Comments on Tomorrow Morning: Seattle Protest Against Prop 8
Erm, I have no beef with your cause, but i somehow doubt the early hour will draw a huge crowd, and really, what good does it do to harass people who clearly don't control the purse strings for the Mormons and maybe just want to go to church on sunday?
be a tad smarter with your protesting please.
So let's get this straight: The No on 8 campaign was disorganized and ill-executed, and you think that pointing fingers is going to do any good? Back to the drawing board, man. Work on repealing this bullshit in the next election. Going to church on Sunday doesn't make you a bigot. You really need to step back and LOGICALLY think about how to ERASE discrimination from the constitution. Protesting and crying will get you nowhere. Neither will racist innuendo.
@1
That isn't the fucking point. With that attitude you're already downsizing the crowd.
@2
You're also missing the point. What about when it comes to our state? We need to burn our existence and support for our rights into their heads ASAP. Wait around for a prop to roll up, we'll get the same results.
"Going to church on Sunday doesn't make you a bigot."
...oh?
Finally, a good reason to go to church on a Sunday morning!
@1--The Mormon churched urged its members from around the nation to give tens (hundreds?) of thousands of dollars to Yes on 8. So, yes, individual Mormons DO have to answer.
irrishdew?
Ummm.... irrishdon't.
Will there be black Mormons there for us to protest? You know, for all of us gay racists that pointed out how the black community failed us.
@4- When it comes to our state, we do what the people in CA failed to do: Organize and lead a successful campaign against it. I think that Prop 8.'s passage is horrible, but I also believe in the fundamentals of the democratic process. You can't monday-morning quarterback the Mormon church's involvement. If you want to ACCOMPLISH, learn from what Obama and his team did by motivating and fundraising, not by harassing members of a religious group. The only thing that protesting the mormon church and race-baiting does is divide and alienate people. It is exactly the thing we should be fighting against.
OK, listen up protesters.
WEAR A SUIT AND TIE. Get all dressed up. You should look like you're mormon or at least conservative.
PLEASE DON'T MAKE FOOLS OF YOURSELVES BY LOOKING LIKE STEREOTYPICAL DIRTY FUCKING HIPPIES or the URBAN HIPSTERS you are.
They'll take you more seriously. I guarantee it.
NOTE: This tactic applies to all future protest situations, regardless of the cause. LOOK LIKE REPUBLICANS WHEN YOU ARE PROTESTING REPUBLICANS. It will confuse them.
Oh, just show up. Please.
I hope they bring extra signs. I hate being off-message.
8am?!
FINE. Fine. :grumble:
No wonder religious people are mean and nasty. They have to get up early on weekends.
whose bringing a noose?
Jesus H. Christ, it's just an ANNOUNCEMENT of a protest. Go or don't go. But don't tell people who haven't even gone to it yet that it's beside the point or poorly attended.
And, P, what exactly do you mean when you blat the generality that the No on 8 campaign was disorganized and ill-executed? How about some evidence? Do you live in California? How many hours did you spend on the phone banks? How about on election day? How many polling places did you visit all day long from 6 am to 8:30 pm to talk to voters? How many elementary school vice principals did you talk to at 6:45 am? What percentage of your income over the last few months did you donate? Who exactly was disorganized to you? What did they do that was not organized? Did you object to the snacks? That night at the phone bank in San Diego when they ran out of bottles of water? WHAT??
I would be the first to list the stuff I thought No on 8 missed the boat on. For one, they almost never let the fact of real peoples' lives show, and they were far too cautious about the fact that gay men and lesbians (gasp) were the citizens who were getting married to each other at those "same sex" weddings. And the No on 8's, myself included, don't know our Bible stories well enough. We don't know crap about the real history of marriage and the so-called foundations of society. We can't hold a cohesive conversation about the differences between marriage as a civil contract and marriage as a religious sacrament. We don't make a strong enough case that 18 year old boys aren't going to just up and decide it would be fun to marry another boy just because they heard that it was an "option." We have a lot to learn.
Personally I'm getting myself educated about that shit. I'm going to be ready next time around to talk to them on their own terms in person.
Give us some goddamn credit. And I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm a straight woman married to a man if my CA marriage certificate is to be believed. No one is coming after my relationship or my household. I'm just a really pissed off California resident. And I'm going to take some positive intelligent action. And go to some protests. So keep your snarky shit to yourselves.
