions, no judgments, just love.

#10-

Fuck that noise. Parents that try to dictate their adult childrens' lives are abhorrent, judgmental, controlling assholes. They deserve no sympathy or respect. Mormon mom sounds like she's as despicable as she is hypocritical.

Dan, once again I had to read the entire letter before learning the gender of the letter writer. Would it kill you to add (male) or (female) into your letters? It's a simple courtesy to your readers.

To 2 please ASK you niece before you contact her father. in my experience people who don't want their parents in their lives usually have good reason for that, and while having a Hallmark movie ending is unlikely, I'd be more worried that the family would show up and try to spoil or protest the ceremony.

Say what Venn? Your sister didn't what- and give me the benefit of the doubt about? Confusing..

When your dad has been abusive, you don't necessarily want him to walk you down the aisle, if you go the marriage-in-a-space-with-a-central-aisle route.
I second the advice to check in with the niece before talking to her dad.

And I also agree that we need a whole binder of stories, in every shade along the implicit/explicit continuum, in our toolbox for conveying to kids that we accept their sexual orientation(s).

@1 "Ideally, all parents should raise their kids without assuming what their sexual orientation will be, and reassure them from a very young age that they will be accepted regardless of what their eventual sexual orientation turns out to be. "

I did this, both to make them LGBT allies from a young age (and middle school playground is totally homophobic, so I felt they needed words to show their friends those games were a vicious training in becoming LGBT bullies, not normal innocent games) and to make them know they'll be loved no matter what.

As a result my eldest has come out to me recently as straight into bondage, my middle one has had a threesome wedding plans phase pretty young but she's been steady with a boy her age for some years now (no kissing, he's shy and they're both pre-teens) and she gives advice to his mother as to being a stricter parent because she wants him to get better grades, and my youngest seems to be hesitating between trans ("I wish I was a girl", big liking of jewelry) and cis (I want to stay a boy") and I've been recently told he has a real talent for acting, so all bets are still open.

The important thing is that I never mocked them with the usual crappy "no, that can't be possible, all relationships need wedding and wedding is male and female only". And we had in-depth discussions on Conchita Wurst when she won Eurovision, as being trans or in drag, and the etiquette use of "her/him".

I feel it's one of the far and few in between topic that I haven't failed, in educating my kids.

@ msanonymous, Still Thinking

Yes, check with the niece first.

I didn't want my pedophile father to know of my impending wedding and already born kid, and some jerk thought it was a good idea to tell him. Luckily the pedophile was half a Earth away so he didn't come, but the step-parents received letters at their home asking them to give him access to the kid not too long afterwards.

It's not the same case, but a grumpy or possibly protesting family member at one's wedding is NOT something anyone should wish. LW2 : don't even ask the dad. The niece asked you to walk her down the aisle, it's a huge honor she bestowed on you, she didn't ask you to find a way that her father walks her instead of you, whom she's chosen.

Yep. Agree. Ask the young woman first before ringing Dad..
Guess I was just projecting. My Dad died when I was 15: I loved my Dad.... I would have been honoured if he'd been at my Wedding..

Ms Lava - I was trying to be nice by not being sharp about "every girl". I do honour your sentiment regarding your personal situation, but could refer you to a number of women who chose not to be walked down the aisle at all (despite getting on well with Daddy) or (as Ms Thinking mentions) not even to have an aisle down which to be walked.

Ms Sissou - If you got such a hard one right, I expect that that required getting many easier things right as well. I shall hope, though, that Mlle Sissou does not have many other controlling characteristics.

I'm also a little baffled by LW1 - like 2,4,5, et al, I've been in that position a couple of times in life...in fact, I kind of got a good laugh out of it (how is this happening to me at this stage of life?) when Mrs. Finch and I (not yet married) got this treatment - in our 30s and late 40s, from her parents. They aren't shitty hypocrites, but a little old fashioned...plus, they have coffee. But just deal with it or book your own motel/hotel. Then, I'm kind of an afficionado of 30s-40s roadside americana motels, as long as they're not too grungy. @12 - I think you're wrong - I think they'd be just as quick to treat non-family members the exact same way - or likely not invite an unmarried couple for an overnight visit in the first place.

