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Saturday, November 8, 2008

The Irony Is Apparent to Some…

posted by on November 8 at 12:42 PM

sherffius_gay.jpg

But not to others.

And, no, this isn’t about blaming the blacks—or Latinos. But we can’t bask in the symbolism of Barack Obama’s election without also reflecting on the symbolism of Prop 8’s approval. Black and Latino votes alone weren’t enough to pass Prop 8; that’s not the point. A large numbers of minority voters helped to strip another minority—a minority that with millions of African American and Latino members—of their basic civil rights and helped to write discrimination and bigotry into California’s constitution. Attention must be paid. This isn’t about blame; it’s about diagnosing the problem and beginning to address it.

RSS icon Comments

1

this makes my head hurt. i don't understand. it seems very simple to me. is it just that marriage is seen from a religious/traditional point of view? is that the hold up? or is it that prop 8 supporters actually hate gays? i must be missing something.

Posted by douglas | November 8, 2008 12:53 PM
2

This is what I mean when I say religion is the enemy of freedom. Self righteous religionists don't perceive the injustice they inevitably impose.

Posted by Vince | November 8, 2008 12:55 PM
3

The Salt Lake Tribune isnt fit to to wipe my ass with. I'd sooner read a copy of the Weekly

Posted by Jonathan | November 8, 2008 12:57 PM
4

It's like they want their own taste of discrimination. They've dealt with it, now they want to deal it. Bigotry is fuuun!

Posted by Mr. Poe | November 8, 2008 12:58 PM
5

P.S. Melissa Etheridge has said she won't pay California taxes. "Taxation without representation" Now that's a plan I could get behind.

Posted by Vince | November 8, 2008 1:01 PM
6

You know, Dan, a lot of people forgave you when you admitted you were wrong for supporting the war. But this time, when you wake up and realize it's a mistake to wage this race-baiting, divisive campaign, nobody is going to feel like forgiving yet another of your hysterical, half-cocked, half-assed tantrums.

Posted by elenchos | November 8, 2008 1:07 PM
7

I don't buy it. There aren't enough black people in California to use them as the excuse Prop 8 won. There are far more white voters who think they can tell gays and lesbians how to live.

Posted by idaho | November 8, 2008 1:12 PM
8

African Americans/Hispanics were to the Prop 8 vote as Ralph Nader was to the 2000 election.

Posted by Julie in Chicago | November 8, 2008 1:18 PM
9

This quote:

"Legally, I don't want that for the children. They will be confused and think it's okay. They might think they're gay, too."

Is awesome. I never knew a SINGLE gay person before I was 18, yet I am still gay. So kids are going to be gay whether you like it or not.

Also these are the same people that say that this is not a civil rights issue because people choose to be gay and black people don't choose to be black. If you follow the logic of that argument it doesn't end in a nice place - If you chose to be black then I could tread you the scum I secretly think you are. Such flawed thinking.

Posted by James | November 8, 2008 1:21 PM
10

@7: Didn't he specifically write in his post that that's not the point? Dan's said in a few places now that his problem is not "OMG Blacks made Prop 8 happen!" but rather, "Black Americans voting in favor of Prop 8, that's pretty fucked up and should be addressed." You may not agree that that's any more or less fucked up than white Americans voting for Prop 8, and you may well think he needs to focus his efforts elsewhere, but at least argue with what the man's actually saying.

Posted by Darcy | November 8, 2008 1:28 PM
11

Watching Tony Perkins from Focus On the Family on Andy Cooper's show last night made me want to put my fist through the TV screen.

And I'm a dainty and ladylike gay.

I couldn't help but visualize Mr. Perkins with a dick in his mouth. I think it was a vision caused by his obvious and intense desire for one.

Posted by itsmarkmitchell | November 8, 2008 1:29 PM
12

The problem with Prop 8 wasn't homophobic black voters. It is the Mormon Church that pumped over $15 million into a campaign that funded lies and hate ads (which the No side ignored and to which they refused to respond). A hateful out of state organization proved that it could steal the civil rights of thousands of people. Propositions like these will pass in every state as long as religious organizations can pump tens of millions of dollars into campaigns without any penalties. The government shouldn't interfere with the operation of churches or the lives of their parishioners. And these churches should not interfere with the civil rights of people in another state.

Posted by bzishi | November 8, 2008 1:31 PM
13

@15: Agreed, and we've been bashing the shit out of the Mormons here on Slog.

BTW: On NPR just now they described the support of African American voters as "key" to the passage of Prop 8. So... go get at NPR.

Posted by Dan Savage | November 8, 2008 1:32 PM
14

Look at the results -- the "black" counties are a lot closer for prop 8 than the white rural ones. LA county, the only one with a significant pop of black people that voted FOR 8, was 50-50. All the white ones in southern california went for it 60%, 70%. There weren't enough blacks to throw the race, if the far more substantial whites hadn't also thrown their support behind 8. Quit making race a factor in this. It's not.

70% of a small number is still a small number. The only number I can find for how many black voters actually voted for prop 8 -- all I see are percentages. The only # I've found is there are in california is 1.1 million from 2004. Let's blame 25% of them over and above the general "45% of people who were going to vote yes on 8" -- that's 275,000 people. Prop 8 lost by twice that.

Posted by idaho | November 8, 2008 1:33 PM
15

So, Dan, it sounds like you're saying that since blacks and Latinos have been (and are) oppressed, they should see the parallel discrimination issues, and don't. One of the problems I have with your argument is that you're singling out blacks and Latinos (as opposed to white people, who get a pass). Like elenchos points out, it smells like race-baiting.

Posted by earwig | November 8, 2008 1:33 PM
16

I expect gay people to have some empathy for other minority groups, based on our experience of oppression. How is it race-bating to expect the same in return?

Posted by Dan Savage | November 8, 2008 1:37 PM
17

Ethnic minorities saying that gay people have made a "choice"...

is as offensive as gay people telling ethnic minorities that they wouldn't be minorities if they didn't CHOOSE to live someplace where they were in the minority.

It's stupid and intellectually lazy and morally bankrupt.

Posted by goo | November 8, 2008 1:44 PM
18

All of his numbers and comments totally prove that blacks and latinos hated a little harder. like maybe 25% harder?

waaah

run a better campaign instead of complaining about the results

Posted by Postum | November 8, 2008 1:49 PM
19

I don't understand why we aren't blaming groups that voted heavily for Prop 8. If southern whites voted down a civil rights law that would have helped blacks would we hesitate to call them out for racism?

We're not going to call the African-American and Latino communities out on their homophobia because someone might scream "racism!"?

Sure, much easier to just focus on the Mormon Church (which of course deserves a lot of blame as well).

Posted by jim | November 8, 2008 1:51 PM
20

when you assume, you make mistakes. don't take anything for granted - if you want to reach black and latino voters, comparing it to the civil rights movement, the chicano movement, or immigration/citizenship is not the way to go.

what was the break-down for the 70%/30%? From what I understand the sample was of 274 individuals total. I know I didn't receive a survey, nor did I check "black" on my ballot.

What was the black youth vote vs. the black older vote? Black female vs. black male? Ditto on Latino voters. You need those stats before you start going all crazy-like on ALL minorities. My guess is that the older black voters turned voted yes, while younger voted no. If it's the older voters you need to address, you need to approach it from a different angle than "the civil rights movement," especially since older minorities seem to be offended by the thought of comparing victim status to victim status.

It's also not just a "minority" thing - it's a religious thing. I go to a mega-church that's about 99% black. There's a strong anti-gay marriage tone but there's also an anti-premarital sex tone... sanctity of marriage and all that. It makes me uncomfortable but a lot of the 45,000 people in the church take the preacher's word very seriously. Just look at TD Jakes as another example. Lumping "civil rights and oppressed" people under a single banner isn't going to resonate if it is deeply engaged.

Black power didn't resonate with the world in the same way that the theology of Christianity in the civil rights movement did. Comparatively, since the civil rights movement isn't resonating with minorities, another positive approach is needed.

So to the posters who said engagement and targeted outreach is necessary... I agree. Don't assume that common victimization = end all, be all. It doesn't with black/latino relationships (i.e. inter-racial violence) so why would we assume that it would with gay rights? Also, tossing out hostile columns and blanket attacking minorities isn't going to help your cause, it just alienates people. I have to admit, the hostility directed toward minorities post prop 8 caught me off guard and just turned into another "here we go again, let's blame the colored folks."

Posted by anon | November 8, 2008 1:51 PM
21

Dan,

How would you presume to 'address' this problem? Political retaliation? Gay boycotts on black businesses? Blacks, for the most part still belong to the same churches that their ancestors did when they were slaves. That is to say, their viewpoints will show an astonishing correlation with those of fundamentalist Southerners--even on interracial marriage. And yet it remains one of the primary places for social gathering, political drives and access to social services. Say you bring about the downfall of the black church. Would gays then replace the services that it provides?

The black gays aren't going to be open about it in large numbers any time soon; the gay community is NOT welcoming to blacks. Was Shirley Q. Liquor about Proposition 8? How about Badlands in California? I myself have been called n*gger on Gay.com several times on the main chat room. I ended up canceling my membership.

It is apparent that you don't know the first thing about what factors went into those passing votes. What do you want me to do? Carry a sign so I can get bashed and you can speak of how horrible it was as a hollow talking point? The problem is HRC, NGLTF, et al. They focused on the middle and upper classes, and the poor came out in droves to vote against us.

You notice that, however much I think you are a knee-jerk bigot, I still said *us*? I'll quote you:

"Once again: the people harmed the most by African American homophobia are African American gays and lesbians."

This is in line with your misguided thinking. What it should say:

"The people harmed the most by homophobia IN GENERAL are the poor and voiceless members of the gay community of all races."

Do you understand?

Posted by That annoying 'interest troll' | November 8, 2008 1:51 PM
22

"run a better campaign instead of complaining about the results"



Yeah. Blaming the victim is always a noble strategy. You know, rather than identifying those communities that are statistical outliers and asking them to do something about it.

Posted by goo | November 8, 2008 1:53 PM
23

Let me get this straight, the fact that the GLBT community isn't always friendly to blacks (and is sometimes straight-out racist) is why Prop 8 passed?! You're telling me that if fags were friendly to gay blacks, then religious blacks would have voted for gay marriage?!

Posted by jim | November 8, 2008 1:59 PM
24

So Dan, you are equating your life as an upwardly mobile white gay man with that of black people and other minorities during the civil rights movement? Really. Here in California on Wed, I did not see any gay only drinking fountains, gays didn't sit at the back of the bus, there were no national guardsmen at local colleges to help the gay students get in the door. No lynchings, no bombing of gay churches.

The gay community is a misnomer. We have divided ourselves up into one little group after another based on: weight, facial hair, transgendered identity, muscles, leather, bondage. We have decided that gay men are white good looking men with sarcastic wit and perfect decorating sense that do not like sports, and always have in tow a fag hag or two. Until we need to "come together" to fight tyranny against the "gay community" which suddenly becomes all inclusive. Just in time for election day.

