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RSS icon Comments on Prop 8 Protest Outside of LA Mormon Temple

1

For god sakes, use common sense. Don't shut down public roadways. Nothing is going to turn everyday Californians against you more than making traffic even worse.

Posted by The CHZA | November 6, 2008 3:46 PM
2

I have no idea if protests like this will work, but I still like it.

Posted by keshmeshi | November 6, 2008 3:48 PM
3

No wonder you got booted from the Wu-Tang Clan. Pussy.

Posted by David Schmader | November 6, 2008 3:49 PM
4

the day this country revokes the tax-exempt status of a single church is the day an atheist is elected president.

as in it will never fucking happen.

Posted by max solomon | November 6, 2008 3:50 PM
5

Just.

Keep.

Reporting.

And let the investigations begin!

Posted by Will in Seattle | November 6, 2008 3:53 PM
6

I have just asked the IRS to send me the FRAUD form so that I may get signatures and petition the IRS to remove the tax exempt status of these religious entities (Mormon and Catholic). I will get the form in a week or so. I will spear head this effort if others think it is worth the time and effort I shall put into it. If no one wants to get involved with me I'll still fill out the form and send it in.

Posted by Sargon Bighorn | November 6, 2008 3:54 PM
7

SLOG: link directly to their PDF complaint. With instructions. Click link, print, sign, mail.

Posted by StC | November 6, 2008 4:00 PM
8

Seriously, blocking traffic and signing Internet petitions is going to do absolutely nothing. If it makes you feel better, that's great, but don't expect anything to happen.

Posted by N | November 6, 2008 4:02 PM
9

Though it is sad that Prop 8 passed, I really don't agree with fighting this with hate by singling out a single church. I signed the online petition and now I want to take it back. Fighting hate with hate isn't cool.

I read this earlier and agree with it. http://ultramicah.blogspot.com/2008/11/rights-vs-semantics.html

Posted by Jesse | November 6, 2008 4:04 PM
10

Jesse: Expressing outrage over an attack is NOT "fighting hate with hate." And the Mormons singled themselves out.

Posted by David Schmader | November 6, 2008 4:08 PM
11

Why not? This church singled us out, and used their tithing dollars, which they require of every member, to fund a campaign of hatred and lies. This is not one little church on the street corner. This is a large, major institution with a lot of money, and they should not be acting as a lobby or a PAC and still be receiving tax breaks. Clergy can speak out on an issue without it becoming a political situation. But an organization cannot organize and fund a constitutional amendment and still be considered merely a religious institution. This is a political matter. They do not deserve tax breaks.

Posted by Shira | November 6, 2008 4:09 PM
12

Jesse, we aren't fighting hate with hate. That would be putting an intiative forward saying Mormons can't get married. The petition simply asks the IRS to enforce the law, which the Mormons broke. Churches can keep their tax exempt status if they refrain from influencing Legislation. They funded and legislation, therefore they should lose their status. Your notion is as idiotic as saying "Some guys broke in and robbed my house. I could call the police but I don't want to fight hate with hate." Come back when you grow a brain.

Posted by muckfetro | November 6, 2008 4:10 PM
13

Why not? This church singled us out, and used their tithing dollars, which they require of every member, to fund a campaign of hatred and lies. This is not one little church on the street corner. This is a large, major institution with a lot of money, and they should not be acting as a lobby or a PAC and still be receiving tax breaks. Clergy can speak out on an issue without it becoming a political situation. But an organization cannot organize and fund a constitutional amendment and still be considered merely a religious institution. This is a political matter. They do not deserve tax breaks.

That said... shutting down the 405 is NOT going to help anybody.

Posted by Shira | November 6, 2008 4:10 PM
14

I find it extraordinary that a religion that was practically founded on the tenet of "non-traditional" marriage is against expanding the definition of marriage. You would think they, of all religions, would have a little bit of understanding.

Posted by Andrew | November 6, 2008 4:14 PM
15

Remember the part where the Yes crowd told churches to tell their congregations that gays wanted to strip them of their tax-exempt status? Remember the commercials?

Now imagine what will happen with the next anti-equality measure.

"We protected marriage, and they attacked us. They reported us to the IRS. Clogged up the system with fradulent claims. And they DEMAND tolerance? Vote YES on the 'euthanize gays' act of 2010."

Posted by AJ | November 6, 2008 4:15 PM
16

stripping the mormon church of their tax exempt status wouldn't do any good since, as I understand it, the mormon church doesn't use its exemptions... my mother, a life-long mormon, proudly informed me of that fact last month.

Posted by crystina | November 6, 2008 4:25 PM
17

Crystina, your mother is full of shit.

Posted by David Schmader | November 6, 2008 4:28 PM
18

I'd like to participate in a protest and missed yesterday's. But I'd rather not protest a church, even if they did provide the funds for the proposition in the first place. All types of people voted yes on prop 8 and while the religious groups had a hand in it, the every day atheist homophobe had plenty to do with it. I want to protest the general public. Please do keep us up to date on any future rallies.

Posted by Graciela | November 6, 2008 4:30 PM
19

ha. my old junior high is right behind that bitch. i used to flip that spire off daily!

Posted by lar | November 6, 2008 4:31 PM
20

@16: Precisely. There's a reason the Yes on 8 crowd mentioned stripping churches of tax-exempt status-- they want to build a case that gay people are going to do everything the "yes" ads threatened. The self-fulfilling prophecy aspect is potentially very damaging and was part of a simple but very powerful trap.

Posted by AJ | November 6, 2008 4:31 PM
21

I've never filed a complaint with the IRS before. It was fun and easy! I recommend it to everyone. Plus, I feel as though I've earned bonus points for attacking a church.

Posted by Paul Constant | November 6, 2008 4:33 PM
22

You know what? Fuck the Mormons!

I'm so fucking fed up with trying to be nice. Trying to politely persuade. If we can't keep gay marriage in "liberal/hippie/Hollywood" California, then fuck them all. Persuasion is a lost cause. Burn that fucking church to the ground. Every last one of them. Sometimes polite persuasion is the right tactic. Sometimes only a riot in the streets will do.

Posted by Reverse Polarity | November 6, 2008 4:35 PM
23

16, they DO use their exempt status. I lived behind the Zion Curtain, in the shadow of the Salt Lake LDS temple for over 23 years and I can tell you that they certainly do use it. They have been behind every major decision the state of Utah makes since it was founded and absolutely deserve to lose the tax-exempt status. They do however, pay taxes on some of their businesses they also run, such as the Deseret News etc.

Even when it comes to policy about bars, clubs and alcohol, the church is consulted first before the DABC makes decisions. It's amazing how backwards these people can be. I hate saying it, but it's true. I grew up with half of my family Mormon and half Jewish, so I had no choice but to become agnostic.

Posted by jj | November 6, 2008 4:39 PM
24

WOW....you all would have ripped down any church anyway if prop 8 didn't pass... if someone believes in god and reads the bible of course they are not going to approve of a gay marriage, it's as simple as that....

Posted by costa mesa | November 6, 2008 4:40 PM
25

I'm a mormon and voted no on 8. Just to let you know. The church didn't use tithing money. The church members used their own money. I have left the church because I think it was dumb. Also, I'm straight.

Posted by bender | November 6, 2008 4:42 PM
26

Yay! That's more like it! Guess WeHo last night was just a warmup after all. Very very cool.

Posted by tomasyalba | November 6, 2008 4:42 PM
27

the lds church made no financial contributions to prop 8. the individual members did. so i'm pretty sure the irs will not strip a tax-exempt status of an institution that did not contribute.

Posted by kristin | November 6, 2008 4:47 PM
28

The Bigamist Cult must pay.

Posted by Balt-O-Matt | November 6, 2008 4:47 PM
29

bender--funny that you still call yourself mormon since you left the church

Posted by kristin | November 6, 2008 4:50 PM
30

@24
Are you really that fucking stupid?? There are a butt load (pun intended) of Christian denominations that approve of, and fully support gay marriage, not to mention plenty of people who personally support gay marriage even if there church does not (especially Catholics). I could list all of these faiths and major churches, but I've wasted enough time on your asinine comment.

and:
@9
The stupid blog you linked to had not only a logically flawed argument on why Prop 8 failed and the rights of human beings, it was also factually incorrect. The large influx of African American voters did contribute to the passing of Prop 8. It is a sad, distrubing fact, but it is a fact. Additionally, if this demographic of voters had been actively pushing for a NO on Prop 8 while canvasing for Obama, this horrible piece of shit amendment would have been toast.
Don't listen to the right-wing talking points. This fight is not about marriage, it's about EQUALITY.

Posted by huh? | November 6, 2008 4:51 PM
31

WWJB is a bad idea. I didn't think of What Would Jesus Ban, I thought Who Would Jesus Blow.

Posted by Mr. Poe | November 6, 2008 4:57 PM
32

Unfortunately the LDS church was within its rights to advocate a position on Prop. 8. You're not going to get anywhere on this.

Posted by Fnarf | November 6, 2008 5:00 PM
33

Kristin,

The church may not have given money, but they did call out to all their members and asked them to.

Posted by jj | November 6, 2008 5:04 PM
34

No on 8 failed from the inside out - it's not the Mormons - it's internal to the community. Hate our on 'theirs no way we can lose' campaign.

Posted by track9 | November 6, 2008 5:10 PM
35

@33, yes, and calling their members and asking them to vote a certain way on a ballot proposition is legal for 501(c)3s. Only advocating candidates is forbidden.

Posted by Fnarf | November 6, 2008 5:16 PM
36

@35,

Point taken. Although, I still think their status should be repealed due to their constant politicing from the pulpit. The minute a government takes orders from a church such as Utah does and did my whole life living there, they should absolutely lose it.

Posted by jj | November 6, 2008 5:30 PM
37

The government did not take orders from a church. California citizens who are members of the LDS church campaigned, just like the other side did, and voters chose to vote yes on 8. You lost because people voted against you. Stop protesting democracy.

Posted by Brent | November 6, 2008 5:50 PM
38

I've been in that building. The movie isn't that great, you have to wear clean garments, and someone needs to remove the plastic covers and reupholster the chairs in God's Living Room.

Posted by Spoogie | November 6, 2008 5:51 PM
39

Bigotry at its worst! Whatever happened to "NO ON H8TE"? Or do you have a double standard? Stop spreading hate and lies! The whole point of "No on Prop 8" was for love, right? So now that it's passed, you have the right hate? Where's the love now? The answer is, you were hypocrites to begin with! Speaking of lies, the LDS Church made absolutely no institutional donations to fund Prop 8. Zero. Why are you targeting the Mormons?? Why don't you target the blacks in south central LA who voted 80-20 for Prop 8. Why don't you target the vast majority of hispanics who also supported it. Or maybe the older generations who greatly helped this Proposition pass? Why don't you target the majority of men and women in CA? Targeting the Mormons is ridiculous. Throwing a tantrum is just stupid. Prop 8 passed. It's legit. Marriage is between a man and a woman. Nothing new there.

Posted by Aaron | November 6, 2008 5:58 PM
40

Stop being IDIOTS!! The Church did NOT donate any money...NONE! It was the members of the church who have donated to the cause (and in a big way), so trying to go after th church's tax exempt status is as futile as half the other ridiculous directions you are looking at taking.

Posted by David | November 6, 2008 5:59 PM
41

39 & 40: Stop being such fucking weasels. The Church ORDERED church members to donate. This is not a secret in any way or form.

That said, I trust what Fnarf said about the futility of the tax-exempt endeavor, at least in this case.

But really, fuck you, Aaron and David. History will remember your kind as bigots on par with those of the segregationist South.

Posted by David Schmader | November 6, 2008 6:08 PM
42

@40, money doesn't have anything to do with it. If the church advocated any specific CANDIDATE, they would lose their exemption, whether they donated money to him or not. The same, alas, is not true for ballot propositions -- but it is not dependent on whether they donated money or not.

Posted by Fnarf | November 6, 2008 6:11 PM
43

@ 41

ORDERED? Ha! The problem with that is that most all Mormons would gladly donate to Prop 8 without anything being said by the church... just as many conservative voters would. The members of the LDS Church were asked to raise their voices. Conservatives have often been referred to as the "silent majority". Members of the LDS faith, were asked to speak out, to counter the roar of militant anti-prop 8 bigots that now stand in front of the Mormon Temple as we speak. Once again, your hate reeks of hypocrisy.

Posted by Aaron | November 6, 2008 6:22 PM
44

Aaron: Half my family is LDS, and I've heard from several of them about the orders. But why trust me?: http://www.sltrib.com/ci_10839546

And as for those ridiculous claims that the Church gave no money to the Prop 8 battle, this is from the Salt Lake Tribune:

Campaign finance records show the Utah-based LDS Church has made its first financial contribution in support of a Nov. 4 ballot proposition that would ban same-sex marriage in California. The in-kind donation of $2,078.97 from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was made on Oct. 25 to ProtectMarriage.com, a coalition of faith organizations and conservative groups supporting Proposition 8.

Here it is in full:
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10842051

Fnarf: Does this $2000 donation change anything?

Posted by David Schmader | November 6, 2008 6:30 PM
45

@ David Schmader

Too bad you're an idiot... since when does 2,000 = 2,000,000?

Posted by Aaron | November 6, 2008 6:33 PM
46

Nice dodge. And you're right, $2000 is practically nothing.

Posted by David Schmader | November 6, 2008 6:36 PM
47

The church did not order anyone to do anything. It is interesting how you cry out for equality and tolerance yet you have neither for anyone else. Tolerance and equality go both ways. I feel sorry for you.

Posted by Beth | November 6, 2008 6:38 PM
48

@ David Schmader

I still don't understand what this argument is about? Prop 8 Passed. The focus of all your frustration is on... the mormons?? It seems like you have some unresolved disputes with your mormon family members. Don't bring this into it. You're giving the mormons too much credit. They single handedly made Prop 8 pass? This is laughable.

Posted by Aaron | November 6, 2008 6:38 PM
49

Beth: You're insane. Where have I shown intolerance for the Mormon Church, beyond objecting to their fight to deny me basic equality under the law? Fighting oppression is not the same as oppressing, you dimwit twat.

Posted by David Schmader | November 6, 2008 6:41 PM
50

@ David Schader

"Dimwit twat"? LMAO... wow... how old are you?

Posted by Aaron | November 6, 2008 6:43 PM
51

You can be gay David Schmader. Nobody is taking that right from you. I don't feel sorry for you at all though that the institution of marriage isn't expanded to include same-sexed unions. Here's kinda where I come from:

http://www.acpeds.org/?CONTEXT=art&cat=22&art=50

Let's leave the mormons out of this! The End. Peace out David.

Posted by Aaron | November 6, 2008 6:49 PM
52

@51
Your last comment proved your are a conservative ideologue, with no real grasp of the issue, and probably Mormon. I also suspect that you and these other characters echoing the same right-wing opinions in this thread are the same person.
It's easy for you to call David hysterical and childish, because you didn't just have your MARRIAGE RIPPED AWAY FROM YOU! Think about it for one second. Take your head out of your ass and actually think about how that would feel if you were in the same position.
Though I am straight, I don't think gay people should politely ask for their rights, begging at the doors of Californians like dogs looking for scraps of human rights. They should head to the streets and take their God-given rights from these bigot assholes.
History will not be kind to Mormons and the US conservatives of the early 21st Century.

Posted by huh? | November 6, 2008 7:01 PM
53

YOu guys are FUCKING IDIOTS

NUMBER ONE: Not one tithing dollar was put toward the campaign you ignorant fags!

NUMBER TWO: Lots of mormon member do not support the campaign and the church never specifically asked to vote for it, they only asked if you believe than to support it.

NUMBER THREE: Several churches and several non-religious organizations have funded Prop 8.

The truth is is that none of you fucking gays and lesbians are really gay or lesbian, your a bunch of assholes trying to get back at your parents or the boy or girl who never liked you, and it hurts you so bad that you lost because you thought that some how if you one it would be a point for you against them. Well guess what, they don't give a shit about you, your just as disgusting and unattractive as you were when you got rejected.

Get over your fucking selfs.

Posted by Dani Tremonet | November 6, 2008 7:16 PM
54

We elected a person born in Kenya that is barely a citizen, passing 8 just means we can discriminate on people via sex but not on color.

I thought that color, race, creed, religion (which makes this ironic and moronic) were things not to discriminate against... I guess we are one step forward and two steps back.

By this time next year where will we be?

Posted by Dave | November 6, 2008 7:19 PM
55

Orientation is bull as far as I'm concerned.

Male and Female. That's it. There are no real gays or lesbians. You guys are playing a game that went way too far.

Posted by Kevin Dreyfus | November 6, 2008 7:26 PM
56

the american college of pediatricians smacks suspiciously of right wing evangelism. its true title is probably 'the american college of conservative fundamentalist christian pediatricians'.

dani, you're off your meds. and you're not getting a temple recommend if you don't stop swearing.

Posted by scary tyler moore | November 6, 2008 7:29 PM
57

Did I say I was Mormon? No.

I just think it's hilarious how all you fags are giving the Mormons complete credit for defeating your misguided attempt to piss off your parents.

Let's face it. Prop 8 won, and standing outside of a temple isn't going to change anything. I can't wait 'till someone takes out the riot gear and beats all your asses senseless for being so ignorant.

Posted by dani | November 6, 2008 7:33 PM
58

To Commentor #1:

Californians are already against us. Fuck popular will. We tried, we failed. Civil rights will NEVER win that way.

And do you think we really care about their commutes?

Posted by Raphael | November 6, 2008 7:38 PM
59

To Commentor #1:

Californians are already against us. Fuck popular will. We tried, we failed. Civil rights will NEVER win that way.

And do you think we really care about their commutes?

Posted by Raphael | November 6, 2008 7:39 PM
60

Where did all these Mormon loons come from? Playing a game? Think about your own sexuality, straight Mormon kook: what kind of game would it take to get YOU to suck a dick?

David, I'm sorry, but money doesn't matter. 501(c)3s are allowed to support ballot propositions, full stop. You can be very sure that the LDS church has a ton of good lawyers on staff. This is not Verlyne's House of Bible Believers storefront church we're talking about here. They're evil, and they're afraid, but they're not stupid.

Posted by Fnarf | November 6, 2008 7:54 PM
61

The LDS church did NOT fund the proposition, MEMBERS were NOT ordered to donate anything or vote a certain way by any stretch of the imagination! Even at church Leaders asked at the most to donate TIME not money, to the cause. Protesting outside of the LDS temple is not only moronic but embarassing. The LDS church did not single-handedly get Prop 8 to pass. Any institution can donate as much as it wants to a cause, but at the end of the day it comes down to the voters, and its obvious what the outcome was. Singling out the Mormon Church will not only get you nowhere, but will be a total waste of time. Marriage is and forever will be between a man and woman, and no amount of signatures will change that. SORRY!!! YES ON 8=]]

Posted by KEYz | November 6, 2008 8:21 PM
62

The thing is - we HAVE been tolerant. You know what? I'm not really that big on god. I think it's a tool for small-minded people. BUT UP UNTIL today, I have ALWAYS defended your right to believe in that ridiculous concept.

Dani et al, the reason we're FOCUSING on the Mormon church is that because if they didn't stick their stinky noses into this, the measure would not have passed! I fucking defended mormons when that stupid book came out a couple of years ago. And mormonism is the WORST kind of religion - second only to Scientology in terms of sheer bullshit!

And don't worry about me going to hell - IT DOESN'T EXIST! It's a tool to control you!

Posted by daisy | November 6, 2008 8:40 PM
63

Good fucking god; I feel like I'm back in Salt Lake! Where the fuck did all these Mormons just come from? You people out of EVERYONE should be fighting for minority rights. Remember how in the celestial kingdom, elders, you will have multiple wives and sisters, you will have multiple sister wives? I mean come on Mormons, YOUR people escaped the mid-west after Joe Smith was murdered, and came to Utah to protect your freedoms and even to this day, although it's not an earthly practice, you're ALL still pligamists. I truly wish the worst for your religion (and most of the world always has).

Posted by jj | November 6, 2008 8:47 PM
64

Gays need to understand that they cannot just shove down people's throats something that others don't agree with because it is totally wrong. This is unfair. Not the other way around.
This is not a hate issue anyway. Gays have the same civil rights as any one else already. so what else do they expect??? It is not fair for us to have to accept inmorality and be forced to learn it or practice it as law and have our beliefs and freedom taken away from us because of your little tantrums.If they chose to be gay then they need to learn how to face the consequences it brings. They should learn to respect everyone's stand and don't go around harrasing others including the Mormon church because they aproved prop 8. Please have the decency to respect that. the polls say that the majority of voters don't agree with same sex marriage. Respect that this time around sinse you didn't respect it in 2000 and just Live with it!!!
I don't hate gays as people and neither does God. But Just like God, he loves the sinner but not the sin. He made a man and a woman to procreate and fill the earth. I yet have to see two creatures of the same sex reproduce. Even animals and insects get the point. People! I cannot believe a roach has a smarter brain than a gay person. Wow!!! unbelievable.

Posted by me :) | November 6, 2008 8:53 PM
65

@Daisy: Hell and god as a tool to control you?? haha.. I laugh at your ignorance. Your belief that God does not exist and that Religion in general is just a tool to control people is just plain Stupid. I know there are millions of people out there who dont believe in these things, but come on, how else do you explain life itself? Which brings up another point @jj and the Celestial Kingdom having multiple wives!? You sound so stupid for that one, for even thinking the LDS church would teach those things. The Celestial Kingdom as taught, is for A married MAN and WOMAN who have lived a worthy life on Earth. You cant tell me that Polygamy is included in this. And the Church had its reasons for Polygamy in the first place. During the time when men had to leave their wives and children behind to fight for the Country which didnt fight for them. The whole reasoning for polygamy was for the remainging men to care for the Women and Children who had lost their fathers/husbands. Times were tough for the Mormons and they made it this far. You can say all the bad stuff you want about it but, Statistically we are the FASTEST growing church in the WORLD! You PROGAY RIGHTS and ANTIMORMON type make me sick. Brush up on your history, cause like I said Marriage HAS BEEN, IS, and FOREVER will be between a MAN and WOMAN.

Posted by KEYz | November 6, 2008 9:08 PM
66

KEYz and "me:)" - Gee, I never thought of it that way before - I guess you're right. You both sound really smart, so I take back everything I said before.

Posted by daisy | November 6, 2008 9:31 PM
67

thanks Daisy.
I'm glad you see it!

Posted by me :) | November 6, 2008 9:45 PM
68

I respect that last comment a ton. I credit the mormon church for standing up to what they believe--namely, marriage is sacred and ordained by God between man and women. Is that not our right as Americans? If you don't believe it then that is your opportunity. What percentage of the vote was by mormons? Maybe 3% max. Throw their vote out and you still have support for prop 8. There was a Christian Coalition that was behind Yes on prop 8. Mormons are a small percentage of the Christian population and support for the ammendment.

