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Saturday, November 8, 2008

Another Minority Community Disappoints at the Ballot Box

posted by on November 8 at 17:13 PM

This time, my own.

Kevin Drum at Mother Jones compared 2004 and 2008 exit polls, and lists the groups that Obama did worse with than Kerry. Topping his list? Gay voters. Kerry won 77%, of the gay vote in 2004; Obama won 70% of gay voters, while the percentage of gay voters going for third-party candidates rose from from 0% to 3%.

Obama did better with gun owners—gun owners—than Kerry did.

So who are the members of this suspect 7%? Who are the homos who voted for Kerry in 2004 but this year voted against the guy that promised to repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell and DOMA, who voted against the guy who believes that same-sex couples should all the same rights and responsibilities as opposite-sex couples, who voted against the guy that supports adoptions by same-sex couples, who voted against the guy who mentioned gays and lesbians at his convention acceptance speech, who voted against the guy who confronted African American homophobia in an African American church (Martin Luther King’s church), who voted against the guy who endorsed a “NO vote on Prop 8? And instead voted for the guy who supports DOMA and DADT, opposes adoptions by same-sex couples, endorsed the anti-gay marriage amendment in Arizona, and sold his soul to the religious right?

Who are these homos?

I have an idea: The 23% of gays and lesbians who voted for Bush in 2004? Deluded dumbfucks, each and every one, Log Cabin Republicans, rich queers who identify most strongly with other folks in their tax bracket. Hopeless and past help. But the 7% who voted Kerry in 2004 and McCain in 2008? It’s hard to avoid the conclusion that they’re racist gay men and women, homos who couldn’t bring themselves to vote for the black guy who, despite his opposition to marriage for same-sex couples, backs us on every other issue.

And as I said in this blog post—a post that brought charges of racism down on my head—these racist homos are scum.

RSS icon Comments


it's obvious. In 2004, many gay republicans held their nose and voted for Kerry, due to bush being a disaster. This time, they had a "moderate" republicn, so that 7 is the number of queer repubs who went back to the fold after 2004. Didn't the log cabin group endorse McCain this year? And NOT endorse Bush in 2004?

Posted by utah | November 8, 2008 5:25 PM

That's correct. I ended up the opposite of these homos, I detested Kerry but voted for Obama this year.

Posted by TMW | November 8, 2008 5:29 PM

Er, actually I don't know about all of the homos who voted for McCain but I do know something about some of the people who liked McCain. They were older, but not rich. They thought Obama was okay, but had a problem with voting with someone who was 1.) Younger than they were (Obama is a "kid" with hardly any experience, maybe in 2012 he'd be good, but he's just too new) 2.) Too liberal (they hate George Bush and are pissed off with the Republican party but they are die-hard conservatives) 3.) They like the pre-election John McCain, he was a Maverick then and he hates Bush as much as them. 4.) Most hate Sarah Palin as much as we Democrats do, but figure McCain was forced to chose her by the rest of the party. 5.) Didn't think McCain would die and leave Palin in charge. 5.) Military experience is really, really important when your in the middle of two wars and losing both.

p.s. They all liked Obama.

p.s.s. Except one related to me who just didn't vote. She was totally racist.

Posted by yucca flower | November 8, 2008 5:29 PM

“I do know this, though: I’m done pretending that the handful of racist gay white men out there—and they’re out there, and I think they’re scum—are a bigger problem... than the huge numbers of homophobic African Americans are for gay Americans, whatever their color.”

Hey Dan
I’m not sure how you measure a “handful” but I can assure you that a lot of gay black people would be willing to stop pretending that black homophobia isn’t a big problem if you stop pretending that there are a mere "handful" of racist gay white men out there. That self congratulatory tone is one of the main reasons black lesbians and gay men are reluctant to join whole heartedly in the gay rights struggle. I and a lot of black gay people I know, routinely decide where we feel less marginalized – among the larger, visible gay community or among the black community and its homophobia. And in case your black cultural informants haven't told you, I'll let you in on a little secret: a lot of gay black people would rather take their chances with straight white people rather than deal with the Castro or Chelsea.