I'm not all that surprised. Many white gay men would not go near a person of color. People said they would wear shirts that said: "gay, the new black", but that would have just replaced their "no fats, no fems, no blacks, no Asians, sorry just my preference"; shirts.

Keep placing blame at the feet of the black community if it makes you feel better. Ignore the fact that Asians and Hispanics contributed MORE votes to yes on 8, but can't boast 70% if it makes you feel better, but this issue will not resolve with racially divisive poison. This country was willing to vote for a black man. That is huge and one more step into the future. I don't see prop 8 as the end, just one more hurdle to overcome towards equality, which has never been an easy fight.

Posted by hal | November 8, 2008 2:00 PM
25

Surprise! there's a lot of gay people who don't have empathy for other minorities and who are fine with that and who don't see any reason to change. The gay community is going to have to address its racism before they can hope to be successful at working with the black community about black homophobia.

Stop blaming blacks (or latinos or other minorities) for prop 8 passing. Its a lie, and NPR will come to that conclusion soon enough.

For goddess' sake why not blame white women for prop 8 passing? far more of them voted for it than are blacks and latinos in all of CA, and they're an oppressed minority (er . . . majority actually but still oppressed) who should have empathy with other oppressed minorities, right?

It's beginning to appear that this issue may be the other shoe dropping. Iwas concerned that mcCain gave in far too quickly and easily. Usually the right fights to the bitter end even when they know they can't win and even if it breaks the very system that american democracy runs on.

But how much sweeter to roll a stinbomb into the middle of the fragile coaltion that got Obama elected and let them tear themselves apart? That's how patriarchal systems are set up to keep minorities from achieving real power.

I'm concerned that if this lie about blacks (and other minorites) keeps getting repeated for another day or so then damage to the coalition that elected Obama will be too deep to heal. If we keep it up the black community is going to believe that we really mean this and that's going take at least 10 years to get the relations back to where they were the day before the election.

How sweet to the theocrats for the coalition to be shattered before Barack even takes office? And to have them doing it to themselves! How Rovian!

Stop this lie now!

Posted by I am your Mother | November 8, 2008 2:02 PM
26

"I did not see any gay only drinking fountains, gays didn't sit at the back of the bus,"

Are you kidding me? Gays were murdered en masse during the holocaust. Millions more have been beaten, humiliated, forced to live lives of shame and secrecy, not to mention the suicides of those who couldn't take it anymore.

How DARE you compare the plight of black and gay Americans as a way to excuse black homophobia.

Posted by goo | November 8, 2008 2:05 PM
27

What @6 said.

Also, does anyone have a CLASS breakdown of how people voted in this election?

Posted by Trevor | November 8, 2008 2:06 PM
28

Dan, I back you up a 100%.

This is not about blaming blacks. We could also blame the liberals in SF, who had the lowest turnout in the state (50%). We could also blame the republicans, who voted for it by even larger margins than the black (and almost entirely democratic) community.

But we have to hold homophobia accountable in all communities.

Pretending that the black community doesn't have a particular problem with this kind of bigotry won't get us anywhere.

Posted by raphael | November 8, 2008 2:07 PM
29

Somebody on one of the DC gay blogs just pointed out how "Dan Savage had joined the Klan", which I thought was some kind of joke, like an Onion story. I had to come to the Stranger and see for myself. Wow, it's pretty much true.

Whether you realized it or not, Dan, you had a lot of minority fans. Might I stress "had". What you did is comparable to Bush and his campaign on Islamic terrorists (stressing Islamic). You threw an entire group under the bus. Let's call it "e-lynching", because that is exactly what you did.

I couldn't care less what NPR or your numbers show you, that just means you imbeciles need more stats classes. I'm an analyst, and I looked at the rough numbers closely. Did AAs impact the vote? Of course. Did they sway it severely one way or the other? Not necessarily. The overall population was too tiny to do that, compared to the other racial and demographic ratios.

The inherent flaw in your (non-scientific and only Rove-like factual) argument is the fact that you cite homophobia in the African American community as the major problem, something that must be dealt with "head on". Please - homophobia is rampant in every community; might I point out the Whites that chose to NOT vote either way on the Prop; talk about THAT number, why don't you?

Is homophobia a problem in the Black community? Yes, and we've been dealing with it. Thank you for suddenly becoming enlightened on that fact (which proves what few Black people you must know really well)and using tactics like Heinrich Himmler to try and "wake people up".

Lots of people of color used to like you. It's ironic that it took the election of a Black president for you to show your true racist colors.

Enjoy the white hood. Looks good on you.

Posted by hyperkind | November 8, 2008 2:08 PM
30

Eliminating separate drinking fountains for blacks did not require anybody to redefine what the word "drinking" meant. The injustice of that instance of separate-but-equal is more obvious to the average observer than this injustice. A marriage that allows for same-sex couples does involve a significant change from the definition of that word to which most people are accustomed, in part because the term for the civil aspect of it is the same word used for the religious ceremony, and this has a long established history of being a heterosexual union.

Witness how much more support among the general public there is for non-discrimination measures involving housing and employment. Many people who intuitively grasp the concept that denying people equal employment or housing opportunities on the basis of sexual orientation is wrong apparently still have not made the leap to supporting full marriage equality. It would seem the case for marriage equality requires some more nuanced arguments. It may be that analogies to racial discrimination have reached the limits of their usefulness here.

Posted by flamingbanjo | November 8, 2008 2:08 PM
31

Surprise! there's a lot of gay people who don't have empathy for other minorities and who are fine with that and who don't see any reason to change. The gay community is going to have to address its racism before they can hope to be successful at working with the black community about black homophobia.

Stop blaming blacks (or latinos or other minorities) for prop 8 passing. Its a lie, and NPR will come to that conclusion soon enough.

For goddess' sake why not blame white women for prop 8 passing? far more of them voted for it than are blacks and latinos in all of CA, and they're an oppressed minority (er . . . majority actually but still oppressed) who should have empathy with other oppressed minorities, right?

It's beginning to appear that this issue may be the other shoe dropping. Iwas concerned that mcCain gave in far too quickly and easily. Usually the right fights to the bitter end even when they know they can't win and even if it breaks the very system that american democracy runs on.

But how much sweeter to roll a stinbomb into the middle of the fragile coaltion that got Obama elected and let them tear themselves apart? That's how patriarchal systems are set up to keep minorities from achieving real power.

I'm concerned that if this lie about blacks (and other minorites) keeps getting repeated for another day or so then damage to the coalition that elected Obama will be too deep to heal. If we keep it up the black community is going to believe that we really mean this and that's going take at least 10 years to get the relations back to where they were the day before the election.

How sweet to the theocrats for the coalition to be shattered before Barack even takes office? And to have them doing it to themselves! How Rovian!

Stop this lie now!

Posted by I am your Mother | November 8, 2008 2:08 PM
32

"damage to the coalition that elected Obama will be too deep to heal"

Not if Obama lives up to his reputation as a transformational figure and grows a pair on the issue of gay rights. His own church supports gay marrige, so why can't he?

Especially now that he's got a mandate?

Posted by goo | November 8, 2008 2:09 PM
33

Some of you really need to work on your math skills. I keep hearing 'This group couldn't have made a difference because they're too small.' *Any group* can make the difference if other segments are split.

Imagine whites and Asians were evenly divided 50/50 on Prop 8, in that case a 70/30 split in the AA community could have easily pushed it over.

Did that happen? Who knows, the exit polls suggest something like that happened, but then the sample sizes were small.

Posted by thefacts | November 8, 2008 2:11 PM
34

It appears that communities of color voted against us at higher levels than others, though there's some disagreement with the value of exit polls. I think this says more about the GLBT movement currently than those communities, though Our "leaders" in the anti-8 thing by most accounts did a shit-poor job of it, and we need to recognize that and change it.

It seems that the "gay movement" has become a sort of top-down movement where most of us give money to an organization to make ourselves feel like we're doing something (note I include myself here), and the organizations throw lavish fundraisers where they reward heterosexual celebrities for liking the gays. And then when there's a ballot initiative to strip us of our rights, we fall into line and listen to the "leadership" which has no real ground game or plan for ANYTHING, and that leaves us flatfooted. Then we lose and we get angry. Look, this happened in 2004 when I lived in MI. There's something deeply flawed with this model.

I know there are organizations out there doing good work here in Maryland b/c I just checked that shit out b/c this Prop 8 thing had me worried.

The anger I see isn't cool, but it's understandable.

Posted by Balt-O-Matt | November 8, 2008 2:13 PM
35

@22

The point is that the No on I-8 campaign completely ignored the concerns and misconceptions of a significant population (interestingly, a population that is frequently ignored by upper middle class whites of all political persuasions). The rift between the gay community and minority communities is significant and neither side is doing much of anything to bridge the gap. It's the charge of the gay community to be the first to reach out.

Posted by mkone | November 8, 2008 2:13 PM
36

Dan,

You are still missing the point. Didin't you read the article that you posted? In the article it is clear that the reason black voters went for 8 is that they are religious, not because they are black. They don't go into the booth thinking I am black and have been oppressed so I should support gays. They go into the booth thinking that my pastor says that we need to protect marriage and protect the rights of churches. In case you missed it 8 supporters focused on how gay marriage harms churches (and I know the argument is false but the Mormon Church didn't care about that when it swayed church going folk).

The gay movement will not win anyone over like this...you can't just say well it's the same as the civil rights movement and expect people to fall in line. Much as MLK jr. didn't just say well our constitution says all men are equal and expect people to fall in line. He went to white churches and white church goers to make his case that not only was separate but equal unconstitutional, it was un-Christian as well. That is the only way to change the Christian vote...you can't ignore the religious component and rest solely on analogy.

Posted by clarity | November 8, 2008 2:14 PM
37

How about Arizona and Florida ? Are there exit polls about the make up of the voters who support ban on gay marriage in those two states?

Posted by pg13 | November 8, 2008 2:14 PM
38

Ignoring California for a second, have we thought about what we can do for Washington State? It is extraordinarily difficult to pass a State Constitutional Amendment, so that will probably never be an issue. But after watching the California results, it might be wise to put some bans on out of state religious organizations from participating in Washington campaigns before a real same sex marriage initiative is proposed.

Posted by bzishi | November 8, 2008 2:15 PM
39

Dan, for someone who has tried to cut through bullshit and assumptions and offer clear-headed constructive advice to help people love and lust each other more productively and progressively, you certainly have gone 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

I hope as you step away from your rash, angry argument and force yourself to embrace factuality and clarity, you will come to a more moderate and substantive conclusion than scapegoating Black people as exceptionally homophobic, and worthy of a tit-for-tat political rejection / backlash from progressive political gays.

Surely your studies of the complicated sexual objectification of Black folk (and their reactive church-based sexual conservatism, bordering on self-loathing) throughout history gave you better insight than that.

Surely your knowledge of the enduring problem of closeted homosexuals in an often reactionary black church, and church-going black women threatened by the "Down Low" problem--gave you better insight than that.

