Comments on That's Not Helpful
Fascinating.
Sad and shocking...
but fascinating.
"Bigotry must be addressed, not adopted."
Indeed. Keep your own words in the forefront of your mind, Dan. You often cross yourself up on this yourself.
Just sayin'.
Dan, seriously, stop it. You're fishing for blame and not solutions.
This is enraging. It makes me want to scream.
I agree, but you must remember it's still okay for any black person to say "cracker."
Crazy racist attacks begin....
Matthew @ 2: Examples of Dan's bigotry? Or are we just supposed to guess?
There are homophobic people of all races and there are racist people of all sexual orientations. Racism and homophobia are irrational, so I'm not very surprised by this sad development.
What exactly did you expect all this blanket talk of "black homophobia" to inspire?
To reiterate: the problem is almost entirely religious, not racial. And discussing it in racial terms is likely to evoke these kinds of ugly responses.
It's NOT the skin color that is at issue nor is skin color the enemy. It's the poison from the Religious Radical Extremists that is the Enemy. When you hear a Religious Radical Extremist spouting vomit in the form of Moral-Speak, be brave and call their BS what it is. Write to the editor of the paper about it, make a phone call to your law maker about it. It's time for Gay-Americans to STAND UP STAND UP STAND UP and face the true enemy, Religious Radical Extremists. If you think CIVIL Marriage is the same as RELIGIOUS Marriage you would be a Religious Radical Extremist.
i have noticed a common meme in the wailing over the passage of prop 8 in my home state.
The equating of those who engage in homosexual behavior with ethnic minorities as though they ought to be natural allies. Why would anyone imagine that? Do the Mexicans or the black ethnic minorities owe alliegence with the 'gay cause'? Why anyone would imagine that is beyond me. There is a self-serving reason for this narrative, but nothing more, strikes me as silly truth be told.
Straight people of all folks find having homosexuality shoved in our faces jarring, all of em, on some level, and you can bet on that. As to the politics, well, i was born and raised in SF, have had many gay friends. That being said, i think the left is tired of waving the rainbow flag, which is redmeat for the abortion clinic bombing set, who also seem less inclined to waving that bloody flag...both sides are tired of getting burned, especially over shit like this. How'd the white vote break in CA???
The Yes on 8 people must be delighted by this, not just passing 8, but driving a deeper, sharper wedge between groups that should be allies.
Hypocrite.
Dan, look at how your fellow gays (and I mean the white ones) are treating the Turks in Europe. The country's not getting any whiter, and you folks just revealed your true selves to the Democrats most loyal constituency. If this hits the black press in a mainstream way, then the incoming minorities will consistently vote against you. But considering the gay community's historic treatment of minorities (Cecil Rhodes, without whose colonializing of South Africa, AIDS might not have become a pandemic; Andrew Sullivan, who said AIDS is over--for whites who could afford the medicine, to bookend the argument...I've got more), perhaps the blacks were far too canny in predicting how quickly you would betray them?
look at it this way too; all teh abortion redefinition ballot measures failed. Only the homo rights ones passed. the gay issue is the new it thing for social conservatives...makes you wonder what will happen in 5-10 years.
I learned you can't trust any minority group,,EVER!! Damn if I am going to vote for Obama in 2012 or hire any fags, blacks or wet backs either.
White ONLY!! And preferably male.
People from outside a minority are in a poor position to bring this kind of thing up in a constructive manner. The blogger you quoted earlier, TerranceDC, is in a much better position to offer this sort of criticism without looking like he's engaging in race-baiting.
Them's the rules. Glass houses and all that.
Psuedo-backtracking on race-baiting isn't helping.
The incident you cite is the logical next step of your approach to this subject up to this point.
Yes, there is a problem. Unfortunately, your own approach to it would worsen it. Since your credibility on this topic is, at best, compromised, you must stop bringing it up.
Please stop.
Dan, please stop pretending you care about black people. You have never written about black victims of anti-gay violence. You wrote more about Ashton Kutcher. You even presumed to think that black renters would be overjoyed to be priced out of their rented properties by the white gays moving into the gentrified urban ghetto. Because everyone owns their own home, right? Yes folks, Dan gets out of his hipster circle now and then. A real Mother Theresa, that man.