I had to re-read Dan's advice 3-4 times before I decided I agree completely - the only thing I guess I'd add is: only insist she pick up the tab if you really can't pay your own tab. It's a slightly different spin on what he said, but I think there is a strong statement made by standing on your own feet economically; it says, "I'm an independent adult and you can't use the pocketbook weapon to manipulate me." I'd pick the time, dates and all the logistics associated with visiting - take control of the visit back - and do it the way that suits you. Then, if it really is important to your mother to have you in or near her house (rather than in a nicer hotel of your choosing, perhaps further away, with a better coffee house, sex toy shop and movie theater nearby), she's the one who has to capitulate. I'd take this same approach even if you can't afford it, and after investigating, tell mom, "gee, these are the circumstances under which we're willing to visit, no we're not staying in the skeevy motel, and we just can't afford it".

On LW2 - I don't have a lot of experience with this - navigating bigotry inside family - but for my money, I'd stay out of it. I don't think it's Uncle's place, short of child abuse, to interject himself in the parent-child relationship. For a really simple thought-exercise: what if the roles were flipped? What if Gay uncle had a child who rebelled by becoming a fundy bigot (ok, far fetched, I know, but...) and fundy brother took it upon himself to insert himself in the relationship? Let niece learn to fight her own battles and manage her own relationships (or not) - be there to be supportive and helpful (and walk her down the aisle).

For LW1, an almost identical relationship.

http://www.ohjoysextoy.com/meettheparent…

What AFinch @27 says, except without the bafflement. They’ve been living together two years. Mom does not get to redefine their relationship on her terms and Daughter does not have to play along.

I think you were a little harsh in letters 2 and 3.

For the lesbian niece, yes let her know first. And then if she is ok with it, I would say to the brother...

Hi Bro

Your daughter asked me to walk her down the aisle in her ceremony. If you reach out to her and you two want to share her one and only special day by doing so, don't worry about me. I will enjoy the day more of you do the honors.

For the third LW.... DO NOT SHOW THE STORY. Just say to your kid.... gosh, with all the hatred and bullying and troubles teens face in letting their parents know who they are, just know that I love you unconditionally. All I want for you is to live your life as you see fit, and be with someone you love. There is nothing you can tell me about who you ar that would lessen my love for you

THD: Am I missing something? "They have plenty of unoccupied guest bedrooms"; "she has always had a rule that unmarried couples sleep in separate bedrooms". So why not put THD and his boyfriend in separate bedrooms?

Otherwise, I think that if THD wants his mother to accept his life choices, and accept him as an adult, then he can be adult enough to pay for the hotel room of his choice. "You're going to accept me, Mom, and not only that, but you're going to accept me at your expense" is the demand of a child.

@7: Some girls just don't want their father to walk them down the aisle because, you know, feminism.

@32 Or if he's a raging arsehole...

LW3 MOM: JUST SAY YOU LOVE HIM. make it clear you love him no matter what. talk with him. it could cause him hurt for you to make drop subtle hints. cos parents are do much worse at being subtle than they think they do. if you can work in a story sometime about another parent who accepts/doesn't accept their kid, then great. but if it's too obvious it could create a rift.

for Mom (letter 3), don't share the story Dan linked to (cranky about your sexless Yuletide, Dan?), but read this and follow this dad's lead.

nocutename @35 yes!

#31 The letter writer is a woman. It's a heterosexual couple. Other than that I agree completely with the rest of your comments and feel like Dan kinda missed on this one.

When I was younger I wasn't allowed to sleep in the same bedroom as a boyfriend in my parents house. Now that I'm in my mid-30s the rules have softened significantly.