Ask yourself: are you equally disappointed with all the demographics that voted for Prop 8, or are you singling Blacks out due to the disproportionate homophobia? (They're 20% more homophobic than Latinos so let's call them to the carpet! Sure, they didnt have nearly the numbers that older white voters or white women had in voting this Prop, but there were more of them proportionately, so let's call them out!)

I think Coates and Sullivan of the Atlantic have some fair and thought-out counters to your blistering screed that you'd do well to engage, privately if not publically. As do many minority LBGTs who do not see this issue as monochromatically as you appear to, your after-the-fact qualifications about "This isn’t about blame; it’s about diagnosing the problem and beginning to address it" aside.

I know you like to drop the hammer when you smell bullshit, but sometimes you can be just a tad heavyhanded and sanctimonious, and you've been called on this before for all your customary excellence. You are usually as fair with your self-analysis as with your analysis of others, and I hope you will not disappoint on this front.

Because 10 years of reading my favorite sex columnist bar none should not end on such a sour note. A lot of people look to your work for guidance Dan, dont let us down.

Posted by RelaxDanRelax | November 8, 2008 2:16 PM
40

Dan, for someone who has tried to cut through bullshit and assumptions and offer clear-headed constructive advice to help people love and lust each other more productively and progressively, you certainly have gone 180 degrees in the opposite direction.

I hope as you step away from your rash, angry argument and force yourself to embrace factuality and clarity, you will come to a more moderate and substantive conclusion than scapegoating Black people as exceptionally homophobic, and worthy of a tit-for-tat political rejection / backlash from progressive political gays.

Surely your studies of the complicated sexual objectification of Black folk (and their reactive church-based sexual conservatism, bordering on self-loathing) throughout history gave you better insight than that.

Surely your knowledge of the enduring problem of closeted homosexuals in an often reactionary black church, and church-going black women threatened by the "Down Low" problem--gave you better insight than that.

Ask yourself: are you equally disappointed with all the demographics that voted for Prop 8, or are you singling Blacks out due to the disproportionate homophobia? (They're 20% more homophobic than Latinos so let's call them to the carpet! Sure, they didnt have nearly the numbers that older white voters or white women had in voting this Prop, but there were more of them proportionately, so let's call them out!)

I think Coates and Sullivan of the Atlantic have some fair and thought-out counters to your blistering screed that you'd do well to engage, privately if not publically. As do many minority LBGTs who do not see this issue as monochromatically as you appear to, your after-the-fact qualifications about "This isn’t about blame; it’s about diagnosing the problem and beginning to address it" aside.

I know you like to drop the hammer when you smell bullshit, but sometimes you can be just a tad heavyhanded and sanctimonious, and you've been called on this before for all your customary excellence. You are usually as fair with your self-analysis as with your analysis of others, and I hope you will not disappoint on this front.

Because 10 years of reading my favorite sex columnist bar none should not end on such a sour note. A lot of people look to your work for guidance Dan, dont let us down.

Posted by RelaxDanRelax | November 8, 2008 2:17 PM
41

I love this notion that a segment of society must be pure before it should expect its civil rights. Would that mean, for example, if there's a lot of sexism in the AA community then they shouldn't expect their civil rights before they've fixed that little problem?

Honestly the idea that the AA community was punishing the gay community for their racism is insane. They were punishing the gay community because they believe gays are evil, perverted sinners that must not be allowed their rights.

Posted by bepure | November 8, 2008 2:17 PM
42

27% of gays and lesbians voted for McCain, the largest percentage to vote for a Republican president in history. Gays and lesbians wouldn't have elected McCain on their own, but isn't it a little telling that so many gays and lesbians want to take other people's rights away that they'd be willing to take away their own rights? Shouldn't that be addressed? After all, white gays, not black churchgoers, are a large part of the Slog's audience.

I would nag NPR for their lazy and inaccurate journalism but they don't have a comment button on their radio show.

African Americans/Hispanics were to the Prop 8 vote as Ralph Nader was to the 2000 election.

African Americans were to the Prop 8 vote as Nader was to the 2008 election (ie, irrelevant). Hispanics voted about equally to whites and have almost the same population, so why are you picking on them?

I just want to bash this stupid exit poll some more because it's so worthless and it's the only reason people are thinking about African-Americans being especially homophobic. A few more tidbits from this exit poll (if you do a little math)...

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#CAI01p1
(I can only get CNN's exit poll results to work in Safari on Mac, weirdly enough.)

* 224 African-Americans were polled in California, not chosen randomly because 1) many voters reject answering the long exit polls and 2) a non-random selection of voting places was chosen -- probably a couple fundamentalist black churches were chosen to exit poll and 3) 224 people is not nearly enough to get an accurate measure.

* According to the dumb exit poll, 75% of black women voted for Prop 8 but only 62% of black men. Every existing measure ever (and common sense) show that black men, and men in general, are more homophobic and anti-gay rights than black women.

* The same exit poll in Arkansas says that 58% of whites voted to ban gays from adopting, but only 54% of blacks. Are only California blacks homophobic and hypocritical?

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#ARI01p1

Posted by jrrrl | November 8, 2008 2:18 PM
43

Dan, get with the PC Program: Blacks lost with the passage of Prop 8 as a result of gay racism. Something like 70% of gays voted for it?

The flat out denial, coming from black folks, that gays are pursuing civil rights is the bothersome narrative. They pretend to 'own' civil rights.

TNCoates pointed out: Blacks weren't so much against slavery as against being slaves. He's got some good stuff over there at The Atlantic about how blacks have not been ennobled by their civil rights struggle. I guess he, too, is a racist now in the eyes of the PC Cops.

Posted by sean | November 8, 2008 2:21 PM
44

23: In a word, yes. Coming out to parents, for example, requires a strong social base to fall back on should things get nasty. Those guys who called me n-gger weren't being hit on by me; they were drunks who couldn't manage to get laid that night and so were trash-talking how ugly the Hispanics were who were merely chatting in the room. I objected to this and got racial slurs for my efforts. Out of a room full of chatting people no one intervened. Open racism is one thing; the cold shoulder is another; indifference to prejudice that is happening RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU is the issue with which I am here concerned.

If gay blacks and Latinos had friends in the community in larger numbers--I'm not saying men who are willing to sleep with them--then they would come out to their parents more often. Those parents would gradually turn around in their opinions, changing churches, etc. But it ain't going to happen. The gay community is based on the marketing concerns of a very small segment of very rich men. The rest make up for the anguish they feel by competing over who dresses the nicest, has the best stuff, sleep with the most and most beautiful men and because of this the idea of community is dead.

Consider the fact that I volunteer to help with people who have AIDS. The director mentioned that volunteering has declined steadily, and is practically non-existent among the young. Marriage has gotten the attention it has due to its potential to sell marriage-associated products, as shown in the back of your standard gay magazine. Do you realize that nearly every gay independent has been bought up by PlanetOut, the producers of Out Magazine and Gay.com, of whom Dan has been a PAID columnist? It is therefore no surprise that the columns throughout the gay press are remarkably similar in their blame of blacks, and now Hispanics, for the passing of Proposition 8. They are the community's poorest members, and therefore not as lucrative for their marketing schemes.

Posted by That annoying 'interest troll' | November 8, 2008 2:22 PM
45

All of you people that keep saying the gay community needs to do more to interface with the black community, have you read any of the blog posts by gay blacks that have tried to have a dialog with the black community?

This is something religious people are brought up with, it's deep-seated, it's (in their mind) a mandate from GOD and it's not something where you're going to change their mind on by sitting down and chatting.

Seriously, try and convince an Operation Rescue person that abortion should be legal, same mindset.

Posted by goodluck | November 8, 2008 2:23 PM
46

Also instead of innuendo could we please have some more INFORMATION?

Like: links to the polls that scientifically show higher levels of anti-gay bias in CA's black community

And: information about the diversity of the anti-Prop 8 staff and the methods it used to reach out to communities of color in the lead up to the election.

Posted by Trevor | November 8, 2008 2:26 PM
47

i have to agree with goo @26, there is a fundamental difference between race and homosexuality, namely that one is readily identifiable and the other isn't. i don't doubt for one second that if being gay were easily and outwardly visible, gays would be targeted ten times more virulently. my thinking on this is that whenever openly gay individuals or communities show themselves, they are targeted more. bashings, firings, insults, shame. it's a long history homophobia has.

also, simply because one group may have had it worse than another doesn't negate the experience of the 'better off' group.

lastly, homosexuality is not a choice. i say this as a straight man who was raised inside of a community theatre surrounded by gay men. even through this gayest of environments i came out lusting after women. i never chose to be heterosexual, i always liked girls. if there was no choice for me then it makes no sense to assume a choice for others.

Posted by douglas | November 8, 2008 2:27 PM
48

#20 said "if you want to reach black and latino voters, comparing it to the civil rights movement, the chicano movement, or immigration/citizenship is not the way to go."

IT IS like the civil rights movement. Why should gays pretend it's not to avoid offending bigots of color? BTW, I am not gay, but I have noticed that it seems everyone has to jump through hoops and walk on egg shells not to offend African Americans. If you look at the history of their civil rights and relgious leaders (Malcolm X, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Farrakhan, Jerimiah Wrirght, etc) you will see it's not a two way street.

Posted by jane doe | November 8, 2008 2:27 PM
49

One CNN exit poll of 200-some people? Is that it? Is that what we're arguing about?

Posted by Trevor | November 8, 2008 2:30 PM
50

@33 You should know that we have done the math. Even if the majority of blacks had voted against 8 it still would have passed.

And just to echo some of the other posters yes Dan, what you are doing here is dangerous. You are losing some of your readers (which you may not care about) but more importantly you are alienating black people who support gays. I say this as a straight mixed race woman who still has her no on 8 signs up but is begining to fear further supporting the gay community. I really wanted to join the protests in West Hollywood but maybe I should just stay away because it appears that many gays can't see past my skin color.

It's a shame that so many people including you are missing the fact that it's religion not skin colr that is driving the homophobia- need I draw you a Venn diagram? The overlap between black and Christian is huge. And as long as gay marriage is a religious issue then civil rights analogies won't work....also Holocaust references do not help your analogy - the civil rights movement in America had zero to do with what was going on in Hitler's Germany.

Posted by clarity | November 8, 2008 2:31 PM
51

@26: Here is what you posted:

"I did not see any gay only drinking fountains, gays didn't sit at the back of the bus,"

And here's what I posted:

"Here in California on Wed, I did not see any gay only drinking fountains, gays didn't sit at the back of the bus, there were no national guardsmen at local colleges to help the gay students get in the door. No lynchings, no bombing of gay churches."

I was not talking about all of history. I was talking about Wednesday, 11/5/2008. Do not purposely misquote me so you can go on a diatribe of HOW DARE YOU's...

"How DARE you compare the plight of black and gay Americans as a way to excuse black homophobia"

Is that what I did? I'm not excusing anything, simply offering my explanation as to why "I'm a minority, you're a minority" didn't work.