@15
Same old, same old. To paraphrase civil rights leader Andrew Young "First it was Jews, then it was Koreans and now it’s Arabs.” And now its the gays. And women. We pass you by and you scream you're being "taken advantage of". You committ hate crimes on us and complain we are "racist" against you. You scrutinize us under a microscope, while demand you we scrutinize you through a telescope.
You have burned a cross on the lawn of every minority in this country that doesn't fail. That is how you know if you are successful in American- You will be targeted by AA "civil rights" leaders who claim your "taking advantage" of them and persecuting them.
It's like the KKK claiming the NAACP persecuted them. This is a tried and true technique since the days of Malcolm X- accuse other groups for what you are most guilty of.
Mormons, Christians, Catholics, Jews, Muslims: California is riddled with all of them. It's considered to be very religiously diverse, and it's also considered to be one of the least religious states in the US. It's the most populous state in the US, so none of this is really a surprise.
Every one of these religions aren't fond of us. They didn't need some dumb fucking Mormon knocking on their door to vote yes on Prop 8.
This is about population and percentages. 70% of male black voters voted against Prop 8, regardless of the number of male black voters there were, that's 70% of all the male black voters. That's a crazy majority. Race is a problem. Race will always be a problem because it's a problem just to discuss it. It's racist.
Ironically, the 'gay community' appeared to be solidly behind Zio-con likud candidate Hillary Rodham during the primary.
Jane, to reiterate my original post, upon which the next several only elaborate, identity politics is a means for organizers to enrich themselves by re-opening old wounds for profit. The black leaders, the Mormon leaders and the leaders of the gay non-profits have no interest in the freedom of the "proles"; it would put them out of a job. Thanks to the prevailing climate, the corporations have managed to conflate "civil rights" with "consumer rights". Since the customer is always right, there is no responsibility--for racism or homophobia. The matter is always "freedom": of speech, of religion, of association.... What I am saying is that this is a fragile liberal coalition, one which, were it to crumble, would unleash upon all the wrath of the majority--why do you think the Freepers are bringing up Hitler? Why are they hastening to the gun shops? This is scary. But candy-ass mea culpas have no place here. Dan needs to soul-search and think, as a person infinitely more influential than I, about a way to keep it from fracturing over a delay in gaining rights that is at most a few years away. But thanks for typecasting me....
I think of this man's comment as being no more or less offensive than the 10 trillion times I've heard black men have used the word faggot.
I'm sure African Americans, with their hatred of double standards, can fogive this man as quickly as they forgave Jesse Jackson for calling Obama the dreaded N-word
@21 is entirely correct.
It is downright EERIE how much this conversation and the debate echoes the language and logic of the civil rights movement. I have yet to Dan (though I mostly loathe the man) or anyone else in the Prop 8 threads say anything racist or race-baiting. There is a legitimate conern that the LGBQT front has consistently been behind pushing issues of race equality and social justice. We have every right to be outraged that this same group who should understand our struggle is allowing the kind of abuse and dehumanization gays face in the US today. It hurts because we blindly assumed humanity would trump religious intolerance. Where was Obama et al. when we needed them? There were many black leaders that could have used their influence to push for equality.
A few bad apples who may have racist attitudes does not the gay community make. However, a large portion of black voters in California are bigots, as Tuesday's results have shown. That is a sad fact.
"However, a large portion of black voters in California are bigots, as Tuesday's results have shown. That is a sad fact."
And a large portion of Asian voters, and Latino voters, and Arab voters, and White voters, and Old voters, and Christian voters, and Jewish Voters, and Muslim Voters, and I can't even guess at how many more.
Stop blaming the blacks. Just stop it. This myth that a tiny number of black voters cost us Prop 8 -- when the No on Prop 8 campaign did absolutely nothing to target, befriend or educate the black community and when EVERY other community voted against us -- is a lie, it's ugly, it's destructive and your stupidity is making us look bad and hurting our cause.
Stop it.
@27
Ummmm, it's not a lie. Did you even look at the statistical breakdown? The majority of white voters were against Prop 8, large majority of black voters were for Prop 8 and every other ethnicity was split evenly.
Are you purposefully being misleading or have you just not seen the data?
and what about bi's?
The real problem: racism among white gay men. I couldn't find any journal articles about gay men being more racist than straight men, but I wouldn't doubt it for a second. I have gay friends/acquaintances who have ranged from openly racist to clearly closeted racists. I used to walk by The Men's Room/C.C. Attle's every day and I've heard 3 angry n-bombs from the patio on different days. It would explain the gay community's willingness to attack the black community for, well, anything. It also explains this article and McCain's historic support for a Republican (27%) by LGBT folks.