@32; not sure why Feminism should prevent a woman wanting her father to walk her down the aisle.
Dont Feminists have fathers? Or you think the mother should walk a woman down the aisle?
I got married in a registry office. The thought of a " wedding" totally freaked me out.
Some Feminists want a wedding, and want their dad to walk them down the aisle.. I don't see a problem. Feminism is about having choice, not more restrictions..

When I was a teenager my mom asked me point blank if I was gay. She said she loves me no matter what or who I was with. I knew she was very very liberal but she then Mae a huge mistake. She said that my father would have issues but he would come around. That last statement drove me into the closet further. Plus I was not ready. So, I answered no and left it at that.

She died 4 years later and I regret that I ever told her. I know she would have not only loved me she would hae been a card carrying PFLAG member and start a local chapter if needed.

She made a huge mistake. I say don't hint or lead anything to say you suspect but lead by example by bringing gay people around including couples. Be open about how you support them. Then the kid may open up.

Finally don't make the sme mistake my mom did.

THD: you can't demand that your mother like or approve of your choice of lifestyle but you can expect her to treat you like an adult and with respect.
If you aren't able pay for the accommodation when you visit (i.e. be the independent adult and not the dependent child) then simply decline her invite by saying: "It was kind of you to make arrangements to accommodate us but unfortunately it really wasn't a very nice motel. I think we shall just need to wait until we can afford to pay for somewhere nicer" - then it is up to her to improve the incentive to visit or go without your company.

Mom: as others have said, don't place your son on the spot. Try to find a way of expressing your support in a subtler way, how about making a donation to the Ali Forney centre or a similar organisation in your area and have a sticker, leaflet or correspondence lying around the place. If your son comments on it you can say how it angers you that parents could be so unsupportive.

@31 I disagree. It's an issue of respect. You don't invite a couple to your home and then disrespect them. The mother is pretending to let them be guests, but treating them horribly. It would also be wrong for the daughter to invite her parents (if they are in a relationship with each other) to her home and then insist they sleep in separate rooms. You can invite people to be your guest or you can not, but if you do, you don't get to insist they pretend they aren't in a relationship while in your home. That's rude and insulting. And that's the issue.

The correct solution is to insist that either she and her partner be treated with respect or they will not visit. But why subject yourself or your partner to constant insults during a visit? If a parent's lack of acceptance of their child means more to them than seeing their child, then let them not see their child and let their child live in peace.

Ms Lava - Ms Fan said *some*, implying choice. I've seen a couple of wedding discussions in places more feminist than this, and many feminists found the appearance of being *given away* (your original wording as well) or given away specifically by one man to another too patriarchal. Some cut the custom; some kept it in for for Daddy's sake; some didn't dislike the idea at all.

Now I'm in the mood to watch Muriel's Wedding again. I remember playing it for my best friend, who did not predict the processional at all accurately and accordingly looked as stunned as most of the cast.

I'm going to side with those suggesting that LW1 visit her mother occasionally, for a weekend, and stay in separate bedrooms (if you're her guests) or in a hotel (if the Mormon rules are truly too much). You can slip into each other's rooms, you can go out for coffee, you can survive without alcohol (I'm granting caffeine because if you're a heavy user you will get withdrawal headaches, so sure, do a Starbucks run), you can smoke somewhere else. It's very much like the no-alcohol-in-the-house rule: You don't snarl "Oh yeah? You're not the boss of me!" and huddle over a can of lite beer all night to make a point. Because you can drink (smoke, eat meat, eat carbs, shoot heroin, wear a hat indoors, sleep in any combination) at your own place. It's a weekend. If it's that tough, it can be a rare weekend.

And yes, plenty of people would forbid any unmarried couple from sharing a bed (carrying in coffee and alcohol, etc), not just their offspring. I think there's a distinction between "I refuse to admit your SO exists" and "I'm not comfortable knowing that you share a bed, please maintain a light fiction by not directly referencing it." The latter accepts the two of you as a social unit, which is what should matter.