If people in Seattle want to get up and head for that protest tomorrow, congratulations and go for it. Tell the Mormons "Have a nice day" from me. The rest of you shut the hell up until you can report something smart and productive.
i agree with #1 and #2; your protest, in seattle, isn't going to change the outcome in california. neither is it going to prevent a similar initiative from showing up on washington ballots. work within the system to get laws passed that protect your rights.
harassing church goers, who you have no proof did or didn't send money to support the campaign, is just as small minded as the people who put prop 8 on the ballot in the first place. stop the candy-assed whining and do something constructive.
and lusk, NO, going to church on a sunday doesn't make you a bigot. just like four years at an expensive daycare called college doesn't make you any less of a dumbass.
We'll need puppets and a drumming circle. Could somebody please call the Socialists so they can be there to hand out pamphlets urging the release of Mumia Abu-Jamal?
FYI Dan or David or anyone at the Stranger that picks up these posts; I've made some calls already and will spear head a GLBT citizens and supporters community gathering to discuss what has been flying back and forth here on the SLOG. We know that WA will be facing the same enemies when our legislature pushes for civil equality. We need to have everyone get all their anger out of the way now so that we can march forward and hopefully defeat the referendum that will come when we're granted civil equality.
"The rest of you shut the hell up until you can report something smart and productive."
I AM DOING SOMETHING, I've made calls today leaving voice mail asking for LGBT and other groups to help me organize a series of STATE WIDE gathering/meetings/discussion groups/other similar meetings to vent, get mad, cry, get angry, AND THEN GET ORGANIZED. I'll do my dam best to make something happen so that When the shit hits the fan here in WA we'll be covered. STAY TUNED.
According to the Chronicle web app, there were a grand total of *4* Seattle folk who donated to support prop 8. $850 between them. No idea whether any of those 4 are Mormons.
Perhaps we need a protest to ensure that the numbers are larger next time around?
@16
Listen, you fucking retarded idiot, this isn't about the changing the outcome in California. This is about addressing it. It isn't about changing a similar initiative, it's about being ready for it. Work within the system? Look at how the system works, shithead. THEY have been protesting us. Not even just gays, the entire left. THEY have been standing outside Planned Parenthood. THEY have been going door to door, spreading fabrications and downright lies to support their bigoted cause. THEY have worked to get a prop in line to ban gay marriage. Protesting IS part of the system, and throwing a prop on the ballot that supports our cause will get the same results WITHOUT protest. It's the same damn initiative, only the sides are switched in the wording, and it won't sound as discriminatory. The one, Prop 8, the one that read like pure discrimination, still passed. What makes you think ours, the one that will sound like fighting for equality, will? The majority favors the discrimination.
So by your fucking dumbass logic we should just throw our arms up in the air, drop them, walk home and make some fucking Campbells soup for our kids or ourselves.
You are the reason progress has a bar. Thanks.
@20:
This isn't specific to Prop 8!
Churches, and religious people, get a free pass to spew bigotry and hate because it's part of their "faith", and we're not supposed to "question" peoples' "faith". We need to start calling bullshit on this, loudly, right now. They're coming after Washington faggots too, promise. Enough! This is a secular country, dammit. Making noise will help to keep it that way.
For those of you who like to protest at a more decent hour also protests happening at the Bellevue Branch at 1:00.
End the tax exempt status of the church. http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/how-to-file-an-irs-501c3-complaint/
LDS Protest Naysayers, Listen The Fuck Up
Changing Mormon minds is hardly the point - Getting on the news to show EVERYFUCKINGBODY else who paid for the lies that scared people into voting against equality is the point.
Protest in your own way, or don't - but stop saying we can't convince the Mormons they are wrong. Or saying that the prop passed, there's nothing that can be done. Of course we can't change it- but we can tell EVERYFUCKINGBODY else what happened and who paid for it.
Non-Seattle news:
California people, go to the big rally in Sacto tomorrow, West Steps, 1-4:00 . I'll be there. I'm the big guy, tattoos, remnants of a black hawk. Male pattern baldness sucks.
@24
Correct, sir!
who's bringing a noose redux
@11 - I agree. The only reason the hippie protests of the '60s had any effect was because the look was a frightening dismissal of the status quo. Now all it means is disorganization. I plan to wear a suit and tie, so it at least appears that serious, organized people are doing something.