As you may know, a gay bar here in San Francisco had been carding black patrons for years before San Francisco’s Human Rights Commission finally got wind of it. When an interracial group of people protested outside the bar for a few nights, they were subjected to the ugliest invective anybody has heard in a long time from the largely white group of patrons inside the bar.

As long as you’re going to stop pretending, why don’t you stop pretending that white gay men are any more or less sensitive to issues of discrimination or racism, or any more or less dedicated to the fight for social justice than anybody else? I will be perfectly willing to admit the same thing about black people. The larger gay culture is dominated by the cares, concerns and interests of white gay men to the exclusion of every other gay group out there including lesbians. I hate Black homophobia. It is virulent and physically dangerous for gay people, especially black gays, but I’ll be god damned if I’m going to stand by while white gay men of all people scapegoat black people for passage of Prop 8.

It seems that white gay people are interested in us only when they want us to support the flawed comparison between the black civil rights struggle and gay rights. Passage of prop 8 is one setback on the road to equality for gay people and is attributable in no small part to the smugness of the no on prop 8 organization.

How many set backs do you think black people had to overcome before state sanctioned terror was finally ended?

Posted by HDS | November 8, 2008 5:31 PM

I should say "p.s. They all liked Obama and would vote for him in 2012 if he were a Republican.

Posted by yucca flower | November 8, 2008 5:32 PM

I held my nose for Kerry in 2004, but this year I voted my conscience since I knew Obama would win Washington State. I get tired of a) people assuming I voted for Nader, and b) being told I "wasted" my vote. My ideal candidate would support real nationalized health care and other things that are usually part of the "loony left".

Posted by Q*bert H. Humphrey | November 8, 2008 5:50 PM

everyone who didn't vote for obama was racist? WHAT?! could we stop with this ridiculous "everybody is racist if they don't support obama" BS?

and explain to me how you can say, in the very same article that obama is "the guy who believes that same-sex couples should all the same rights and responsibilities as opposite-sex couples" who just happens to have "opposition to marriage for same-sex couples."

Posted by jared | November 8, 2008 5:53 PM

I'm over the black/gay thing and I think Dan is reasonable now or was just misinterpreted at the beginning.

BUT, I came up with something else to nag about. Anti-gay measures passed by 2% in California, 6% in Arizona, 7% in Arkansas, and 12% in Florida.

You know what would make people realize that gay people aren't evil people and they can be responsible spouses and parents? If they actually knew about some...

I can tell you all about the two reality-show producers that wanted to do "Life With the Savages," or whatever. I turned both down cold because I would never do that to my kid.

Posted by jrrrl | November 8, 2008 5:59 PM

Was this based just on exit polls? I wouldn't be surprised if lots of new, and especially urban, voters participated in early voting, or voting-by-mail, or whatever they do in Cali. Those people would be missed in exit polls.

I honestly don't think that racism is a huge problem among queers. Not that it's nonexistent, but. . . I seriously, seriously doubt that very many gays wouldn't vote for Obama due to race.

I appreciate your diligence in being fair, though.

Posted by violet_dagrinder | November 8, 2008 6:10 PM


Uhh. . . I'm a fan of Dan's, but that said, I don't know if I believe that he's the guy to change the hearts and minds of conservative America. Just sayin'. LOL

Posted by violet_dagrinder | November 8, 2008 6:13 PM

Barak Obama "backs us on every other issue?" What about those issues that aren't about gay rights. Even though I'm gay, why does that mean gay rights has to be my top priority. I'm not so "deluded" as to think that the issue that directly affects me most is the most important issue to take into account with the fate of the country. And hell if my ultimate goal is equal rights to marriage, and Obama is only willing to give us the perks, well hell I'm going to be fighting for my rights with either candidate. If you were so concerned about Gay Rights above all else then you wouldn't have said that you preferred Obama winning over Prop 8 getting voted down. It's not fair to call those Kerry -> McCain voters "racist scum." There are other issues at hand other than gay rights. You're so ridiculous sometimes.