I also disagree that any imposition of house rules on guests is some vile crushing of their soul. People can maintain a home in which guests do not wander around nude, or smoke, or drink to the point of vomiting on everyone's shoes, or loudly explain that affirmations are stupid when the host says their daily affirmation about dental hygiene, and will be made uncomfortable if their general level of profanity is far outside of the household norm (in either direction). That's why you have your own home, where you get to make the rules for yourselves and the guidelines under which you'll entertain visitors.

If the house rules of acquaintances are too taxing, you don't visit. If the house rules of people important to you are taxing, you limit your visits. (Either number, or staying in a hotel.) You don't need to climb onto the coffee table and deliver an impassioned pean to Irish coffee.

@45 I don't think all house rules are unacceptable, but splitting up couples and asking them to act as if they are not one is. You'll also note that the mother requires more than just not sleeping together, but also not having displays of affection between the couple. If you're not willing to accept a couple, you shouldn't invite them over. Being a bad host is worse than not being a host. Hosts don't get to judge their guests.

It's different from, I don't want meat in my house or other things like that. I'm fairly okay with the dietary restrictions, because not wanting a thing in your house is somewhat alright, as long as you provide ways for people to obtain it not in your house. Let them go out for coffee/drinks and be polite about it, but not bring it into your home. But policing someone's relationship is not okay. You don't get to make the standards for which adult couples can be accepted as full couples and which get second class status in your home without accepting that you are giving a grave insult to those you are telling are second class couples without the rights you grant to other couples. And I think no house guest should accept such disrespect.

All of the other rules are, at least, imposed on all guests. No coffee in the house is for everyone. But not sleeping together is a special rule she only imposes on some couples.

I was in a similar situation with my significant other's Mormon family a few years ago. I didn't mind house rules; I respect they own the house, so they can make the rules.

What really chapped my ass was that the SO's mommy threw a hissy fit and sat me down for a "talk" because I hooked up with another man. We had an open relationship (he was a cuck), and I certainly didn't do it in her house. But in her mind, she had the right to demand monogamy while I was in the great state of Utah. She also accused me of doing it just to hurt her. Lady, I can assure you, the last thing on my mind when I'm having sex is a cantankerous old Mormon woman.

@27 I agree. If the niece is mature enough to get married then she's mature enough to learn how to navigate and manage her relationship with her parents. I understand the appeal of being the person who acts like the bridge between estranged family members, but the truth is a lot of them their estranged for a very good reason. And I'm not sure that's a role niece even wants him to play.

@32: Well, yes, but we are discussing the Letter Writer's situation, not all of female humanity. Clearly she is not the sort of person who thinks walking someone down the aisle is too anti-feminist, or she wouldn't have asked anyone to walk her down the aisle, let alone her uncle to do it in lieu of the father that she feared would boycott.

@27, @44 (and a few others): YMMV, but I am imagining Dad inviting his 58-year-old colleage from the Cincinnati office and colleague's girlfriend out for a ski week, but then trying to put them up in separate bedrooms. I think most parents feel freer to impose house rules on their own children than they do on non-related adults of their own age. I will agree that they might be just as uncomfortable with the idea, but I expect they would probably sidestep it by offering the hotel in the first place, rather than daring to try to play the family patriarch with their peers.

Were they dumb enough and rude enough to actually try that shit, I sincerely hope colleague laughs in their faces, gets a hotel of their choice, and then drops comments like "Sorry to arrive for brunch so late, but we couldn't get out the door of such a nice hotel without at least a quickie this morning," and "Oops, look at the time, gotta go, long drive ya know, and the Egyptian cotton sheets are so nice, aren't they, Violet?"

avast2006 @49, you may not be discussing all of humanity but LavaGirl @7 was making a solid, absolute declaration on behalf of 51% of the world’s 7 billion+ people. And that’s who BiDanFan @32 was responding to.