Even if the Seattle Mormons didn't sneak across the border into California (or Arizona) and get this measure on the ballot, even if none of them went on a mission to California (and Arizona) to help campaign for these propositions, even if they didn't donate money (ha!) didn't one of those bat-shit fundie bitches say their successes in California, Arizona, Florida, and Arkansas inspire them take their H8 campaign to every state and pass anti-LGBT legislation until Queer is outlawed, just like "the good old days" when teh buttsecks could get you sent to prison or a mental institution. So yes, get your ass out there Seattle and protest at the LDS temple and every other fundie church in town. Let them know you want them to keep their religion out of your government, and their laws out off your bodies!
p.s. Any pro-birth control, pro-choice, pro-sex (that isn't missionary position, within traditional wedlock, and for breeding babies), pro-sex ed folks out there had better realize they're coming after your rights next...when they force you to convert to their real Christianity.
Confidential to Sargon Bighorn:
Yes you are doing something smart.
Accordingly you are permitted to report because you are doing something smart and productive. Thank you.
I go to Seattle and visit people sometimes and if I were ever there when there was an event I'd come right over.
"Pro-sex (that isn't missionary position, within traditional wedlock, and for breeding babies)"
This means you too straight people.
Gee, my wife sure is ticked about this! But then, so am I.
Fight the good fight, people!
Whats wrong with missionary?
To the organizers: thanks for organizing. Will be there.
screechy mannish women with bullhorns
@13,
My father's wife got up at 5 am every day, including Sundays. She was mean, nasty, and very religious. Having known her, I'm convinced that people like that are more likely not to be able to enjoy life or take it easy even for a moment, let alone sleep in.
This oughtta ruin their sunday morning church experience. Awesome.
As a gay man who was raised Mormon, I can tell you that LDS tithing-payers need to think about where there money is going. This isn't misdirected anger; Mormon individuals are one finger on the hand of a giant, ugly beast. These sweet, "innocent" tithing-payers funded a slimy campaign throughout CA and AZ. My sign will read "Do you know where your tithing goes?"
Of course, scream and shout at the old people and the children.
FYI, the Seattle Stake, Mormon center for the region, is the least homophobic part of the Mormon Church in the world ... lots of very confidental private outreach to gays, many gays attend ... Mormons have NEVER testified against gay rights in Olympia, ever. Plenty of others, including Catholic Council of Bishops.
The Bellevue Temple gets picketed by Fundies all the time ... be sure to join the Holy Rollers and other assorted Death to Gays Christians, Dominionists they are called.
And you all think this is a great / good bridge building tactic with the Black Church?
Few thinking caps working today, I would rather boycott ski slopes in Utah. $$$ talk.
Of course, the KKK used to burn churches all the time in the Old South, in modern times with Sunday school kids in them ... some powerful negative images at play here.
And with this kind of offense, in an election for gay rights, you could not carry King County, let alone any other population center.
Cool down, the strategy is education, with positive messages, and the next generation.
I plan to be there despite the early hour, looking relatively nice. I'm a married hetero but I'd prefer to live in a country with equal rights for all. The bigots blocking that ideal deserve vociferous opposition.
Any ideas for signs?
Who's handling the protests at Mt Zion and at St. James?
#37
From what I hear, all parts of the group of churches we faced on the other side in Calif. asked members to send money.
The first million dollar check came from the conservative Catholics, a cool million from the Knights of Columbus.
As you most likely know, Mormons have been openly opposed to gay marriage from the first election, Hawaii many years ago.
I am not sure the faithful care to much about what you or I think about how the money game goes.
Telling them about the gay family they have is a much better communication tactic, in my opinion.
The West is full of ex Mormon gay men, we may outnumber the lapsed Catholics, and certainly have better sex .... somehow ex Mormons get past the residual guilt better ... and have bigger dicks ... and unending vigor ... and still smile a lot ...
Jeez... Couldn't you arrange a protest at a more decent hour?
Okay. Fine. I'll be there. *grumble, grumble, grumble*
I'll be the one looking mildly hung over and in desperate need of caffeine. I may or may not have a pitchfork.
For fuck's sake, this is a bad time. They're there all damn day. Can't we go after brunch and mimosas?
People everywhere will protest next weekend too. Sloggers please help get the word out to folks all over the US.
Do you realize that:
A) Church at the Seattle Stake Center doesn't start til 9, so you will be there by yourselves?
B) Most everyone walking into that building agrees with you to at least some extent? The only way you could have a more sympathetic group of Mormons would be if we had a meetinghouse ON Cap Hill! Some have stopped paying their tithing and/or given up their temple recommends over this issue.
I've been to church with a couple of the congregations that meet in this building, and you are really preaching to the choir, so to speak. Even if their Stake President asked them to contribute to a similar cause (he wouldn't, I know him and he's cool like that), they wouldn't.