I voted No on prop 8 but I think this free country entitles rights to vote your moral conscience. Their should not be hostility when due process takes its course. That is what makes our country the best on earth.

Peace on earth, good will toward men...

Posted by TF | November 6, 2008 9:47 PM
69

Fuck all these stupid magic daddy believers. Obama said he'd get rid of DOMA and supports civil unions. We need to have him stand by his word and we win nationally. Fuck the inbred mormons and black churchgoers and xianists.

Posted by Jersey | November 6, 2008 9:58 PM
70

@68
Well said :)

Posted by me :) | November 6, 2008 10:07 PM
71

@69
you really have an unhappy life don't you?
I feel sorry for ya :(

Posted by me :) | November 6, 2008 10:10 PM
72

How do you know when or where there will be a protest? Will there be more this weekend? Stupid question i guesss, but i'd appreciate the help

Posted by Drew | November 6, 2008 10:19 PM
73

Actually no me(#71). Obama won and I'm extremely happy about that. Your days are numbered. This was your last gasp I'm quite sure. Gay marriage begins in CT next week and soon NY will get it and it will then move down to NJ. You will lose again soon just like you did in this election :)

Posted by Jersey | November 6, 2008 10:19 PM
74

Where can I find protest info!!!!!!!!!?

Posted by Drew | November 6, 2008 10:21 PM
75

@73
Seriously I feel sorry for you.

Posted by me :) | November 6, 2008 10:25 PM
76

@74
It's worthless!

Posted by me :) | November 6, 2008 10:27 PM
77

Well, it may be worthless, but I don't think I could live with myself if I do nothing while my way of life is threatened. You know?

Posted by Drew | November 6, 2008 10:30 PM
78

Section 297.5 of the California Family Code reads:
297.5. (a) Registered domestic partners shall have the same
rights, protections, and benefits, and shall be subject to the same
responsibilities, obligations, and duties under law, whether they
derive from statutes, administrative regulations, court rules,
government policies, common law, or any other provisions or sources
of law, as are granted to and imposed upon spouses.

Please explain to me the differences in substantive rights between marriages and domestic partnerships in CA.

Posted by Bayou Vol | November 6, 2008 10:32 PM
79

Remember, Brown v. Board of Ed. was not decided the way it was because blacks and whites went to separate schools. It was decided the way it was because black schools had been proven to be UNequal to white schools in a series of cases. The separation wasn't the bad part, the substantive inequality was.

Oh, and the S.Ct. is pretty clear that psychological benefit/harm is irrelevant in establishing substantive rights.

Posted by Bayou Vol | November 6, 2008 10:35 PM
80

@78
You are so right. Gays need to stop their little tantrums.
They have the same rights already as any other person.
Gays need to understand that they cannot just shove down people's throats their ways. I Personally think they are in the wrong and they KNOW IT! they just want the marriage recognition to ease their conscience.

Posted by me :) | November 6, 2008 10:43 PM
81

MARRIAGE IS SECULAR forchrissakes.

It's NOT A CHRISTIAN INVENTION. We aren't talking about Iran here. This is America where hundreds of religions as well as agnostics and atheists exist.

Keep your God out of other people's lives. Especially those who may not believe in exactly the same thing you do.

As for marriage always being between man and woman, read your fucking history and not just your Book of Moron...erm...i. The concept of Monogamy was borrowed by early Christians from the Greeks and Romans, who, if I may add, applied the term to BOTH heterosexual and homosexual marriage. Polygamy is the Biblical version of marriage.

And who are we kidding KEYz? You're making excuses and you know it. Polygamy was not some altruistic invention for men to protect widows. It was a barbaric nomadic tradition of the Middle Eastern peoples in Biblical times because their culture viewed women as nothing but possessions. So tell me now, how come 50 year old men marry a half-dozen 17 year old girls? Is that 'widow-protecting'?

Lemme guess, you're a man. Your women have no fucking voice.

And they're right. We've been going along for years with you fucking bigots thinking God gave you the right to judge what we ourselves have not chosen. Being nice, staying silent, begging and hoping, BEGGING forgodsakes that we at least could share the same CIVIL rights. We don't even protest when churches speak against us. It's their right. The religious amongst us mourn in silence when their own church leaders tell them that the God they believed in hates them and would send them to hell when they die, when they have done nothing more than being what they are. Murderers get forgiven, rapists find Jesus, but we have to bear the judgement that our 'sin' though minor can never be forgiven nor erased. We can't stop being what we were born to be unlike religious psychos who can simply go to a confession after killing ten children for example and still gain entry to the empty promises of your heaven. A lot of us have given up religion, not because they don't believe in God, but because of the hatred against us. A hatred justified by what? Two or three passages in the Bible which when read in its entirety actually preaches LOVE and TOLERANCE? How's that for hypocrisy?

At the very least we could at least be secure that our government would be fair to us. It's fucking time we start fighting back.

Jesus was a good man. Is this what he taught you? The guy who said 'inhospitality is a far worse sin than whatever happened in Sodom and Gomorrah'? And you have the gall to call yourselves Christians?

P.S. And oh look! More stupid straight guys posting how we 'chose' to be gay! 'Rebeled' against our parents/Game that went too far/Getting back because a girl/boy ditched us long ago?

What. The. Fuck.

I knew I was gay since I was 9 years old. I love my parents and my siblings so why would I rebel against them? I had and still have no desire to be a woman, but I knew I wasn't ever attracted to them. Does that fit into your pathetic reasoning of why I am gay?

WHO THE HECK in their right mind would want to be something that has been looked down for centuries? Made fun of? Treated as diseased, filth, abominations, unnatural? Beaten up? Lynched? Denied the ability to show their love in public while having to stand the sight of straight people mooching around and taking it for granted? Murdered? Tell me, if I had a choice, would I be gay or straight?

Fuck you all. I'm sick of screaming at people who can't hear because they don't want to. This time, it'll be you who'll be screaming, jesus-freaks.

Posted by BurnChurchesBurn | November 6, 2008 10:47 PM
82

Well, most of us didn't want to be gay, it's just the way we are. We don't want to shove anything down your throat... hahaha. Just trying to live a happy psuedo normal life.

Isn't there anyone on still who went to a protest? Can you tell me if there are more or where you find out about it?

Posted by Drew | November 6, 2008 10:48 PM
83

@ "Me:)" #80
You said it right.

Posted by lulu | November 6, 2008 10:49 PM
84

Well, if the church DID use tithing money to fund Prop 8, then that is wrong. But unfortunately, it didn't. Apparently members of the Mormon church donated their own personal income to the cause, which is simply the democratic process.

I like how all of you in Seattle think it is wrong for people outside of California to get involved in CA politics. Your "call to action" seems more than just a little ironic.

Posted by Leah | November 6, 2008 10:50 PM
85

Here's the way I see it. I don't know if anything can be done about revoking prop 8 in the courts. I think the marriages that had been performed will stand but no new ones will be allowed. However, when Obama gets around to rectifying the disparity nationally, and if he only goes as far as civil unions I personally will be ok with that as long as we get exactly the same rights afforded married couples in all 1200 respects. Now here in Jersey by that time and in many other states we'll be able to call it marriage. It will only be a short matter of time until everyone will be able to call it marriage and until then just steal the word. I certainly will call my husband my husband regardless and as long as we have identical rights that's what we'll be to each other. Now how long b4 Obama takes this up is the question.

Posted by Jersey | November 6, 2008 10:53 PM
86

Civil right to marry whom you may? In less I'm mistaken I believe our state tells us we can't marry a child (we can't leagally have sex with them either). I believe we're told we can't marry our own child or siblings.........This wasn't a civil rights issue. Go to http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsc7fCgE30A for a great plug
on that. My chosen candidate didn't make it to the white house but I don't intend on throwing rocks at his house. When the news reported the proposition 8 issue on Tuesday evening they asked the Yes on 8 colition what they would do if this proposition didn't pass. The response was, "we will except the voice of the people".
Back in 2000 the voice of the people made a choice, to keep marriage as defined as between a man and a woman. In 2008 4 people decided differently for us. Now again, the voice of the people have asked to leave this definition alone. I don't see the need to change all the dictionaries in my home or to try to explain to a child that an apple isn't really an apple. Marriage is between a man and a woman and we understand what a civil union is. All rights are given to both these institutions. The people have spoken. I will support our president. I may not always agree with him but I will not do thing contrary to the law. Who's really throwing the rocks here. Oh yeah, haven't your mothers taught some of you how to speak without using cuss words or degrading speech. The art of persuasion usally doesn't include threatening, degrading words.

Posted by Kay | November 6, 2008 11:06 PM
87

@ BurnChurchesBurn #81
"I'm sick of screaming at people who can't hear because they don't want to"
yes that is exactly what I will say to you out of your own words.
Think of logic here, if you even believe in this because it seems like you are totally lost and don't even know who you are.
Wether you like it or not, truth exists just like there exists a sun and an earth. The truth shall always be the truth no matter what you or I say or may want to think.
This is what's wrong with society, people like you who lack knowledge of the truth or might know it but bend it according to your own liking for your own benefit. Among many other things, you lack knowledge of facts, truth, good vocabulary, respect... and the list goes on.
Please do something good for america if you so love it. Get educated!

Posted by lulu | November 6, 2008 11:08 PM
88

Well, the person saying they couldn't wait to see some of these "fag" protestors smacked down got their wish. Here's helicopter video of the protest:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb6POxsxUrU

At 2:46 you can see one police officer strike a gay protester hard enough to throw him head-first into a cement retaining wall before arresting him and his partner.

Posted by Dara | November 6, 2008 11:12 PM
89

@86
Kay, you couldn't have said it better.

Posted by lulu | November 6, 2008 11:13 PM
90

@86
totally agree with you kay.
My candidate didn't win and yet I respect him without being so violent.
Gays need to stop all the non sense.

Posted by me :) | November 6, 2008 11:17 PM
91

cool video
Yeah I really enjoyed watching that.
maybe they will learn respect this way.

Posted by jrT | November 6, 2008 11:26 PM
92

@88
Thanks for the video link.
That was cool.

Posted by jrT | November 6, 2008 11:29 PM
93

With our economy failing and 2 wars at hand, the biggest concern that these people have is that they can't get married? I understand that this is important to you, but can you at least have priorities?

Posted by str8grl | November 6, 2008 11:35 PM
94

For God's sake DO SHUT DOWN traffic! Take this to the streets and keep doing it everyday, especially at rush hour. These are our freedoms and civil rights we're talking about and nothing ever worth while was won by standing by quietly on the side of the road waving a banner and saying a wimpy "hey". Don't let up on the anger you feel today for one minute, keep going and while we're at it, let's take this to the conservative neighborhoods that voted "yes" on this measure. Let's march into the elitist conservative neighborhood of my racist, bigoted Aunt and Uncle in Orange and shut down their roads and block people from getting into their businesses. No, I am not advocating violence but I am advocating civil disobedience. Get out there and fight because if we don't do it, nobody else will!!!

Posted by Patrick | November 6, 2008 11:43 PM
95

@lulu

"yes that is exactly what I will say to you out of your own words.
Think of logic here, if you even believe in this because it seems like you are totally lost and don't even know who you are.
Wether you like it or not, truth exists just like there exists a sun and an earth. The truth shall always be the truth no matter what you or I say or may want to think.
This is what's wrong with society, people like you who lack knowledge of the truth or might know it but bend it according to your own liking for your own benefit. Among many other things, you lack knowledge of facts, truth, good vocabulary, respect... and the list goes on.
Please do something good for america if you so love it. Get educated!"

What makes you think, I'm as ignorant as you are, honey? It's not me who believes in a golden book sent to Earth by an angel not even mentioned in any of the scriptures of the Old/New Testament/Torah/Talmud/Quran/Apocrypha, which if I may add, hasn't even been seen by it's believers and is kept in a secret hidey-hole. Most probably because anyone who sees it will know it's a goddamned blasphemous hoax on first sight. Oh... and tell me, if you please, what the HECK is 'Reformed Egyptian'?! Any archeologist can tell you that such a language does not even exist. As well as the simple fact that Advanced Metallurgy did not exist in Precolumbian America as is purported by your 'Plates of Nephi'. Does that scream 'LIES' to you? It sure does to me.

I'm gay, which pretty much means I'm educated, highly intelligent, creative, and far more empathetic than you will ever be, because we would never survive with anything less given the hate against us.

As for 'truth', I suppose you refer to the Book or Moroni? Or is it the Bible? Or it may be the Quran? Possibly the Vedas?

These are all touted as 'truth'? How would I know which is which? How would YOU know, oh enlightened one?

As for saying comparing it to the Sun and Earth, get a grip. Tell me again, which religions have condemned and excommunicated thinkers in the past because of discoveries that contradict the Bible? Galileo ring a bell? Copernicus? Darwin? Flat-earth, creationism, time-cube, Young Earth, Geocentric universe model, American Indians as being the long lost tribe from israel? ALL of which has been proven wrong with repeatable, transparent methods. Tell me who still believes in them again?

Tell me again, with more convincing arguments please, on who is bending the truth? Tell me who is blind?

I have respected people's beliefs. I have Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Taoist, Jewish, etc. friends and never have I spoken out against the inconsistencies I see in their scriptures. Yet when have you people ever respected us?

What have we even done to you to deserve this?

Don't give me bullshit about molestation, because pedophilia is not homosexuality, and lord knows it targets children of both genders and I too loath them with all of my heart.

Don't give me that bullshit about the sanctity of marriage when sexagenarian mormons can marry girls barely out of their adolescence and 63% of American children grow up with only one parent. We aren't to blame for your marriage woes.

You treat us like subhumans and you expect us not to cuss at you? FUCK YOU.

Posted by BurnChurchesBurn | November 6, 2008 11:48 PM
96

@Patrick Simmons
Civil right to marry whom you may? In less I'm mistaken I believe our state tells us we can't marry a child (we can't leagally have sex with them either). I believe we're told we can't marry our own child or siblings.........This wasn't a civil rights issue. Go to http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=Bsc7fCgE30A for a great plug
on that. My chosen candidate didn't make it to the white house but I don't intend on throwing rocks at his house. When the news reported the proposition 8 issue on Tuesday evening they asked the Yes on 8 colition what they would do if this proposition didn't pass. The response was, "we will except the voice of the people".
Back in 2000 the voice of the people made a choice, to keep marriage as defined as between a man and a woman. In 2008 4 people decided differently for us. Now again, the voice of the people have asked to leave this definition alone. I don't see the need to change all the dictionaries in my home or to try to explain to a child that an apple isn't really an apple. Marriage is between a man and a woman and we understand what a civil union is. All rights are given to both these institutions. The people have spoken. I will support our president. I may not always agree with him but I will not do thing contrary to the law. Who's really throwing the rocks here. The art of persuasion usally doesn't include threatening and invading people's rights.

You are speaking selfishly. Nobody deserves thier roads blocked just because of your little tantrums.

Posted by kay | November 6, 2008 11:51 PM
97

@Kay
Nobody said anything about marrying children or siblings, nor did I ever say go throw rocks at people, in fact it is being reported that the Yes on 8 people are the ones throwing things at the No on 8 protestors. But while you bring up marrying children, funny that the Mormon Church advocates not only bigamy, but the marriage of underage girls to men as well...yeah, that's "normal". What's more, Prop H8 is illegal because the state constitution was set up to protect the rights of all minorities from the will of the majority which is why your precious Prop H8 will more then likely be overturned. In other words, a slim majority of voters cannot vote to take away the civil rights of a singled out group of minorities without the state legislation agreeing to put it on the ballot first. Therefore, Prop H8 was illegally submitted to the people of California and will be overturned.

Posted by Patrick | November 7, 2008 12:03 AM
98

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha....
Prop 8 passed and you can't do anything about it!!!!!! ha ha
and my laughter goes on....
your efforts are wothless and it's funny to see hahaha.....

Posted by kay | November 7, 2008 12:08 AM
99

by the way why do you bring up mormons into it anyway? What does that have to do with anything I said? you crack me up!

Posted by kay | November 7, 2008 12:11 AM
100

@kay

I can burn churches. I can burn your homes. How's that sound?

Let's get this hate ball rolling then.

Posted by BurnChurchesBurn | November 7, 2008 12:14 AM
101

@100
You can do what ever you want but guess what?
Pro 8 passed!!
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
I'm laughing at you too!

Posted by kay | November 7, 2008 12:19 AM
102

Section 501(c)(3) describes corporations, and any community chest, fund, or foundation, organized and operated exclusively for religious, charitable, scientific, testing for public safety, literacy, or educational purposes, or to foster national or international amateur sports competition (but only if no part of its activities involve the provision of athletic facilities or equipment), or for the prevention of cruelty to children or animals, no part of the net earnings of which inures to the benefit of any private shareholder or individual, no substantial part of the activities of which is carrying on propaganda, or otherwise attempting, to influence legislation (except as otherwise provided in section (h)), and which does not participate in, or intervene in (including the publishing or distribution of statements), any political campaign on behalf of (or in opposition to) any candidate for public office.

From IRS Publication 1828 Page 5,
Substantial Lobbying Activity
In general, no organization, including a church, may qualify for IRC section 501(c)(3) status if a substantial part of its activities is attempting to influence legislation (commonly known as lobbying). An IRC section 501(c)(3) organization may engage in some lobbying, but too much lobbying activity risks loss of tax-exempt status.

You'll pay.

Posted by BurnChurchesBurn | November 7, 2008 12:24 AM
103

@Kay
Wow, hahahahahahahahaha is all you have? Gee, uh, guess you told me. Yeah, sure told me. Tell us Kay, have you even ever kissed a man? And I don't mean your father or those awkward, extra long kisses from your weird Uncle George. You spend your time making childish remarks at me when it is so obvious that you are angry that you never had the guts to go into a gay bar and hook up with another woman. Look Kay, nothing is sadder then a bitter closet case who turns on her own, so don't get me wrong, I feel sorry for you...I really do, Don't worry Kay, we'll keep fighting for you and for all of us and someday, when you are ready, we'll all be here to welcome you into the family. But do come out of that closet soon, dear, the air is so much sweeter out here under the fearless sun of freedom.

Posted by Patrick | November 7, 2008 12:25 AM
104

@kay

You're starting to sound like the fat old hag that you are. :) See ya soon, then. Bacon, mmm.

Posted by BurnChurchesBurn | November 7, 2008 12:28 AM
105

oh, @1 and @8 - if you'd ever been to Salt Lake City, you'd know that very little traffic goes along there, and there are about four major entrances to The Temple District, with the big ones BEHIND the complex and not blocked.

P.S. they have a light rail right next to where the pic is.

Posted by Will in Seattle | November 7, 2008 12:58 AM
106

In case this slipped past anyone (I see that Scary Tyler More caught a whiff), Aaron @51 cited a page outlining the position statement of the American College of Physicians (ACP) on same-sex parenting.

At a glance, the ACP's site, though strangely evocative of Focus on the Family, might seem like a resource for expert pediatric advice -- advice of the sort one might get from a different organization, the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), which was founded almost 80 years ago with a mission to attain optimal physical, mental, and social health and well-being for all infants, children, adolescents, and young adults. That assumption would be incorrect.

In fact, the group Aaron referenced -- ACP -- was formed in 2002 by a group of socially-conservative bigots who preferred not to face the science behind several of AAP's reality-based positions. Everything about them, from their position statements down to their Google Sitemap, makes their focus clear, and that focus is not pediatrics and the well-being of children.

Citing the ACP about same-sex parenting is like citing the ACLJ (Pat Robertson's American Center for Law & Justice, now headed by Chief Counsel Jay Sekulow) about the separation of church and state. Both of those organizations' credibility exists almost entirely as figments of Christian fundamentalists' imaginations.

Here's kinda where AAP and the rest of the reality-based world comes from, Aaron:

"Studies have shown that children with gay and/or lesbian parents are ultimately just as happy with themselves and their own gender as are their friends with heterosexual parents. Children whose parents are homosexual show no difference in their choice of friends, activities, or interests compared to children whose parents are heterosexual. As adults, their career choices and lifestyles are similar to those of children raised by heterosexual parents."

Aaron, the greatest threat our nation faces is the influence of religious zealots like yourself. Fuck off.

Posted by Phil M | November 7, 2008 1:01 AM
107

oh, and @44 for the win, which since I was in Salt Lake City and heard them talking PUBLICLY about funding it, I'm surprised Fnarf hasn't learned that the Internet is Wide and Deep - and not everything is on Wikipedia.

(my sis lives there so I got to learn even more while we were being tourists in the city she lives in the suburbs of)

Posted by Will in Seattle | November 7, 2008 1:04 AM
108

Too much hate.


Look, I'm sure Prop 8 fans can lovingly defend why gay marriage is wrong, but they're on the losing side of this argument long-term. That excites me. Go look at the age splits on Prop 8 again and rejoice that in another generation love and commitment will win out. Small comfort now, but -- it thrills me to see the shift coming. =\


I was grieving yesterday, though. I made sure to put 'Freedom to Marry' as one of the charities I'll be donating to from here on out.

Posted by zachd | November 7, 2008 1:55 AM
109

Personally, I have no problem with somebody being gay. I don't necessarily agree with that sort of lifestyle, but I have no problem with it as long as their not parading their way of life in front of me. Growing up it has been around me and I have tolerated it ....because homosexuality exists!! I have had many gay friends and have worked with people who were gay. Most were very nice people and very funny too!

But it isn't about that.

I really don't like it how the gay community is now trying to impose their way of life on me & my kids by trying to change traditional marriage laws. They have domestic parter benefits and
rights already. It bothers me that they are pushing their lifestyle on the world & trying to get me & others to make changes to a belief system that I have had since the beginning of time. The world has tolerated them. It isn't about tolerance anymore....it is about the gay community wanting their way & they will do anything to break up people's values and beliefs and it will all be considered discrimination if we don't agree with them.....and that is crazy.

It doesn't matter what anybody says. The gay community doesn't seem to care about anyone elses views except their own and their own agenda. It is about getting their way. They will not except that the majority of voters don't share their views.

It is sad that the gay community has to attack the people who belong to the Mormon church, when there are other religious groups that supported Prop 8 & other groups of supporters besides just the Mormons. Plus, all the Mormons I have known are very nice people. Even if you don't understand their religion or believe in God for that matter, it isn't wrong for people to stand up for what they think is right. Just like the gay community taking a stand for what they believe is right. Everyone has a right to freedom of expression/ speech.

Also, if the State of California's Supreme Court thought Prop 8 was unconstitutional to begin with, then they wouldn't have put it on the ballot. The 4 judges who overturned Prop 22 could have voted to not put Prop 8 on the ballot. Obviously the people of California have voiced their opinion twice now & the majority of voters don't want gay marriage in their state. Whether others disagree with that or not, that is what has been decided by the people & it should remain valid. For the 18,000 same- sex marriages that have already taken place, it is something that should have never happened in the first place, but what is done is done, and it was considered legal at the time thanks to those 4 judges and should remain so. We shouldn't take something back that was given to these people who were married. So I guess they should consider themselves lucky & quit building lawsuits.