It seems to me the biggest problem here is racist white gay men, not homophobic black people.
Also, @27
You are misinformed about the anti-Prop 8 people as well. They repeatedly begged black leaders to help fight this disgusting proposition, including the big O, but it fell on deaf ears. Politics trumped doing the right thing, plain and simple.
I saw this coming a mile away. First come the false analogies, such as Gay Marriage=Interracial Marriage. This might pull on the heart-strings of those well-off enough to temper their initial reaction long enough for reason to prevail, but did you stop to think about whether black actually approved of it when they saw a white man with a black woman? My angry comments are based off of the fact that I am mixed, and I argued for Obama back when my more racially-pure brethren were saying, "He's not black, he's mixed." Do you even know how that made me feel? The hypocrisy of the current celebrations overwhelms me. I volunteered at an AIDS clinic, and have also myself been thrown to the ground by a group of my 'brothers' and kicked in the side so often that I had to crawl across the street to get medical assistance. But the consistent reaction I get when the situation that calls for me to relate these stories has consistently been boredom. Middle-class people don't see it because it is restricted to the poor neighborhoods. The gay press doesn't cover it because the victims of it don't have the income to buy the upscale products of their advertisers. What can I say? Am I willing to risk my life for this bloc of tiered demographics, with corresponding clothing lines, neighborhoods, drugs and de facto laws?
If I am bashed again, the police will take twice as long to get there. Must be the neighborhood.
The press won't cover it if I die, because I'm not a blond like Matthew Shepard.
Perhaps if I lived in San Francisco, and was kicked out of my apartment by my roommate for being gay, then I could experience the singular joy of being hustled out of the Ghetto doorway I sleep in by Gavin Newsome's thug cops. The rich gays love him, though.
All I am asking is: how is it reasonable to ask me to risk my life so that you can continue on in "the lifestyle to which you have become accustomed"? I feel for you, HONESTLY. But I can't stomach the concept that what has happened to me is only of interest as an adjunct to a larger, more important point the expression of which will constitute your entire say on the matter of civil rights. I take your words as the attempt to squeeze something more out of me. I can't do it. Please don't break up this coalition before Obama even gets into office, Dan.
@28, please read the earlier comments today.
http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/11/homophobia_isnt_a_problem_in_the_african
The 70% figure was based off of one exit poll of 224 African-Americans. Every single other poll shows about-equal support for Prop 8 among black and white voters. This exit poll was not random, not statistically significant, and proven to be wrong on other measures (like total yes/no votes on a variety of candidates and measures).
The 74% support for Prop 8 among African-American women is particularly ridiculous, because every other single poll and measures has shown black women support gay marriage more than white men.
Read Nate Silver's article on why exit polls are worthless. His comments about exit polls at the state level are damning enough, but reduce that to 224 non-random people talking about a sensitive subject and the exit poll figure becomes out-of-this-world worthless.
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/ten-reasons-why-you-should-ignore-exit.html
I was amazed at the vitriole directed at African-Americans, who despite percentage still did not exceed the numbers of whites who voted for Prop. 8, had all the blame thrown at them. 75% of a minority is still not 49% of the majority.
You were fast to accuse us of bigotry, not seeing that the rush to blame us - singularly at first - was a bigotry in itself.
You accuse us, as though being homosexual you yourselves are immune to bigotry. I've met and encountered plenty bigotted gays and lesbians in my lifetime.
Further, what amazes me is that any group in this country equates their experience with that of African-Americans. Save Native Americans who experienced a separate and unique form of horror - our experience is unparalleled. I'm not just talking slavery, I mean all of it.
Here is my question to all of those who seek to secure civil rights in this country: Where are your martyrs? Where are your sacrificial lambs? Where are your years and years of protests, civil disobedience, willingness to go to jail, and bury your people? We are not given rights in this country, even those we should have. They are earned, they are cajoled, they are bullied, they are legislated, they are guilted into existence after LONG LONG LONG years of struggle and strife.
Do you think you will get them because you believe you should have them? Instead of comparing yourselves to African-Americans, perhaps you should learn from them, and set about to earn yours. You will have help along the way. But in this country, you have to MAKE the powers that be give you what you should have.
And in the meantime, calling people names, pointing the finger of blame, and making scapegoats of other minorities - not a good place to start.