I'm finally realizing why I get so angry at the absurd things you say, because I think the sex/relationship advice is top notch. But I really shouldn't give a shit about what you have to say about any other issue. It would be like asking my dog what he thinks the best way to tie my shoes is.

Posted by DW | November 8, 2008 6:13 PM

When we lived in MI we had a gay neighbor who was devoutly Republican, and it didn't have to do with taxes. It had to do with guns. It shocked me. But he was originally from rural MI and voted on issues like guns and stuff. Odd. But hey. Que sera and all that jazz.

I'm not convinced that ALL the gays who voted against Obama did so b/c he was black. I think it's likely that many were Hillary supporters who couldn't move on.

Posted by Balt-O-Matt | November 8, 2008 6:19 PM

Yes and over 35 percent of all people in the U.S. (over 100 million people!) who were ELIGIBLE to vote chose to sit out this historic election.

Wage war on them, instead of the 200 African Americans in CA polled by CNN that voted for Prop 8.

Posted by Trevor | November 8, 2008 6:20 PM

Whoops. My bad. Only about 70 million eligible voters in the U.S. chose to not participate in the Nov. 4 Presidential election.

Posted by Trevor | November 8, 2008 6:25 PM

ooh, I know the kind of "homos" who might vote for McCain: those homos who don't ascribe to identity politics.

It is pretty funny hearing you dare project "racism" onto that 7%, since you've been handwringing about blacks for days on end.

Posted by AR | November 8, 2008 6:27 PM

I am afraid #4 is correct. There are more than a handful of racist gay men and lesbians out there. Most of those I have encountered have been baby boomers or older and I can only hope there are fewer racists in the younger generations of queer folk.
Just here in Seattle I have heard gay men use the "n" word or other derogatory language. I was also once rejected by a date because I had a Black boyfriend in the past.
You are totally right to call them scum and the community should disown them.

Posted by Old White Gay Guy | November 8, 2008 6:28 PM

I think it's really impossible to deny marital rights to same sex couples.

I've been reviewing some of the rights afforded to married couples, and it impinges on so many basic societal issues like health care, property and so on, that is must be ruled as Unconstitutional to deny them.

My own personal inclination is to do away with all these privileges entirely, because single people are denied them -- however, I realize society may not be ready for that.

Therefore, given that these privileges are in place for one type of couple, they cannot be denied for all types of couples.

It's just not legal. Now, if the Mormons or any religion want to deny a religious service to a same sex couple, then I would say, they can go ahead and do that. That is their jurisdiction, but really, I don't see why they are going to all this trouble as a religion to restrict civil rights that extend far beyond what I would see as the bounds of the marital rite.

Posted by John Bailo | November 8, 2008 6:29 PM

Dan, it's good to see you taking my advice to step back and think this over for a week before putting your foot any deeper into it. It's not as if this bandwagon is going to leave town without you, after all.

Posted by elenchos | November 8, 2008 6:34 PM

Dan, I think some non-political, non-Slog posting type gay people remembered that Bush got on TV in 2004 and announced he wanted a Constitutional Amendment to BAN gays from marrying. That riled them up to vote against Bush not for Kerry. They might also remember McCain opposed the move to write discrimination into the Constitution.

Yes, yes, I know in THIS election McCain backtracked and courted the anti-gay vote (although not in a big grandiose way like Bush did). However, for people who don't pay close attention and actually WANT to vote GOP for other stupid reasons...