In the OC Register today an article claims that "Prop 8 removes a protected constitutional right --here the right to marry- not from all Californians, but just from one group of us". Hmmm ...what about protecting traditional marriage- something that has been enacted in the constitution from the beginning of time. What about our rights to protect marriage? Protecting a sacred thing that was intended by God when he created man and woman (Adam & Eve) to multiply & replenish the Earth. To have children and a family lead by a man & woman has been the creator's plan from the beginning. I don't think there is anything unconstitutional in believing that & in doing what is right. I believe that was the purpose of marriage that God intended and obviously the majority of Californians feel the same.

If same sex couples claims are considered about this issue then why wouldn't it be fair to say that anybody who loves one another can get married. Where do the American people draw the line? or do they allow anything to happen? Do we let the whole world become one big Jerry Springer episode. Brother & half sister marriages, Mother & son marriages, Grandma & granddaughtert etc... What's next?
The definition of marriage can be challenged by many groups, who wish certain laws were made to accomodate what sort of lifestyle they would like to live, but it is not considered valid or lawful either. The majority vote does count & the people have spoken. This is where we live & we should have a say in what we believe is right and what is good for our children. We need to leave some good values & morals somewhere in the world for future generations.
Doesn't the people's vote mean something? It is obviously important enough to make the ballot again after the first decision was overturned. If the judges allowed it to be placed on the ballot then the YES ruling should stand & same-sex marriage should no longer be legal.

It is nothing meant to lash out at the gay community...just a difference of opinion, that many other people share as well. You can't change people's values & beliefs and you have to realize that not everyone will agree on everything in this world. It is best to just be civil to people, even if you have different views. We have to agree that most of us will disagree with certain things that our thrown our way during our lifetime but hopefully we can learn to handle our disagreements in a loving fashion.

Hopefully everyone can show kindness to one another. Lashing out and attacking one another doesn't solve problems.

Posted by chiquita banana | November 7, 2008 2:28 AM
110

@chiquita banana

Yes. I agree.

Also Blacks shouldn't marry whites. It's nothing personal, it's just that they shouldn't impose their views on us. They have their own urinals, their own buses, their own restaurants. They have everything we have already. Why would they want to force themselves into establishments where they are not welcome? Like all-white restaurants?

You can't change people's values and belief's, because blacks were never mentioned in the Bible, and slavery is a God-given right. We have made the small concession of freeing them. Why should they expect more?

It's not that I hate Blacks. I have plenty of black friends. I just don't want my daughter to marry one. Or have to sit next to them while I eat. This are my core traditional values. And I don't like it when they start to push their own agenda into our lives.

Don't get me wrong, I love blacks, but I hate their skin color. If blacks and white people can marry what next? Female priests? Dogs marrying cats?

Because it's in the Bible. Jesus said it... somewhere. I'm not really sure, but blacks marrying whites is a perversion of nature. You don't see lions mating with tigers, or do you? Adam and Eve were both white, and so should all married couples be too. Obviously, Darwin, Buddha, Ahura Mazda, Brahma, Amaterasu, etc. lied, so the fact that they don't even belong to our religion, does not matter because this is a Christian Country were only Christians are allowed to live and make laws and have babies and live happy lives.

To those blacks who married white people already under legal circumstances, you should consider yourselves very lucky, because you were given a rare gift that is normally only given to us very lucky White Anglo-Saxon Protestant people. If I had a choice though, I'd rather you leave each other. NOW.

I'm sure we can resolve this in a loving fashion and with kindness as I say to my black friend, get out of this restaurant please or no you can't marry my daughter no matter how much you love her and how much she loves you, you are not welcome here, but we're still friends right?

(Does that sound familiar to you? When you speak of love and kindness, please mean it. There is no love in denying something that you yourself have full access to as a full citizen to people you claim to 'love because they were very nice people and very funny too'!

As for gays only being concerned about their own agenda, please read about Bayard Rustin. He was gay and like Martin Luther King fought for equality. He is all but forgotten now because he was erased in most black people's memories because of his homosexuality. Yet he did as much if not more than MLK and Malcolm X in advocating freedom and equality. His legacy remains with us.

A lot of gays are very active in animal rights issues, environmental issues, racism issues, domestic violence issues, help fight political corruption, and even serve the military in silence (even if they can be stripped of everything if found out to be gay). Heck, we even involve ourselves in reconciling heterosexual relationships for nothing in return.

How can you accuse us of being self-centered then? We have done nothing against you and your children. We have certainly helped you in a lot of causes. And this is how we are repaid? Shoved down deep back into the closet like unwanted baggage? I hope Jesus forgives you.)

Posted by HateIsHate | November 7, 2008 3:09 AM
111

Can someone please tell me where Jesus ever said anything against homosexuality?

The term you use about us, 'Sodomites' is incorrect, since the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not homosexuality but pride, gluttony, sloth, greed, and failure to help the poor as is said in Ezekiel 14:19.

The main clear passage that people base this hate upon is from Leviticus. One among several passages which contain ridiculous laws which aren't anymore followed today, like forbidding the wearing of clothes of different material, forbidding crippled and or otherwise imperfect people from entering temples/churches, forbidding the eating of shellfish, not sleeping in the same bed with a menstruating woman, giving the punishment of death to premarital sex offenders and adulterers, etc.

This book in the Bible was written by PRIESTS, not by Jesus or his disciples. This was later used by other books written by CLERGY.

And guess what. What kind of people did Jesus despise the most?

With which people did he express his only instances of anger?

Not with Magdalene, not with the tax collector, not even with Judas.

The only time Jesus ever expressed rage was with CLERGY. Recounted in two instances when he drove the moneychangers out of the temple who were there because the temple priests were corrupt and were demanding heinous amounts of money and livestock for sacrifices in the temple.

And again with the Pharisees with whom he stated something which might apply to you.

Matt 15:14 "They are blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind leads the blind, both will fall into a ditch."

Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

Do not bring Jesus' name into your hatred. The hatred is all yours and yours alone. Read your Bible again and maybe you will get the real message. Every time you judge someone else for something that doesn't harm anybody but is simply a part of his soul, you are denying someone passage to Him. Every time you twist words to suit your purpose you deny someone passage to Him.

That is the far greater sin than mere love between people of the same gender.

Posted by TheFollyOfMenInGodlyClothes | November 7, 2008 3:30 AM
112

@ HateIsHate

I'm sorry you feel like the people who disagree with your views are against you.

One great part about being an American is having the right to vote. Everyone is entitled to their own views but the majority vote wins. I'm sorry that you aren't happy enough to have all the same benefits & rights that married people have already, with the exception of the title that is something sacred to those who believe in traditional values.

I'm sorry you have to attack me with your black/white & animal analogies to try to get your hateful feelings out.

I'm sorry that my expression of hopes that we can show love & kindness to one another mean nothing to you. To be civil to someone doesn't mean that you have to agree with them either. Jesus loves everyone. Good luck to you!

Posted by chiquita banana | November 7, 2008 3:37 AM
113

"Because of the New Testament's frequent depictions of Pharisees as self-righteous rule-followers, the word "pharisee" (and its derivatives: "pharisaical", etc.) has changed in meaning and has come into semi-common usage in English to describe a hypocritical and arrogant person who places the letter of the law above its spirit. Jews today (who subscribe to Pharisaic Judaism) typically find this insulting if not anti-Semitic.

An important binary in the New Testament is the opposition between law and love. Accordingly, the New Testament presents the Pharisees as obsessed with man-made rules (especially concerning purity) whereas Jesus is more concerned with God’s love; the Pharisees scorn sinners whereas Jesus seeks them out."

Food for thought for those who confuse men's laws with God's primary message: Love

Posted by TheFollyOfMenInGodlyClothes | November 7, 2008 3:39 AM
114

@chiquita

I can't help but imagine a fake plastic smile on your face as you wish me love and kindness.

You compared gay marriage with grandmothers marrying granddaughters and yet you condemn my comparison with black/white and animal marriage and call it hateful.

I said exactly the same things you said, if you haven't noticed. And I can't help but note that you conveniently fall back to the legalities when I have engaged you in your own turf - that concerning morality and values.

As people have already stated earlier, marriage is not a Christian invention, so why do you pretend it is yours and yours to protect alone? What makes you think that marriage between two guys or two women are less sacred than heterosexual marriages?

Has Canada been struck down by God's hammer? Has Spain? Sweden? Belgium? Are they now devolving into hedonistic immoral countries?

Do you think by allowing gay marriage it would somehow poison heterosexual unions? Do we have magical powers then?

We don't meddle into who you can marry, so why would you even care who we marry?

If the majority always wins, it's not a democracy, it's a Mobocracy. Where the minority voice are always silenced because they don't have the numbers needed.

Canada recognized this concerning it's own marriage laws. It's ironic given that America dares call itself the Land of the Free when it has been and always been a land of oppression. From Slavery to racism and now to homophobia and religions meddling with politics.

God bless America.

Posted by HateIsHate | November 7, 2008 3:55 AM
115

@chiquita

"It bothers me that they are pushing their lifestyle on the world & trying to get me & others to make changes to a belief system that I have had since the beginning of time. The world has tolerated them. It isn't about tolerance anymore....it is about the gay community wanting their way & they will do anything to break up people's values and beliefs and it will all be considered discrimination if we don't agree with them.....and that is crazy."

Also since when have we been tolerated?

We are the butt of jokes. Laughed at, pushed around, branded as weaklings, perverts, depicted as shallow and self-serving women's sidekicks in films. Parents disown us, some of us never even get to see our nephews and nieces because of the misconception that gays are pedophiles or the crazy idea that gayness is contagious, we lose friends when we come out, we struggle with depression because everyone hates us. Suicide rates among gay teens are the highest because they are bullied at school, and no one ever helps.

Those of us who survive our teens are those who have learned to ignore the taunts, the jeers, the discrimination, the laughter and keep our emotions to ourselves. Most have abandoned religion because your God never listens. Did you know for instance, that throughout my high school years I had only ONE prayer I repeated every night?

It was 'Please God, don't let me be gay.'

I had already started to realize my attraction with the same sex then and the lack of it with the opposite sex. Did He ever listen? If He did, we'd all be much happier now with no hatred levied against us. If He did, we wouldn't have to ask you to understand how it isn't a 'lifestyle' that we chose, which none of you will believe anyway, no matter how illogical it is for anyone to want to be gay.

Now you know why our holiday which isn't even official, is called 'The Day of Silence'.

Oh and not to mention, beaten, tortured, killed, and hanged like Matthew Shepard, Gwen Araujo, or those 17 year old boys in Iran.

Please count the number of times 'fags' has been used by the supposedly Godly people who commented here.

We have been silent for far too long I think. If there's one thing we have, it's courage. This time I'm also not staying silent for your kind of people to push around.

Posted by HateIsHate | November 7, 2008 4:28 AM
116

Hate is a sad thing to see and unfortunately, it is coming from both sides of this issue. No one, gay, straight, or Mormon should be made afraid for their safety or well-being because of their beliefs. No one should be bullied or fired from a job because they are gay. No one should be antagonized, yelled at or spit on because they are Mormon. This ballot measure passed because the majority of Californians voted for it. The majority of Californians do not support gay marriage. Bigotry and intolerance comes from both sides, and sadly more and more it seems to be coming from members of the gay community.

Posted by John | November 7, 2008 5:50 AM
117

John: 'Bigotry and intolerance comes from both sides, and sadly more and more it seems to be coming from members of the gay community.'

What did you expect? Us to sit meekly in the corner and accept being bullied and discriminated against? All the while parents tell kids it's okay to do that even though God still loves us because we are faggots, poofs, fairies, pansies, dandies, perverts, sinners, destined for eternal hellfire, abominations, spawn of satan, unnatural, wicked, evil, worse than terrorists?

Do you really think we can swallow all that hatred without so much as a peep? We have been fighting for rights since about a hundred years ago. Peacefully at first, much like what we are doing now. The Mattachine Society and the Daughters of Bilitis for example. Did that make a difference? Only after the Stonewall Riots in 1969 did we start to make a difference. And now we're back to being peaceful, what happened?

It seems with the bigots, nothing can be solved without violence. My heart has grown very bitter over the years of fighting for this. A lot of my friends died of AIDS in the 80's, and no one cared because it was a 'faggot disease'. I have been victim of violence yet been unable to report it because cops wouldn't give a damn if some drag queen got beaten up by the sons of God-fearing bigwigs. I have seen the adopted kid of Lesbian friends of mine being taunted in school because she was the daughter of dykes, does the school care? My parents hated me, and they refused to talk to me even on their deathbeds. Do you know how it feels like to have your Mom tell you that something is evil about you? That you are wrong in every sense of the word and then throw you out of the house?

Gay teens are FOUR times more likely to commit suicide than a straight teen, God knows I thought of it just to escape the hell of a life God gave me. Then it started getting better, as more people learned what we really are from us and not from the Bible or their churches.

And then what happens? We are accused of being intolerant. We are accused of bashing the Christians. We are accused of having an secret 'agenda' when all we want is to be left alone. We the victims are now styled as the oppressors to get the sympathy of the people.

I hope to God some of your children turn out gay or lesbian just so you'd know what it feels like. We had always been outcasts both here on Earth and in your Heaven. What do we have to lose by giving back the hate we've received from the moment we started to love?

Posted by fallen62 | November 7, 2008 6:19 AM
118

Matt 23:13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; for you neither go in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in."

This is beautiful, #111, God is with us.

Posted by gaychristian | November 7, 2008 6:31 AM
119

Yes, I do. I never said I was straight.

Posted by John | November 7, 2008 6:32 AM
120

In 1964 blacks and whites couldn't marry each other either. How would the vote have turned out in the deep South if they allowed those people to vote on it. Our rights were snatched away from us and the movement was funded by a group of people that were just marrying 12 year girls just a few years ago.

A majority should not be able vote away the rights of a minority, that is why we will continue to fight! No more Mr. Nice Gay!

We have had peaceful protests long enough!

Mike Wilson
Highland, Ca.

Posted by Mike Wilson | November 7, 2008 7:31 AM
121

We all have a right to our own opinions and beliefs.

We can obviously say we are in disagreement on this issue. And we all have a right to our feelings on this matter.

This is something that is important to you, just as it is important to me.

I'm so sorry for all the comments made above about people who have struggled being gay. I'm sorry that you have felt inferior and that your families haven't shown love to you. That is something that happens in many cases in the world and of course it is unfortunate. I'm sorry you have faced these hardships.

If you want to protest...you have that right, just as we do, but to lash out verbally & physically against the supporters of Prop 8 is very hateful. Most of Prop 8 supporters have protested their rights in a civil manner throughout this campaign and the gay community should do the same. Although I'm sorry to see that some of the supporters have said some hateful things on this blog, that is something that only each individual can control. I hope the verbal abuse can stop from both sides.

We need to stop the bashing back & forth and realize we aren't going to agree on this issue. Both sides have a right to stand up for what they believe in & do what they feel is right for them. We just all need to do it with mutual respect for one's difference of opinion and fight the battle where it belongs----in the courts--- & not lashing out against each other.

To gather together & stand outside the Mormon temple in opposition to the ruling that was made against same-sex marriages is not being civil. They aren't the only ones who supported Prop 8. Other religious groups supported it too.

Standing up for yourself shouldn't be about pointing fingers at those who don't agree with you. Take your argument to the right people if you want to protest. That is how to let your voice be heard & make a difference.

I hope we can all respect one another and agree to disagree.

Posted by chiquita banana | November 7, 2008 8:57 AM
122

We cannont single out one group. There is an estimated 770,000 Mormons in California. I can bet half of them don't attend or give a crap about the church. 5,300,000+ voted Yes on 8. Who are the other 4,600,000+ that voted? We look idiotic focusing on a very small group. They are the one group that doesn't preach "hate the gays," unlike the Evangelicals in this country.

Now we see these protests with idiots who are trying to speak for us, spreading more hate and lies about those who oppose us. It's so transparent, we feed into the stereo types that we have been labeled with.

By the vote count the gap is narrowing. We need to stay strong, be productive, caring citizens and people will see us as we truely are...our time will come.

Posted by Sue | November 7, 2008 9:08 AM
123

@121: "This is something that is important to you, just as it is important to me."

The thing is chiquita banana, this is OUR life. And we're being denied the right to MARRY our loved ones. Civil unions are NOT equal to marriage.

Secondly, as the saying goes, "if you are against gay marriage - DON'T HAVE ONE!" It's honestly that simple. This isn't your business. We're not trying to marry children *unlike* the Mormon church. We're simply trying to live out life without prejudice.

Contrary to what you think, there ARE many churches out there who would happily marry gay couples.

WHY IS THIS ANY OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS?

Posted by daisy | November 7, 2008 9:23 AM
124

Chiquita Banana wrote:

Although I'm sorry to see that some of the supporters have said some hateful things on this blog, that is something that only each individual can control. I hope the verbal abuse can stop from both sides.

Are you kidding? Sometimes verbal abuse is warranted. People have had enough this time. One side has been verbally abusing the other forever and when the the other finally says what needs to be said to the motherfuckers who have been shitting on them for generations -- when they are finally pushed over the edge because their neighbors got together and amended the state constitution to shit on them some more, then you think it's time to stop the verbal abuse? Give me a fucking break!

We need to stop the bashing back & forth and realize we aren't going to agree on this issue.

Sure, we have no choice but to do so -- bigots don't tend to change their opinions, so the best we can do is hope for them to keep it quiet until the prevalence of their opinion dwindles due to attrition. But there's no need for us to remain silent about your bigotry until you people and your bigotted beliefs die off.

Both sides have a right to stand up for what they believe in & do what they feel is right for them. We just all need to do it with mutual respect for one's difference of opinion and fight the battle where it belongs----in the courts--- & not lashing out against each other.

I hate to be so crass and seemingly-immature, but shut the fuck up. Everyone, including criminals, psychopaths, and bigots, may have the right to stand up for what he believes in, but everyone does not have the right to do whatever he feels is right for him, and your opinion -- that the relationship of two adults is inherently less deserving of others' respect simply because those two adults are of the same sex -- does not deserve a bit of respect.

Slavemasters and cross-burners had a right to their opinions, but mutual respect of the sort you suggest now was not warranted then, and the belief that things would eventually be settled in the legal system as you suggest that they will be now was no reason for people who believed in equality then to sit by quietly and idly, agreeing to disagree as if the opinions of the bigots of the day were on equal footing with their own. Lashing out was a reasonable and likely-necessary response then and it's a reasonable and likely-necessary response now.

Posted by Phil M | November 7, 2008 9:40 AM
125

This is all really sad...Is this the type of world we r living in? i thought that after tuesday all this contention would be over...This is jus a start of a long hateful battle between two opposing views...why start a war within our own country/state. No matter how much we fight, protest, campaign...all of the waste of money and waste of time will be for nothing...people will always believe wat they believe...we jus have to learn to love and accept people for who they are and what they do...whether they are Mormons/ Catholics who believe in traditional marriage as sacred according to God or if they are Gay/Lesbian couples who believe in love and that marriage should be for both affiliations...All this fighting is only gonna make our country/state divided instead of united...and a divided state/country is weak and vulnerable...think about that...If i knew this was gonna happen i would have moved out of the country!

Posted by SheryLynn Tuimaualuga | November 7, 2008 9:42 AM
126

This is all really sad...Is this the type of world we r living in? i thought that after tuesday all this contention would be over...This is jus a start of a long hateful battle between two opposing views...why start a war within our own country/state. No matter how much we fight, protest, campaign...all of the waste of money and waste of time will be for nothing...people will always believe wat they believe...we jus have to learn to love and accept people for who they are and what they do...whether they are Mormons/ Catholics who believe in traditional marriage as sacred according to God or if they are Gay/Lesbian couples who believe in love and that marriage should be for both affiliations...All this fighting is only gonna make our country/state divided instead of united...and a divided state/country is weak and vulnerable...think about that...If i knew this was gonna happen i would have moved out of the country!

Posted by SheryLynn Tuimaualuga | November 7, 2008 9:42 AM
127

@ daisy

I'm sorry to see that you have decided to not be respectful to those who don't agree with your views.

I'm also sorry that you feel it is necessary to continue the verbal bashing.

I hope one day you realize that not everyone will think alike but that they can be mature and show respect to one another- even if their views are different.

Posted by chiquita banana | November 7, 2008 9:44 AM
128

Since when are there Samoans allowed in the Mormon Church?
Oh, thats right, when they need Brawny, easy to control subjects.
Those Mormon church officials sure are smart!

Posted by Brian | November 7, 2008 9:46 AM
129

why are you hating on samoans? where the hell did that come from? Samoans are one of the most loving groups of people i have ever encountered.

Posted by why? | November 7, 2008 9:49 AM
130

I just re-read my comment - how am I verbally bashing you? I asked why you think this is ANY OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS?

That's not bashing you.

To those that say, "Let's have an intelligent discussion about this..." Let me ask you, what would it take for you to change your mind on this? God coming down from on high and blessing us? Short of that, I don't think there will ever be a reasonable discourse over this because your right to marry the person you love isn't being denied to you.

YOU HAVE ZERO STAKE IN THIS! THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS!

Posted by daisy | November 7, 2008 9:52 AM
131

SheryLynn Tuimaualuga wrote:

This is all really sad...

Most of it is.

Is this the type of world we r living in?

The polls in California suggest that it is.

This is jus a start of a long hateful battle between two opposing views

Wrong. It's been waging for a long time. Passing Proposition 8 was just a surge.

No matter how much we fight, protest, campaign...all of the waste of money and waste of time will be for nothing...people will always believe wat they believe

That's very likely true. We don't generally jail people for their beliefs, no matter how bad those beliefs are, but fighting to ensure that those people don't weave their bigoted beliefs into the fabric of our government -- and taking offense when they do so by amending the damned constitution of California -- is not a waste of time or money.

we jus have to learn to love and accept people for who they are and what they do

In some cases, yes, we just have to do that. But would you be saying the same thing if the context of this discussion was a belief in child rape vs. a belief that child rape is wrong and should not be tolerated? Would you scream "intolerance from the supposedly-tolerant!" in that case? What if the context was many Mormons' belief just a few decades ago in traditional marriage -- in that case meaning 50-year-old men marrying multiple young girls -- was sacred according to their fucking mythological deity? Would you say that we should learn to love and accept all those people abusing children simply because they felt their behavior was justified by their special fucking book?

If i knew this was gonna happen i would have moved out of the country!

It's not too late.