We compartmentalize our experiences with discrimination. White gay men are discriminated against for being gay. Gay minorities are discriminated against for being gay, being a minority, or a combination. Some of us may have even had more experiences with racism than homophobia, or felt the sting of racism more, I don't know. Whatever the case, I feel there is an attempt to single out a specific group, and trying to "the facts" as justification. Call out the homophobes, by all means. But when you focus on the smallest contributor to the homophobia, you are not accomplishing anything.

Posted by hal | November 8, 2008 2:32 PM
52

Sean--

The American Gay Rights Movement practically BEGAN in the black community. The Harlem Renaissance was almost entirely Gay and Lesbian writers. The first Drag Balls were held in Harlem. Bayard Ruskin was famous for attempting to extend the Civil Rights movement to lesbians and gays. James Baldwin wrote one of the first American Gay novels. What happened was that the gays ignored their efforts--because of prejudice and a cultural disconnect--and the movement was crushed by the black church and religious conservatives in general. This is the first widespread attention I have seen paid to GLBT minorities in my lifetime, and it is wholly negative. Please blame blacks. Condemn more minorities within the gay 'community' to AIDS and suicide--which minorities suffer highly disproportionately from. It is of a piece with your complaints about "PC".

Posted by That annoying 'interest troll' | November 8, 2008 2:32 PM
53

@26: Here is what you posted:

"I did not see any gay only drinking fountains, gays didn't sit at the back of the bus,"

And here's what I posted:

"Here in California on Wed, I did not see any gay only drinking fountains, gays didn't sit at the back of the bus, there were no national guardsmen at local colleges to help the gay students get in the door. No lynchings, no bombing of gay churches."

I was not talking about all of history. I was talking about Wednesday, 11/5/2008. Do not purposely misquote me so you can go on a diatribe of HOW DARE YOU's...

"How DARE you compare the plight of black and gay Americans as a way to excuse black homophobia"

Is that what I did? I'm not excusing anything, simply offering my explanation as to why "I'm a minority, you're a minority" didn't work.

We compartmentalize our experiences with discrimination. White gay men are discriminated against for being gay. Gay minorities are discriminated against for being gay, being a minority, or a combination. Some of us may have even had more experiences with racism than homophobia, or felt the sting of racism more, I don't know. Whatever the case, I feel there is an attempt to single out a specific group, and trying to "the facts" as justification. Call out the homophobes, by all means. But when you focus on the smallest contributor to the homophobia, you are not accomplishing anything.

Posted by hal | November 8, 2008 2:33 PM
54

"This isn’t about blame; it’s about diagnosing the problem and beginning to address it."

Exactly.

Posted by violet_dagrinder | November 8, 2008 2:34 PM
55

@48: It's because white people are almost universally incapable of straight-talk about their feelings on any given matter. It's always generalities or unsubstantiated "facts" bandied about like some kind of mask for their not-so-latent victim complex.

Posted by AJ | November 8, 2008 2:35 PM
56

"blacks have not been ennobled by their civil rights struggle"

NO FUCKING SHIT. We're just people. We're not nobility.

"I have noticed that it seems everyone has to jump through hoops and walk on egg shells not to offend African Americans"

Oh God why don't you just put down the Dinesh D'Souza for a second.
Join the fucking crowd Jane Doe, I believe Geraldine Ferraro had the same point about how it's so hard to be white because of the all-powerful black opinion. Speak your fucking mind and if you're afraid then don't make it anyone else's problem.

Wright? Fuck you. You just get to pick and choose random black people that you hate and TAR us with their opinions? What the fuck is that? Do you want a signed apology from the blacks? We're passing the card around at our hate whitey meetings as I speak.

Posted by daniel | November 8, 2008 2:39 PM
57

"If you look at the history of their civil rights and relgious leaders (Malcolm X, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Farrakhan, Jerimiah Wrirght, etc) you will see it's not a two way street."

Yes Jane, these are the civil rights leaders of the black community. How convenient. There are some names missing from your scary black mens post, but I'm sure you knew that.

Posted by hal | November 8, 2008 2:43 PM
58

@ 50 Clarity

Amen!

And about that exit poll: if people against sound transit has used a poll as poorly done as this one was to argue that light rail is nothing but boondoogle that should be voted down, you know Erica Barnett would have been all over it like flies on shit to tear it apart and show how meaningless it was.

Why the double standard Dan? Why not critique the shoddy failings of that exit poll instead of taking it as gospel truth?

I thought so!

Posted by I am your Mother and I'd like to spank Dan Savage right now and not in a good way! | November 8, 2008 2:44 PM
59

#31 You say: The gay community is going to have to address its racism before they can hope to be successful at working with the black community about black homophobia.

What emotional blackmail! We've heard this before. First it was the jews, then the Asians, next hispanics, then those upity white women, now gays. EVERYONE takes 'vantage of black people. Everyone is SOOOO racist. Of course facts speak a different story of who is victimizing who. But facts aren't needed, right???
I can give you a million examples of black men singing about violence towards gays and women show me all those white gay men singing about violence towards blacks or straight people.
Please Dan, give us hate crime stats- What % of the population is AA and what % of hate crimes against gays are AA.
And to all you who say that gay racism is more of a problem than black homophobia. Give me a list of all the violent hate crimes committed by gay men and women again AA's and latinos.

Posted by jane doe | November 8, 2008 2:46 PM
60

Hal -

Like it or not a disproportionally high percentage of the older black civil rights leaders have made public anti-Semitic remarks. Farrakhan, for all his bile, is still a respected figure in the black community.

Posted by sam | November 8, 2008 2:47 PM
61

#53 "But when you focus on the smallest contributor to the homophobia, you are not accomplishing anything."


Actually I'm focused on those groups that have the statistically highest support of the ban. I don't care if that group was black people, Asian people, Latinos, Mormons, or burnt-out hippies from Arcata. If I see homophobia somewhere, anywhere, I'm calling it out.

You know who would be most harmed by our failure to do so? Gay African Americans.

Posted by goo | November 8, 2008 2:48 PM
62

Jane--

The foundation of the apartheid state of South Africa by gay man Cecil Rhodes. It laid the foundation for AIDS to spread worldwide, as a local disease wouldn't have traveled so far without the population density needed to work his diamond mines. AIDS itself is a hate crime, and it disproportionately affects blacks and Latinos. Is a toll of tens of millions enough for you?

Posted by That annoying 'interest troll' | November 8, 2008 2:52 PM
63

I remember when gay people were dragged from bars and thrown in jail for dancing together. We put an end to that. Let's put an end to religious organisations donating tax free money to politcal campaigns or demand this country stop the charade of seperation of church and state. You know, when Obama came out against gay marriage it was doomed. He has said he would sign anti discrimination legilation. Let's hold him to that since he played a big part in prop. 8 passing.

Posted by Vince | November 8, 2008 2:54 PM
64

"There are some names missing from your scary black mens post"

It wasn't a list of scary black men. It was a list of black men who talk (and sometimes act) like the KKK then hide behind the race card. It was a partial list of black men who have put on the white sheet and found it feels gooood. You call them civil rights leaders simply because they believe in affirmative action and welfare and are willing to look the other way at the hate crimes and hate speech they have encouraged.

Your babish reply is typical of blacks who will support anyone no matter how noxious if they tell you lies you want to hear. I suppose you are going to complain about the KKK- you know, those scary white civil rights leaders that so many blacks demonize.

Posted by jane doe | November 8, 2008 2:54 PM
65

C'mon, folks-- you wanna drop the N-bomb. You know you want your GAHOWA.

Now we need Andrew Sullivan to write the gay version of the Turner Diaries.

Posted by AJ | November 8, 2008 2:56 PM
66

Death of a Salesman?

Posted by Leedlemane | November 8, 2008 2:56 PM
67
One CNN exit poll of 200-some people? Is that it? Is that what we're arguing about?

Yes. 2240 people were exit polled in all of California, but only 10% were black (about 224). The randomness and sample size are more accurate when you look at everyone, but not when looking specifically at the opinions of 224 people polled mostly at a handful of polling places.

Since the exit poll is clearly wrong and changing the African-American vote wouldn't have made Prop 8 fail, Dan wants to say now this is about the irony of black people voting against civil rights. I guess that's ironic, but the problem is fundamentalist churches and forcing "traditional" values, not anything at all special about the black population.

Please Dan, give us hate crime stats- What % of the population is AA and what % of hate crimes against gays are AA.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/table_05.htm

268 of the 1460 anti-gay hate crimes in 2007 were committed by black people. That's 18%. That's a little higher than the 14% of black people nationwide, but considering that 28% of people arrested for all federal crimes in general are black, that's much less than would be expected. Especially considering black and gay people often reside around the same urban areas.

Posted by jrrrl | November 8, 2008 2:57 PM
68

No AJ, YOU want us to so you would have a legit reason to scream "racism". YOU want racism cause then it would delegitimize our criticism.
I love it when a black person tells me what I really think and what I really want to do or say. It must be a "cultural difference"- this ESP ability to always know what any given person is REALLY thinking at any given time. Even people you have never met. Wow, maybe you can market that.

Posted by jane doe | November 8, 2008 3:00 PM
69

"Hal -

Like it or not a disproportionally high percentage of the older black civil rights leaders have made public anti-Semitic remarks. Farrakhan, for all his bile, is still a respected figure in the black community"

Disproportionably compared to? Any actual numbers to back this up? Or is older civil rights leaders again: Jackson, Sharpton, and Farrakhan. They are the people on the news you always see, that's for sure. Civil rights leaders worked with the jewish community and there is a whole slew of writings about why this coalition came apart. These men are not the only civil rights leaders in the words, and regardless, I think Obama is pointing to a new way.

Posted by hal | November 8, 2008 3:00 PM
70
You're telling me that if fags were friendly to gay blacks, then religious blacks would have voted for gay marriage?!

Yes, you are responsible. If black gays felt more comfortable in your community, more of them would come out of the closet. As it stands, they don't because they'd rather live in secrecy and have a community that doesn't accept their sexuality rather than come out, be rejected by that community, and then be rejected by the gay community for their skin color. If more black gays came out of the closet, that would be an important step in forcing the black community to reconsider their bigotry towards gays. Get it yet?

Posted by keshmeshi | November 8, 2008 3:00 PM
71

Jane, wow, the "race card", affirmative action, welfare and "black men singing"? That's awesome... don't hold back.

Whatever Jane. I'm a black man and I support gay rights and that's never gonna change. Am I a credit to my race? Fuck you.

Posted by daniel | November 8, 2008 3:01 PM
72

#65 - grow up already. You're not helping anyone, except the Mormons and the GOP. Most people here want to end homophobia. In white communities. In black communities. Everywhere.

Quit being such a douche.

Posted by goo | November 8, 2008 3:02 PM
73
C'mon, folks-- you wanna drop the N-bomb. You know you want your GAHOWA.