#45
Yes and yes and yes. I pointed out some of the same factors above.
In typical Seattle fashion, we have our own version of things.
The hot heads can do their thing, but, the scorn and ridicule from Greater Seattle Progrssive will be hanging in the air.
Education, the next generation, and building bridges. The formula, and no other.
Little known fact, Idaho beat an anti-gay initiative many years ago. Why? The Idaho Mormon Church stayed neutral.
Mormons are cool with detailed and strong civil unions, but balk at the word marriage. A line in the sand for them. And don't expect that to change soon.
Reading that today the Catholic Bishop of SLC affirmed solidarity with Mormons on strong opposition to gay marriage. Gee, isn't it nice to have Catholics and Mormons forge stronger ties? A first ever love fest.
My head is hurting and I was so happy to see Obama elected.
I often go to a small Seattle mostly black church that is almost all gay - too cool - Sojourner Truth.
My father has friends who work with the presidency of the Mornmon Church and they are horrified by the attention. Look, they've been running a good scam they don't want their members to question their beliefs and stop paying 10% of their income to them. This is fantastic! The Mormon Organization preys upons its members and spreads its hate with their padded wallets.
um, not ALL Mormons draw that line in the sand. I, personally, will not be happy until there is total equality. (see my link). Not all of us see what others do in their relationships as somehow threatening our "traditional marriages" (Lord help me, after this electoral season, just typing that makes me gag.) In fact, some of us are rather perplexed as to how it's possible for gay marriage to threaten straight marriage. Or any marriage to threaten any other marriage. If my husband only married me because he couldn't marry a man, we're doomed anyway, I'd venture!
As another poster put it, as a woman married to a man in Washington state, I technically didn't have a "horse in the race" in CA's Prop 8. Except, you know, as a human being. Tuesday night was definitely bittersweet in our home.
"If you really want to protect traditional marriage get your a$$ out of California, and get it down to Short Creek. Put your own glass house in order before you start casting stones at mine."
Mormons will understand this reference perfectly.
Okay, wow, I'm so backed up on my Slog, I have 200+ to still read from this week. *shame* But, I -JUST- read this, and HELL FUCKING YES was my instant reaction. I will be there. It may not be promptly at 8 a.m. but I will be there. Fuck. Yes.
#47
you sound utterly stupid.
all churches ask for money, and many, many do a tithe. my ex wife is some kind of devout fundie now and pays serious tithes, and is surely not mormon.
you want to talk mega bucks, loot, sorry, look at the Catholic money machine ... duh.
I also know a coupl of mormon families and they say they pay what they can and it is cool and not even close to ten per cent
my faith used to be in human nature, beginning to wonder. bashing people on bad information is not cool for me... feels like a mob mentality
CorasMama, while you may not hold the opinion your church holds, your church still holds that opinion. Your church is an organization that pushes a religious agenda. When we address the church we aren't addressing the every member of its community. Your personal belief do not change the stance of the church you are a member of. In fact, you should be asking yourself why you are a member of a church who's doctrine you do not agree with.
yes Henry, the leaders of organized religions, who live in luxury off the backs of their members and use their money to push their personal agenda, which is largely to maintain their cash cows, have your best interest in mind. wake up.
Also, there did not seem to be an event on facebook, so I just added one. Please RSVP and tell your friends!
A suggestion-- picketing at the church tomorrow is fine, but to hit them where it hurts, and to get more publicity, find out if BYU sports teams will be in your area for any events with local colleges, and go picket at the events. It'll make the host college reluctant to rehost them, and be more visible than standing in front of a church at 8 AM on Sunday. (ANd they probably are there all day tomorrow.) One reason the church finally gave the priesthood to the blacks is that colleges started refusing to play BYU teams because of protests against the mormon church's discrimination against black male members. Picket their churches and they just feel they're standing up against religious persecution. Threaten to take away BYU's chances at Bowl games, etc, now that hurts.
Thats a fantastic suggestion. Force their prophet Thomas S Monson to have a "revelation", like the one they had to allow African American's into their church.
And the Mormon Church got themselves into this by financing hate. Hey guys Moromon related sign suggestions from an ex-mormon:
Financers of Hate
Time for a new revelation MONSON!
I am a child of God too.
Mormons love chickens more than gays.
James - get a clue.
I have never in my life been part of any church.
But my church is not bashing people who do go to church.
By the way, the Northwest has the lowest Church membership in America.
Bashing churches will be more fun in the Bible Belt.
Are you preaching to me?
#55
BYU rarely does anything in the Seattle area - different leagues.