Posted by Phil M | November 7, 2008 10:02 AM
132

The LDS Church in no way condones polygamy as has been mentioned multiple times here. Any member found practicing polygamy is without question excommunicated from the church. There are many fundamentalist churches that have split off from the LDS church, some of which do practice polygamy. They should not be confused. Polygamy was practiced for a brief period by a minority of members of the LDS church in the 1800's (not a few decades ago).

Posted by John | November 7, 2008 10:17 AM
133

Shituiqa Bandanna, I really hope you're just trolling and that I should ignore you, but I suspect that you are not and that I should not.

I'm sorry to see that you have decided to not be respectful to those who don't agree with your views.

I think you misunderstand the situation, Chity. Between the lines, I read that you think Daisy expressed disrespect to others because they disagree with her. I suspect that Daisy expressed disrespect not because of the disagreement, but because of the cruel and hateful ideas (wrapped in a sickly-sweet smiley blanket of Christian fundamentalist "let's all stop fighting and love each other now that we've stomped you into the dirt" blanket) that are being expressed.

That some of us disagree with those ideas is beside the point. I don't give two shits about the fact that we disagree. I'm concerned that you are succeeding in spreading your hateful ideas.

I hope one day you realize that not everyone will think alike but that they can be mature and show respect to one another- even if their views are different.

I realize that some people are liars, cheats, and bigots, but while we certainly can be mature about the situation, those people deserve no respect for their views. I hope one day the children of those who passed Proposition 8 will wonder why their parents held the views they hold.

Posted by Phil M | November 7, 2008 10:20 AM
134

Thanks, John, for clearing that up.

Many individual Mormons undoubtedly are good people. Mormons as a whole are not the monsters that some here may have made them out to be.

Mormons as a whole just produce at a higher rate than other religions spinoff-religions with people who believe in the sanctity of forcing groups of young girls to marry old men. Mormons as a whole finance amendments to state constitutions to deny equal treatment under the law. The LDS church stated that their people:

needed to "follow the prophet" on this issue. If we had raised our right arms and sustained the prophet in the last General Conference, we needed to obey him now, by voting in the way he has directed, by paying as much money as possible to the cause of Prop. 8 (church leaders are giving many Mormons assessments to donate specific large amounts), and by knocking on doors and encouraging people in our neighborhoods to vote for Prop. 8. (The church has instructed us to donate to an organization called Protectmarriage.com.)

Yeah, we should really lay off the Mormons.

Posted by Phil M | November 7, 2008 10:38 AM
135

People really need to stop drinking Hater-ade

R E S P E C T

Look it up in the dictionary. Because apparently none of you have voiced any of it, so I guess you don't know what it means.

I feel sorry for you that you are so filled with anger. I realize now that the comments of this nature are going to continue on here no matter how kind people try to be. I won't be apart of this stupid verbal game that obviously you feel you have to justify.

I wish all of you the best & however this all turns out in the bitter end, I hope all of you can look back on your actions & words & feel good about it. Because swearing & disrespect for others will ultimately get you nowhere!!

Peace OUT

Posted by chiquita banana | November 7, 2008 10:42 AM
136

When did democracy come to mean that the majority gets to determine the rights of a minority? Answer: It doesn't. If that were the case, every minority -- including Mormons -- would be in bad shape. Some things, like equality under the law, shouldn't be subject to popularity contests.

Posted by Jeff | November 7, 2008 10:50 AM
137

@135, "I realize now that the comments of this nature are going to continue on here no matter how kind people try to be."

SERIOUSLY? You honestly think you're being "kind"? Or that we're looking for your "kindness"? We're DEMANDING equality!

You're a crazy asshole.

Posted by daisy | November 7, 2008 11:14 AM
138

The Mormon church did not use its own money or tithing towards prop 8. Do your research. The members of the church used THEIR own money.

52% of voters voted "yes" to prop 8. 52% of Californians are NOT Mormon. It's ridiculous the Mormon church is getting the blame when the majority of yes voters have nothing to do with that religion.

Posted by Sonya | November 7, 2008 11:52 AM
139

This is not an issue of politics or 'culture wars.'

This is not a time to 'agree to disagree.'

This is a matter of civil rights and horrible injustice.

This is discrimination, plain and simple. And the fight against it will go on until equal rights are attained for all.

Posted by Explorer | November 7, 2008 12:12 PM
140

First of all Shira, you dont know how the mormons use thier tithing money because it is used on only very spicific things, NOT including anything to do with politics. They have other sorces than tithing. Secondly, all you who express your selves by cussing, it just shows your inability to intelegently communicate. If you want people to take you seriously, try not to act like an eightteen year old. Thirdly, in a democracy, the majority rules, like it or not. If you dont, go visit North Koria.

Posted by a mormon | November 7, 2008 12:45 PM
141

Sonya wrote:

The Mormon church did not use its own money or tithing towards prop 8. Do your research. The members of the church used THEIR own money.

I did some research. Reportedly, the church did use some of its own money to fund Prop 8, and also ordered its members to do the same.

On October 29, 2008, Associated Press reported ("LDS Church donates to back Proposition 8"):

Campaign finance records show the Utah-based LDS Church has made its first financial contribution in support of a Nov. 4 ballot proposition that would ban same-sex marriage in California.

The in-kind donation of $2,078.97 from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was made on Oct. 25 to ProtectMarriage.com, a coalition of faith organizations and conservative groups supporting Proposition 8.

The measure would overturn the California Supreme Court ruling that legalized gay marriage.

Jeff Flint, a co-manager of the ProtectMarriage campaign, says the LDS Church made the in-kind donation to cover the travel expenses of several Utah-based church leaders who went to California for a meeting last week.

On October 30, 2008, Todd Compton of The Salt Lake Tribune wrote:

Recently a member of our LDS stake presidency spoke in our sacrament meeting in favor of Proposition 8, which would change the California Constitution so that homosexuals are banned from participating in marriage.

He did not explain how the church views homosexuals or why same-sex marriage was bad; instead, he simply stated that we needed to "follow the prophet" on this issue. If we had raised our right arms and sustained the prophet in the last General Conference, we needed to obey him now, by voting in the way he has directed, by paying as much money as possible to the cause of Prop. 8 (church leaders are giving many Mormons assessments to donate specific large amounts), and by knocking on doors and encouraging people in our neighborhoods to vote for Prop. 8.(The church has instructed us to donate to an organization called Protectmarriage.com.)

On November 6, 2008, Carrie A. Moore of Deseret News wrote:

Gay marriage is once again banned in California after the nation's most hotly contested citizen referendum ended in victory for Proposition 8 supporters, backed by major fundraising and grass-roots organizing by members of the LDS Church.

Elder L. Whitney Clayton, a member of the church's Presidency of the Seventy who helped lead the church's support for Proposition 8, told reporters during a press conference Wednesday that he doesn't have a total for how much money was donated by Latter-day Saints. He did say it was "considerable and generous" and that church leaders are "grateful for the sacrifice" made by members who participated in the campaign.

He said the church, as an institution, did not contribute directly but did pay for hotel and travel expenses for him and other leaders who participated in the effort.

Posted by Phil M | November 7, 2008 1:20 PM
142

Just one last comment. Who ever came on in my name last night after I posted, that's not nice. Just use your own name. I wrote once at #86. The person that followed me continued with some thoughts that were not mine. P.S @Patrick- Check you Mormon History 101, any Mormon found to be a polygomist or marrying a child would be from a break off branch of the LDS church, which they do not recognize or they are excommunicated or they are doing something illigal (which then the law should take over). I don't think we'll find any polygomist hiding in the temple. If any kay writes after this it will not be me, whoever me is. God Bless! Choa! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1GRQGc5GQ0

Posted by kay | November 7, 2008 1:24 PM
143

A Mormon wrote:

all you who express your selves by cussing, it just shows your inability to intelegently communicate.

Sometimes adults use adult words to express extreme frustration -- such as that which they might experience when a church orders its people to donate to an out-of-state campaign to amend that state's constitution to restrict the rights of many of that state's residents based solely on the genders of the people they choose to spend their lives with. If words like "fuck" hurt your dainty ears, maybe you should butt out.

in a democracy, the majority rules, like it or not. If you dont, go visit North Koria.

And as has been mentioned here repeatedly today, we have some protections against the tyranny of the majority. If you don't like it, go live as a slave in pre-emancipation United States.

If you want people to take you seriously, try not to act like an eightteen year old.

If you want people to take you seriously, use a spell-checker, get over your obsession with homosexuality, and quit being such an ass-hat.

Posted by Phil M | November 7, 2008 1:34 PM
144

70% of Blacks who voted for Obama also voted Yes on Prop 8.

Is it so easy to forget?

BAYARD RUSTIN fought for your rights. He was OPENLY GAY and BLACK.

Is this how you repay what he did? A people oppressed should realize how it feels to be oppressed, not turn around and do it again on the next minority that comes under them.

I am not, by any means, pointing fingers at Blacks, just as I am not pointing fingers at Mormons (though they deserve it). They were not the only ones who voted. Blacks need to recognize their legacy. A gay man helped to free you once, not minding the ridicule he got from his own race. He was called a house n*gger f*ggot, and yet did that sway him? Did that cause him to abandon you? He fought against Malcolm X's plan of total separation and violence (search Youtube for their famous debate). He helped Martin Luther King with his campaign, he even influenced King on his Gandhi-an politics of nonviolence. And if I'm not mistaken, the Bus Boycott of Selma to Montgomery was HIS idea. Even Coretta King recognized this and also fought for GLBT rights.

And suddenly, we are the enemy. We are the nancy boys ruining the image of the gangstas. I'm Black and I'm Gay and I'm proud of my legacy. Why did the rest of you forget?

Posted by damnitall | November 7, 2008 1:37 PM
145

#140
First of all a mormon, it's spelled Intelligent, not intelegent.

It's spelled Specific not specific.

It's spelled Sources not sorces.

It's spelled Eighteen not eightten.

It's spelled North Korea not North Koria.

Are you trying to 'intelegently communicate' perhaps? Because you are failing miserably, my dear.

And in North Koria, China, and Russia, the majority actually rules. Look at their minorities. Tibet for instance or the Uighur in China. The Jews, the Siberians, the Chechnyans, the Kazakhs, etc. in Russia. The scholars and educated people in North Korea. The Jews, Gypsies, and GAYS in Nazi Germany.

Were they democracies then?

Let me define what Democracy really means:

"Even though there is no universally accepted definition of 'democracy', there are two principles that any definition of democracy includes. The first principle is that all members of the society have equal access to power and the second that all members enjoy universally recognized freedoms and liberties."

Where does it mention that Majority rules?! eh? Are you really American or a Nazi in disguise?

Posted by not a mormon | November 7, 2008 1:47 PM
146

Furthermore, to stop ignorant comments about MAJORITY RULES

"There are several varieties of democracy some of which provide better representation and more freedoms for their citizens than others. However, if any democracy is not carefully legislated to avoid an uneven distribution of political power with balances such as the separation of powers, then a branch of the system of rule is able to accumulate power in a way that is harmful to democracy itself. The "majority rule" is often described as a characteristic feature of democracy, but without responsible government it is possible for the rights of a minority to be abused by the "tyranny of the majority". An essential process in representative democracies are competitive elections, that are fair both substantively and procedurally. Furthermore, freedom of political expression, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are essential so that citizens are informed and able to vote in their personal interests."

Suck on that. Go live in Iran if you want a theocracy.

Posted by notamormon | November 7, 2008 1:52 PM
147

Furthermore, to stop ignorant comments about MAJORITY RULES

"There are several varieties of democracy some of which provide better representation and more freedoms for their citizens than others. However, if any democracy is not carefully legislated to avoid an uneven distribution of political power with balances such as the separation of powers, then a branch of the system of rule is able to accumulate power in a way that is harmful to democracy itself. The "majority rule" is often described as a characteristic feature of democracy, but without responsible government it is possible for the rights of a minority to be abused by the "tyranny of the majority". An essential process in representative democracies are competitive elections, that are fair both substantively and procedurally. Furthermore, freedom of political expression, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are essential so that citizens are informed and able to vote in their personal interests."

Suck on that. Go live in Iran if you want a theocracy.

Posted by notamormon | November 7, 2008 1:57 PM
148

Furthermore, to stop ignorant comments about MAJORITY RULES

"There are several varieties of democracy some of which provide better representation and more freedoms for their citizens than others. However, if any democracy is not carefully legislated to avoid an uneven distribution of political power with balances such as the separation of powers, then a branch of the system of rule is able to accumulate power in a way that is harmful to democracy itself. The "majority rule" is often described as a characteristic feature of democracy, but without responsible government it is possible for the rights of a minority to be abused by the "tyranny of the majority". An essential process in representative democracies are competitive elections, that are fair both substantively and procedurally. Furthermore, freedom of political expression, freedom of speech and freedom of the press are essential so that citizens are informed and able to vote in their personal interests."

Suck on that. Go live in Iran if you want a theocracy.

Posted by notamormon | November 7, 2008 1:59 PM
149

I am being serious when I ask this. I am trying to be sympathetic and HEAR the other side. What is it that you are really wanting? Do you want marriage the ceremony or marriage the piece of paper? If it's the piece of paper you want I can understand why you are still going at this but if you all you are wanting is to be able to have a ceremony, proving your commitment to eachother, you can do this without changing laws. Many people, in hetero-sexual relationships, see no need to be married by law or God. They remain content in their "common law" marriages. All the reasons you have stated a need to be able to marry your partner have been covered through other laws that give you those rights. From where I stand it doesn't seem like you are doing this for rights, it seems you are doing this to smear what many Americans consider sacred. They have tried to appease you and give you what you want, short of changing the meaning of marriage. But it seems you want all or nothing.

This is what many Americans are scared of. You say this doesn't affect anybody else but it will if you insist on changing what marriage is. Once legislature says that gay marriage isn't different than a marriage between a man and a woman they will teach it as part of acceptance and diversity at school. Now I don't mind my child knowing about gay people and what it means to be gay but I don't need a teacher or anybody else teaching them that it is okay. As my child's parent that is my right to raise him/her the way I am morally obligated. I should be able to say when and how my child learns about these things. And when I do I will teach them that while I don't believe that lifestyle to be morally correct we should still love them. And don't tell me that this won't happen because it already has. The education system says that we can't talk about God but they have no problem telling my son/daughter what is right and wrong in their eyes.

But really, please, help me to hear you. I want to listen. I want to understand. Is there any compromise? Can both sides find a way to be satisfied. I support your right to choose how you want to live. I don't think you should have to hide yourselves if this is the life you feel is right, as much as I disagree. But how does a piece of paper make your relationship better? I don't think it does. It doesn't do anything for any marriage but say they are married under the law and by law EVERYBODY must recognize that marriage as valid. To me that means I have to accept that what you are doing is right, even though my beliefs say it is wrong. Is this not what it is saying?

Posted by Mandy | November 7, 2008 4:14 PM
150

Yes let's start investigating churches Across America.

We may find out, heaven forbid, that black churches donated for the Obama campaign.
Are you going to sue them? No of course not that's ok in a hypocrite's mind.

Do you know how totally Fascist this is? Yes I'm being serious. You are acting like Nazis.

You are saying that a person who is a member of a church can NOT have an OPINION on a law or donate money to a cause/law because they would have the FEAR that fascists pretending to be liberals would THREATEN their church and will sue their church into not having tax-emept status. You guys are being what you hate. Totally bigoted against people that believe in a God.

I support Gay and Lesbian, etc Equal rights but this is not right.

The ends DO NOT justify the means you guys.

Be patient. People WILL have a change of heart. People WILL come around on gay marriage. It is uncalled for to use these fascist tactics just cause you didnt get what you want right this minute. Stop acting like 5 year olds. Look yourself in the mirror in your rage and hate over this you will see you have become what you hate.

And hey why aren't you guys protesting black churches?
70% of blacks voted for Prop 8. They are the ones that made it pass. But no it is safer to attack white people, you cowards.
Or is it you realize that if you did attack them, everyone would see how bigoted you are toward church goers just cause they happen to have different viewpoints than you.

Posted by dave | November 7, 2008 7:08 PM
151

The Hypocrites that is religion, Mormons have defined it. According to their own Church Doctrines -

We do not believe it just to amingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.
(Doctrine and Covenants 134:9)x

Posted by marcus0263 | November 7, 2008 8:58 PM
152

Date: Saturday,November 8, 2008
Time: 6:00pm - 9:00pm
Location: Sunset Junction
Street: Corner of Sunset Blvd.
and Santa Monic​a Blvd
City/Town: Los Angeles,CA / West Hollywood


All progressive people who stand for equality and against discrimination should come out this Saturday in Los Angeles to protest the passage of California's Proposition 8.
The well-funded right-wing campaign of bigotry is trying suppress the rights of millions of Americans. We can't let this happen! Everyone should have the right to marry. The civil rights movement of the 21st Century and it's allies won same-sex marriage rights and only a militant movement will ultimately prevail.
Gay or straight, documented or undocumented; Black, Latino, Asian, Arab or white— Prop. 8 is a slap in the face of equality for everyone. Let's unite and fight back! An injury to one is an injury to all!

Come join us if you're in town

Posted by Drew | November 7, 2008 9:16 PM
153

Marcus,

so because you think mormons are being hypocrites its okay for you and these guys to be hypocrites?

Its still wrong doesn't matter. The mormons are NOT the issue. Don't you get it? And no I'm not a mormon either. And there you go with your bigotry. I was right. Its hate on people that follow a religion. It's not even about gay rights anymore.

You proved my point when you said "The Hypocrites that is religion"

You are a fascist posing as a liberal for Freedom and equality, when you just want to get one over on a religion. Liberalism is a good thing when its actually about freedom and liberalism. This isn't. This attack on a group of people, the mormons, is childish at best, ILLIBERAL at worst.

Posted by dave | November 7, 2008 9:40 PM
154

Mandy wrote:

I am trying to be sympathetic and HEAR the other side.

You started out without revealing which "side" you see yourself on, but it soon became evident. I'm not sure which side you would put me on, but aside from a desire to be close to people of the opposite sex for reasons that are absolutely unknown to me, I'm pretty sure that I'm on the other side.

I want to preface all of this with two ideas: 1) I don't intend to be combative with this comment as I have in others today, because I believe you are being sincere and that you are sincerely misguided, and 2) I'm not concerned at all with what any church does or believes about marriage as long as it doesn't restrict what others can do about marriage. I think people who believe what churches are selling are a little bit crazy -- just a bit crazier than those people who believe for sure that there is no god. I think taking a stance on any of it is nuts, as there's no way for us to know one way or the other. On this topic, I'm concerned almost entirely with how the state treats the thing we call marriage and how other people treat each other with regards to marriage.

So remember: in your church, do whatever you want for all I care -- charm snakes, worship trees, or talk about a cosmic zombie who was his own father, rib woman and fruit of a magical tree, blah, blah, blah. When I talk about "marriage" I'm not talking about your nutty mythology, I'm talking about the real world.

No offense.

Well, some offense, but not much.

What is it that you are really wanting? Do you want marriage the ceremony or marriage the piece of paper?

I want equal rights for adult couples with equal relationships. Mine and my partner's heterosexual relationship deserves no more respect than those of our homosexual friends, those of our heterosexual friends, or those of any other consenting adults. While I feel that it's not my place to judge the degree to which another couple is deserving of the rights and responsibilities of marriage, I feel very strongly that it is not the place of my government or your church to judge those relationships.

If it's the piece of paper you want I can understand why you are still going at this but if you all you are wanting is to be able to have a ceremony, proving your commitment to each other, you can do this without changing laws.

First of all, if you think that this conflict arises from people who don't realize that they can have the same ceremony that publicly proclaims their commitment to each other, even calling it a marriage if they want, you're (likely unknowingly) insulting most of those involved. To put it bluntly, no shit.

Second, if you want to understand this, please forget the paper and the ceremony and think about two other things: rights and respect. I suspect that most same-sex couples are much less concerned with the marriage certificate and the marriage ceremony than they are with the rights that are afforded to married couples by the state, and to a lesser degree, with the respect that those couples receive from society by way of simply being married.

I'll get to the rights later (it's clear that you, like many well-intentioned but religiously-indoctrinated people, are overlooking them), but when it comes to respect, just consider how black people felt when they were told, "look, we've given you your own restrooms, your own water fountains, your own schools, and your own seats on the bus just like white people get, so what more do you want?" You and many people seem to hold the attitude that a "civil union", even if it provided all the same rights that a marriage does would be something more than a "lesser marriage".

What if all the civil union stuff we hear about was instead called "lesser marriage"? You seem to think that it is the same as marriage (besides the obvious hetero vs. homo thing), but it is not, and it will never be. "Civil union" mostly means "lesser marriage" now, except that it hasn't even reached the point at which it provides the same rights, much less the the same respect. Even if it provided the same rights, the fact that it has its own name enforces the idea that it's just not the same. In practice, "separate but equal" is rarely equal.

Many people, in hetero-sexual relationships, see no need to be married by law or God.

Yep. I'm living proof of that, and I'm no anomaly. I don't need a state stamp of approval for my relationship, and the existence of god is a figment of your imagination, but not mine, so the second part doesn't even make sense to me.

They remain content in their "common law" marriages.

You enclosed common law in quotes, so I think maybe you know this, but there is no such thing in Washington State (I would be common law married now if there was). You know what the difference is? For one, if my partner or I ends up in the hospital, neither has automatic visitation rights the way a married couple does. Sure, we could arrange for it with a bunch of legal paperwork, and sure we could arrange for it by just going down the courthouse and getting a marriage certificate, but other adult couples who are every bit as committed as we are don't have that option.

All the reasons you have stated a need to be able to marry your partner have been covered through other laws that give you those rights.

Really? I don't think so. Not yet, anyway.

From where I stand it doesn't seem like you are doing this for rights, it seems you are doing this to smear what many Americans consider sacred.

That's very presumptuous of you. Remember that people's opinions of what is sacred are very arbitrary. Honestly, I don't care if you consider a special rock on your mantle to be sacred. The whole sacred thing is between you and your fellow believers in whatever you believe. The state should not care about what you consider sacred, other than to say, "fine, we won't let others stop you from believing any nonsense you want to believe."

[Your desire to have all or nothing, regardless of our attempts to appease you] is what many Americans are scared of. You say this doesn't affect anybody else but it will if you insist on changing what marriage is.

I know you don't see it this way, but you are trying to change it; we're not. Many of us wrongly believed for long time that all the people who fit what we think married couples should be were straight, but we were wrong. Now that we know all the "man and wife" language used by default was based on flawed assumptions, you want to change the definition of marriage. Think about it: of all the things that make a relationship worthy of marriage, of what significance is the gender of each of the couple? Reproductive ability? Shall we ban the infertile from marriage? Masculine and feminine role models for children? Shall we ban people who are not sufficiently masculine or feminine from marriage? What is it?