Is it a coincidence like 3-4 Slog posts in the past couple days have dropped the n-bomb? :[

Posted by jrrrl | November 8, 2008 3:04 PM
74

Hate crimes by Gay americans? How about the 25% or so who voted for McCain...my uterus says that's a hate crime...trying to take away my right to choose becuase you won't vote for a man of mixed race??? And yes I know that some of those votes were made by actual gay republicans...but last time I checked 1 in 4 gays was not republican.

Posted by clarity | November 8, 2008 3:06 PM
75

You're claiming gay black people don't come out of the closet because of racism among gays, but isn't another explanation, a more likely one, that the don't come out of the closet because of the extreme homophobia in the black community?

Posted by jim | November 8, 2008 3:08 PM
76

Civil rights leaders worked with the jewish community and there is a whole slew of writings about why this coalition came apart.

A slew of writing? It's very simple. Look at the hate crimes and hate speech blacks have directed at Jews, it has not been a two way street. AA civil rights leaders will harrass all minority groups the don't fail enough. Cries of exploitation will echo. If 1000 crimes happen which blacks are the perpetrators we are supposed to look the other way. When there is one crime committed towards a black person by a jew, asian, hispanic civil rights leaders will loudly proclaim their community is being attacked, being vicitized. No one needs to read a book about this. Jews, asians, hispanics, white women, and now gays have had the Afirkkan American civil rights community burning a cross on their lawn for a long time. I mean look at how Don Imus had his career destroyed... and compare that to how rappers talking about gays ALL THE TIME. Every group has to put up with KKK-like behavior from AA's without complaint or even more accusations and threats will be forthcoming.

Posted by jane doe | November 8, 2008 3:09 PM
77

@ 56, 71 - you are awesome.

@ dan - white people were more likely to support McCain than either blacks or Latinos. Where's the outrage about that?

Assuming that the exit polling is accurate and black people are disproportionately likely to have supported Prop 8, then yes, that sucks.

Posted by UnoriginalAndrew | November 8, 2008 3:11 PM
78

#67 - Nice dishonest math. There were 864 anti-male homosexual crimes in the sample, of which the offender's race was not know 56 times and in 206 cases the offender was unknown, so the base is 602. In 153 cases the offender was black, so that's 25.4%, not 14%.

Posted by dishonestmath | November 8, 2008 3:13 PM
79

#67 - Nice dishonest math. There were 864 anti-male homosexual crimes in the sample, of which the offender's race was not know 56 times and in 206 cases the offender was unknown, so the base is 602. In 153 cases the offender was black, so that's 25.4%, not 14%.

Posted by dishonestmath | November 8, 2008 3:13 PM
80

@ 77 - then yes, that sucks. Insisting that "Yes on Prop 8" is just like Jim Crow is probably not an effective way to change it.

Posted by UnoriginalAndrew | November 8, 2008 3:14 PM
81

"Your babish reply is typical of blacks who will support anyone no matter how noxious if they tell you lies you want to hear. I suppose you are going to complain about the KKK- you know, those scary white civil rights leaders that so many blacks demonize."

You are clearly a racist, and a coward. I love it when slog posters start posting anonymously when their true feeling come out. I mean really, a defense of the KKK? Typical blacks, welfare, affirmative action? All you need now is a black man prowling the streets for a blond white woman. But come one, who are you really Jane? Who have you been posting as up to this point?

Posted by hal | November 8, 2008 3:15 PM
82

According to CNN exit polls (which is much more accurate when you look at 17,836 people nationwide and not 224 black people in California), 95% of black people voted for Obama but 55% of white people voted for McCain.

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/polls/#USP00p1

Posted by jrrrl | November 8, 2008 3:15 PM
83

Black Gay men are just as racist to White Gay men as Latino Gay men are to Asian Gay men as FTM are to MTF and Butch Dykes are to Fems as S is to M. Everyone is a little bit racist. Now that we've cleared that up can we all stop tearing each other apart.

Posted by Sargon Bighorn | November 8, 2008 3:18 PM
84

Hal, uh, the last I know posting as "Hal" is about the same thing as posting anonymously.
Like eveything else about you it's just the pot calling the kettle black.
I like your paranoia. Yes I'm part of a WIDE conspiracy.
I am a gay male zionist entity working for homeland security, the Mosaad, freemasons- you name it!

Posted by jane doe | November 8, 2008 3:21 PM
85

@72: Helping them? No, starting a circular firing squad is helping them. Blaming one group and saying they're required to give deference is helping them. Being divided is helping them.

The second we stop building new wings to the Victim Complex is the second we can get moving on a real solution.

Posted by AJ | November 8, 2008 3:23 PM
86

It is so disappointing for thread this ugly to be surfacing only hours after our victory of electing Barack Obama. I know its all there anyway and will surface sometime but gee whiz, talk about how we can't rest til we snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. It would've been nice if we could have spent a few more days or even the next week celebrating before we go back to cutting each other up. Karl Rove must be laughing in his grave (if he had one).

Sigh . . .

Posted by I am your Mother | November 8, 2008 3:28 PM
87
Nice dishonest math.

Sorry for missing the "race not known" column but this isn't a thesis and I provided the link. 25% is still less than would be expected. I don't want to argue about why blacks are arrested more than other races and jails are stuffed with black people (hint: judges and juries and police are usually white people), but according to your system, 27% of anti-Hispanic hate crimes were by black people. Are blacks even more anti-Mexican? Both numbers are still less than the 28%-31% black number for non-hate crimes.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/arrests/index.html if you want to dig some more

Posted by jrrrl | November 8, 2008 3:29 PM
88

Dan, please stop this. People all over these posts are just begging you not to make yourself a forum and standard bearer for this race-baiting and scapegoating.

This is your third blog with such a frustrating lack of understanding of larger reality of prop 8, half-hearted "tolerance" appeals, and unnerving subsurface racism and it's just getting harder to continue as a fan. Stop, think, breathe, don't dig yourself into this sort of short-sited, narrow-minded, blinded stuff.

It's not that there's nothing here to talk about (prop 8 is a huge loss! We need to do better!), but you're not, I'm afraid, doing it well. Quit it, think about it, and try again for something better in a week when you're not so hurt, and so unthinking.

I think I'm not the only one who's going to have a hard time listening/reading anymore.

Posted by Stell | November 8, 2008 3:37 PM
89

I don't see how Dan is "playing the race card." It can't be denied that large swaths of black/latino voters in California voted for Prop 8, but that doesn't mean that they voted for Prop 8 because they were black/latino; the more important factor is class and education, and it can't be doubted that in parts of the country where you have fewer blacks/latinos, you would have just as many white idiots voting against the gays for the same reasons. (Let's envision a similar proposition in say, West Virginia -- obvs it would have passed.) All of that said, it also can't be denied that there has been a rather remarkable failure on the part of a few very visible "leaders" of the "black community" to equate the fight for racial equality to that being fought by the gays. This obvs doesn't mean that anyone besides the person in question is a bigot. On-the-record homo-hater Jesse Jackson is a perfect example, and speaking of basking in a false glow, Judith Warner's adulation of Jackson in The Times is almost as nauseating as Bob Herbert. The true solution here is to give people jobs and schools, so their kids can grow up to be drag queens, (out) cocksuckers and whatever else represents the best of the liberal U.S.A.

Posted by The Gay Recluse | November 8, 2008 3:38 PM
90

"Hal, uh, the last I know posting as "Hal" is about the same thing as posting anonymously.
Like eveything else about you it's just the pot calling the kettle black.
I like your paranoia. Yes I'm part of a WIDE conspiracy.
I am a gay male zionist entity working for homeland security, the Mosaad, freemasons- you name it!"

Uh huh. All my posts are just chock full of antisemitism, and homophobia. But, I do like the fact the you admit you are just posting under a different name so you can shill for the John Birch Society today. While the writings of David Duke have clearly inspired you, in the end, I'm confident that your racism and hatred will serve no one, and only eat away at what little soul you have left. Comb over crime statistics so you can blame a specific group for all the evil in the world if that makes you feel better.

In the end, I truly believe that most of us can come together and make racism, homophobia, sexism, and all other forms of hatred a thing of the past. Many of us here obviously have different ideas about how to do that, and what needs to happen, but that is just one more obstacle to overcome. If a black man named Barrack Hussein Obama can become president of a country where just 60 years ago he would have drank out of that water fountain, and where the divisive policies of the bush admin made all people of color suspect, that made all gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transgendered less than full citizens, where women could not count on equal pay and rights, if just a few short years after 9/11 and 2004, Barack Hussein Obama is president:

Then I just have to believe everything will be all right.

Posted by hal | November 8, 2008 3:43 PM
91

I think the point Dan is making is a good one. I was part of a Holocaust program in college and one of the men who spoke with us was a black liberator of Auschwitz. He described his wrestling with his mission "to liberate" when he was required to use a different drinking fountain (among other things) than his fellow white troops. Why was HE being called upon to defend human rights, when his were so violated? He said what he witnessed in Auschwitz changed him, and made him realize the connection between himself and those he was liberating. He later spent his life working with survivors and their families, he made the connection. For some, he also helped them to see his HUMAN face, and not a color, as some originally did, even after all they had experienced! I think this is what Dan is getting at - he's not calling for rioting and pillaging; he is trying to open up conversation and help people make the bridge in human rights violations; to see the HUMAN face, especially for those who were once categorized as subhuman, and had their rights taken away. To realize, this is THE SAME THING, and it's WRONG. Some very big strides have been made. The fact that Prop 8 won by such a slim margin tells us that an important shift has already taken place! Now identifying those who voted yes, and opening up conversation with them, and describing for them what a surprise their vote is, especially considering where they have been as a people, is critical and how you effect more change and stop fear.

Posted by dawicksta | November 8, 2008 3:44 PM
92

I've never understood why American blacks so often don't see the civil rights is civil rights argument. Nelson Mandela and the ANC did/do. Post-Aparthed in 1996 they wrote gay equality into the new Constitution.

I think the problem also lies with US gay organizations. The HRC this election might as well renamed their letters for Hillary Rodham Clinton. The Obama grassroots movement showed that stale joke of an organization for what they are. The HRC is an absolutely an abysmal organization which furthers the perception the "gay rights movement" is a superficial, rich gay male social club and not a civil rights movement at all.

Posted by Jason | November 8, 2008 3:51 PM
93

@92 And Jason I don't understand how Gay Americans can fail to see how the civil rights argument doesn't work for marriage. Blacks oppose discrimination when it comes to housing and jobs. They are opposing gay marriage on relgious grounds not equal rights grounds...they believe that the bible says says gays shouldn't marry but they don't believe that bible says who should be allowed to rent an apartment.

And as for Mandela and the ANC, am glad that they gave gays equal rights but as far as I know they did not give gays marriage which is the issue currently at hand. Or am I missing something? Can same sex couples actually marry in South Africa?

Posted by clarity | November 8, 2008 4:05 PM
94

Okay I stand corrected I just ran across a 2006 article that said that "South Africa on Thursday became the first country in Africa, and the fifth in the world, to legalize same-sex marriages." Bravo for them and their ability to not let religion dominate thier country.