Ah Alison. And I owned that it was probably my projections at play.. Though I still don't see it as a Feminist issue. Even if a woman wanted her father to " Give her Away"..
The whole tradition of some marriages, is just that, a tradition. The White dress. It being the bride's day etc.. If looked at too closely, the Feminist hairs could bristle!

I recently remembered, to my horror, that I told my mother about my first sexual relationship—in highschool, with a 26 year-old teacher—BECAUSE she had been trying to encourage me to tell her if I was gay.

This was back in the mid 70s, so nobody was expected to have any kind of '__dar.' My chat with Mum was brief, and strange for both of us. I think having comfortable channels of communication in place already is what's going to help. Trying to become the sexually supportive empathically connected parent, from zero to sixty in one chat, is unrealistic. Start talking about all kinds of things, if you aren't already. Sexual identity SHOULD come up without too much staging, if it needs to come up.

LavaGirl 52@, in @7 you had not yet acknowledged that “every girl” is not you.I was responding to avast2006 @49. Avast2006 was responding to BiDanFan @32 apparently without reading the post[s] BiDanFan was responding to.

“Every girl” can have lots of reasons for not wanting her father to walk her down the aisle and hand her over to someone.

1) She feels as though she belongs to herself, not to her father or husband.
2) She doesn’t have a father.
3) She has several fathers and she doesn’t want to pick one.
4) She wants all her parental figures to walk her down the aisle together.
5) She hates her father.
6) She doesn’t want to get married.
7) She doesn’t want to marry in a christian church. Only 39.5% of women and girls are christian, which means 60.5% of women are not. Not being christian is only one reason not to be interested in being married in a christian church, but I won’t break this reason down any further,
8) She doesn’t want a public ceremony.

I’m sure you can think of many more reasons any one of the 3.5 billion+ women and girls on this planet might not have — or might not have had — putting on a white dress and being walked down an aisle by her father anywhere on ther radar. It’s a little like saying that every girl dreams of the morning her new mother-in-law will hang a bloodstained sheet out the window to publicly announce the bride’s virginity and the groom’s virility.

But anyway, yes, I’m aware that you retracted your earlier statement in @24. But in @51 I was not addressing you, I was addressing avast2006.

Oh dear.. I stand solemnly corrected.

Or is that I solemnly stand corrected..

@39: Whaaaa? What does feminism have to do with not wanting to participate in the "tradition" of a man "giving" his daughter to another man?

You're kidding, right?

Not saying that there are not women who consider themselves feminists but who also value this tradition. Those women would probably try to mentally distance the tradition of women being chattels from the joy of being next to her father at her wedding, but let's face it, it has a pretty sexist historical basis. Like @54 elaborated, there are a LOT of reasons "every girl" does not want this. My dad's not an arsehole, but when I got married, I walked up the aisle WITH MY HUSBAND. Because equality.

And @31, ah yes, so it is a female writer with a hetero boyfriend. In that case, also meh. My mother had that rule as well. It turned out that the magic age for being able to share a room with your unmarried partner in her house was 35. If Mom won't put THD up even in separate rooms, she's being ridiculous; but if THD is insisting she can't go two nights without a shag, then she needs to grow up.

@46: There's nothing in the letter about public displays of affection. Where again, I'd imagine that the Mormon house rules are not "no coffee for unmarried couples who live in sin elsewhere" but "no coffee for anyone." Appropriate levels of PDA, like appropriate levels of profanity, are one of those things that vary by household. (She mentions no R-rated movies. This really shouldn't matter a bit. Especially if they stay in a hotel with cable, so they can go back to their room and watch R-rated movies while sharing a bottle of wine. But if not, no one has ever been undone by having to forego watching R-rated movies for a weekend. Or week.) And I imagine the 50 year old from the Cincinnatti office would be shown to separate bedrooms for the weekend, and since they wished to have a civil business relationship going forward would shrug and slip giggling into each other's rooms.