I feel pretty strongly about this, but I'll admit that I could be wrong. If so, and if we really are the ones trying to change the what "marriage" means, then just what is it that you think would change for you? Really, I want to understand. How could what you see as a redefinition of marriage change your life or the lives of those you care about? Are you afraid that straight people -- maybe your children -- will be confused and end up in a same-sex marriage because we call it "marriage" instead of "civil union"?

Once [our] legislature says that gay marriage isn't different than a marriage between a man and a woman [schools] will teach it as part of acceptance and diversity at school. Now I don't mind my child knowing about gay people and what it means to be gay but I don't need a teacher or anybody else teaching them that it is okay.

Ah. So there's the heart of the problem. Some people are attracted to people of the same sex, and you want to be able to explain that to your children at the same time you tell them that it is unacceptable. You're afraid that if we don't restrict marriage to your kind of marriage, the next thing you know, you won't be able to pass your bigotry on to your children.

Please compare yourself to a parent thinking that schools shouldn't teach about interracial relationships because they want to reserve the opportunity to tell their kids that such relationships are unacceptable.

As my child's parent that is my right to raise him/her the way I am morally obligated.

Sure... to an extent. If you felt obligated to raise your children in certain ways, the rest of us might step in and make you stop abusing them. But mostly, we'll let you fill their heads with whatever nonsense you like.

I should be able to say when and how my child learns about these things.

Are you able to do this now? Do schools refrain from describing family units until they receive notification from parents that children have been exposed to the idea at home? Think about it -- are schools now not imparting a particular view of marriage on children? I suspect that they're doing so, but that what they impart happens to fit your viewpoint, so you ignore it. Do you really want to change the legal definition of marriage to specify heterosexuality just so schools can only teach children what you think marriage should look like?

And when I do I will teach them that while I don't believe that lifestyle to be morally correct we should still love them.

Well there you go. Maybe this is all wasted on you. Lifestyle? Who are you, Jerry Fallwell? At what point will you tell your children that a lifestyle involving bumping nasties with the opposite sex is the only morally correct lifestyle?

And don't tell me that this won't happen because it already has. The education system says that we can't talk about God but they have no problem telling my son/daughter what is right and wrong in their eyes.

I haven't been involved with any educational system for many years, but I really hope that they only discuss gods in the scope of the study of various religious mythology, because regardless of how much you may believe that it is reality, from an educational standpoint, the existence of one or more gods is entirely theoretical.

I support your right to choose how you want to live.

Hey, thanks! That's really gracious of you! Even assuming that you actually meant, "I support your right to live however you choose," that's really nice of you. Many people in your position support neither people's right to choose how they want to live or people's right to choose how they actually do live.

I don't think you should have to hide yourselves if this is the life you feel is right, as much as I disagree.

It's really great that you don't think people should have to hide themselves if you and they disagree about what you think is right. You're a saint.

But how does a piece of paper make your relationship better?

That's subjective, of course, but the list might start with things like:

  • hospital visitation rights
  • child custody rights
  • end-of-life decisions, inheritance, etc.
  • joint federal income taxes
  • not having to testify against each other in court
It doesn't do anything for any marriage but say they are married under the law and by law EVERYBODY must recognize that marriage as valid. To me that means I have to accept that what you are doing is right, even though my beliefs say it is wrong. Is this not what it is saying?

It wouldn't mean that you have to accept anything as right or wrong. It would mean that the state has to treat the relationships of all adult couples who want to be married as equal. You could go on treating some people or relationships as better than others, and you could still teach your kids the same crap, but we wouldn't be forced to help you.

You shouldn't get to write discrimination into any state constitution.

Posted by Phil M | November 7, 2008 10:16 PM
155

At Mandy:

But really, please, help me to hear you. I want to listen. I want to understand. Is there any compromise? Can both sides find a way to be satisfied. I support your right to choose how you want to live. I don't think you should have to hide yourselves if this is the life you feel is right, as much as I disagree. But how does a piece of paper make your relationship better? I don't think it does. It doesn't do anything for any marriage but say they are married under the law and by law EVERYBODY must recognize that marriage as valid. To me that means I have to accept that what you are doing is right, even though my beliefs say it is wrong. Is this not what it is saying?

I admit, at first I wasn't among those who supported the pushing for Gay Marriage laws because I thought we already had Domestic partnership laws anyway. But I underestimated the power of symbolism. We know we are married, yet why are we not allowed to call it as such? What would we tell our kids, that it's because we are sinners in the eyes of other people and hence unfit for the term or recognition in the eyes of the law and God? How would we even expect to try and have a family life with that kind of discrimination already against the its foundations? How would we expect to be able to protect our own children from being traumatized by their schoolmates and friends on how they are the son of sinners who are not even recognized by law?

And then there's the fact that even if you think they are the same, THEY ARE NOT. That surprise you? For more info please read this: http://www.yffn.org/admin/spi/marriagevsunion.html

If you think people can remain content to not be married by law or God and remain content in their "common law" marriages. Why not abolish it altogether in LAW?

Let's call it Civil Unions and let the individuals decide if they want to call it Marriage or not. As it is, marriage is part of law, and if you define it as sacred, and therefore holy to certain religions, then it shouldn't be part of law at all. No matter how much you would like it to be, America is not a Christian nation. It's a nation founded on diversity, a nation of Christians, dozens of other religions, atheists, and agnostics. If one group has the right to impose one of its sacred ceremonies as part of law, what happens then to the separation of the Church and the State?

'Separate but Equal' was also how America tried to deal with the Black issue not too many decades ago (And South Africa's Apartheid system). They were given the same facilities, the same institutions, the same rights, but were still segregated. Now tell me, were the blacks content with what they have or did they fight until they gained full equality?

A law has to be secular in order for it to serve a nation that is by all means and purposes, of different belief systems. That is why we are astounded at how you think you have the right to deny us marriage when it doesn't even affect you. Should you also start demanding that Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, and other religions call their own marriage ceremonies something other than 'marriage'?

As for you being worried about it being taught as okay in schools, would you rather it be taught as evil and let the hate continue then? The Homophobic bullying we experienced growing up that left deep scars in most of us were the results of parents teaching children that it's okay to hate us since we are sinners in the eyes of God.

If that is how you view it, why do you not also demand that Schools stop teaching children that Islam is okay, or Buddhism is okay, and thousands of other religions and belief systems that constitute the American people? Are not other religions also considered sinners by Christians?

No one will be forcing your kid to change his religion/beliefs. Most importantly no one will be forcing you kid to be homosexual, because believe it or not, it is NOT a choice and is not contagious.

The only reason why they would be taught in schools is to stop the Hate. The same way Christian children are taught about Islam, or White children are taught about other races so they can learn how to live with their differences and not make fun of those who are different. A behavior that later manifests in adulthood as the worst incidents of gaybashing. They were taught it was okay to hate gays in childhood, why should they change their views on adulthood?

What are you so afraid of?

Are you afraid that people will stop bashing us? Or are you afraid that your child might suddenly get the wild idea to be gay just for the heck of it?

You as parents teach your children it's okay to hate us and forbid schools from teaching them about tolerance for all religions, all races, all orientations, every single different thing in another human being. Those schools won't be teaching you kid advanced courses on homosexual sex, they would only be teaching your kid about being more respectful to his/her fellow human beings. What could possibly be wrong with that?

I remember that YouTube video with the overdramatic presentation with parents crying and all, and all because of what? A SIMPLE PICTURE on a book showing how some families can have two dads or two moms and that those children shouldn't be made fun of because of their parents. They were being hysterical about something as innocent as that, and you think we can ever believe that you guys want a sort of reconciliation?

As for that video's message, I can only deduce that those parents wanted the opposite. They want the book to feature children with two dads and two moms as being the children of freaks and should be jeered at and driven out of school.

You keep saying you're fighting for your children. Well guess what? We're fighting for ours too, and the millions of gay children with straight parents who once again will grow up to a life of total rejection by the society he/she grew up in?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OvYoQiT8YE

Let me quote one Prop 8 supporter's comment on that video:

Last week kindergartners at Faith Ringgold School in Hayward, CA, were asked to sign pledge cards saying they would not use anti-LGBT language.

Parents who felt their children were far too young for such a discussion, most at an average age of 5 who are just learning the basics of reading and writing, were not permitted to opt-out, but instead had to keep their children home.

What is LGBT? Lesbian Gay Bisexual Transgender

A 5 year old needs to understand bisexuality? NOT

VOTE YES on 8!!!

The parent in question basically just told us that she wants her children to call us names and this is why she is voting YES on prop 8.

That is the reason we call it Proposition H8. Because no matter how you disguise it as 'Preserving Marriage', 'Protecting Kids', etc. It is in reality a plea to keep the status quo, of us being second-class citizens and the lowest form of human beings so they can gain leverage with teaching their kids that we are being punished by God, when all along it is you people punishing us.

Is that how you want to reach a compromise?

At dave:

Be patient. People WILL have a change of heart. People WILL come around on gay marriage. It is uncalled for to use these fascist tactics just cause you didnt get what you want right this minute. Stop acting like 5 year olds. Look yourself in the mirror in your rage and hate over this you will see you have become what you hate.

How much longer? When we are once again back to being voiceless? And why would you call it fascist? We are the minority. The fascists are those who arrogantly call the shots from up high because they got all the power.They stifled our voice over and over and over and over... in case you didn't notice, we have been VERY patient regarding this issue. Very few of us fought back then, even when the religious were blaming us for the series of Apocalypse target dates which never happened anyway, when the US once again reneged on its promise and instated the DADT policy in the Army, when the McCarthy witch-hunts included us unfairly, when the government played blind and deaf when millions of us were dying of AIDS, when companies could fire you simply because you were gay et cetera. Even when violence was committed against us, the assassination of Harvey Milk for example, or the thousands of hate crimes that happen each year with hundreds of them fatal, our only commemoration of that wasn't violence or rallies and calls for revenge but simply the appropriately named Day of Silence.

And now you're telling us we're 'acting like 5 year olds'?

People have said it again and again, and I support this sentiment. We have waited, we have been peaceful, we have been silent, with this result. No more mister nice gay.

Posted by Sakura | November 7, 2008 10:17 PM
156

At dave

Its hate on people that follow a religion. It's not even about gay rights anymore.

So easy to see it that way, right? Let me guess, you're not gay. You can't imagine the betrayal most of us went through when we realized that the religions we grew up in wouldn't even recognize that we did not choose to be this way.

How would we not when all they ever did TO US was to hate?

Notwithstanding, there are plenty of religious gay people (though most have converted to the friendlier protestant churches like UUC, or eastern religions), do we also hate them too?

Mormons have a long history of being the most vocal opponents of gay rights. And it was the most vocal in passing prop 8 too, they may not have the numbers for the votes, but they had the Jesus and the financial power that somehow convinced a lot of other religious people that Gay Rights is evil. You understand why there is so much bad blood between GLBT groups and Mormons now?

Posted by Sakura | November 7, 2008 10:30 PM
157

Dave -

I'm saying the Mormon Church are Hypocrites Dave and yes I was raised Mormon Dave. I suggest your read a little history of the LDS Church and you'll find out how totally hypocritical they are with this. So Dave I also suggest you read the definition of Bigot and Fascist before making such an ignorant statement ;)

Posted by marcus0263 | November 7, 2008 11:45 PM
158

I think all of the people that are upset with the mormans should also take a look at AT&T being as they also spent 100,000.00 to get people to vote yes on 8. So maybe everyone should also ban together and follow me in cancelling their cable, internet and cell phone service. If we all ban together we can put a real dent in AT&T if not topple them all together. DONT HELP SUPPORT BIGGOTS, BOYCOTT AT&T

Posted by forrest in san diego | November 8, 2008 12:04 AM
159

What needs to happen this needs to be resolved at the national level. IMO it's a clear violation of the 1st and 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. Until it's escalated and resolved nationally these bigoted laws and State Constitution Amendments will continue.

Posted by Pagan | November 8, 2008 12:16 AM
160

I personally am not against gays in any way. I think they have the right to live their lives their own way. But that doesn't mean I think they should be married. I feel that they can have civil marriages. But marriage is between a man and a woman. I think they have the right to go against that and try to get laws passed. But for now as was proven more people in the U.S. feel the same way I do. If there is a time that people all feel differently then I would be ok with it and let it go. But going against and protesting one church is not right, it's being a bully and just trying to scare them. All that is going to come out of this is someone getting killed.

Posted by Patrick | November 8, 2008 7:36 AM
161

It is amazing to me when people immediately bring up the issue "if gays were to be married, then what? Marry animals? Children? Siblings?" I'm not personally aware of a human rights group advocating these activities. This isn't the bestiality movement, or the incest movement. It's the gay rights movement. It's been growing stronger ever since the Stonewall riots in the '60s. We will continue growing strong and eventually we will live in peace with the same inalienable rights to live, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that every American has.

Did you realize that Gays pay taxes too? Yes, that's right. We pay taxes. The same taxes that help everyone. The same taxes that keep the machine of government churning. The same government that was used to strip us of our rights last week. Not to worry though. We lost this round. We shall overcome. This is not over.

Posted by mrclmind | November 8, 2008 7:49 AM
162

The big elephant in the room here is the fact that the No on 8 campaign was one of the most poorly run campaigns in modern history. I had big arguments with them about how things were being run and they turned a deaf ear to me and many other people with political experience and chose to do things their own way. The main reason for our defeat was the campaign. It was really bad.

Posted by mrclmind | November 8, 2008 8:00 AM
163

@ Patrick -

Why do you think Gay's shouldn't enjoy the same rights and benefits of marriage as a Man and a Woman? The fact is pro "Prop 8" people are basing this on their religious beliefs. Direct violation of the 1st Amendment. People who say "well a civil union does the same", fact is it does not. When one gets married the floodgate is opened for "special" rights, benefits and protections, one being that one cannot be forced to testify against their spouse. That also is a violation of the 14th Amendment of equal protection.

Government needs to get out of the marriage business completely, they have no basis to dictate a religious ceremony period.

You also say -

I personally am not against gays in any way. I think they have the right to live their lives their own way.

Then why are you forcing your beliefs onto them? The Pro "Prop 8" crowd are opening the door wide open for government to dictate private lives. You people fail to realize the ramifications of this, you're handing over your basic human right of living and raising your family over to the government. Stop being Zealots about this and think about what you are doing.

I am a strait heterosexual male that is not threatened one bit to what adults do in their private life. I really could care less and I also do not wish government nor anyone else to have the power to choose who or how I conduct my personal/family life! It's not only my business but my right period!

Posted by Pagan | November 8, 2008 8:17 AM
164

Patrick wrote:

I personally am not against gays in any way. I think they have the right to live their lives their own way. But that doesn't mean I think they should be married.

Wow, do you realize how that makes you sound? Read that again, but substitute "blacks" or "n*ggers" (Slog seems not to let me post with the real epithet).

I feel that [gays] can have civil marriages. But marriage is between a man and a woman.

No, marriage is usually between a man and a woman. And for all I know, in your circles (in your church?) marriage is always between a man and a woman. But you are incorrect on this.

I think they have the right to go against that and try to get laws passed.

That's big of you. Gay suffrage now!

Patrick, it sounds like you're a bit hesitant on this one. How would you feel about getting together with the LDS church and funding an ammendment to California's constitution banning homosexuals from voting? Votes are cast by straights; gays can have civil votes, right?

But for now as was proven more people in the U.S. feel the same way I do.

Proven how? You know that we're discussion a state initiative, right?

going against and protesting one church is not right, it's being a bully and just trying to scare them.

How would you characterize the church ordering its people to donate to that initiative? Was that not bullying?

Posted by Phil M | November 8, 2008 8:35 AM
165

I know you guys are upset about it, but whats done is done. The ONLY reason the LDS Church is So vocal about a matter like this is because we're taught to "Stand up for whats Right, Even if you Stand Alone." The Laws of God and the Laws of the World are 2 very different things. As time passes Society begins to let more and more bad things slide. Take for instance Rated R movies. Many years back a PG 13 movie would have stuff The World believes is ok for a 13 year old. As time passes you'll find that PG 13 movies are ALOT WORSE than Rated R movies used to be. Television shows, magazines all types of media display Ads of Sex and murder, making it seem like an everyday occurence, (which it is) but making it seem like its okay. No wonder the number of teen pregnancies is sky-rocketing. And just like in this case, Marriage has always been defined as Between a Man and Woman. The LDS Church doesnt think Society should let the definition slip up because of the mass amount of Gay people in the country. You can't be mad at a church that stands up for what they believe is right. You're standing up for what you think is right, and you lost. Thats the wonderful system we have in this country. The ability to vote. Whether you believe it is wrong or not, the fact is Majority rules. And a Majority of California Voters believe Same-Sex Marriage is Wrong. So STOP your poor attempts at Trying to bring down the LDS Church. Honestly I'm tired of seeing it on TV. This is NOT a Gay World we live in. You have to accept that. Trying to force your way of thinking onto evryone around you wont do it. Traditional marriage has been here for Centuries. I doubt anything you can do will change that.

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 9:14 AM
166

The sad thing is, the No on Prop 8 campaign failed because it was overshadowed by the fact that most of the GLBT groups spent their time campaigning more for Obama. Only to have the people who wanted change and true equality turn around and vote Yes on Prop 8. When Obama won I was deliriously happy. If a Black man can finally be the President of the United States of America maybe it will finally also be more understanding of its minority groups. What happened is that the people we expected to understand, Blacks and Latinos instead sided with the majority in stripping away our rights. Happiness at Obama winning quickly gave way to disillusionment. What I only hope now is that Obama not turn back on his word. We pay our taxes too, we are productive citizens, we aren't even a problem minority group. Maybe that's the problem. We don't have the image of being tough like the rest of the minorities. If someone doesn't hear us soon, that image is going to change because I'm tired of this bullshit, I'm tired of always taking the backseat because I'm different, and I'm mad.

If a government thinks religious fanaticism is valid in it's hate campaign on making us second class citizens, then by damn, I'll show it what fanaticism is. I'm furious.

Posted by V | November 8, 2008 9:17 AM
167

@ Phil M.. TO BE CLEAR the LDS Church DID NOT order its members to do anything whatsoever. Making plain assumptions and reading what other PROGAY people have to say about that does not make it true. The LDS Church at most asked for people to donate TIME not MONEY. Trust me I know. I sat in the meetings with them. So dont make it seem like Mormons are forced to do ANYTHING. We have minds and think just like you do. It just so happens that MANY decided to donate both time and money to the cause, and I'm glad it all worked out.

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 9:18 AM
168

KEYz, yes. Because you bigots think sex is evil. You raise your children unaware of even the basics of sex and then you wonder why they get pregnant at ages of 14? Are you blaming teenage pregnancies on us now? I'm curious what you mean by 'bad things'. Since when have media been only filled with child-friendly Disney-endorsed content? You are showing your ignorance. Even before the twentieth century books had always been filled with stories of murder and sex. Even your Bible is full of wars, sex, and crime. Slaver bigots will also probably be saying the same things as you - 'what happened to society? 50 years ago, I could have used and abused any black man and now they get to be president! The end of the world is near!'. This may not be a gay world we live in, we knew that a long time ago, but this also sure isn't a Mormon one where you think you should control everything according to your own religion.

Trust me it's only just beginning.

Posted by V | November 8, 2008 9:30 AM
169

And what the fuck. 'Upset', you call it 'upset'? Understatement of the century. Speaking for all my friends and my partner, we're not simply 'upset', we're barely controlling the anger so as not to go out and burn every Mormon church in town. You people are so cold that you don't even know the full impact of what you just did.

Posted by V | November 8, 2008 9:36 AM
170

@ KEYz -

You say

O BE CLEAR the LDS Church DID NOT order its members to do anything whatsoever.

I guess the letter from the Prophet and the First Presidency didn't send out a letter to be read to all Wards which I quote
We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a directive from the Prophet and the 1st Presidency in fact a directive from God himself in the LDS religion?

Also what do you have to say about the D&C -

We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.

-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:4

We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.

-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:9

Posted by marcus0263 | November 8, 2008 10:06 AM
171

Keyz made some reasonable slippery slope arguments, then Wrote The Following:

And just like in this case, Marriage has always been defined as Between a Man and Woman.

Wrong. Not so long ago, it was "defined" by many people as a union of one non-black man and one non-black woman. Additionally, it was defined by some as "one man and one woman of the same race" not long ago. And for Mormons, until they were forced to change, it was "one man and several women". Depending on your definition of "defined", the definition of marriage has shifted widely. Except for the weird Mormon offshoot, what seems to be the common thread is "two adults committed to spending the rest of their lives together".

The important part is that many people's definition of marriage has, at times, been based on some flawed assumptions about people. Blacks weren't considered people, and homosexuals just weren't considered. Now we know better, and some people are trying to rewrite the laws to enforce the flawed assumptions.

You can't be mad at a church that stands up for what they believe is right.

Of course we can. And in many cases we'd be justified in feeling that way, such as might be the case if a church was standing up for their belief in discrimination.

This is NOT a Gay World we live in.

Sure. And it's not a heterosexual world, either. But in the eyes of the law, heterosexuals are not equal to homosexuals, and that is wrong.

People living the Mormon lifestyle recently fought very visibly to make things even less equal in California. They absolutely deserve the derision presently aimed at them. That's not to say that others don't deserve it as well, but I've yet to hear of others getting together and dumping $20 million into the recent campaign against marriage equality.

Traditional marriage has been here for Centuries.

Do you advocate codifying religious traditions into law? This nation was formed in avoidance of that practice. Maybe you'd be more content living in a theocrasy.

Posted by Phil M | November 8, 2008 10:06 AM
172

@ KEYz -

You say

O BE CLEAR the LDS Church DID NOT order its members to do anything whatsoever.

I guess the letter from the Prophet and the First Presidency didn't send out a letter to be read to all Wards which I quote
We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.

So correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't a directive from the Prophet and the 1st Presidency in fact a directive from God himself in the LDS religion?

Also what do you have to say about the D&C -

We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.

-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:4

We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.

-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:9

Posted by Pagan | November 8, 2008 10:07 AM
173

V take it easy. ANYONE can get on a computer and talk all big and bad so what if youre furious? Burning down every church in town will only get you in jail for life. Which may not be a bad thing since you'll have all the gay sex you could ask for. Think for a minute what the man is trying to say!! He never said anything about you gays being the reason there's so many teen pregnancies! IDIOT!! he's saying SEX is portrayed in so many different ways to be good that kids are going out and doing it for fun, and not what its supposed to be for marriage. Youre a complete moron if you dont understand his message. Its clear!! Of course sex was on tv and in books before the 20th Century dumbass its the fact that its more accepted now to be normal that Kids have access to it EVEN MORE!! Think about it Dummy. Geez!!