Posted by clarity | November 8, 2008 4:08 PM
95

I'm a bit torn up about this one.. I am a gay Native American who has had to move to England to be with his Afro-British partner. I agree with much of what Dan is saying here, it just seems that so many people commenting on how he has "joined the KKK" and charges of "race baiting" are in fact reacting as if blame has been placed.. I didn't get the sense that Dan lays the blame for Prop 8's passage on the door of blacks.. he doesn't point out that white rednecks, seniors and women are to blame because their support for H8 was not a surprise.. it was black support, whether driven by religion or culture, that was the shocker. It simply points out that there is work left to do.

Posted by Frank | November 8, 2008 4:08 PM
96

@90
bringing up HATE crime stats was 100% legitimate. If someone is going to claim that gay racism is more prevelent than black homophobia I want to look at facts. Sorry that hits a nerve with you. If group X claims they are so victimized by group Y but when a hate crime happens between two people of those groups that it is someone in group X who is the perpetrator 99% of the time it makes it obvious there is no validity of their claim and in fact are just trying to justify abuse.
Likewise, there is much hate speech directed at gays from some entertainers of Afircan decent.
I do not see gays doing the same, nor would society allow, say, a gay singer, to put out records containing violent hateful rants towards blacks as has been common the other way around.
These are facts, and important ones.

Posted by jane doe | November 8, 2008 4:12 PM
97

Isn't how funny how right-wing religious conservatives like Palin are mocked but a lot of people don't have a problem when the black community turns around and does essentially the same thing when it comes to gay marriage. Especially ironic given that the same argument (it's Biblical!) was used to justify slavery.

Posted by ironic | November 8, 2008 4:12 PM
98

A point of clarification: Has NPR also joined the Klan? They ran a piece earlier today about the "key" role the African American vote played in helping to pass Prop 8. So...

Posted by Dan Savage | November 8, 2008 4:22 PM
99

"I completely reject the idea that God calls us to be bigots. I completely reject the notion that a ban on gay marriage is an act of Christian faith."

http://princetonprofs.blogspot.com/2008/11/black-folks-and-passage-of-prop-8.html

via Pam's House Blend

Posted by chicagogaydude | November 8, 2008 4:24 PM
100

Thanks for showing your true racist nature, Dan. We all had a feeling, but this just confirms it.

Posted by jeebus | November 8, 2008 4:29 PM
101

Well, Dan, I also heard this on NPR last night: the campaign did a poor job of targeting black and hispanic voters, in spite of the fact that it was very clear that this year's election would bring out unprecedented numbers from each community.

The language on the proposition was confusing, and exit polls show that many voters thought they were voting for gay marriage, by saying 'yes.'

I'm just saying.

Posted by kerri harrop | November 8, 2008 4:30 PM
102

@96: And how does this help at all? This is something to work on with allies, not to take upon yourself. Lecturing and being an outright bitch about this sort of thing accomplishes nothing.

I find the supposed goal of this constant harping on and on to be dubious. If this really was to highlight the problem, why does it have all the markings of a shamefest?

Run a better campaign next time, work with allies, do your homework. Heck, start with Chris Rock, he's spoken out about homophobia before.

Posted by AJ | November 8, 2008 4:30 PM
103

I remember when Cynthea Mckinney lost election in Georgia several years back her campaign manager said "It was the Jews, they bought everyone. why did we lose? J-E-W-S".
Then a member of the black congressional caucaus said he had gotten a lot of phone calls from his constiuents about wanting to "punish the jews". And that they might vote against the Gore/Lieberman ticket as a result.
So tell me.... why are gays being slurred as racist when a few, such as Dan, point out that a majority of blacks have voted to deprive them of their civil rights.
Yet, when African Americans, including prominent politicians and civil rights leaders say that their community wants to "punish the Jews" for voting against Cynthea McKinney (note her opponent was also an African American women)
there's no anger or condemnation of this attitude. Dan just points out that facts, no threats of punishments or boycotting black canidates and you jump on him and try to make him afraid to open his mouth. It's just an attempt to silence someone- censorship by fear of being called racist.

Posted by tracy s | November 8, 2008 4:43 PM
104

Dan, what you're saying is a hell of a lot more than what NPR said, and you know it.

You might want to consider which presidential contenders went around the country calling some people "real Americans" and others "too cosmopolitan." Which campaign said there are parts of the country that are more patriotic than others? Which campaign said that "those people" don't think like you? That group doesn't share your values, and we don't trust them. Which campaign courted bigots by carving out pieces of the country and saying they were the enemy?

And which candidates reached out to those they disagreed with and tried to find some common ground?

Even if you can chew up and digest these exit poll results to mean blacks passed Prop 8 (and I would dispute that), why would you want to drive the point the way you are doing? That strategy lost. Big time.

Posted by elenchos | November 8, 2008 4:44 PM
105

HEY! LOOK OVER THERE! FIRST TRANSGENDERED MAYOR: http://www.komonews.com/news/34147009.html

Posted by AJ | November 8, 2008 4:46 PM
106

Tracy S, speak your mind or not I don't care. You can't censor anyone by calling them a racist. It's called free speech.

(And again this narrative that people can't speak their minds because they're afraid of being called racist is the primary narrative not only of lovely folks like yourself but of every fucking racist and sexist in the world.)

Of course I don't think Dan's a racist. I just don't like to go on SLOG and see a bunch of people who obviously have a checklist of "bad shit blacks have done" drag that shit out.

I hearby condemn my fellow blacks for anti-semitism and homophobia. Is that what you want to hear?

The whole idea that blacks are somehow going to be better for having suffered discrimination is a non-starter. Forget about it.

Posted by daniel | November 8, 2008 4:53 PM
107
Posted by holelottalove | November 8, 2008 4:53 PM
108

@107: Shit! It was Courtney Love all along!

PROTEST AT HER HOUSE, 8PM!

Posted by AJ | November 8, 2008 5:04 PM
109

"Is homophobia a problem in the Black community? Yes, and we've been dealing with it. "

I want to ask #29 what exactly you're doing to deal with it? My neighborhood is about 85% Black, I live within a three-minute walk of 9 Black mainstream churches, and I have never in the five years I've lived here seen an out and open Black gay person in a shop or on the street. Why? Is it because their preachers are thundering out homophobia from their pulpits? Or is it because statistically Blacks are less likely to be gay? You know damn well it's not the latter. Every Black straight person I know has told me at some point, in coded language or directly, either that they have a gay relative or more than one, or that they know one or more gay people in the Black community. Where are all these Black gays? You can't tell me that they're in hiding because the white community rejects them -- there's no white gay community in this area to do that. This town has a population of a half-million people, 65% of whom are Black, and there is one -- and only one -- Black gay bar, not large and not jumping, which leads me to believe that the Black community in general is not doing very much to address the problem of discrimination against its GLBT members. If it were, there would be more social opportunities for them. So I'm seriously asking, what, exactly, is the Black community doing to erase homophobia and discrimination against its GLBT population and when is that effort going to have some effect?

Posted by Calpete | November 8, 2008 5:09 PM
110

Calpete - The problem is that the black community doesn't believe it has a problem with gay blacks, it believes gay black people are the problem and they'd like them to go away, or at least be quiet about their dirty, filthy sexual habits.

So asking them what they're going to do to better integrate gays into their community is equivalent to asking them "What are you going to do to make these Godless evil perverts fit in better?"

It's not just a matter of being treated badly, gay black men have to actively worry about violence from other black men if they find out about their sexuality (yes, I know white gay men get based too, it's a matter of degree).

Posted by terrance | November 8, 2008 5:20 PM
111

If we can ignore the uncomfortable truths about homophobia, perhaps the problem will go away by itself. Smearing dissenters with accusations of race-baiting is a good start.

Onto the next successful gay-rights campaign!

Posted by minty | November 8, 2008 5:22 PM
112

Hey Dan,

If you aren't truly trying to make blacks a scapegoat why not a post about elderly homophobia..they overwhelmingly voted for 8 too. Or Hispanic homophobia? Or Inland California homophobia?

Still, the most appropriate would be Religious homophobia. If it weren't for religion then race would be a non-issue. And you know it.

Posted by clarity | November 8, 2008 5:24 PM
113

Clarity - Because old people and rural whites aren't know for their passion for civil rights. That's the point, we're focused on people that believe in civil rights, expect others to respect their civil rights, but don't see the contradiction in denying rights to others. And people have called out the Hispanic community as well.

Posted by bob | November 8, 2008 5:28 PM
114

I honestly wonder if this is the beginning of the end of your career. Maybe you'll have to do even more damage to yourself in the coming week for that to be true.

It's certainly seems to be the end of a certain kind and level of popularity you had. This comment section gives the impression that's gone now. Maybe you can get it back in your 50s, after people have had time to forget and you can profess or pretend to a change of heart.

Do you really want your legacy to be cheerleading the murder of civilian Iraqis and blaming the blacks for an incompetently run LGBT campaign? Being pro-Bush at the beginning of his first term and being anti-black at the beginning of Obama's?

Seriously, you must stop this.

Posted by whatevernevermind | November 8, 2008 5:29 PM
115

The argument that it's racist to point out something that has been reported as statistically correct (and I say 'reported' because thats all we have to go on) is bullshit.

If we can't talk about one minority voting against the rights of another then the majority will always win. In case you haven't noticed the majority doesn't give a shit about blacks, latinos, jews or gays.

If 70% of gay people had voted to deny the rights of another minority group you better believe we'd deserve to be called out about, and to be held accountable.

Posted by James | November 8, 2008 5:30 PM
116

@113 As I've said before bob Blacks don't view marriage as a civil rights issue they view it as a religious one. Blacks see the analogy when it comes to jobs and employment but not when it comes to marriage - and the only way you can change this is to reach out to the Christian Community and get them to stop seeing it as a religious issue.

Posted by clarity | November 8, 2008 5:35 PM
117

Blacks and Latinos don't owe gay people shit.

Prop 8 is a straight v. gay thing. It is not a racial issue. It is a much wider cultural issue. Gay people won't have equal rights until it is addressed as such.

It really hasn't been very long since being gay was considered a sickness. It wasn't until 1973 that the American Psychiatric Association dropped homosexuality from its list of mental disorders.

It is still ok to hate fags. That is the problem. It isn't right. It's actually kinda weird. It's totally senseless. But it's true, and it knows no racial boundaries.

Posted by backslider | November 8, 2008 5:35 PM
118

Clarity - Did they see it as a civil rights issue before Loving allowed black people to marry people of other races in the south (of course there are passages in the Bible that can be construed to say that interracial marriage is wrong)? I suspect they did.

Posted by bob | November 8, 2008 5:45 PM
119

Omar (from The Wire) should have been the face of "No on Prop 8", they would have won for sure.