I think we need to boycott Utah Ski resorts - that works, $$$$ talks in America.
Good week to do it. It's a regional (in Mormon parlance: Stake) conference Sunday morning. Church actually starts at 10 AM. Usually it starts at 9.
I was simply stating my opinion that organized religions are businesses built off the money of its members and obviously political animals.
If they are going be involved politically they should loose their tax exempt status as a church, AND they should expect to hear from angry people who are finally fed up!
I think the truth about organized religion is pretty transparent, I can't understand how even a relatively aware person can't see it..
AND!! I'm tired of them being able to hide behind that farce, and continue to discriminate, and fund discrimnation. IM FED UP!
It took me being so happy for Obama and then waking up the next morning to this. And its set alot of us up that are tired of discrimination. AND YOU CANT HIDE YOUR HATE BEHIND ITS MY RELIGION ANYLONGER. If its your religion and you remain in that religion then you are a bigot. A new age dawned this week.
Can anybody clarify what time church services (or whatever Mormons do) actually start? Because if they aren't until 10am, I'm very unclear on why we'd want to be there at 8am. Eh?
Even if the church service isn't until 9 or 10, won't we still want to be there before everyone arrives for church, anyway? The extra time will let us get set up, say hi and maybe send someone for coffee before it's time to be angry.
I would add that I AM a Mormon, and I support equal rights for the gay community - COMPLETELY. There are LOTS of us. Please don't generalize the entire church community the way so many in the church community generalize you. I will be at that meeting tomorrow (not as a protester, but as a church goer), and I would hate for my fellow "liberal" Mormons to feel like they are being lumped in to one short-sighted wing of the church. Now, if you want to protest the church LEADERSHIP's position on Prop 8, I fully understand. So go to Salt Lake City.
@all who are pooh-poohing the effect of the Mormon Church:
The Mormon Church sent a letter to each church that was read during services telling members to donate. The net effect was that $15 million was donated to the Yes side, which was roughly half of its budget. 40% of all out of state donations were from Utah. The Mormon Church bankrolled this proposition that stole the civil rights from tens of thousands of people. Anyone who believes in civil rights is fully justified in protesting this hateful organization.
Hell, yeah 67! And 66, sorry that you are an non-bigot in a bigoted religious organization that's using the money you're giving to "god" to preach and fund HATE. So, see you on Sunday! My sign will read, "Hey, Mormons! Get out of my ass!"
@20 What about Mike Murray from Redmond who gave 100K?
http://www.californiansagainsthate.com
#67
Just don't leave out the Catholics who have had far more influence to stop gay rights than any Mormon effort - bashing the little Mormon Church instead of Catholics and Southern Baptists is hard to understand.
There is a Knights of Columbus bldg. on C. Hill - go there as well.
I am sure the current VERY anti gay Pope is having a jolly time seeing this.
There are Christian Dominionists who think the death penalty should be invoked for being gay - far more horrible than being on the other side of the marriage issue.
Welcome to the fight - Gays have had to battle ALL the right wing churches for 30 years..... and it is not going to change any time soon.
@65
I find it easier to be angry before I've had my coffee, actually.
suedehead
Your private support is meaningless if you do nothing about it. Your church continues to fund hate, and you claim to support gay people, yet you remain a member of an organization that funds hate.
While the leadership of your church is the main target, you should consider your decision to look the other way while this organization you belong to continues to fund hate. Think of it as a sin of omission.
Henry, we are energized because people have said as long as we can remember that a black president wasnt possible. Well it is, and our rights are in sight as well.
This quote from Brigham Young would look nice on a protest sign:
"Marriage is a civil contract. You might as well make a law to say how many children a man shall have, as to make a law to say how many wives he shall have." (Journal of Discourses, 11:268-9)
Hey all join me and file to revoke the LDS Churches non-profit status:
http://lds501c3.wordpress.com/2008/10/29/how-to-file-an-irs-501c3-complaint/
@ #70,
Yes, the Catholics and Baptists have done more to ram their idiotic religious beliefs down everyone's throats than the Mormons. Protesters should be out in front of their churches carrying "Separation of Church And State" too!.
hey, the crowd out here is pretty small. I'm gonna go get coffee for 40...get OUT HERE, bitches!
Gays..please get militant! Arm yourselves! The Pink Panthers! Please?
Are people still out there protesting? I wanted to join but not sure if it's over...
Are people still out there protesting? I wanted to join but not sure if it's over...
Are people still out there protesting? I wanted to join but not sure if it's over...