Posted by Geez | November 8, 2008 10:12 AM
174

Correct.. Key Words Pagan.. "We ASK that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time.." The first presidency did send a letter out, yes. But NEVER ORDERED anyone to do anything. Everyone makes it sound like we were obligated to do something but we were not. Many members im sure thousands took it upon themselves to do what they could. But it was not Required. And yes Doctrine and Covenants, I'm very aware of what it says. But what it comes down to is what's right and what's wrong. Passing a law that not only makes it ok for gays to marry, and then teach about it to our kids is not only wrong, but ridiculous. Allowing this to happen goes against every moral fiber not just within mormons, but obviously the Majority of California itself. Its sad to see so many "upset" people but on the other hand, there would be EVEN more "upset" people if it didn't pass. Think about it. Protestors would be outside your doors blocking your traffic, trying to get Gay Marriage Rights to be overturned. So either way, not everyone can be happy. But at least now, the majority is. =]]

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 10:22 AM
175

haha! correct sir! thanks GEEZ! =]]

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 10:28 AM
176

Geez: Then why the fuck mention it at all? Because we are classified along with teen pregnancies as the 'evils of this world'? And who the fuck says we too condone too much sex and violence in mass media? I for one, rarely watch TV at all, because I also do not approve of the gratuitous violence, the virtually naked girls being featured to STRAIGHT audiences (and do they complain?), and the hundreds of fanatics with their own tv stations. And guess what? I don't like it, but I don't try and get a ban on naked girls just because I feel that way. Instead I try to educate my nephews and niece about it so they won't get sucked into that world just because TV says its cool. So why give this comparison when it has no relevance whatsoever in this discussion? Gay Marriage does not mean Gay Porn being distributed to innocent children. Get over it, cretin. As for big words, are you challenging me? What makes you think I will get caught? I can hop on a bus with a little bit of gasoline set fire to a temple somewhere in the neighborhood, and what would the police do? Arrest every single gay man and woman in town? Hah! Lucky for you, as I said, I'm controlling that impulse and have tried my best to calm down my friends and my partner. Keep calling us names and I may change my mind, dumbass.

Posted by V | November 8, 2008 10:30 AM
177

KEYz: yeah right, because we all know California erupted into riots when gay marriage was legalized before Prop 8 was even conceived. We all that the entire heterosexual population of Massachusetts are now staging protests against their own laws. We all know Canada's straight people are now stopping the nation's economy because they legalized gay marriage. We all know Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, etc. have now collapsed into barbarism because of widespread riots of the heterosexual population. Right? From the mouth of bigots... The only encouragement I have is that a lot of the younger generation nowadays are refusing to believe the bullshit you insist on shoving down our throats. About a God who loves us and then sends us to eternal hellfire. About doctrines which are only selectively followed. About a nation of freedom and equality which has laws that favor one religion over all the others. Hypocrite.

Posted by V | November 8, 2008 10:39 AM
178

@ KEYz -

Correct.. Key Words Pagan.. "We ASK that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time.." The first presidency did send a letter out, yes. But NEVER ORDERED anyone to do anything. Everyone makes it sound like we were obligated to do something but we were not. Many members im sure thousands took it upon themselves to do what they could. But it was not Required.
Again isn't it the belief in the LDS Church the the President is a living Prophet who God himself speaks through? And isn't it said "When the Prophet speaks it's the end of discussion?"
And yes Doctrine and Covenants, I'm very aware of what it says. But what it comes down to is what's right and what's wrong. Passing a law that not only makes it ok for gays to marry, and then teach about it to our kids is not only wrong, but ridiculous. Allowing this to happen goes against every moral fiber not just within mormons, but obviously the Majority of California itself.
Morality, doesn't it belong at home and not for Government to dictate? So the persecution of the Saints that drove them out of Missouri to the Utah desert because of their beliefs, one primary of polygamy was right? So during the "Utah War" were the Federal Government about to invade because society believed that polygamy was "Perverse" and "Immoral" was right? Are you saying that the early Church along with Joseph Smith was immoral and a perverted?
Its sad to see so many "upset" people but on the other hand, there would be EVEN more "upset" people if it didn't pass. Think about it. Protestors would be outside your doors blocking your traffic, trying to get Gay Marriage Rights to be overturned. So either way, not everyone can be happy. But at least now, the majority is.
All I have to say is a quote from a very wise man -
“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
-- Thomas Jefferson
Maybe that's why the U.S. is a "Republic" were the Constitution protects the right of the minority view, I only wish Government would uphold their oath and duty to defend it
Posted by marcus0263 | November 8, 2008 10:41 AM
179

"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians, they are so unlike your Christ"

-Mohandas K. Gandhi

Posted by V | November 8, 2008 10:49 AM
180

I am a Mormon, and I support gay marriage. I have a beloved gay son, who has a partner I love as my own son, and would love to see them be able to get married. There are many of us in the LDS faith who support equal rights for GLTB, though of course we are far from being the majority. I really believe that the way to fight for this is to run a very smart campaign, and targeting only the LDS Church (or any church which participated) is not smart....it really turns off the general public, and there will be a sympathy backlash against the No on 8 campaign. I totally understand the anger, but it won't help the cause if it is channeled against another group (some might argue another minority group). Those of you who are going after the tax status, I would caution you that only $2000 of actual tithing dollars were actually used. All the other money came from individual church members. I would consult a lawyer about this before starting down that road. The fact that support for the prop was preached and requested from the pulpit might be a better starting point. New York is thinking to start a new campaign to legalize gay marriage, and I sincerely hope they run a smarter campaign than the one in California. The No on 8 peeps didn't spend enough time explaining to black and latinos the fallacies of the Yes campaign.

Posted by kate | November 8, 2008 11:01 AM
181

I am a Mormon, and I support gay marriage. I have a beloved gay son, who has a partner I love as my own son, and would love to see them be able to get married. There are many of us in the LDS faith who support equal rights for GLTB, though of course we are far from being the majority. I really believe that the way to fight for this is to run a very smart campaign, and targeting only the LDS Church (or any church which participated) is not smart....it really turns off the general public, and there will be a sympathy backlash against the No on 8 campaign. I totally understand the anger, but it won't help the cause if it is channeled against another group (some might argue another minority group). Those of you who are going after the tax status, I would caution you that only $2000 of actual tithing dollars were actually used. All the other money came from individual church members. I would consult a lawyer about this before starting down that road. The fact that support for the prop was preached and requested from the pulpit might be a better starting point. New York is thinking to start a new campaign to legalize gay marriage, and I sincerely hope they run a smarter campaign than the one in California. The No on 8 peeps didn't spend enough time explaining to black and latinos the fallacies of the Yes campaign.

Posted by kate | November 8, 2008 11:01 AM
182

@ kate -

Well put, I myself grew up Mormon. My family has it's roots all the way to the beginning. This is what is so troubling and what really gets my blood boiling. I cannot believe they dove head first into this, it is hypocrisy to the fullest extent.

With that said the GLTB people need to get their act together along with the ACLU and I see it only being resolved at the national level. IMO garbage like Prop 8 is a direct violation of the 1st and 14th Amendments to the U.S. Constitution. The religious Zealots need to stop and think about what this kind of crap is doing. It is in fact giving Government control over ones personal and family life. They are cutting their noses off to spite their face.

Posted by Pagan | November 8, 2008 11:15 AM
183

Wonder why the mormons. go to mormos stole my rights.com
www.mormonsstolemyrights.com
and find out how they are forcing their beliefs with their tax free money.
watch, some of your other rights might be on their way too.

Posted by alfredo | November 8, 2008 12:27 PM
184

Wonder why the mormons. go to mormos stole my rights.com
www.mormonsstolemyrights.com
and find out how they are forcing their beliefs with their tax free money.
watch, some of your other rights might be on their way too.

Posted by alfredo | November 8, 2008 12:28 PM
185

@ Marcus0263
TRUE Polygamy existed in the Mormon Church at one time. Many people disagreed with it I'm sure. But The LDS Church had its reasoning for that which I already explained. Yes, many of the US saw it as immoral, which led to the Saints fleeing from Missouri into The Mountains of Utah. But also at one time was it legal to kill a Mormon in the state of Missouri. The only religion where an extermination order was issued by Gov. Boggs I'm sure you know of this. Moral Values come into play, when you think of who is right and wrong then. Was the government wrong for allowing Mormons to be killed legally? Were they right to force LDS members across the country like they did? NO!! Of course not? Polygamy and other rules of the church are justified by pure reasoning. Families lost their Father's/Husband's to wars, and required a new person to help lead/guide them. You can't compare this reasoning to yours. They are 2 totally different reasons for marriage. I have so many gay friends and family. More than I can keep track of, but you love God more than you love ANYONE else. That means family, friends, whoever. This is not a "MORMON CONCEPT" but Christianity in general. Our God is a selfish God. The Majority of Californians believe this and November 4th proved it. If not, then they believed something had to be done to restore Traditional Marriage. How can you claim to be stripped of Rights when it comes to marriage when your whole view on marriage is Wrong? Its either right or wrong.

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 1:07 PM
186

@ KEYz -

TRUE Polygamy existed in the Mormon Church at one time. Many people disagreed with it I'm sure. But The LDS Church had its reasoning for that which I already explained. Yes, many of the US saw it as immoral, which led to the Saints fleeing from Missouri into The Mountains of Utah. But also at one time was it legal to kill a Mormon in the state of Missouri. The only religion where an extermination order was issued by Gov. Boggs I'm sure you know of this. Moral Values come into play, when you think of who is right and wrong then. Was the government wrong for allowing Mormons to be killed legally? Were they right to force LDS members across the country like they did? NO!! Of course not? Polygamy and other rules of the church are justified by pure reasoning. Families lost their Father's/Husband's to wars, and required a new person to help lead/guide them.
So now the Church is pushing it's religious definition of marrige onto others as did those who persecuted them. So what do you have to say about
We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.
-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:4
We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.
-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:9
Can we say hypocrisy? Can we say forcing your religious beliefs onto others?
You can't compare this reasoning to yours. They are 2 totally different reasons for marriage. I have so many gay friends and family. More than I can keep track of, but you love God more than you love ANYONE else. That means family, friends, whoever. This is not a "MORMON CONCEPT" but Christianity in general. Our God is a selfish God. The Majority of Californians believe this and November 4th proved it. If not, then they believed something had to be done to restore Traditional Marriage. How can you claim to be stripped of Rights when it comes to marriage when your whole view on marriage is Wrong? Its either right or wrong.
They are the same and the bottom line is you're forcing your religious doctrine on others. What about the Episcopalians who support Gay Marriage? How about the Pagans, Wicca and other non Christian religious beliefs, and yes even the Atheists? So it comes down to the core issue, you're pushing and forcing your religious beliefs onto others. MMMM comes down two the two plans, one of freedom of choice and the other of forcing the will, so KEYz who's plan was that?
Posted by marcus0263 | November 8, 2008 1:45 PM
187

You all are absolutely hillarious. You would rather fight God than improve your society. Pull the 501c3 status from a church?! You should start with Obama's racist pastor first. From a RELIGIOUS perspective - its simple. The day we allow same sex marriage is the day we condone it. NO right minded Christian is going to condone it, as history has proved it will be the degredation of society. Doesn't mean we don't love you all... just means we want to use our right to vote! IS THAT O.K. with you people? My, my, my.... It's all about you isn't it... It makes it o.k. if we legalize same sex marriage, then, it makes right in your head. Whether it is voted for or against, it will never be "right" from a religious perspective. If you are atheist, or a "Darwinist", that argument doesn't support it either, as.... survival of the fittest would define two homosexual's as unfit, they can't reproduce! Your argument is hillarious, your antics are amazingly hate filled, and now you are going to fight against the LDS Church, you might as well just fight against GOD.

Posted by MormonsforJesus | November 8, 2008 2:02 PM
188

hey guess what? gay advocates are probably to blinded by hate right now to notice, but Blacks did more to pass h8 than whites, and mormons = whites.

Posted by Don robison | November 8, 2008 2:07 PM
189

hmm.. Marc lets see. The Church is NOT forcing its views on anybody. Simply funding a campaign is well within the rights of any institution religious or nonreligious. Separation of Church and State does not exclude these rights.
"Churches are within every right to get involved in the moral fiber of society" as told by some of the leaders of the No on Prop 8 Campaign.
You fight for your rights, and bitch and complain when someone exercises their rights. An institution is not in the wrong for fighting for what it believes in. Singling out the LDS Church for funding their side of the campaign is moronic and what I believe to be a lame attempt at revenge at best. Trying to get tax exempt status taken away from the LDS church? Give me a break! You gays are fighting the wrong people. If you believe The "Mormons" are wrong think again, because no laws were broken. If you guys are just looking for someone to pick on because your feelings were hurt, then pick on the Majority of California. Those were the votes that counted. Those were the votes that made the Gay Parade Happen outside the temple. If anything, its they system that is flawed. Two sides of the proposition. One wins, and One loses. Thats how it is. But dont say that The Mormon Church is forcing its views on EVERYONE else, they funded a campaign, and 52% of California agreed. Same-sex Marriage is wrong. More than Half of the populous will tell you that, and they're right!

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 2:16 PM
190

KEYz

hmm.. Marc lets see. The Church is NOT forcing its views on anybody. Simply funding a campaign is well within the rights of any institution religious or nonreligious. Separation of Church and State does not exclude these rights.

So a there wasn't a letter from the Prophet (who according to the LDS faith God directly speaks through) telling all to support a Constitutional Amendment taking basic personal rights away from a whole class of citizens is false? So excluding an entire class of citizens from rights, benefits and legal protection based on a Christian (certain Christian that is) definition of Marriage isn't violating the 1st Amendment let alone the 14th?

"Churches are within every right to get involved in the moral fiber of society" as told by some of the leaders of the No on Prop 8 Campaign.

A certain definition of "Christianities" version of morality. Are you saying other religions who accept Gays and also Atheists are "Immoral"? Remember according to the majority of society in the early years of the Church Mormons along with Joseph Smith were Immoral Perverts.
You fight for your rights, and bitch and complain when someone exercises their rights. An institution is not in the wrong for fighting for what it believes in.

As long as your rights don't infringe upon the rights of others. Forcing your religious doctrine on others is not only immoral but also against the Saviors plan. Remember it was Lucifer's plan to force the earth to abide by God's plan, it was Christ's plan of free will.

Singling out the LDS Church for funding their side of the campaign is moronic and what I believe to be a lame attempt at revenge at best. Trying to get tax exempt status taken away from the LDS church? Give me a break! You gays are fighting the wrong people. If you believe The "Mormons" are wrong think again, because no laws were broken. If you guys are just looking for someone to pick on because your feelings were hurt, then pick on the Majority of California. Those were the votes that counted. Those were the votes that made the Gay Parade Happen outside the temple. If anything, its they system that is flawed. Two sides of the proposition. One wins, and One loses. Thats how it is. But dont say that The Mormon Church is forcing its views on EVERYONE else, they funded a campaign, and 52% of California agreed. Same-sex Marriage is wrong. More than Half of the populous will tell you that, and they're right!
I have zero sympathy for the Church, they chose to push their religious doctrine into the political arena. You reap what you sow, now enjoy the fruit of your labor.

Me I'm a straight heterosexual male that does not feel threatened by adults choosing to marry. Is your marriage and family so weak that another family threatens it?

Posted by marcus0263 | November 8, 2008 3:12 PM
191

Marcus, my family is doing just fine thank you. Yes, the Savior's plan was to allow free will, not force everyone to live a life without choices. You are absolutely correct in saying so. The life we live is full of choices. This Past Tuesday the 4th of November, we had a choice, to pass a Proposition that stood for traditional marriage, or to allow a NEW exception to the rule. Choices are what we as Americans, thrive on. The choice of Religion, schools, jobs, friends, cars, where we live, EVERYTHING we do. Yes, we are fulfilling the Savior's Plan. Choices. AND 52% of The Voting Populous CHOSE Yes On 8. Why? Maybe the 52% who voted to pass this proposition WERE thinking about their families. Maybe a portion of that percentage were thinking about thier God. Or maybe even they didn't want to say they lived in a state where their children would grow up and see a society that says it is ok for homosexuality to exist. Whatever the reasoning is, the fact of the matter is that majority rules. Gays are not the only ones who have to deal with Gay Marriage being legal. EVERYONE does.

A certain definition of "Christianities" version of morality. Are you saying other religions who accept Gays and also Atheists are "Immoral"?

YES! Thats exactly what I'm saying. God does not except Gay Marriage. "Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve." Isn't that how the saying goes?? Men were created in the Image of God. It is an abomination in the sight of God, and thats why I voted the way I did. Earlier you said..

They are the same and the bottom line is you're forcing your religious doctrine on others. What about the Episcopalians who support Gay Marriage? How about the Pagans, Wicca and other non Christian religious beliefs, and yes even the Atheists? So it comes down to the core issue, you're pushing and forcing your religious beliefs onto others.

Talking about The LDS Church and how they are forcing they're beliefs on EVERYONE? Saying we are hypocritical? Your views and accusations are hypocritical in itself. Meaning, you say the LDS Church can't force their Religious beliefs on you, well what about the No on 8 Campaign? Trying to force their views onto Everyone else, that same-sex marriage is okay? Don't you think, if The LDS Church is wrong, then so are you? Either way, thats how this country is. An assortment of different views put into Laws that we live by. At the end of the day, not EVERYONE is going to be happy. But like I said before, at least the Majority is.=]

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 3:40 PM
192

KEYz -

Marcus, my family is doing just fine thank you.
So why does the family of another threaten you to the point of denying them the rights, benefits and legal protections you enjoy?
Yes, the Savior's plan was to allow free will, not force everyone to live a life without choices. You are absolutely correct in saying so.
So why are you forcing your religious beliefs on them by denying them the same rights, benefits and legal protections you enjoy?
The life we live is full of choices. This Past Tuesday the 4th of November, we had a choice, to pass a Proposition that stood for traditional marriage, or to allow a NEW exception to the rule. Choices are what we as Americans, thrive on. The choice of Religion, schools, jobs, friends, cars, where we live, EVERYTHING we do. Yes, we are fulfilling the Savior's Plan. Choices. AND 52% of The Voting Populous CHOSE Yes On 8. Why? Maybe the 52% who voted to pass this proposition WERE thinking about their families. Maybe a portion of that percentage were thinking about thier God. Or maybe even they didn't want to say they lived in a state where their children would grow up and see a society that says it is ok for homosexuality to exist. Whatever the reasoning is, the fact of the matter is that majority rules. Gays are not the only ones who have to deal with Gay Marriage being legal. EVERYONE does.
As I posted before
“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”
-- Thomas Jefferson
Maybe that's why the U.S. is a "Republic" were the Constitution protects the right of the minority view, I only wish Government would uphold their oath and duty to defend it
A certain definition of "Christianities" version of morality. Are you saying other religions who accept Gays and also Atheists are "Immoral"?

YES! Thats exactly what I'm saying. God does not except Gay Marriage. "Adam and Eve, NOT Adam and Steve." Isn't that how the saying goes?? Men were created in the Image of God. It is an abomination in the sight of God, and thats why I voted the way I did. Earlier you said..


Again you're throwing out religious law based on your religion. Direct violation of the 1st Amendment. Has it even remotely crossed your mind that you are in fact turning an unprecedented amount of control over to the Government to rule your family/personal life? Have you even given the thought that government/administrations change like the wind and you have in fact removed the basic right of defining your family and turned it over to those whose ideology you oppose? Reality check!
At the end of the day, not EVERYONE is going to be happy. But like I said before, at least the Majority is.=]

And once again I refer you to what I posted earlier
“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”

-- Thomas Jefferson

Maybe that's why the U.S. is a "Republic" were the Constitution protects the right of the minority view, I only wish Government would uphold their oath and duty to defend it
Posted by marcus0263 | November 8, 2008 3:59 PM
193

BTW KEYz you still haven't addressed

We believe that religion is instituted of God; and that men are amenable to him, and to him only, for the exercise of it, unless their religious opinions prompt them to infringe upon the rights and liberties of others; but we do not believe that human law has a right to interfere in prescribing rules of worship to bind the consciences of men, nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.
-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:4
We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.
-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:9
Posted by marcus0263 | November 8, 2008 4:05 PM
194

Marcus, you sound like a member yourself. Based on your in-depth knowledge of the Church and its teachings, tho you may not be I'll reply to your comment with Church Doctrine.

As told by the Church to its members, in an effort to create a better understanding of The Church's Stand on Prop 8:

Marriage is sacred, ordained of God from before the foundation of the world. After creating Adam and Eve, the Lord God pronounced them husband and wife, of which Adam said, “Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.” [1] Jesus Christ cited Adam’s declaration when he affirmed the divine origins of the marriage covenant: “Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh.

BETWEEN MAN AND WOMAN. Also:

"The focus of the Church’s involvement is specifically same-sex marriage and its consequences. The Church does not object to rights (already established in California) regarding hospitalization and medical care, fair housing and employment rights, or probate rights, so long as these do not infringe on the integrity of the family or the constitutional rights of churches and their adherents to administer and practice their religion free from government interference.

The Church has a single, undeviating standard of sexual morality: intimate relations are proper only between a husband and a wife united in the bonds of matrimony.

The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility towards homosexual men and women. Protecting marriage between a man and a woman does not affect Church members’ Christian obligations of love, kindness and humanity toward all people."


The reasoning for the Church taking this stand is to Protect the Integrity of the Family.

"nor dictate forms for public or private devotion; that the civil magistrate should restrain crime, but never control conscience; should punish guilt, but never suppress the freedom of the soul.
-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:4 "

Yes, I believe the Church has remained true to this Doctrine. The LDS Church funding Yes on 8, and winning as a result, does not "Control Conscience or Suppress the freedom of the soul." In essence all it does is say Homosexuals cannot marry. That is it. The LDS became vocal and supported the thought that Marriage is sacred. Ordained of God. Our belief is that if we allow Homosexuals to marry, in a fashion that is Un-Godly like, in a way that goes against what was intended, then what is Marriage? If it becomes just a tool to retain rights such as not testifying against your partner?? Marriage must be placed on the highest of pedestals. We were created in such a way, to replenish the Earth.
This is why the LDS Church stands for what it does, and I'm sticking with them.

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 5:01 PM
195

@ KEYz -

I grew up LDS, fact is my families roots are very deep, all the way to the very beginning. There's actually monuments built to two of my Great, Great Grandfathers. So yes I do have a bit of knowledge of the Church.