I do not get this talk about "We have every right to be outraged that this same group who *should* understand our struggle is allowing the kind of abuse and dehumanization gays face in the US today."
Why should they understand? They are not the same types of issues. This is what gay leaders do not understand-- there message does not connect. We're not talking about schools, public accommodations, voting, employment or housing discrimination. We're talking about something very different-- and yet gay leadership simply cannot formulate a positive, winning message. That is why these issues go down at the polls. Blaming blacks and citing their "black homophobia" (since when did homophobia get a color?) will not help.
The fact of the matter is that the majority of voters do not see marriage as a civil rights issue. They see it as a moral issue. That is why these issues have worked in 30 out of 30 states-- people do not see marriage as some right. We need to think about that and come up with a more effective strategy. Let's be very clear, blacks cannot be blamed for the passage in CA or any of the 29 other states. The gay leaders who thought in 2004 that marriage was coming "whether you liked it or not" have been slapped in the face 30 times over. Everybody thought that CA would never do it because it's not Ohio or Alabama. Guess what? CA is closer to Mississippi than you thought.
It is time for a new strategy.
whatevernevermind is right, Dan.
Many factors played into this. There's a tradition in homobigotry that all comes back to one thing: religion. And you've been over that several times. More relevantly, the power of religion is large in California's abundant suburbs.
The saddest thing I heard was via a friend in SF that his gay white neighbors who voted No on 8 were calling black passerbys on the streets N-words, because they were angry that Prop 8 passed.
THAT's the part that's really worrying.
I missed jrrrl's comment above, but I'm sadly not surprised.
There's way too much romanticization of "Redneckness" in Seattle's gay community to the point that it's not just romanticization anymore.
@32
Give me a fucking break. As someone who is also mixed (Indian-Caucasian) and someone who grew up dirt ass poor, like food stamp commodity peanut butter poor, I have to call bullshit. So poor, multi-ethnic gays don't care about equality, civil rights or the opportunity to ever get married? Thank you for speaking for all of us. Human rights is not an invention of the upper class, friend.
Boycott Dan Savage!
Thanks, Dan Palin.
@32. I have no idea what you are trying to say, and I read your comment three times trying to figure it out.
@41
"The rich gays love him, though.
All I am asking is: how is it reasonable to ask me to risk my life so that you can continue on in "the lifestyle to which you have become accustomed"? I feel for you, HONESTLY. But I can't stomach the concept that what has happened to me is only of interest as an adjunct to a larger, more important point the expression of which will constitute your entire say on the matter of civil rights. I take your words as the attempt to squeeze something more out of me. I can't do it. Please don't break up this coalition before Obama even gets into office, Dan."
It is your coded language I am responding to. You talk about this being an issue of "rich gays" and other nonsense, and you know exactly what I'm talking about. You've just chosen to sidestep the issue by pleading ignorance.
Thanks for drawing a false conclusion. What no one seems to be getting, is that sending a thousand dollars to "No on 8" does not entail the same risk as outing yourself to people you know are going to kick your ass or kill you. Which is what I feel is being asked of me to do, as I lack the thousand bucks. Does your average gay's equation of the blacks' civil rights with their own amount to a willingness to go up against firehoses and German Shepherds to achieve their goals? Or do they think that a television character who is gay will do the job? If the latter, then the gays are in for some rough awakenings. And, given the reaction of an increasing amount of gays towards blacks--irrespective of sexual orientation, class, or EVEN THE WAY THEY THEMSELVES VOTED, in the face of a single setback which is hardly unusual in the context PROVIDED BY HISTORY, I have reason to doubt the sincerity of their commitment to civil rights in general. If a poll of Mexicans who are not yet fluent in English suggests homophobic attitudes, will we see Dan turn into Lou Dobbs or Tom Tancredo? What is lacking here is responsibility. Gay apathy and complacency is responsible for Proposition 8. Looking for a scapegoat in individuals is a symptom of something much, much more worrisome. What I'm saying is that if Dan can come up with something that I can do to REDEEM MYSELF FOR WHAT OTHERS HAVE DONE (that reads nicely, don't it?) that doesn't involve exposing myself to further bodily harm or trying to funnel more money I can ill-afford into fraudulent advocacy groups, I beg him to let me know. I suspect, however, that he doesn't know either.