Are people still out there protesting? I wanted to join but not sure if it's over...
After the protest, consider completing and submitting this pre-filled IRS form 13909 (tax-exempt organization complaint referral). More details and a blank 13909 are also available. If you're a member of the church, you may want to check the "I am concerned that I might face retaliation or retribution if my identity is disclosed" box.
This rule about non profits and tax status has been widely held to be about candidates, NOT issues. And, anyway, the big money was donated by members not Church Central.
Good luck, won't work.
And it is possible, under a strong supreme court ruling on free political speech, all such restrictions could fall.
I think some of the conservative churches are looking for this fight and they think they will end up with no rules on their ability to speak in any regard. Speaking and donating are inter changable, your spending money via donation is free speech.
The neo non beievers here seem not to comprhend how much America loves and supports and attends its churches.
Picking a fight with every major domination united on the other side, and they would unite, would be a daunting task and is doomed to failure.
The IRS took on the Moonies a few years back on tax issues, all other churches came to the Moonie side and the IRS lost the test completely.
You all are loving to kick Mormon butt, but your effort will feel like a threat to all churches, hence they will stick together BIG time. Imagine a wall of the best attorneys and legal profs. in the US. That is what will emerge. Most churches run Law Schools, so thier supply of quality legal help is endless. Plus they have the money to spend hundreds of millions on their side.
Again, good luck. Of course, Pride Foundation could not donate either under your proposal.
You guys are shooting yourselves in the foot. If most people thought gays were everyday benevolent people who didn't harm anyone, they are now changing their minds.
Ask yourselves if the other side would be engaging in vast violent protests and riots if Prop 8 had lost? Very probably not.
Marriage is not the real issue here. It's acceptance. And you can't bludgeon people into accepting you.
Linda: Maybe not, but there's little cost to filling in one's name and dropping the form in the mail -- five minutes and 42 cents, in my case. I'll leave determination of wrongdoing up to the IRS. It's a complaint form, not an affidavit.
On the form, we're checking:
James,
In case you didn't know, the Mormon Church has an unpaid clergy. Money obtained from tithing does not make anyone within this church rich, so loss of tithing money from "dissidents" is not going to cause anyone any pain whatsoever -- except perhaps the recipients of the church's humanitarian efforts -- earthquake victims and such.
Tithing goes to fund church buildings, temples, schools, and their worldwide humanitarian efforts.
Noted on the lds501c3 blog:
Assertion: The Church did not directly donate to organizations attempting to influence Proposition 8. Response: False. Campaign finance records show that an in-kind donation of $2,078.97 from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was made on Oct. 25 to ProtectMarriage.com. (Salt Lake Tribune, 29 October 2008.) Assertion: Ballot initiatives aren’t legislation or a political candidate, and therefore aren’t covered by the statute. Response: False. Ballot initiatives are indeed legislation, and “no substantial part of the activities of [a tax-exempt entity may be] carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation” according to Internal Revenue Code Title 26, §501. In related law, §4911(e)(2) (regulating political activity by certain non-church charitable organizations) states:The term “legislation” includes action with respect to Acts, bills, resolutions, or similar items by the Congress, any State legislature, any local council, or similar governing body, or by the public in a referendum, initiative, constitutional amendment, or similar procedure.Assertion: Because the donation the Church made directly was so small, its activities were not substantial. Response: False. The interpretation of the phrase “no substantial part” is not based solely on monetary or percentage terms. See Rosemary Fei’s Introduction to Lobbying by Charities and Joanna Pressman’s Legislative and Political Activity Campaign Limitations.
Phil,
You need to understand a couple of things about your tax petition.
First, the Mormon Church did not fund Prop 8. Individual Mormons contributed to it. Individual Mormons also contributed to the opposition.
Second, Prop 8 was a minuscule part of the Church's operations. When placed alongside the operations of a worldwide church and several universities, Prop 8 did not consume a significant part of its time -- and consumed none of its resources.
Save your stamp.
#86
I read the form. Here is my take:
GLBT folks and all their supporters need to rethink the education effort on the subject on a massive scale. We need to find messages that work and get aboard all across the country.
Sort of a giant P-Flag talking project. This includes our "good churches" such as MCC and United Churches of Christ.
Be a bit content that real gains have happened, Conn. and Mass, and maybe soon New York.
They have beat us one state at a time over 15 years. Now we need to work one state at a time.
Perhaps it is time to highly tout the Mass. success - all good - works fine - etc. We do have proof that all the negative are phony lies, let's use it better.