Posted by omarfan | November 8, 2008 5:50 PM
120

@118 bob I don't know what the sentiment was then and I'm not going to speculate but I know what the sentiment is now.
"Jeffrey Jackson of Lynwood said he struggled with how he would vote on Proposition 8. On the one hand, as a black man casting his ballot for Obama, he said he had a deep and personal reverence for civil rights. On the other, he is a Pentecostal Christian.

In the end, it was that religious faith that guided his decision. "It's straight biblical," said Jackson, 46. "It's just not right."

I tokk this quote from the LA Times but I have heard it echoed time and time again...religion is trumping civil rights and as long as it's viewed as a religious issue sentiments will not change.

Posted by clarity | November 8, 2008 5:54 PM
121

Everyone should have thepersonal freedom and liberty to make their personal intimate choices about their bodies, reproduction, who they wish to love, and who they wish to bond with, who they wish to raise children and form families with. That's the principle. And that these liberty rigihts should not be denied based on race religion nationality sexual orientation disability etc.

We need to refocus and say "hey are you for freedom and equality? yes? are you for freefom and equality when it comes to schools? jobs ? public accommodations? all public institutions? the right to have and raise kids? the right to reprosuce when and hwo you want or don't want? the right to marry?"

More teaching. And yes, call out the homophones whereever they are and call out all of them. It's a sickness and view I don't get at all, and it is there, and it is hatred and evil. It's as evil as hating someone for their race. But I think it's better to not go around thinking "well blacks should be less homophobic, given their experience with discrimination" as that implicitly lets whites off the hook.

Attack all homohphones equally, and attack them for their homophonia not for their race, IOW. Apply the same standards to all groups: whether your group is 25, 50 or 80% homophobic, all the homophobes in your group are wrong. It's not that your group is wrong. The homophobes are wrong.

*Exception: an organization like LDS that singles itself out for active homophibic action is wrong, as a group, and so are its members.

Posted by PC | November 8, 2008 6:01 PM
122

I agree that the 70 percent vote of black voters who approved this is messed up. but statistics tell us that what you're being pissed about is a subgroup of a subgroup.

It's not as if black people are the only reason this went through. White people approved it. So did Hispanic voters. And Hispanic voters are just as oppressed/derided as blacks these days. If not more. They're the new minority. And fuck of gay people for saying you're the new minority. You've always been a minority. It sucks and it shouldn't be happening. We should be fighting it. But seriously, we've got to stop all bigotry.

Fags, you must not be racist. You must fight it. Blacks and Hispanics must learn that they're not the only ones being oppressed. And just because a black guy is in the White House doesn't mean racism is over.

The decision was a bad one. No matter what color the voter was.

Posted by Sam | November 8, 2008 6:18 PM
123

Since we're all trying to end homophobia, can we start by recognizing that referring to ourselves as "fags" is a manifestation of internalized homophobia, and only encourages bigots to continue to treat us like shit?

Posted by goo | November 8, 2008 6:25 PM
124

Okay, Dan, we get it about the skewed numbers who voted for Prop 8.

I now challenge you from now forward IN EVERY SINGLE POST from you related to Prop 8 to SUGGEST CONSTRUCTIVE WAYS TO ENGAGE THESE COMMUNITIES AND CHANGE MINDS instead of continuing to repeat yourself about the voting numbers and how horrible and ironic it is. You might not want it to sound like blame, but tell that to the black gay men who were called "the N-word" and other horrible things by White Gay Men when these guys tried to join them at a No on Prop 8 protest?

see: http://rodonline.typepad.com/rodonline/2008/11/n-word-and-raci.html

I'm sure the IRONY of THAT apparent to you, yes?

Sounds like everyone needs a little sensitivity training, eh?


Posted by Andy Niable | November 8, 2008 6:29 PM
125

I think the real problem is that homophobia and related ignorance is very prevalent among low-income and under-educated Americans, as well as strongly religious Americans of any class--and blacks are over-represented in those first two (overlapping) groups. Add in the fact that black Americans tend also to be strongly religious, and I think you wind up with the appearance of a relationship between race and homophobia. But that's just too simplistic an explanation: what you really have is a relationship between income/class, education, religion, and homophobia--and the mitigating problem of the relationship between those first three things and ethnicity in American society. The problem with saying "Black Americans are more homophobic" is that it's treating race and homophobia together in a vacuum and ignoring the function of those other things. Do I think Dan's racist? No, I think he's just oversimplifying what looks like a statistical relationship between race and homophobia, and is actually a relationship between several other factors and homophobia. I don't think we have any polling data on Prop 8 that shows income/class vs. education level vs. religious affiliation vs. race/ethnicity vs. actual vote, which is what we'd need to draw any kind of real conclusion about this.



Also, I don't think Clarity's wrong in saying that - while it does seem jarring on the surface that black Americans should vote yes on Prop 8 - if they are viewing it in terms of a primarily religious issue instead of a civil rights issue, it wouldn't seem like a contradiction to them. Did black Americans see biracial marriage as a civil rights issue back in the day? Probably. Should they see same-sex marriage as a civil rights issue now? Sure. But then, so should everyone else. We can argue about the relationship between race and homophobia till the second coming, but in the long run, I think it's just going to be way more constructive to address homophobia among under-educated/low income/religious Americans, regardless of race/ethnicity. That's a big enough job on its own, and would yield enough positive results, if we did it right, to make the difference.

Posted by Darcy | November 8, 2008 6:36 PM
126

"If you look at the history of their civil rights and relgious leaders (Malcolm X, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Farrakhan, Jerimiah Wright, etc) you will see it's not a two way street."

Yes Jane, these are the civil rights leaders of the black community. How convenient. There are some names missing from your scary black mens post, but I'm sure you knew that.
___________

You call them civil rights leaders? Wow, cause every one of them has done what Dan has done (and worse, sometimes much worse). When they do it their civil rights leaders. When he does it he's a racist. The list wasn't of "scary black men".... but black men who get a free pass for saying things that for anyone else would lead to Michael Richards-like public scorn at best, and for others who's hate speak has lead to hate crimes, prison.

ps- The lame old excuse that these civil rights leaders have "done so much for the black community" is weak. Dan has done a lot for the gay community but you sure wouldn't give him a free pass if he exercised the same free speech as these goons.

Posted by jane doe | November 8, 2008 6:42 PM
127

@24- Linking Dan's essay to a black guy being called the N-word in not constructive or honest. The idea that he should censor himself as though his rather gently worded comments could cause an outbreak of the n-word left and right doesn't fly. By that logic EVERYONE should have to muzzle themselves.
-Talking about Islamic extreamists could cause hate crimes towards Muslims, Arabs and other ethnic groups seen as likely to be Muslim
- Talking about Israel could cause hate crimes, like the murder at the Jewish center a couple years back.
-Talking about homophobia could cause gays to hate straight people.
-Talking about animal cruelty could lead to terrorism by animal rights activists.
-Talking about enviornmentalism could lead to eco-terrorism.
-Criticizing politicians could lead to assasination attempts.
-Talking about hate crimes against African Americans could cause black-on-white crime to increase.

Posted by sam | November 8, 2008 7:17 PM
128

actually that was directed @124 not 24.

And no, he doesn't need sensitivity training.
Malcolm X is a revered political figure who, by your definition could have used a little "sensitivity training" too. Dan is not a poodle, he's a human being.

Posted by sam | November 8, 2008 7:20 PM
129

Uh jane, seriously curious is there anyone who's gone to prison in the US for hate speech?

Also Jane what's your fucking problem with Wright?

Lisa Miller wrote, “As a leader, Wright defied convention at every turn. In an interview with the Chicago Tribune last year, he recalled a time during the 1970s when the UCC decided to ordain gay and lesbian clergy. At its annual meeting, sensitive to the historic discomfort some blacks have with homosexuality, gay leaders reached out to black pastors. At that session, Wright heard the testimony of a gay Christian and, he said, he had a conversion experience on gay rights. He started one of the first AIDS ministries on the South Side and a singles group for Trinity gays and lesbians—a subject that still rankles some of the more conservative Trinity members, says Dwight Hopkins, a theology professor at the University of Chicago and a church member.”

Posted by daniel | November 8, 2008 7:51 PM
130

Terrance, I get what you're saying there, but what I'm asking is how is this going to be addressed. We can't keep saying there's massive homophobia in any community and then just sitting back as though there were nothing further to say, unless we plan to spend the rest of our lives saying there's massive homophobia in whatever community and then just sitting back and being finished. Something has to be done. Religious leaders have to be challenged, and communities have to be educated. How many people in the fundamentalist Christian community actually have been taught and understand that Leviticus is basically a purity code for the priesthood? How many people in the Christian community have been asked to think with any seriousness about the contradictions involved in enforcing some of the Old Testament's strictures but not others? It's a hoary tale, but I'm still seeing a lot of "God's Law" types who wear mixed fibres and eat shellfish but wouldn't sell their daughters into slavery under any circumstances. Why are they not being challenged by their GLBT brothers and sisters to think about "God's Law" as it's propounded and lived in their communities? Why are they not being challenged by their brothers and sisters, GLBT or not, as to the decision involved in interpreting one prohibition out of an entire code of conduct as condemning a substantial subset of the population? People like me can't do that: I'm white and not a Christian. People like them have to do it: people of color and people who profess to be Christian -- people working within their own community. And they have to start now. They can't sit around and complain about massive homophobia but do nothing unless they really want to perpetuate it and are content to be seen as do-nothing whiners.

Posted by Calpete | November 8, 2008 8:52 PM
131

Here in the UK the black community is notoriously homophobic.. and it is not linked to religion but cultural attitudes springing from the traditions of the Caribbean- the BBC even ran a documentary last year examining the phenomenon. NO one is claiming that ALL blacks are homophobic.. but we need to acknowledge that the black communities of Europe and America are consistantly harder on gay rights issues than the white communty- making wild accusations about someone pointing this out doesn't change the facts.

Posted by Frank | November 8, 2008 11:29 PM
132

If things were reversed- a huge disproporiate % of gays voting in favor of depriving AA's of their civil rights would AA's decline to notice, or point this out? They would do both, loudly, and probably not very diplomatically either.

Posted by sam | November 8, 2008 11:34 PM
133

something that people keep glossing over:

AN EXIT POLL.

OF 224 AFRICAN-AMERICANS.


let's try this again.

224.
224.

224!

Posted by meep | November 9, 2008 12:07 AM
134

also,

the "gay community" and "african-american community" are not mutually exclusive or monolithic groups of people who think the same way.

Posted by meep | November 9, 2008 12:12 AM
135

I can't believe you are keeping this shit up. Where are the dogs and water hoses during these protests? You really are a racist.

Posted by Simone | November 9, 2008 6:50 AM
136

This Dan rant reminds me of his support for the Iraq war. Blacks alone are not to blame for the Prop 8 victory. Very sad of Dan. I am disappointed in him...for a second time.

Posted by ThomasG | November 9, 2008 9:15 AM
137

@135- He is really racist? YAAAAAAAWWWWWWN

How about when Rev Wright spoke about "white greed"

Or Obama talked about his "typical white grandmother"

Jesse Jackson saying Obama was a "N*****" and referring to Jews as Hymie.