My sister-in-law's parents, who are unreligious, had that ban on unmarried couples sleeping together. Applied to myself and my husband (dating, he lived with them during an internship). Applied to their daughters and the men they wound up marrying. (One openly lived together beforehand, just not while staying at their house; one secretly lived together with comical amounts of forwarded calls and re-aarranged subletters when mom and dad visit.) Everyone just shrugged and rolled with it and gets along quite well now, 30 years later. This is one of those family quirks that can function at the level of "yeah, never mention polar bears until Uncle Bob's gone to bed" or "Uncle Bob crushes my polar bear discussing opportunities."

Mormon mom has baggage; she's probably not going to put it down. Daughter can put down her own baggage (the side of this that's within her control) and treat this as "Yeah, we had to sneak into each other's rooms. For two nights! It was like high school, except I never got to do that stuff in high school."

As for judging people's relationship:

"We're in a relationship equivalent to marriage!"

"So why not just get married?"

(Insert lengthy list of reasons Dan gives for legalizing same-sex marriage, which includes the very real social distinction afforded "spouses" over "person I'm dating, like really seriously" along with all the things like not trying to argue that you are so next-of-kin when your partner lies dying in a hospital.)

If your reason to not get married is not that it's legally forbidden in your state or one of you has a spouse with dementia who hasn't recognized them in years or some similar pressing outside reason, then don't waste time arguing that your relationship is akin to marriage sometimes, but not akin to marriage at other times, and you can switch up which times those are.

@46 - I really very rarely can think of a way to improve on anything you have to say, much less disagree with you, but I think you are completely misreading the situation here. The LW elides the whole question of separate bedrooms in her mother's home.

This issue isn't denying the existence of the boyfriend (who mom accepts and likes, according to THD), or the relationship; it's the pre-marital sex aspect alone. And even then, that's solved by (as Dan often says of porn) some pretending on both parties' part: hiding it well, and not snooping for it.

However laughably bogus the sham perpetrated by that master con-man Joseph Smith may seem to everyone else (for example, as ridiculous as veganism and anti-vaxxer nonsense appear to me - these are matters of faith, not objective evidence), LW's mom is entitled to believe what she likes and receive at least superficial token respect for those beliefs in the privacy of her own home.

It is, in fact, exactly like dietary restrictions: If I were invited to your house, I would not bring meat into it, and I would refrain from mocking vegan-ism (or whatever selective list of dietary prohibitions you follow); you're hosting me, you're entitled to not be in-your-face-insulted. Mom's not entitled to legislate her beliefs in anyone else's home, and this is the flip side of that.

...and @50 - Not in my experience. Dad doesn't give his buddy/colleague a pass and enforce different rules for family in his house (which is what we were talking about). At a ski resort, or particularly where buddy is footing the bill for his half of the condo rental? Well...guess what? Buddy is paying the tab. Of course there are exceptions, and if Mormon mom is really regularly entertaining her heathen friends in heathen style in her own home while treating daughter differently, then daughter can call her out as a hypocrite (but still not demand a shared bed).

I'm solidly in Gen-X, and most of my personal experiences are with boomer-parents; it's about 50/50 whether or not they are OK with overt pre-marital sex. Most of them are happy to engage in the wishful pretending. In fact, in my entire life, in only one serious long term relationship where I stayed, un-married, as a guest of SO's parents, was this little fiction not required - and that included the home of some atheist liberals (the one pair who tolerated it were conservative Catholics...go figure). Once we were engaged (there was a ring and a date) Mrs. Finch's parents were willing to drop the charade. But respect is a two-way street.