Also, need to stay off ballots. Our enemies have beat us at voting in almost 30 elections in approx. 30 states.
What is this about SFO not voting much at all, and helping to the defeat by low turnout?
What the hell?? Can someone explain, we cannot blame the other side if we are complacent and really can't be bothered to defend our rights.
Short term pickets are fine, but, the long term should be a boycott of Utah snow - two or three years of big losses will be a long term national story.
Don't ski in tainted powder. I think that is a good idea.
Eric,
You may be right. I'll wager my 42 cents on your being wrong. That's for the IRS to decide after they receive my and others' form 13909.
Reportedly, although most of the $20 million Mormons spent on funding California Proposition 8 was donated by church members at the request of a man they believe to be a prophet, the church did spend about $2000 on the campaign. See my previous comment for details and citations.
The "in-kind" donation was to refund Prop 8 for a plane ticket that Prop 8 purchased for a Church official to visit them. The Church refunded Prop 8 for this ticket purchase.
If you are going to seek the aggression of government upon the Mormon Church, I hope you won't mind if the aggression of government is called down upon the tax-exempt groups that opposed Prop 8. That would include a number of non-profit gay organizations as well as churches that opposed Prop 8.
Look, you are in this mess because of a few litigious people. Gays that sued churches that did not wish to marry them exposed a threat to religious liberty. They could have been content to seek out churches that blessed such unions, but no. They have a "right" to not get their feelings hurt....
Is it going to be gay marriage liberty or religious liberty?
Well, there is only a conflict because marriage is not the proper role of government period. Civil unions are the domain of government.
BTW, why aren't you protesting Obama? He doesn't think gay marriage is so hot either. Kinda wishy washy that guy....
Phil - the Seattle Pride Foundation donated more than you suggest the Mormon First Presidency donated directly. I think $2,500.00 and emails asking folks to send who are Pride donors. I think they reported 74 of their donors sent money as a result of the Donate To Stop 8 Project - Matching donation money in there too. I was pleased at their effort and gave a friend 100.00 to send on for me.
And many more GLBT non profits nation wide donated on our side. They have been well advised I am sure that there would be no problems.
IRS has one rule fits all - and I think you are making assumptions not based on good tax advice and past rulings.
Give it a try, sure, it feels good, but will go no where. American churches survive these sorts of challenges very well I suspect.
Eric & Linda:
You raise compelling arguments. The person who started this campaign writes:
First, submission of an unprecedented number of complaints may convince the IRS to investigate the matter and clarify the “no substantial part” test and whether churches’ instructing their members to engage in substantial activity to influence legislation means those members act as agents of the church. Under certain tests, an expenditure of $20 million qualifies as “substantial”, and such an expenditure by church members at the direct instruction of church leaders may constitute prohibited activity. And, are members of a church, who attend services, donate money to the church, and obey church leaders in conducting their personal lives, agents of that church when they engage in substantial activity to influence legislation at church leaders’ instructions? These gray areas would benefit from clarification, and a large number of complaints may lead to that.
Second, a massive peaceful outcry against the Church’s activities may convince Church leaders that its political activities have a negative impact on the Church’s reputation in the world. The LDS church works hard to maintain a positive, uplifting image, through its humanitarian work, the appearance of its buildings, the conduct of its members, and even uplifting television and radio advertising.
By maintaining respectful but vocal discourse opposing the Church’s political activities, particularly in a way that demonstrates that the Church’s reputation has been damaged, Church leaders may be less likely to engage in political activism in the future.
Finally, sufficient interest in this activity could lead to support for amending state and federal regulation of tax-exempt entities. Perhaps this does not merit revocation of the LDS Church’s 501(c)(3) status today, but perhaps the Church’s activities have highlighted the issue in an unprecedented way. Now, there may be enough support to change tax law so that endorsement of and opposition to ballot initiatives are prohibited, just as these entities are prohibited from endorsing or opposing a particular candidate.
Phil - conservative churches, the classic Fundies are eager for this fight before the Supreme Court.
They think all regulations about what they do will fall. In their current theory, the total separation wall works both ways.
They might be right. Free speech is enshrined in the Constitution, recently extended to political money and many other areas. Why do churches, supposedly independent from the Govt, why do they have political activity restricted because of an IRS status rule?? Those rules in effect are a resriction on church free speech in those arguments.
Stay tuned. I suspect the Supreme will avoid this at all cost, but, conservative churches have strong feelings on this already, and are ready for the fight.
I attended church today at the Seattle Stake Center where a number of protestors met. I expected it and was a little surprised to see such a small group.