So again in response to you, the sole basis of the Amendment rests on your religious beliefs. Direct violation of the 1st Amendment not to mention the 14th Amendment which I quote

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
You also keep skirting the D&C 134:9 -
We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied.
-- Doctrine and Covenants 134:9
Not to mention the little tidbit of D&C 134:4, specifically
but never control conscience;
and
but never suppress the freedom of the soul
So how about religions and certain flavors of Christianity that support Gay Marriage? What about Atheists? You're forcing your religious laws on them also. Also again I point out from my previous post
Has it even remotely crossed your mind that you are in fact turning an unprecedented amount of control over to the Government to rule your family/personal life? Have you even given the thought that government/administrations change like the wind and you have in fact removed the basic right of defining your family and turned it over to those whose ideology you oppose? Reality check!
The Church sowed their oats, now they will reap what they sowed. Do you think that the all this animosity could stem from the complete Hypocrisy displayed from Salt Lake? That the fact the early Church and Saints where persecuted by Society that viewed them as Immoral and Perverted? That 170 years later they're now practicing that same bigotry that forced them to renounce their religious right to marry who they chose? All I see is excuses and spin to justify the hypocrisy, nothing more.
Posted by marcus0263 | November 8, 2008 5:34 PM
196

Again you constantly state that the Church is forcing its views on everyone else. This is not true at all. If Prop 8 wouldn't have passed we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that California passed the Proposition does not mean they're forcing their beliefs on others. You can't tell me that the majority of California voters, 52%, voted Yes On Proposition 8 because they felt pressured by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. You can't tell me that the reason Propostion 8 passed, is solely because of the LDS church and its members' involvement in the matter. Yes 170 years ago Society viewed the LDS church as "perverted and immoral" but what this all comes down to is the belief system. Everyone's beliefs are different, no question about it, but I believe and members of old and of today believed that what the Church was doing 170 years ago was the right thing to do. And this past week, the actions that were taken by The LDS Church were correct as well. I know you won't agree with me on this, but it is what it is.
And about this..

Not to mention the little tidbit of D&C 134:4,
specifically but never control conscience;
and
but never suppress the freedom of the soul

Like I Said.. I believe the Church, and its decision to be Pro-Prop 8 does not go against what this scripture states. Men and woman still have the freedom to be gay, to have total control of their consciences. Noone took away their ability to be gay and do as they want behind closed doors. All the proposition stood for was Marriage. If they feel something nagging at them from within their conscience they should. You know as well as I what's right and what's wrong. You're allowing the world to tell you what can be accepted. Just because the church is unmoving and intolerant of gay marriage does not make them guilty of bigotry.

And in regards to Amenments 1 and 14 one ratified in 1868 and the other in 1791. I doubt these rights were written to include Homosexual individual as our forefathers/congress didn't even think to include blacks and other minorites such as the American Indians. Interpretation of such amendments vary and many, such as you, vary so much to include a Homosexual Marriage. Where you see stripped rights, unequality, and bigotry, I see Life continuing as it always has. Gay Marriage Has NEVER been legal in the U.S. and now nothing has changed. Life is as it always has been. The ruling by Supreme Court making Same-Sex Marriage legal only made things worse. Of course when there is a dispute, 2 different sides with very different views, we have a voting process to take care of it. The result in this case? Gay Marriage is banned. Amendments and all, its legal.

"We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government.."

Again, The Church did not violate such scripture in exercising its right to fund Yes on 8. When a civil dispute has potential to damage the integrity of Marriage and the Family in general, of course the LDS Church is going to speak out. Especially with a Church that is so Family-Oriented. You know exactly what message I am trying to get across. There are exceptions to certain scriptures I'm sure, as long as they remain in the best interest of the people and worthy in the site of God.
Who am I to justify why the Church did what it did. And who are you to ask for such justifications?
I guess we will All see what is what when the Last Day comes. And I think we both know, that is VERY SOON.

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 6:53 PM
197

@ KEYz -

Again you constantly state that the Church is forcing its views on everyone else. This is not true at all.

What do you call a Constitutional Amendment defining Marriage between a man and a woman, Muslim Law?

If Prop 8 wouldn't have passed we wouldn't be having this conversation. The fact that California passed the Proposition does not mean they're forcing their beliefs on others. You can't tell me that the majority of California voters, 52%, voted Yes On Proposition 8 because they felt pressured by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. You can't tell me that the reason Propostion 8 passed, is solely because of the LDS church and its members' involvement in the matter.
So the Mormon millions had zero influence eh? So the letter from the Prophet had zero influence on a congregation that believes that God speaks directly through the Prophet has zero effect on the congregation eh?
Yes 170 years ago Society viewed the LDS church as "perverted and immoral" but what this all comes down to is the belief system. Everyone's beliefs are different, no question about it, but I believe and members of old and of today believed that what the Church was doing 170 years ago was the right thing to do. And this past week, the actions that were taken by The LDS Church were correct as well. I know you won't agree with me on this, but it is what it is.
So then you're saying the Early Church and the Prophet's were immoral and perverted because the majority said they were. Well then today the Church is perverted and immoral because Sharia Law says it's so. You said it, majority rules and Islam IS the fastest growing religion in the world, it sure isn't the LDS faith.
And about this..

Not to mention the little tidbit of D&C 134:4,
specifically but never control conscience;
and
but never suppress the freedom of the soul

Like I Said.. I believe the Church, and its decision to be Pro-Prop 8 does not go against what this scripture states. Men and woman still have the freedom to be gay, to have total control of their consciences. Noone took away their ability to be gay and do as they want behind closed doors. All the proposition stood for was Marriage. If they feel something nagging at them from within their conscience they should. You know as well as I what's right and what's wrong. You're allowing the world to tell you what can be accepted. Just because the church is unmoving and intolerant of gay marriage does not make them guilty of bigotry.
So legislating religious beliefs that denies rights, benefits, privileges and legal protection isn't suppressing their freedom of the soul. I see nothing here but more hypocrisy and justification of bigotry. Denying people basic rights falls more under the realm of bigotry than a "live and let live" policy doesn't it?
And in regards to Amenments 1 and 14 one ratified in 1868 and the other in 1791. I doubt these rights were written to include Homosexual individual as our forefathers/congress didn't even think to include blacks and other minorites such as the American Indians. Interpretation of such amendments vary and many, such as you, vary so much to include a Homosexual Marriage. Where you see stripped rights, unequality, and bigotry, I see Life continuing as it always has. Gay Marriage Has NEVER been legal in the U.S. and now nothing has changed. Life is as it always has been. The ruling by Supreme Court making Same-Sex Marriage legal only made things worse. Of course when there is a dispute, 2 different sides with very different views, we have a voting process to take care of it. The result in this case? Gay Marriage is banned. Amendments and all, its legal
Here, let post it yet for you again
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
I don't know about you but it only specifies citizen. Where does is say "everyone except for homosexuals"?
"We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government.."
Again, The Church did not violate such scripture in exercising its right to fund Yes on 8. When a civil dispute has potential to damage the integrity of Marriage and the Family in general, of course the LDS Church is going to speak out.
So the Prophet didn't send out a letter to be read for all Mormons to help insure the passage of Proposition 8 in California?
So Mormons don't believe that God speaks dirctly through the Prophet do they?
"When the Prophet speaks the debate is over".
N. Eldon Tanner, August Ensign 1979, pages 2-3

So tell me with a strait face the the Church isn't "mingling religious influence with civil government"?

Especially with a Church that is so Family-Oriented. You know exactly what message I am trying to get across. There are exceptions to certain scriptures I'm sure, as long as they remain in the best interest of the people and worthy in the site of God. Who am I to justify why the Church did what it did. And who are you to ask for such justifications?
Your definition of family according to your religious beliefs, what about the Episcopalian faiths belief in same sex marriage. They do believe that two Dad's and two Mom's form a family. What about Islam where it's multiple wives and one father, aren't they a family? Now how about Single Mom's and Single Dad's, aren't they a family? Here we go again back to the core issue, legislating religious law and forcing everyone to adhere. Sounds right up the line of Lucifer's plan, it sure in the hell isn't Christ's plan of free agency is it?
I guess we will All see what is what when the Last Day comes. And I think we both know, that is VERY SOON.
Once again religious law, what about the Hindu faiths belief in re-incarnation? Or even Scientology's belief in Alien spirits?
It's all about absolutes isn't it? No respect for any other faith but your own, maybe this is why the U.S. was established by our Founding Fathers as a secular Government that respects all religions and beliefs. They were very wise men who saw what happens when religion rules government. When Christianity ruled it was called the Dark Ages you know ;)
Posted by Pagan | November 8, 2008 7:45 PM
198

Keyz, I appreciate your efforts defending the LDS Church. I would appreciate it, however, if you would keep it honest.

I don't know what kind of Mormon you are but in the Church that I am a member of, you are expected to follow the prophet. In fact, that's part of the temple covenants.

When the prophets asks, most Mormons believe that they are required to do as they are told.

Be honest, drop the sophistry. Anybody who is remotely familiar with Mormonism knows what's been going on.

Posted by Hellmut | November 8, 2008 7:47 PM
199

@ KEYz -

Yes please keep it honest, I also forgot to add this item from the Salt Lake City Tribune

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10842051

Campaign finance records show the Utah-based LDS Church has made its first financial contribution in support of a Nov. 4 ballot proposition that would ban same-sex marriage in California.
The in-kind donation of $2,078.97 from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was made on Oct. 25 to ProtectMarriage.com, a coalition of faith organizations and conservative groups supporting Proposition 8.
So please tell me how the Church isn't going against it's own Doctrine. D&C 134:9 of
We do not believe it just to mingle religious influence with civil government
And people ask why there is an effort going on to remove the Church's tax exempt status. Really .......
Posted by Pagan | November 8, 2008 8:29 PM
200

hellmut, Yes When a Prophet speaks it is commandment, but tell me HOW MANY "Molly Mormons" you know that do EXACTLY as they're told? How many? You can't be serious in telling me EVERY SINGLE MEMBER of the LDS Church donated Money/Time to The Yes on 8 campaign. I sure didn't! I know plenty of members of the LDS Church who didn't even exercise their right to vote. And trust me, you will not lose a temple recommend for not Giving money or time to the Yes on 8 campaign. What I've stated so far is true. You can't try and hit me with technicalities, yes Members of the LDS Faith must follow the prophet, but it goes so far. Will our Heavenly Father punish those who had neither the funds nor money to spare for the cause? No. So claiming that I'm not being truthful about Members being REQUIRED to OBEY is indeed false, if you understand the true meaning of what I'm saying.

And @ Pagan, YES, We believe that God speaks through the Living Prophet who is Thomas S. Monson. Yes a letter was sent out to congregations to be read. I believe the letter, itself had an effect on the Members of the Church. But let's look at it this way. As of 2006 the percentage of LDS members in the United States was 1.9%. 1.9%!!! The number of LDS Members since then, has grown I'm sure, but not by more than 3-5% at the Most. Even then, Proposition 8 was for the State of California. So let's see of that 1.9% back in 2006 how many lived in the State of California? 2 years ago, 761,763 LDS members lived in California. Give or take a few. Proposition 8 passed with about 420,000 votes more than the other side had. Maybe if EVERY "Mormon" voted Yes on 8, then you could start to blame the LDS Church for being the sole reason Homosexual Marriage is banned. 761,763 is counting children who are too young to vote, and even Members who did not vote or oppose the proposition. Who cares if the Prophet sent a letter out to other Church Leaders to be read, the final outcome was not solely decided by those of the Mormon faith. It was the citizens of California who made it happen. Terrorize your neighbors, or the blacks or latinos who showed up for the first time and cast a vote against you. Singling out a religion for exercising their rights to fund a campaign is hypocritical when the very thing you are arguing about is your own rights. Think about it!

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 8:44 PM
201

@ KEYz -

Again you're ignoring the core issues

1. The Church directly meddled aka "mingled" and used it's influence in the affairs of "civil government". Direct contradiction with D&C 134:9
2. By directly "meddling" and donating money from the Church's coffers also puts it's tax exempt status at risk, see the above post from the Salt Lake City Tribune
3. The Church is directly pushing it's religion putting religious law into a State Constitution
4. The Church is practicing the same bigotry that they themselves were persecuted of in the past
5. 1st Amendment violation of Church and State
6. 14th Amendment violation of equal protection
7. They are advocating surrendering one of the most fundamental basic rights and that is ones family to the State

That's the facts and no amount of spin nor excuses will justify it's bigoted stance. Do you seriously wonder why the Church is getting so much flak? The Church played a significant role in amending a State's Constitution that removes basic rights, privileges, benefits and legal protections from a whole class of people and you're seriously wondering why all the animosity? That my friend is major "Meddling/Mingling" religious influence with civil government.

Reality, what a concept eh?

Posted by Pagan | November 8, 2008 9:09 PM
202

I am Mormon. I have many very dear friends who are gay. I adore and respect these friends like I do any of my friends and family. I do NOT believe that this is a choice someone makes. I have gay friends who are parents. Let's hope all heterosexual parents are as good of parents as my gay friends. Although I went back and forth on how to vote on Prop 8 (as I know many Mormons did), I voted yes because I felt that I would be a hypocrite to my beliefs and my faith if I didn't. Like some of the previous people have said, it's a fundamental Christian belief (even though there are some Christian groups that don't believe this way). I truly feel sorrow that I have caused disappointment among people who I love, who supported No on 8 (my husband included). But I need to stand up for what I believe and not what society wants me to believe. I think gay rights and domestic partnership rights are imperative. You're going to find Mormon, Christian, Jewish, Agnostic, old, colored, straight and gay people who are hateful. As a whole, Mormons are good people and good members of society. I truly don't believe this was an act of hate, but people standing up for what they believe. I don't believe people should set aside their religious and moral beliefs when making political (or any) decisions. It should be inherent to who you are. It's a tough issue if you truly try to understand both sides. Both sides are right.

Posted by peace | November 8, 2008 10:20 PM
203

Pagan like I said before:

The Church is NOT forcing its views on anybody. Simply funding a campaign is well within the rights of any institution religious or nonreligious. Separation of Church and State does not exclude these rights.
"Churches are within every right to get involved in the moral fiber of society" as told by some of the leaders of the No on Prop 8 Campaign.

So why would Tax Exempt status be at risk when The LDS Church has the right to "get involved in the moral fiber of society?" The reasoning for the Church "contradicting," as you say, the scripture is solely based on its views of Marriage and Family. Protecting Traditional Marriage is OBVIOUSLY an important matter to The LDS faith and Our God. Or else why would such an offer be made to protect it?

"Recognizing the importance of marriage to society, the Church accepted an invitation to participate in ProtectMarriage, a coalition of churches, organizations, and individuals sponsoring a November ballot measure, Proposition 8, that would amend the California state constitution to ensure that only a marriage between a man and a woman would be legally recognized."

A COALITION of churches, organizations and individuals funded the campaign and yet the LDS Church is attacked. Like I said before, the supporters of Same-Sex Marriage, I feel are just making a lame attempt at revenge at best.

Meddling/Mingling is well within the rights of the Church. Scriptures/Revelations received by the Church were immediate and for their time. When the society that we live in is in danger of being changed into something we believe to be wrong, we have a right to speak up and do something about it. Just like you, believe its okay to allow same-sex marriage, there's always the other side who believes otherwise. You stood for what you believed, so did the LDS Church. Then we take a vote and see how majority rules.

Thats the World we Live in.

Posted by KEYz | November 8, 2008 10:24 PM
204

KEYz Wrote -

The Church is NOT forcing its views on anybody. Simply funding a campaign is well within the rights of any institution religious or nonreligious. Separation of Church and State does not exclude these rights.
"Churches are within every right to get involved in the moral fiber of society" as told by some of the leaders of the No on Prop 8 Campaign.

So why would Tax Exempt status be at risk when The LDS Church has the right to "get involved in the moral fiber of society?" The reasoning for the Church "contradicting," as you say, the scripture is solely based on its views of Marriage and Family. Protecting Traditional Marriage is OBVIOUSLY an important matter to The LDS faith and Our God. Or else why would such an offer be made to protect it?

"Recognizing the importance of marriage to society, the Church accepted an invitation to participate in ProtectMarriage, a coalition of churches, organizations, and individuals sponsoring a November ballot measure, Proposition 8, that would amend the California state constitution to ensure that only a marriage between a man and a woman would be legally recognized."

A COALITION of churches, organizations and individuals funded the campaign and yet the LDS Church is attacked. Like I said before, the supporters of Same-Sex Marriage, I feel are just making a lame attempt at revenge at best.

Meddling/Mingling is well within the rights of the Church. Scriptures/Revelations received by the Church were immediate and for their time. When the society that we live in is in danger of being changed into something we believe to be wrong, we have a right to speak up and do something about it. Just like you, believe its okay to allow same-sex marriage, there's always the other side who believes otherwise. You stood for what you believed, so did the LDS Church. Then we take a vote and see how majority rules.

Thats the World we Live in.

Still can't get past defining marriage according to your religious beliefs and forcing it on everyone can you?


Here, it's also rather obvious I need to school you once again on the 14th Amendment -
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Remember at one time States also had written into their Constitutions forbidding things like inter racial marriage, denying Chinese, Native American, Blacks, pretty much any race other than Caucasian basic rights and privileges.


So you believe in majority rule, like when the Early Church and Prophets were considered immoral and perverts?


I'll repeat yet again -
“A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.”

-- Thomas Jefferson

Maybe that's why the U.S. is a "Republic" were the Constitution protects the right of the minority view. Not only that but establishing a secular government forbidding religion mixed into civil law.

Posted by Pagan | November 8, 2008 11:12 PM
205

I love it when people use God as justification of hate. When people pretend to know more about the thoughts of the being that supposedly created the Universe (most of which isn't even mentioned in their scriptures, where even the Sun is said to revolve around the Earth) than the being himself. When people quote scriptures as justification of being blind and deaf to other people's suffering. When people superimpose their own beliefs on that of Divine Will as if they are divine themselves. When people follow a self-declared human prophet as their only conduit to God's grace. When people forget that their God is a God of Love and not Hate, Punishment, Guilt, Shame, and Hypocrisy. When following the laws in their holy books become more important than the recognizing true human worth. When people would rather hang the Good Samaritan after letting them tend to their wounds. When people would rather stone Magdalene, burn the lepers, turn away the beggars, murder the tax collector, shun anyone who they fancy as 'sinful' rather than notice that they themselves aren't that spotless to begin with. When people think that they themselves have enough Godly knowledge to judge what is right and wrong. The puritans who think that following the book word for word is the only thing that will get them to heaven. Precisely why more and more people nowadays are refusing to believe in man-made religions. You put your own religion to shame. You took Jesus' words, twisted them into what you think they mean, and then use it as a weapon in controlling what YOU think is the right way to live in this world.

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in...

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these things ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee...." (Matthew 23:13, 23:23-26)

And guess what the Pharisees did? Them who were pure, who followed God's laws to the T, who took the law as above love, who refused to mingle with the sinners, the unclean, and the infidels. They plotted and crucified Jesus as a sinner.

If Christians were as intolerant before as they are now and followed the laws of the Bible as they were written, guess what? Joseph would never have married Mary and instead had her stoned and killed for adultery as per the laws the Leviticus, the same book that mentions the laws against men lying with men in a woman's bed.

Christians nowadays have become that which Jesus preached against. The establishment of man-made churches and sects have taken away the message and simply made the Christian religion into another incarnation of the very religion Jesus labeled as hypocritical.

Did you know for instance, that back when Early Christians were still being hunted down and killed in arenas for the pleasure of Roman Emperors, they were a bit more sympathetic and recognized that love is indeed love?

Ever heard of St. Serge and St. Bacchus?

http://www.colfaxrecord.com/detail/91429.html

They were two Roman soldiers who were martyred. They are described as married and as lovers and the Church itself recognized this. Jonathan and David were married and Saul even referred to David as his 'being his relative by way of marriage'. The KJV version is edited from the original Hebrew so that this is covered up.

Posted by benM | November 9, 2008 1:48 AM
206

Mormons are truely a worthless group of people
they are all trash

Posted by Mormons suck | November 9, 2008 5:15 AM
207

Mormons are truely a worthless group of people
they are all trash

Posted by Mormons suck | November 9, 2008 5:15 AM
208

There are many Mormons who worked against Proposition 8. If it were not for Mormon dissidents, you would not even know about the Mormon fund raising efforts. We researched and published the donors' religious affiliation.

Referring to me as trash says more about you than about you.

Posted by Hellmut | November 9, 2008 9:08 AM
209

Politics aside, I don't think that this protest makes very much sense just in terms of what these protesters are trying to do. I am a member of the LDS church and I have a lot of disagreements with it over the issues like this. I don't support their involvement in prop 8 much less any political activity. However, protesting outside the Mormon temple makes very little sense just in terms of who the message is trying to reach. The nature of the building itself is not administrative nor its it heavily trafficked during the day.

And although I strongly disagree with the counter protesters actions, It has to be understood that the building is extremely sacred to members. If the protesters wanted to show true demonstrative power, they should organize efforts to protest outside of the church's headquarters in Salt Lake City where the administrative powers lie. It would be the equivalent of protesting the actions of high profile leader of Islam outside the Dome of the Rock or the Ka'bah where faithful members are trying to worship in peace.

Also as for the issue of the church's tax exempt status, the use of tithing money for political purposes is simply not a true fact. Tithing is used for the purchase and upkeep of its grounds, buildings, and construction. This is verifiable by internal and external audits. No members are forced to pay tithing. I don't pay tithing and I would consider myself a member in good standing. Monies used for political purposes would come from the dividends from investments and holdings that the church has. 10 percent of the income the Mormon church makes comes from these investments and holdings. These various assets are owned by Deseret Holdings, LLC which is not a tax exempt corporation.

So really all I'm saying is that I think all of this anger towards the LDS church is justified, but misdirected. If these people want to really express their feelings, it should not be in the form of shouting at a minivan with an old Mormon couple going to the temple on a weekday, it should be at the administration in Salt Lake City

Posted by Sydney Pendle | November 9, 2008 9:13 AM
210

keyz,

There are tens of thousands of Mormons serving missions every year because the Mormon prophet says so.

There are millions of Mormons tithing their income because the prophet says so.

There are thousands of Mormons who contributed more than a $1000 dollars because the prophet says so.

If it had not been for the leadership's call to action, the fund raising phone calls, and, in many cases, the shaming, most Mormons would not have lifted a finger about Proposition 8.

You can deny it all you want but anyone remotely familiar with Mormonism knows of the attachments of the Mormon rank and file to their priesthood leaders.

There is a reason why 2% of the population have raised 80% of the funds for Proposition 8.

Posted by Hellmut | November 9, 2008 9:14 AM
211

@209, Sydney wrote:

I don't support [the LDS Church's] involvement in prop 8 much less any political activity. However, protesting outside the Mormon temple makes very little sense just in terms of who the message is trying to reach.

So instead of protesting, complete and submit this pre-filled IRS form 13909 (tax-exempt organization complaint referral). More details and a blank 13909 are also available. If you're a member of the church, you may want to check the "I am concerned that I might face retaliation or retribution if my identity is disclosed" box.

Posted by Phil M | November 9, 2008 9:52 AM
212

It’s a sin to get divorced but I don’t see a Constitutional Amendment banning it. The Mormons, Catholics & other religious groups need to enforce their beliefs in their churches not in the courts or in the constitution. Let me explain briefly what these folks are defending: Straight Marriage = One Man & One Woman at a time, repeat as necessary.