I really mean it when I say that the money stuff matters...it does have a lot to do with being an independent autonomous person. If the LW absolutely must sleep with (and/or sex) her BF - cannot hold off for more than a week's visit - then she can book her own hotel of her own choosing and pay for it. You wanna be treated like an adult? Grow up and act like an adult (which means taking charge and responsibility for your own comfort and needs: acceptable hotel, coffee and sex when you are so horny you're going to go crazy).

@57.. The whole wedding number is just a game.. It is a tradition.. I'm sure the symbolic meaning of walking down the aisle with ones father- is deeper than just him " giving" one away.. And yes, like shaving ones body, wearing heels , or makeup.. Feminism can
Encompass many practices, that when analysed too closely don't seem just right. That however is not the point of Feminism is it?

@59 No, the mother is not denying the boyfriend nor the relationship, she is just making a very explicit statement that their relationship is inferior and to be treated unequally to other relationships that she views as superior and more acceptable. And that is an insult I don't think an adult should put up with.

@58 Also, my apologies. You are right that it does not mention PDAs. I really thought it did, but I must have mixed it up with something else in my mind. That is slightly better. But there is still a second-class status for unmarried couples. There are still relationships being treated as given full recognition and those given partial recognition. And personally, I do not consider that to be an acceptable thing to do.

My father had a "no unmarried couples sleeping in the same room" rule, and when my then-fiancé and I, who were living together, stayed at my parents' house, we were assigned separate bedrooms. It was silly, but it was their house and we just complied (we didn't even sneak into each other's rooms because we were only staying there for two nights and we were trying to respect the spirit as well as the letter of the rule--although perhaps that ability to not sneak into the other's room has something to do with our eventual divorce!). My childhood bedroom had bunk beds, extra-narrow twin bunk beds, and when we stayed one night shortly before the wedding, I asked if we might be allowed to share the room, with each of sleeping in our own bunk (indeed, it was difficult, not to mention treacherous, if you're talking about the top bunk--my bed--to share one of those beds). Considering the ridiculousness of the situation, the difficulty of any serious (or at least good) sex being able to take place, and the fact that the wedding date was within reach, my father relented.
It always made for a good story: having to beg to be allowed to sleep in separate bunks, promising to each stay in his/her own bed
(which promise we honored because it was a promise), even though in the rest of our lives we were fully independent adults.

But you know, whatever.

The homeowners have the right to set rules about conduct in their home. Those rules may be stupid, but if you don't want to abide by them, guests have the choice of staying in another place--a hotel which they, the grown-up guests pay for, thus demonstrating their independence--or of appearing to abide by the rules and then working around them (i.e. sneaking in to be together quietly, and making sure that everyone emerges from his/her own bedroom in the morning).

Or if you are unwilling to abide by the rules in the home and to avail yourself of those other two choices, you can not visit. That reaction seems a bit extreme to me, and really not worth it, but that's the last choice you have.

You can't choose to throw a tantrum and insist that the home owners pay for your chosen hotel.

Yeah, add me to the "why can't LW1 and her boyfriend stay with her mom in separate rooms?" contingent. If you want some nookie, just be discrete. Or rent your own damn hotel room, whereever you want. :shrug: Doesn't seem like a problem, either way.

If you were life partners who were barred by law from marrying, I can see the point of wanting your mom to let you be a couple in the home. But that's not the situation. And it's only for a visit.

And no coffee, no booze, no sexy movies in a Mormon household is just common courtesy. Really not an imposition at all. Go to the local diner or Starbucks or whatever for your caffeine fix. Or buy some nodoze and be discrete with it, if you have a really bad addiction.

@64 I would be in the same contingent if Daughter was 16. But Daughter is older, lives in a LTR, and deserves as much comfort as people who did the wedding extravaganza or little thing. Not everybody in a real relationship wants to do the wedding thing, or as Brassens puts it "I don't want us to sign our names on the same parchment" in his song "La non-demande en marriage".