@43, you've apprently never been to the reservation, because I am certainly not out of my element. Being openly gay in a small rural community and being Native American doesn't make me an expert on anything, but do have experience in being open, visible and fighting for a voice. It's very true that gays have it easy in some repects. They can mask their differences when needed and move more fluidly through society. However, the point is that no one should have to. I fail to see why you are so angry about this conversation. It is a statistical fact (regardless of the flawed exit polls, there are many other general scientific studies and polls on the subject) that blacks tend to be less tolerant of gays. Having this discussion is crucial to moving forward. Why does the mere mention of discussion have a knee jerk racism reaction?
@15 You say "The country's not getting any whiter, and you folks just revealed your true selves to the Democrats most loyal constituency. If this hits the black press in a mainstream way, then the incoming minorities will consistently vote against you."
Damn, some black people have no problem adapting the attitudes ones used against them. I have heard these threats of "punishing" upity hispanics, asians, jews, and women before from AfriKKan Americans. The last time I heard it used again them was the 1940's. You know what? 88% of the population IS NOT black and maybe we should start punishing you for your threats. Funny how you crying "racial profiling" when someone mentions, say crime statistics, yet you are the first to notice and start hollering about those upity________ (fill in the blank) who have in some was dissed you. Shame on you.
Of course I care about it. Advocacy groups don't--Dan himself has stated as much. I care more about HIV, housing discrimination, workplace discrimination, health care--all of these things relate to Gay rights. Marriage is, to me, the icing on the cake compared to the myriad worries of getting AIDS, getting evicted, getting fired, or being able to afford health care, much less the right to visit my partner in a hospital! I fear that should marriage equality have been achieved solely through commercials and celebrity endorsements, all of those other, more pressing concerns would have been immediately thrown under the bus. Have I made myself clear? I want Dan to get married, much as I think he's a closeted Libertarian. I am only capable of so much. And I have given of my time and my soul, too.
My referencing my heritage was to show that bringing up mixed race marriages as an example to blacks is a rather poor idea. It presumes that blacks aren't, indeed, are INCAPABLE of racism. That is entirely wrong. This error proceeds forth from the assumption that human rights can safely be divided according to the demographics most favorable to the corporations who support them. This has the single effect of fracturing the movement along all sorts of lines, with many feeling they are unaffected and subsequently passing the buck to those who cannot afford the risk. There are bad neighborhoods to be gay in, no? People should have the right to be citizens regardless of whether they are gay or straight, right? But everything is gay this or black that or Israel this.... Read the far-right (the only remaining contingent of the right); they are of one mind on all these issues. We are not. But please continue to imply that I am being deliberately obtuse, that I have some ulterior motive in saying that I'm not surprised by this. I'm as angry as you are. But to see this turned into a debate on race....
SEE! This is why we can't have nice things! We blame others when our toys get taken away.
Why not focus on the strong points and go from there? Young folks resoundingly voted against Prop 8-- why not start grass roots and go from there?
I am not threatening anyone, Serena. I have no power to do so. Were I to raise my voice, and I have, there are a great number of people who would say, "He's kind of light-skinned, isn't he?" Had I been able to (I don't live in CA, AZ, etc) I would have cast my vote against it. I am not a representative of the angry blacks. I am appalled at the tone-deaf handling of this by the advocacy groups and the single-mindedness of SOME of the marriage advocates. I don't benefit from a single gov't program--I have a job. I am however, consistently made into a cultural attache for those who are. As far as my "threat", please continue to believe that third-world immigrants are not hellishly socially conservative. While you're at it, paint every poor black person as Pollyanna. Keep in mind that the same mindset which causes blacks to vote for the same party is similarly responsible for a lockstep view of morality. You benefit and lose from one and the same group characteristic. I asked what I could do to help with the sarcasm of someone who knew this was going to happen. You responded by threatening me via the black people's civil rights. That's a step. It is better if I have no illusions about the people I am forced to work with. Perhaps the relationship will improve with time.
I agree with everything you said in your last post, which I think stated your position a lot more clearly than your previous ones. I sincerely apologize if my posts came across as muddled as well. I agree that not everyone needs to agree on every issue to be united, and some issues are definitely more pressing than others. Even though I was not planning on getting married anytime soon, it's maddening to hear such doublespeak about love and acceptance, while leaders within the Democratic party and beyond did little to help fight Prop 8. We did ask for help and it never came. A huge portion of straight allies (including plenty of people of color and celebrities) did fight the good fight. People are trying to mobilize and continue the fight, and Dan is simply positing that having a discussion on non-dominant culture homophobia is part of the solution. At least I think that's what he is trying to do. If it's coming across as a little heavy handed, perhaps the benefit of the doubt should be afforded.