How about Andrew Young talking about the "Jews, Asians, and Arabs" who victimize the black community.

How about Al Shaprton's helping along 2 lynchings- Crown Heights and Freddie Fashion Mart. The latter was the worst hate crime in NY history.

How about all those black men who sing hatefully about bitches and hos and faggots. Why don't you breathe down their neck for a while?

So If Dan is racist, what are these people? Oh, I get it, they are CIVIL RIGHTS LEADERS, can't be held to the same standard as a sex advise columnist.
Freedom of speech in America seems to be determined, not by what is actually hate speech or dispariging, but what gets black people hot under the collar.

If you want to see hate speech tune into the blog for Vibe, Hip Hop, or Source magazine.

Posted by jane doe | November 9, 2008 9:33 AM
138

I'm sure Dan learned a very important lesson from all this- black people CAN NOT be criticized. No matter how gently. Just sit at the back of the bus and shut up, they say.

P.s- For all of those who are hurling accusations of "racism" ya might want to look at some of what Charles Mudade has blogged.
Oh, I forgot, he's black, can't be judged, sorry!

Posted by sam | November 9, 2008 11:33 AM
139

Jane Doe Fuck you.

But anyway I see your point and as a black man I'll get right on talking to all of my rapper friends.

I can only assume you're a Puma based on how stupid you sound.

Here's some Obama hate speech for you:

"Obama: Well, you know she’s extremely proud, and the uh, the point I was making was not that my grandmother, uh harbors, uh any racial animosity, she doesn’t. But she is a uh, typical white person who, uh, you know uh if she sees somebody on the street that she doesn’t know, you know, there’s a reaction that’s been bred inta, uh, our experiences that, that don’t go away and that sometimes come out in, in the wrong way and, and that’s just the nature of race in our society. We have to break through it, and what makes me optimistic is you see each generation feeling a little bit less like that, uh and that’s pretty powerful stuff."

Posted by daniel | November 9, 2008 11:49 AM
140

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Posted by Pit Bull in Kent | November 9, 2008 1:17 PM
141

It goes without saying that black people could not have possibly swayed prop 8 one way or the other just as they weren't a significant factor in Obama carrying California. And I understand that is not the entirety of Savage's complaint. I also understand that homophobia is a problem in the black community. Nonetheless, the implication of Savage's posts is that black people are to blame. And the damage he and other thoughtless commentators like him have done to the process of rebuilding a coalition is going to be lasting.

As someone on Daily Kos has pointed out, over 90% of the ever decreasing black population in California lives in 9 of the state's 58 counties. Most of the remaining counties have black populations that are less than 2% of the total. The exit polling we are all relying on doesn't say where they polled the black people who supposedly voted for prop 8 at 70%. In other words randomly polling black people in California doesn't make much sense if they all live in a handful of places.

She also points out that 3,000,000 absentee ballots were cast and of course not sampled. Combined, these two pieces of information (or the lack thereof)makes one wonder about how accurate the picture of black behavior at the polls can be.

But even without that information, homophobia in all ethnic communities is not a secret. Mormons and Catholics launched an effective disinformation campaign targeting people of color. Civil rights is a political struggle. You've got to fight for your position, even if its one -- like a basic human right -- that you are entitled to. And we did not do nearly enough to convince voters (minority or otherwise) to support us.

Posted by hds | November 9, 2008 2:54 PM
142

We've moved beyond political correctness to the fear of being mocked as politically correct for calling an obvious racist a racist. Won't stop me.

Jane you're just another fear ridden racist asshole exercising your knee jerk loathing of black men with that little catalog of scary and angry black men you just ran. Your fear and animus would be much better directed at any number of white christian leaders who are working tirelessly to strip woman of reproductive rights and who won't consider their work done until woman are back at home having and raising babies and obeying their husbands. But instead you take the easy way out which is to be expected of people like you and Dan who have become so accustomed to their own unexamined racism they don't recognize it anymore.

Fuck you.

Posted by HDS | November 9, 2008 3:07 PM
143

White gay people with money are racist. News at 11.

Posted by Jay | November 9, 2008 4:50 PM
144

Well it makes sense, since Dan is basically a conservative on all issues except for gay and reproductive rights (oh, and wars once they're safely unpopular), it shouldn't surprise us that he's taken up race baiting. Not that it matters, since the Stranger won't be losing any revenue, but I will not be reading the Stranger or the SLOG anymore. There's only so much hypocritical, left-coast smug yuppie bullshit I can take before I have to call it quits. I will lend my support to gay and black Americans who can find common cause.

Posted by Jay | November 9, 2008 4:54 PM
145

It's about religion period. African-Americans are way more likely to be religious conservatives than the population as a whole. You saw the effect of that on Prop 8. However, as similar gay marriage propositions have passed in states with only small African-American populations fixating on that isn't going to get you anywhere.

Posted by Jay | November 9, 2008 5:18 PM
146

#145 is an impostor with a different IP address who's trying to discredit my post at 144 for some pathetic reason. (this is my last post, any other post from Jay isn't me)

Posted by Jay | November 9, 2008 5:24 PM
147

@142-
people like you and Dan who have become so accustomed to their own unexamined racism they don't recognize it anymore.


Unexamined? You mean non-existent. I refuse to recognize something that doesn't exist to appease someone (you) who is clearly an emotionally unbalanced race card playin fool. Your biazarre diatribes about "scary black men" and the like shows you are unable to ready anything AS IT IS. But instead get all over emotion and project your own wacked out theories of what people like Dan and I "really mean".
This is why a dialogue on race doesn't take place. People like you take the most minor criticism and either blow it out of proportion or take it out of context. Then you have dismissed the person as at best a fool or petty bigot, or at worse, a Nazi or the KKK. It is old, and predictable. And your silly name calling doesn't phase me. You simply shield yourself from any fact the is unpleasant to you by labeling it racist. YAAAAAAAAWN.

Posted by jane doe | November 9, 2008 5:47 PM
148

"Unexamined? You mean non-existent. I refuse to recognize something that doesn't exist to appease someone (you) who is clearly an emotionally unbalanced race card playin fool."

Nonexistent? Please. Jane Doe, I'm glad this discussion came up, because it gives a great opportunity for not-so-closet racists like you to point out your own issues. Now I suppose you will follow up with some post about how "some of my best friends are people of color", or simply the fact that you constantly hear the "old" and "predictable" attacks when you don't happen to be at your local Klan meeting.

No need to tune into the Source or the Vibe, we get more than enough hate speech from you.

I'd say go to Hell, but I'm afraid anyone that has to stand your company for more than five minutes has had that displeasure.

Enjoy the virtual world where you can at least feel important....


Oh, and....YAAAWN. Heh.

Posted by Not so | November 9, 2008 7:14 PM
149

No, I mean unexamined. Dialogues on race don't take place because people like you, Ms. Doe, don't understand the difference between minor criticism and criticism informed by racist bias, and we've all got some of it. But some have more than others.

I'm not sure what you mean by that hackneyed phrase "race card" but if you mean calling out racist bias where it is obvious, I'm happy to play.

I have no interest in blaming white people for any of the problems that affect some black people and that some black people make for themselves --- if for no other reason than it gets black people nowhere -- and readily accept the role that black people must accept in bettering their condition.

But To paraphrase the greatest camp line of them all: "But cha are a racist, Jane. You are a racist."

Rattling off a list of black men who have said nasty things and capping it with a reference to misogynist black rappers, as if black rappers had cornered the market on misogyny or weren't already the target of plenty of criticism from many black leaders and ordinary people. (Hey Jane, you do realize that white boys of a certain age can be pretty damn awful on that score as well, don't you? And I'm not talking just about the guys that buy the music.)

And as to taking things out of context, your quotes from Wright and Obama are a great example of trimming the context to fit your bias.

I avoid comparisons to National Socialism and try to keep the comparisons to the KKK to actual Klan members. But petty bigots like you are a dime a dozen.

Posted by HDS | November 9, 2008 7:48 PM
150

Now I suppose you will follow up with some post about how "some of my best friends are people of color"

Not in the least. Like I've said 1000 times, I feel no need to "prove" I'm not racist. What seems to piss you and HDS off is that I am unwilling to get defensive. The burden of prove is on the accuser and you have said nothing of substance.

or simply the fact that you constantly hear the "old" and "predictable" attacks when you don't happen to be at your local Klan meeting.


Yup, wow, and you wonder why I say you play the race card? This is just 3rd grade babytalk. Yeah anyone like me, who dares talk back to a black person must wear a white sheet, hate black people, use the N-word. Apparently your definition of a virulent racist is someone who wins an argument with a black man, which is exactly what I've done with you. I don't plan on responding to any more of your posts cause I have a feeling they are being written by a child.

Posted by jane doe | November 9, 2008 8:11 PM
151

Well you're sounding pretty defensive to me, Jane. "Talk back to a black person?" Which southern bastion of enlightement do you hail from, I wonder?

And I don't doubt that you won't trot out the "some of my best friends are black" line. And I thank you for that. You shouldn't have to say that to make your point, whatever it was. Especially since we all know it would be a whopping lie.

Speaking specifically of blacks and whites, the honest to god truth is that not many black or white people have best friends of the other race. (And you are the least likely of candidates for that dubious prize). The situation has improved a lot of course, but we all know we're still pretty socially segregated.

Posted by HDS | November 9, 2008 8:55 PM
152

According to the Constitution of the USA and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, to which the USA was an original signatory about 60 years ago, human rights are inalienable and the property of all humans. No single group owns civil rights, all of humanity possess civil rights. The principle of constitutional law called harmonization comes into play with the California Constitution: equality before the law in the state constitution matches the American Constitution's 14th Amendment's clear statement of equal protection. Given that principle, Proposition 8 violates a fundamental bedrock principle of both California and American constitutional law. Should it stand it would render the state constitution useless, as it would violate itself.

To all the bigots who believe gay people should be consigned to second class citizenship, I say: clearly, you have no idea what you have done with this single illogical and irrational vote on Proposition 8. Not only are gay communities in California really pissed off, but a 2nd Stonewall Movement is being birthed across the nation - very quickly, very strongly, and the Internet is our organizing tool. Straight folks that have never before been a part of gay activism for equality are joining us in vast numbers, as our cause is JUST, and they are about as pissed off as is everyone else! We will not accept a lessening of our civil rights and no amount of religious posturing will prevent us from moving forward into a civil society with full equality for all Americans.

I video'd the Friday, 7 November 2008, protest in San Francisco. By all accounts, it was bigger than the media are reporting. To check out the crowd, please check out the video at my blog at

http://www.jimboland.com/2008/11/08/an-army-of-lovers-cannot-be-defeated-san-francisco-protests-loss-of-civil-rights-for-gay-peoples-right-to-marry/

Spread the word: we will NOT sit by while our civil rights are lessened! Let's hear it for the 2nd Stonewall Movement!!!!

Posted by James | November 10, 2008 8:58 PM

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