Posted by Matthew | November 9, 2008 10:00 AM
213

Marcus,

You call my statement ignorant because you disagree with it, not because it actually is. Why do I say that? Because you do not know me. You do not know ANYTHING about me. You ASSUME which makes an ass out of U and ME. Way to go. I am not ignorant nor was that statement. You are judging me. Being a hypocrite and justifying it by saying someone else, the Mormons are hypocrites. Boy is that rich!

That was my point: why is it ok to be a hypocrite yourself in response to someone else you don't like being one?

I suggest you read the definitions of those words yourself, including liberalism. Let's not play semantics. You know what I mean. They are using tactics and characteristics of fascism. Obviously they are not a fascist as in like a government can be.

One key part of the definition I am referring to is: "forcible suppression of opposition and criticism". That is what Yelling and threatening the Mormon church is. Especially dumb when THEY aren't the ones who passed the Prop. 70% of black people voted for it as they turned out in RECORD numbers to vote for Obama.

Think about this: if it were a black church like the one Obama went to and members from it did the SAME EXACT THING. Would gays be protesting and surrounding that "black" church threatening to take away its tax-exempt status? NO. Of course not because they would not get away with it. Because everyone would see how bigoted that is. But you can get away with being hypocrites and threaten a bunch of white people that believe in a God. And no one will call ya on that. Except people with common sense.

Posted by dave | November 9, 2008 10:18 AM
214

@ Dave -

MMM let's see Dave you directed at post at me saying what?

so because you think mormons are being hypocrites its okay for you and these guys to be hypocrites?

You are a fascist posing as a liberal for Freedom and equality, when you just want to get one over on a religion. Liberalism is a good thing when its actually about freedom and liberalism. This isn't. This attack on a group of people, the mormons, is childish at best, ILLIBERAL at worst.


And what did I post in response?
I'm saying the Mormon Church are Hypocrites Dave and yes I was raised Mormon Dave. I suggest your read a little history of the LDS Church and you'll find out how totally hypocritical they are with this. So Dave I also suggest you read the definition of Bigot and Fascist before making such an ignorant statement ;)

You then further your assumptions and ignorance by posting
You call my statement ignorant because you disagree with it, not because it actually is. Why do I say that? Because you do not know me. You do not know ANYTHING about me. You ASSUME which makes an ass out of U and ME. Way to go. I am not ignorant nor was that statement. You are judging me. Being a hypocrite and justifying it by saying someone else, the Mormons are hypocrites. Boy is that rich!

Who's making ASSuptions Slick?

A wise man once said "It's better to keep ones mouth shut than to open it and remove all doubt".
Posted by marcus0263 | November 9, 2008 11:25 AM
215

@ Dave -

On other thing Slick, you call me "Fascist" because I oppose government dictating a persons personal life. lol now that's choice

Posted by marcus0263 | November 9, 2008 11:42 AM
216

Here's something that shows while the intent is good the ACTION is wrong. Like I said the Ends do NOT justify these Means...

Do you think there are enough Mormons in California that if every one of them voted for Prop 8 (which they obviously didn't) that Prop 8 would pass? NO. Of course not.

Do you not see? This is not about the Mormons. This isn't even about them being hypocrites. This isn't about gay marriage. Attacking people who are NOT responsible for Prop 8 passing is misguided or childish. I'm not sure which.

This is so sad that this is what passes for Liberalism and Equality today. Attacking a group of people because they are different than you. Isn't that what has hurt gays personally all these years? And some of them turn around and DO THE SAME THING.

Definition of Liberalism:
A political philosophy advocating personal freedom for the individual (that goes for MORMONS too), GRADUAL reform in political and social institutions.
Freedom from rigid doctrine and authoritarianism.

Attacking a group of people and trying to forcibly hurt their church is pretty rigid and authoritarian. The mormons get to believe what they want and so do the gays. There was an election. Gay marriage lost, so now move forward and try again. Don't regress into children and attack a church. That shows how biased you are of religious people, not how fair you are and how much you want to be able to marry.

Posted by dave | November 9, 2008 11:44 AM
217

haha ProGay Rights people make me sick! Protests and protests and more protests, hateful remarks towards a Church all because you lost is fuckin stupid! lets look at something.

California's black and Latino voters, who turned out in droves for Barack Obama, provided key support for a state ban on same-sex marriage. Christian, married and older voters also helped give the measure the winning edge, according to exit polls for The Associated Press.

Proposition 8 overturns a May California Supreme Court decision legalizing gay nuptials and rewrites the state constitution to define marriage as a union between a man and a woman.

Exit poll data showed seven in 10 black voters and more than half of Latino voters backed the ballot initiative, while whites and Asians were split.

Though blacks and Latinos combined make up less than one-third of California's electorate, their opposition to same-sex marriage appeared to tip the balance. Both groups decisively backed Obama regardless of their position on the initiative.

So why are gays protesting outside the LDS Temple? Because they're all idiots. Too butt hurt from the results to realize its the everyday people around them who voted for the Proposition 8. And if you Gay Guys are going against the Mormon Church for funding Yes on 8, you're idiotic. Picking on a Church that had a history of being, well different, shows how desperate you are. If you really really really wanna get married so bad, move to Canada, or Belgium, or even the Netherlands. I hear they have wonderful deals for Gay Couples too.

Idiots man, I swear!

Posted by Geez | November 9, 2008 12:29 PM
218
14th Amendment
Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Let's see what happens when it hit's the National Stage shall we?
Posted by marcus0263 | November 9, 2008 1:06 PM
219

Please, Geez, where are we? In kindergarten?

I just don't get why Miss Miller is picking on me. Johny did it, too!

Mormons comprise 2% of California's population but raised 70 or 80% of the money. That's why they our religions is being held accountable.

Quit whining and stand up for your children and neighbors' rights and you will find that less people will be afraid of you.

Posted by Hellmut | November 9, 2008 1:17 PM
220

@ Hellmut -

Not to mention the Hypocrisy of the Early Church being persecuted for it's beliefs, primarily the Church's belief of Marriage. Now fast forward 170 years to now be persecuting others for their belief of Marriage. This isn't Hypocrisy is it?

Posted by marcus0263 | November 9, 2008 1:27 PM
221

Geez, you don't get it do you? The issue here isn't the number of votes, but the group which drove the campaign and gave the most money ($22.8 Million in California, $6.9 Million in Arizona) in support of Proposition 8, which made us look like a bunch of perverts trying to convert children in their campaign ads. We are not prostitutes, nor are we pedophiles, nor do we attempt to influence nor control how other people live their lives. We have never deserved the focused hatred on us. We just want to be left alone, much like the Mormons not so long ago when they fled to Utah.

It's not us who still go door to door, forcing leaflets down other people's throats.

-Tanya & Jamie

Posted by Tanya & Jamie | November 9, 2008 5:17 PM
222

How exactly does gay marriage affect the sanctity of your own marriages? Unless your wife's a closet lesbian or your husband's a closet gay man, you have absolutely no right to care what other people do consensually in the privacy of their bedrooms. This morbid fascination with the sex lives of other people make me wonder how much action these mormons are really getting from their own spouses.

Some of you may have gay children still in the closet (and lord save them, with parents like you constantly telling them they were sinners from the day they were born - not ordinary sinners mind you, but the booked-for-hell kind with no hope of redemption but giving up earthly happiness - they'll grow up to be the most insecure and unhappy people ever). I hope you will some day realize what you have taken away from them.

Posted by lala | November 9, 2008 5:25 PM
223

Sounds like some people do not like the way politics work unless they get what they want just because moral america does not want to see same sex marriage doesnt mean lets go show how stupid we can be by trying to trash a religious sanctuary... That shows you really deserve little to no respect.

Posted by Lil D | November 9, 2008 8:37 PM
224

@ Lil D -

Let's see how much "respect" you would receive if for example your organization contributed over 1/2 the money to pass a "Constitutional Amendment" to remove your right to marry.

Here since you types keep ignoring the 14th Amendment, let me post it yet again

Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Posted by marcus0263 | November 9, 2008 9:33 PM
225

Which version of 'morality', lil D? If you people truly did want to subscribe to a moral America, why do we have divorce? Why do we have porn? Why do we have prostitutes?

Why don't you move to somewhere where religion actually controls the government. Like Iran for instance. America's morals does not mean CHRISTIAN morals.

Shows how much of a prude you really are isn't it? Or does it actually hurt you physically to see two men or two women exchanging vows of love? Get over the hypocrisy forchrissakes. I bet you watch porn, wank off, have affairs, think Paris Hilton is hot, dream of doing it with two hot girls, had lustful thoughts about Palin like most of the straight men who voted for Prop 8 did.

Spare me the empty rhetoric on morality. We aren't doing anyone harm. Direct your anger to pedophile priests instead, or rapists, or drug dealers, or adulterers, or wife-beaters, or homophobic republicans who are later caught having sex in public bathrooms, or corrupt church leaders, not at us, if you are truly concerned over a 'moral america', hypocrite.

Posted by AZrugbyguy | November 9, 2008 9:47 PM
226

The way I see it, this is a very interesting contrast in beliefs.

Gays want marriage because they think there is nothing wrong with being gay and they are a normal part of society entitled to certain rights.

And...

Mormons and other religions with Bible origins read that Soddom and Gommorah were destroyed by God because of wickedness which included homosexuality. (I'm referencing the part where all the men of Sodom cam out and wanted to get to "know" Lot's male visitors.)

("Know" in the bible means "to have sex with". An example of this is when it says that Adam "knew" his wife and gave birth to Abel.)

(Also, this is where the origins of the word sodomy come from which is how homosexuals copulate.)

In conclusions, I think we all need to relax and listen to the joyous words of Peter Griffin's Cowboy Gay Sex Song:

Well there once were two cowboys all alone out on the trail.
And they discovered they could sleep with another male.
Now they're having butt sex.
Cowboy butt sex...
Sod-o-my~~!!!!
Come on everybody!
Sod-o-my~~!!!!
Sod-o-my~~!!!!
Sodomy.

I think that pretty much says it all. Those who would like to hear the song can go here:

http://www.imeem.com/anim3/music/SqAwmNCJ/peter_griffin_cowboy_gay_sex_sodomy/

Posted by JT | November 10, 2008 12:20 AM
227


I was raised Mormon and most of my family that I have a good relationship with are still practicing Mormons.

I think it is very important that we continue to protest, boycott, and make clear our outrage at the Mormon community for it financial backing and grassroots success in passing prop 8. Not out of anger (although I think that is healthy) but because I think it will be effective.

There are going to be numerous elections and court battles in the years to come and Mormons will continue to support the anti equality movement just as strongly as they did Yes on Prop 8. Unless we take some sort of action.

The Mormon church hates scrutiny! It's even a deep rooted cultural aspect of the society that they try hard to blend in to their communities and avoid talking about any of the more 'tricky' ascpects of the religion.

Unlike some of the more aggressive Mormons writing on this thread, who I suspect are just parroting conservative radio - Really? Adam and steve? That old chestnut? -Most of the Mormons I have heard from or read quotes of seem surprised and confused by the anger that is being turned toward them.

Lets keep surprising them! If this become a major media issue Mormons will back down! The LDS Church being a perceived by America as the central opponent of the gay rights movement is about the last thing the LDS church's leaders want. I'm sure there are thousands of liberals out there right now reading about those 'tricky' parts of the religion that those missionaries aren't so excited to talk about in their initial attempts to convert.

Once even independent and conservative voters realize that the anti-equality movement is being financial backed by a group that is traditionally viewed to be just as extreme as gays are, it will color the dialoge and make it a lot harder for the misinformation ads that the Moromons financially backed to be so effective.

We can not sit back any more and be tolerant of intolerance!

Boycott Utah! Boycott Marriot Hotels! Write to the IRS to take away their tax status! Picket in front of temples constintlly! Yell at Mormon missionaries! Be as loud as possible till uninformed people start asking why are we so mad! Even if these things aren't effective in themselves it dosen't matter. We just need to do anything to keep this continually in the media and force the Mormons to back out of this fight for our equality.

Lets go scare some Mormons.


Posted by Raised Mormon | November 10, 2008 1:33 AM
228

@ 226: That's the most hilarious thing I read in all these comments... Props.

Posted by Garrett | November 10, 2008 6:59 AM
229

why not protest blacks? call them names? go to southern cali and call them wetbacks? why?? cuz you would get your sissy asses beat! haha attack the mormons they wont do anything! thats exactly whats happening here!

Posted by Geez | November 10, 2008 10:01 AM
230

@ Raised Mormon.. "let's go scare some Mormons!"

Youre an idiot.

have a nice day.

Posted by KEYz | November 10, 2008 10:07 AM
231

@ KEYz

@ Raised Mormon.. "let's go scare some Mormons!"

Youre an idiot.

have a nice day.


So Mormons didn't/don't try to scare everyone with "Allowing Gays to marry will destroy families" and other bullshit they spew do they?


You're too funny ......


Sucks having your own tactics thrown back in your face, isn't it?


Posted by marcus0263 | November 10, 2008 10:47 AM
232

Garrett and JT, it's funny how some people who comment talk about God and the Bible then show their true colors by falling back to homophobic name-calling.

http://www.christiangay.com/he_loves/sodom.htm

Did you even consider for instance what Lot offered in exchange for denying the townspeople 'to know' the angels? HE OFFERED HIS TWO VIRGIN DAUGHTERS and his concubine to be raped instead!!! Is that what you call a sinless man? And they did, they raped the concubine until she came back and died on Lot's doorstep. Think on that.

Jesus himself says:

Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Matthew 10:11-15

The sin of not being hospitable to travelers is worse than whatever happened to Sodom and Gomorrah. And you call yourself Christian? When you would rather turn away those you fancy as sinners rather than being kind to their plight? I repeat what our people have said again and again, our 'sin' is not our choice. If you don't believe that why don't you try and become gay, see if you can.

I don't know if this will help you understand us better. You're all definitely close-minded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PooEhBxh0NY

Posted by AZrugbyguy | November 10, 2008 11:01 AM
233

Geez, why not attack blacks? Because the total voting population does not count and they didn't do anything else. They have also been subject to a different kind of evil, and that we understand. What use would resurrecting racism do?

At least WE recognize the oppression on other people, unlike you. They are also culturally highly religious, but here's the difference. None of them publicly funded the campaign to slew lies about us. They just voted for themselves, and did nothing to convince other people to vote for their side. We refuse to bring back oppression against blacks.

On the other hand, Mormons though also a small voting population, raised 70% of the hate-filled campaign ads against us.

2.3%

A MERE TWO POINT THREE PERCENT is what made prop 8 won. 52.3% is hardly what you would call a majority over the other 47.7%. 52.3% gets to revoke universal rights and liberties on the other 47.7%. THAT is why we're mad.

Thankfully, as the older generation moves on, we're seeing change. Someday we will have those votes. But for the meantime, we will fight hate with hate.

Posted by AZrugbyguy | November 10, 2008 11:19 AM
234

And one last thing:

From the landmark court case, Loving vs. Virgina (1967) which forever took away the laws which forbade mixed race couples from getting married:

http://www.freedomtomarry.org/pdfs/mildred_loving-statement.pdf

Surrounded as I am now by wonderful children and grandchildren, not a day goes by that
I don't think of Richard and our love, our right to marry, and how much it meant to me to
have that freedom to marry the person precious to me, even if others thought he was the
"wrong kind of person" for me to marry. I believe all Americans, no matter their race, no
matter their sex, no matter their sexual orientation, should have that same freedom to
marry. Government has no business imposing some people’s religious beliefs over
others. Especially if it denies people’s civil rights.
I am still not a political person, but I am proud that Richard's and my name is on a court
case that can help reinforce the love, the commitment, the fairness, and the family that so
many people, black or white, young or old, gay or straight seek in life. I support the
freedom to marry for all. That's what Loving, and loving, are all about.

-Mildred Loving

Posted by AZrugbyguy | November 10, 2008 11:28 AM
235

This is the 229th post on this thread on an issue that looks like it has been hacked to death. All I have to say I direct to my dear fellow humans who believe that they are born gay and remain unalterably so (which obviously prompts @110 the comparison of blackness to gayness. Even IF it could be proven (mind you the jury of science is still out about whether or not alcoholic beverages are/are not healthy, even in moderation) that someone is born gay, such as if I had a predisposition to alcoholism, were I to indulge in such a lifestyle, resigning myself to nothing more than animalistic predeterminism, I would deny all that is superbly inherent in humanity - the ability to rise above what nature dealt us and become something more. History shows that healthy societies are built on strong family(marriage between a man and woman and their children)-centred foundation. That is why humanity has prospered like it has. We all ride on the backs of the toil of moral fathers and mothers who built this great nation - homosexualism, amongst MANY social ills, is evidence a societal retreat to what resembles a society of beasts - eat or be eaten, survival of the fittest, if it feels good do it, accept me for what I am - just read the above posts and you can see this bestial interchange play out.

Posted by Jason | November 10, 2008 11:50 AM
236

@ Jason

Well Jason your justification/argument again shows what you and the religious zealots base it on, "your" version/definition of morals and religion.


Fact is Homosexuals have been around and have married all through history. It wasn't until when Christianity ruled was when it became "immoral". You do know that when Christianity ruled that's what is referred to as the "Dark Ages" don't you?


I'll leave with a quote from one of the great Genius's of all time


The greatest tragedy in mankind's entire history may be the hijacking of morality by religion.

-- Arthur C. Clarke

Posted by marcus0263 | November 10, 2008 1:23 PM
237

@236

I spoke nothing of religion. That is something you have imagined.

That said, if you consider the hallmarks of the homosexual lifestyle (rampant promiscuity, psychologically traumatic, high rate of illness and disease, non-reproductive, narcissism, pre-occupation with sex, to name a few - speaking of the lifestyle generally and not individual cases that may differ on some of these points) and try to equate those to morality, you would not even cause Mr. Clarke himself to bat an eyelid, let alone grant you acknowledgement with a response.

It is plain. Homosexualist sophistry is definitely worth protecting children from. Californian voters chose in the defense of decency. Individual Mormons who campaigned for what they believed in should not be deriled any more than a No-on-Prop-8 should not be for campaigning for what they believe.

Posted by Jason | November 10, 2008 3:04 PM
238

Jason wrote:

the hallmarks of the homosexual lifestyle (rampant promiscuity, psychologically traumatic, high rate of illness and disease, non-reproductive, narcissism, pre-occupation with sex, to name a few

Pardon my butting in here, but aren't most of those the hallmarks of the "young men without the typical constraint of girls' avoidance of gaining a reputation for promiscuity" lifestyle and of the "1970's coed college freshman" lifestyle?

Posted by Phil M | November 10, 2008 3:37 PM
239

I've been following this thread for some time now--sometimes wincing, often laughing. What astonishes me to no end is that no one up to this point has been able to put together a logical, cogent argument for the Pro Prop 8 side. What I'm hearing, again and again, and what I've *always* heard during debates such as this, is a really abhorrent abuse of the concept of God. Everyone should go back and read Phil M.'s entries 154 & 164. I think what I find most offensive is how people have, over many millenia, taken an entirely "theoretical concept" (which God is--if you can't see, touch, smell, or hear God, then God is theoretical and technically does not exist)and twisted it, molded it, kneaded it into fact. Faith is a wonderful thing to know; to follow anything like a lamb to slaughter and use it to look people in the eye and tell them your way is the only way is the final resting place of the weak, because it absolves you of the need to take responsibility for your actions. Everything is in service to God. Everything is God's will. But when is anything in service to you, or to your other fellow human beings? When is anything ever done by your *own* will? God has become a crutch to those who've lost either the will or the ability to think for themselves. God has become the scapegoat. And how easy is that? Blaming an entity that no one can see, and no one can dispute because...well, just because he isn't their doesn't mean he doesn't exist, and doesn't this country give me the freedom to believe that? This country gives you the freedom to look into a blank blue sky and say, "I believe in you, oh Lord!" And no one can take that away from you. This country gives you the freedom to take a rock from the ground, stare at it, and cry out, "I believe!" This country gives you the freedom to believe that a single group of human beings simply trying to live their lives just like you are immoral simply because you opened up a book, thumbed through the pages, found a passage, and said, "It's God's will." You have the freedom to believe all of these things. And I don't have the freedom to go down to the county clerk's office, pay the government cash money for a certificate that says "Marriage," and spend the rest of my life with my partner free of persecution and with all the same legal rights, privileges, and obligations as you? I'm pretty sure that concept violates everything this country and our constitution stand for. Your way of using God as the scapegoat for your own deep-seated hatred for anything that doesn't fit within your view of what you think is right and moral is about the most un-American thing I can imagine. You don't live in the same America I know.

Posted by James S. | November 10, 2008 11:11 PM
240

I think it is very sad that a group in the is day and age is so willing to target one religious group as the sole reason that a law has passed. I bet if you took a poll of the people who voted yes on prop 8 you will find that it took more than the "Mormon's" to pass Prop 8. FYI the money that was donated in the cause of the Yes on 8 campaign by the members of the LDS church were provided by their personal accounts and that there was no money donated by the actual church. The tithing that is required by it's members was still required. It was their freeagency to use their personal funds to donate to the Prop 8 campaign. The church has always encouraged it's members to vote and get involved with their country's government as a good citizen. The Prop 8 campaign was never held at a LDS building. Several churches were invovled to pass a law that intertwines with what they believe to be God's law. As is the way all Americans vote and get involved with campaigns. Just as the the citizens that voted for or against Prop 8. But there was one major difference from the Yes on Prop 8 Campaign and the No on Prop 8 Campaign. The Yes on Prop 8 Campaign just stated their beliefs on marriage. Where on the other hand the No on Prop 8 Campaign singled out and attacked one religion. Isn't it interesting they picked the one religion that has been persecuted for the past 200 years, by both religious and not religious circles. It is a sad state that our country has come to that you are still persecuted for your religious beliefs - why did our ancestors want to separate themselves from England?

Posted by Kay | November 11, 2008 10:37 AM
241

@ Kay -

What's so sad Kay let alone completely Hypocritical is the Church as you say

the one religion that has been persecuted for the past 200 years,
which primarily was for the Church's beliefs in marriage. Now they're "persecuting" others for their belief in marriage.


Not only that Kay but the Church DID in fact donate directly to Proposition 8.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10842051

LDS Church donates to back Proposition 8

Campaign finance records show the Utah-based LDS Church has made its first financial contribution in support of a Nov. 4 ballot proposition that would ban same-sex marriage in California.


Not only that but the "Prophet" spoke and called all members to donate money and time to insure the passage of Prop 8. And let's be honest Kay, any good true believing Mormon knows as Eldon Tanner said "One the Prophet speaks, the debate is over".


So you and the Church have made your bed, now lay in it. It's rather ignorant to think that the Church pushing it's bigotry and taking away a class of citizens rights wouldn't generate outrage.


REALITY, WHAT A CONCEPT

Posted by marcus0263 | November 11, 2008 11:48 AM

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