Did @22 and @28 and many of the rest of you not read the linked article?
"why these folks are so caught up in the black voters... There are so many other groups in the exit polling that voted for Prop 8 overwhelmingly (as in, more than 60%):
* The elderly (65+)
* Republicans
* Conservatives
* People who decided for whom to vote in October (but not within the week before the election)
* People who were contacted by the McCain campaign
* Protestants
* Catholics
* White Protestants
* Those who attend church weekly
* Married people
* People with children under 18
* Gun owners
* Bush voters
* Offshore drilling supporters
* People who are afraid of a terrorist attack
* People who thought their family finances were better now than 4 years ago
* Supporters of the war against Iraq
* People who didn't care about the age of the candidates
* Anti-choicers
* People who are from the "Inland/Valley" region of California
* McCain voters
Let's please stop trying to blame Blacks...it's not being Black that leads to homophobia it's being religious. Until you get the churches to realize it's un-Christian to discriminate there will not be much change. Recall that Martin Luther King Jr. wasn't succesful just becuase he cited the constitution... he also went to white churches and made his case that it was un-Christian to discriminate.
I apologize for being muddled as well. Not to mention angry. It took a while to find the proper voice with which to respond to Dan's...bad manners. It's not that his heart isn't in the right place; he just shouted out the first thing that came into his head. His brother sounds like someone I could get along with better in discussion. Then again, I'm sure I'd make a terrible sex columnist.
To return to the issue, this is not just about Gay Marriage. It is a giant powder-keg. How are we going to impress people as to the terror of not being able to sign medical releases for your partner? Most any poor person will simply fold their arms and say, "I don't even have health insurance." The rights are one and the same, but how is that gotten across to one who has never been able to exercise them, and therefore has no respect for them? As far as the marriage issue, could it be that since blacks are historically not the family type that those whose families had managed to survive all of the troubles of poverty would feel them to be at risk--a fear easily cashed in on by opportunistic preachers? On the other side, is it possible that since the gay community is largely segregated by race--to the point of separate black pride PARADES--that it would be easy to demonize a segment with which the majority did not associate with and, indeed, knew nothing about? More, the blacks were verbally assaulted because the gays who did it did so in the knowledge that they were the only ones against whom it was safe to perpetrate such hatred. The scary, homophobic, (possibly) hetero blacks might have bashed them. In succumbing to the urge to have SOMEONE who remotely looked like the persons they see as having wronged them, they have gone a long way towards discrediting the entire reason for their initial outrage at losing OUR rights.
@51
Very, very true. Being an idiot and a bigot truly transcends ethnicity, religion and sexual orientation. Hearts are breaking all around over Prop 8, but that doesn't excuse hatred or racist comments towards any community. We can never do anything about anything anyway. We are commodities to be traded, a market to be sold to, a demographic to be aimed for, and we're all consumers first, citizens second. The whole thing is a just a huge bummer. I'm trying to keep in mind that we won (Obama, Democratic majority), but it feels like losing.
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I find it hard to believe that anti-Proposition 8 advocates are trying to lay the passage at the feet of African Americans. Even if you accept the exit poll numbers—and I don't since the respondents didn't include one black male and the poll was nowhere near a valid sampling of the population—African Americans constitute 6% of California's population. The exit polls say 70% of African Americans voted for it. That's nowhere near the impact of the 47% of Hispanic/Latino voters who were for it or the 42% of Asian voters who favored it, both, making up much larger populations in the state, 36% and 12%. So how is that African American voters are getting more of the blame?
African Americans deserve their share. They voting for this—heavily—and they should be called on the carpet for it. They should also be ashamed of it. But responsible for the success of it?
No, and to use them as a scapegoat is reprehensible.