You should know that you will never find a group of Mormons more sympathetic to your cause than here in Seattle. We had NOTHING to do with Prop 8. In fact, most of us worked to convince CA family members to vote no. Our local church leaders would never encourage us to support such a ballot initiative. I know it sounds odd, but Seattle Mormons are quite progressive (relatively speaking of course).
You have the support of many, many, many Seattel Mormons who are working from the 'inside' of the Church to right the wrong that was committed in CA with Prop 8. It will take time; we're dealing with an older generation who thinks differently, but we are trying to change opinions.
A gallery of photos from the protest this morning in Seattle.
Feel free to distribute to spread the news. Equal rights now!
People in California should start protesting straight marriages. If homosexuals in California can't marry, why should they stand idly by and watch straight couples tie the knot? Frankly, if enough high profile marriages are disrupted people will realize how ridiculous prohibiting gay marriage really is. Just imagine how great it would be to have a bride, on her wedding day, sobbing because her marriage has been ruined by the protests.
Think outside the box. The majority of Californians opposed gay marriage, not just Mormons. Protest should target more than just that group.
Here is a list from mormonfor8.com the yes before the $$ amount is for yes they are "LDS Members" So there you go. Man wish I had 100,000 to just tithe away like Mike M. from Redmond.
Oh though that's right they get paid back from the church of later day haters.....
DONALD P BELLEVUE WA / 98004 WA $50,000.00 10/28/2008 Yes $50,000.00
.
DEBORAH BELL BINGEN WA / 98605 WA $2,500.00 9/12/2008 $0.00
.
LARRY W. L KENNEWICK WA / 99338 WA $1,000.00 8/29/2008 Yes $1,000.00
.
MARIE W LONGVIEW WA / 98632-4914 WA $1,000.00 9/20/2008 Yes $1,000.00
.
JACOB WALDRON MAPLE VALLEY WA / 98038 WA $1,000.00 10/20/2008 $0.00
.
MARK A. YOKERS NORMANDY PARK WA / 98166 WA $1,000.00 10/31/2008 $0.00
.
CLYDE C OLYMPIA WA / 98502 WA $1,000.00 9/19/2008 Yes $1,000.00
.
MIKE M. REDMOND WA / 98053 WA $100,000.00 10/28/2008 Yes $100,000.00
.
WILLIAM F. ZIPRICK SPOKANE WA / 99208 WA $2,000.00 11/1/2008 $0.00
.
BRYANT L ADAMS TUMWATER WA / 98512 WA $5,000.00 10/29/2008
oops that web site is mormonsfor8.com
Toms:
What would make you think that contributors to Prop 8 would be paid back from the LDS Church...? It doesn't work like that. Contributing to Prop 8 is just over and above the call of duty, which is tithing and fast offerings. No pay backs....
Toms:
You are of course free to patronize whatever businesses you choose, but how would you feel if contributors to the anti-8 campaign were targeted for boycotts? Just curious....
Is your goal to persuade the public to change their minds about gays and gay marriage -- or to convince them to dig in their heels?
Religion is responsible for a lot of the problems the world faces, and is never the solution. Religion appeals to several groups, the uneducated, the superstitious and the politically ambitious who realize this country is made up chiefly of the uneducated and superstitious. Sadly, if you're enlightened, intelligent and evolved in your thinking and willing to admit it, you haven't a prayer of being elected dogcatcher. Keep your assinine religious beliefs to yourself and out of public policy. Imagine the mormons weighing in on a marriage issue. They one of the sillier religions. We've got a long way to go...many people in this country thought one of them should be president. Absolutely terrifying.
JOIN YOUR COMMUNITY IN SUPPORT OF MARRIAGE EQUALITY AND TO PROTEST PROPOSITION 8 AND THE INJUSTICE THE LDS (MORMON) CHURCH HAS SUPPORTED!
Join the RALLY starting at 12:00 Noon, at the Volunteer Park stage, with key note speakers, and community choruses. A march to Westlake Center follows the rally.
Following the march, a protest against the LDS/Mormon Church will commence at 5:00PM at the LDS/Mormon Temple in Bellevue, WA. (Located across the street from the Bellevue Community College.
Address: 2808 148th Avenue SE Bellevue, WA)
For more information, please visit the following groups:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=35445293690
http://groups.myspace.com/ProtestProp8
Questions? Call 206-774-7805
> > > Essential information missing from the post above:
The DATE and TIME of the protest rally is Saturday, November 15, 2008, 12 noon.