@vennominon

Mlle Sissou projects herself into staying sweethearts into adulthood and eventually marrying him. And she doesn't want to be the sole breadwinner in her future couple ; so she'd like him to have better grades in order for him to still be eligible to marry her later... She's a straight-A student. She doesn't know yet that him being male will probably make him the biggest earner, grades be damned. The 'future' stepmother and I find her cute in her endeavors to not let him slip into computer-based scholarly do-nothingness.

But you're right, there's some controlling in there. I better keep an eye on her.

Ms Sissou - Having been somewhat like Mlle in my time (I was the sort of six-year-old who just assumed that all people my age played chess and bridge as a matter of course and that those who didn't would be eager and grateful to be taught), I'm tempted to offer you my sympathies. But at least there are plenty of people who thrive with someone like her for a partner.

I'm mainly interested in your counterpart, though. What seems cute now and what will seem cute after a decade of repetition often vary.

LW1, I don't like either Dan's solution or the solution of all the commenters here who seem to think you just eat your stupid mother's shit. You ask, "Is it fair to say, 'No, I'm not coming unless we can be ourselves and feel welcomed.'". The answer is yes. You clearly aren't welcome at her home, so have her visit you, or meet at a neutral location. I don't get why people let their families shit all over them like this, and I think the people suggesting that are insane.

A Mormon leader in 2009 said point blank that parents should shun cohabitating adult unmarried children ... So I think it's okay to cut Mormon mom some slack.

As to one of the commenters whose boyfriend's Mormon mom banned PDA ... I visited the future Mormon inlaws and they are the cuddliest people ever. My own Mormonish family is super prude compared to them.

We had sneaky sexy times and slept in separate rooms. NO APOCALYPSE ENSUED. I do fear being the beta couple though because his true blue Mormon brother is getting engaged/married the same time as us and doing the temple thing. Sigh ...

geez, who fucking cares if she wants you in different rooms. like you can't not sleep together for a few days? i've had this be requested a couple times...i gave a strange look and was like "whatever". it's not like you're both living there.

I don't see why a non-religious person should try to explain to devout Mormon why their lifestyle is "not sinful". You're arguing with a brick wall. A better tact would be to explain how your relationship is healthy and stable. The effort is still mostly futile, but at least it's on your terms.

I'm also surprised by the number of people who suggest actively betraying the mother by agreeing to the separate rooms but clandestinely having sex in her house when she has outright forbid it. I'm deeply against lying, and I find that countless times more disrespectful than insisting on sharing a room and not visiting if she does not agree. I prefer my agreements honest. I dislike cheating in virtually all forms. And I would not consider it at all acceptable to agree to be someone's guest with a no-sex clause and then to have sex in their house anyway. So many people seem to think the answer is mutual disrespect. The mother disrespects the couple by insisting they be judged by her personal standards, when it is not a host's place to judge one's guests' lifestyles, and the couple disrespects the mother by going behind her back to have sex they implicitly agreed not to have in her home. If they're going to treat each other that way, why visit at all? Better to not visit. And I agree with the possible options of inviting the mom to the child's home or meeting on neutral territory if some visits are desired.

@72
I also don't like the whole clandestine thing. It's so passive aggressive. I'd go with open and blatant disobedience (knowing full well that I might get kicked out) before I'd play those kinds of games. I don't think the mother's rules about them sleeping in the same bed deserve any respect whatsoever, but I wouldn't be inclined to drag my gf into such hostile negotiations with my parents.

uncreative: it's the difference between manners and morals. The Heathen Daughter isn't being immoral by drinking coffee or having sex with her partner, but she IS being rude by doing so in front of her mom. Sleeping in separate beds is a standard way to retain decorum.

Honestly, it's SO standard that I missed that there is a separate house rule against her having sex. It's a dumb rule, because I assume her mom has figured out that Heathen might possibly be doing that in her own home. But yes, if it would truly upset mom if they do it in mom's home, they should either refrain for a couple of days or rent a hotel room.