@ #54 joeyp,
They're are getting the blame because of trolls from Free Republic. The Freepers, for months before the election, trolled LGBT websites with the "People With Dark Skin And Foreigners Are Anti-LGBT" line. They are the reason 27% were swayed to McCain. The constantly pushed "dark skinned people are the main perpetrators of gay bashing" stories and Obama is a closet fundie. Not an hour past from the time in became clear Obama won the election and the results of Prop 8 (and 102 et al) came in they were out in force flaming with the "Stupid Faggots Got Thrown Under The Bus By The N*****s" crap. That's where Dan got the stats about black voters in California. Freeper trolls happily trumpeted 70% of blacks (like Obama) voted to take away gay civil rights, but what they didn't mention was that blacks make up a little over 4% of voters in California. If you want to point a finger as to who's fault this is, you can point it toward the lilly white Mormons in Utah who, by judging from their voter demographics, hated the Black candidate as much as they hate LGBT.
p.s. Oh, yeah, why are we just boycotting Mor(m)ons? Don't forget the Catholics and the Knights of Columbus!
NEWS HEADLINES: Gay citizens attacked by Pit Bulls. Citizens turn around and tear each other apart while Pit Bulls run down street". STOP TEARING EACH OTHER APART.
Please notice how fast the white gay oppressed minority attacked the blacl oppressed minority. The blacks didn't take away the gays right to marry. Its sad how fast the white gay community turned on the blacks, and just confirms what I imagine the black community - and the black gay community - knows all too well: the white community is not trustworthy. This should be a wake up call to the white gay community, at the least . . you're not going to be able to work to chang e the black community's homophobia until you deal with your own racism.
Many lesbians broke with the early post stonewall gay lib movement because they correctly perceived that so many of the gay males were mysogynist, and put their resources into the womens movement . . . and they still are today.
Of course pitting minoritieagainst each other shows the patriarchal cultural system is still working all too well, to keep white straight males who own property and have money empowered.
It's ridiculous and offensive to be saying or thinking that the black community cost CA gays the right to marry. Even if they did vote for 8 at higher percentage than other minorities (and I'm not buying that) they are still a very small percentage of the population. I bet if all the gay white males in LA and SF who wer too busy being hung over, or partying, or being vapid and too self-absorbed, etc., to have bothered themselves to first register and then to vote HAD registered and voted, I bet 8 would have failed.
So blaming blacks for 8 passing IS racism, and not just from some knee-jerk reaction kind of place.
Hey, gays were one of the few demographics to vote more Republican this year as compared to 2004, so apparently gays have a problem with blacks too.
Am I allowed to be angry at the religious?
Did anyone see this?
I picked the wrong day to watch morning shows, I think. I was so mad. livid.
I would like to see some study or research to explain the gender gap in these numbers. Black women were 74% yes on prop 8, but black people overall were just 70%, and yet there were many more black women included in these numbers than black men. I saw one message board where they suggested that if you do the math, black men were only 61% yes on prop 8, which is more similar to the numbers of other ethnic groups.
So is it the black community that has a problem with homophobia (if you take these numbers to be representative), or is it black women specifically?
I am very sad.
Hey Dan, how about you address the extreme racism gay people of color face from OTHER gay people. And i must say, your focus on blaming Black people for the prop 8 loss is kind of gross.
Seriously - 70% of the blacks that voted in California voted YES on 8. So... why isn't anyone protesting in front of black churches and just the mormons? Oh, they don't want to seem racist!
Blacks as a community harbor just as many prejudices as any other group. Not only do they dislike gays their hatred of Jews is well known. It makes no sense, Jews have always fought side-by-side with the blacks to oppose racism but the blacks award the Jews with contempt.
Mark my words, Obama is going to have the most anti-Israel and pro-Palestine administration in history and Israel had better prepare to go it alone.
I'm black and Jewish, idiot. Israel is one of the most racist countries on the planet. Remember how they did ancestry tests, and published the results of how Palestinians had 'black blood'? Oooh, scary. Nonetheless, I defend Jews against blacks and vice versa with no little anger against me personally as a direct result. I have also seen some of the disgusting posts about blacks on Ha'aretz in regard to Obama--entirely divorced from his politics. He appointed Rahm Emmanuel, for heaven's sake. And gave AIPAC a pre-election blow-job to boot. But believe whatever the Free Republic tells you.
Memo to all groups who are oppressed in some way:
When you work to oppress another group who is being oppressed- physically, verbally, in the voting booth- it makes you look like an insensitive jerk with no empathy. You know what it is like to be attacked because of who you are- how do you justify doing it to someone else? (And please remember that the 'they started it' excuse stops working when you're about six years old).
Dude, oppressing other people is the favorite pastime of the oppressed. It makes them feel witty and handsome.
Dan - Check yourself before you wreck yourself.
You did everything, but use that word, Dan. Don't be surprised when your peeps go all the way.