However, I did notice a certain type of gay guy that just couldn't get excited about Obama like me...and I was baffled by it. Most, I'm happy to say, voted Obama and were crying along with me on Election night (I'm gay too). But I couldn't help but wonder about some underlying factors at play at how these normally non-political, white gay guys suddenly got fiercely political and loyal for a sixtysomething white woman, but never were quite feeling that love for Obama.

Posted by Jason | November 8, 2008 6:38 PM


You are gay. You are a racist. And you are scum! Go fuck yourself, you war-loving, position-changing, race-baiting piece of dogshit.

Posted by scum | November 8, 2008 6:41 PM

Crying on election night makes one a pathetic sap.

As DW said, just because one is gay doesn't mean you have to put gay issues at the top of your list.

Posted by AR | November 8, 2008 6:45 PM

PS: I also think many small-c conservatives of a certain age who just happen to also be gay could sense that McCain was not a holy-roller born again Christian out to send them to concentration camps. They could bring themselves to vote McCain....if not Bush. It is only 7%.

Posted by Jason | November 8, 2008 6:45 PM

Dan, first blacks and now gays.

Your the new Bill O'Reilly.

Posted by James | November 8, 2008 6:46 PM

what is the margin of error in these polls? and were they they done by the same pollster?
7% isn't a high number considering the limited info....
(this irrelevant post makes me wonder if dan savage is merely trying to make up for his earlier racist posts.... =)

Posted by justin | November 8, 2008 6:50 PM

Finally, someone who can keep a cool head and discuss this without flinging around hurtful accusations and childish name calling.

Posted by sam | November 8, 2008 6:52 PM

btw, a co-worker of mine is gay and latino. and he voted for kerry in 04, then mccain on tuesday. why? because he liked sarah palin, and disliked michelle obama.... haha....
let's not forget that gay people are still people.... meaning, they can still just be morons too....

Posted by justin | November 8, 2008 6:54 PM

@26 has a point.

Posted by Darcy | November 8, 2008 6:58 PM


no, your cowworker is a diva fanatic.

Posted by Bellevue Ave | November 8, 2008 6:58 PM

if you're looking for parties that are way more gay-friendly than the Democrats, you could have voted Green, Libertarian or for Nader.

How many times do you find the term "gay, lesbian, LGBT" etc. etc. In the Democratic Party Platform? Zero.

The Democratic Party uses minority, feminist and LGBT interest groups to gain power and promptly forgets them.

Posted by AR | November 8, 2008 7:02 PM

Yes, before we start pointing fingers (or, if we must, then at least while we do) whaddya say we work on cleaning up our own backyards and not hurling shit like this at each other:

Outreach, folks, not blame.

Posted by Andy Niable | November 8, 2008 7:12 PM

Whoa, what's with the crazy witch hunts popping up all over the Slog? I don't get it, is everyone really this insecure? I can understand being upset at the results in California but generalizing a single demographic and trying to project motivation on to them is ridiculous (especially considering Obama won). This post in particular smacks of a minor attempt to rationalize earlier posts concerning black folks and Prop 8. Neither the Prop 8 posts or this one serve a purpose other then engendering hate or, at the very least, a contrary attitude in those folks that the progressive voices here on Slog need to be working to win over.
I think a simple "if anyone on slog knows a person who is intolerant and does not understand how cruel it is to deny another human being basic rights, please go talk to that person and help them to see that it is cruel and wrong" would have been more effective.
I can also see how the boycott angle might be an effective act of protest (targeting those businesses which had open ties to the Yes on prop 8 campaign).
But generalizing and ranting about specific demographics within the United States because they voted contrary to a given view just seems like pointless bitching and results in needless alienation.

Posted by Windupbird | November 8, 2008 7:14 PM

Probably a lot of gay people are more into "protecting Israel, tax cuts, free trade, fighting terrorism, defeat Iran, etc" (pure bullshit) than marriage equality. That does not make them racists. I did not vote because I am not a citizen, but I would not have voted for Obama. Please don't take me wrong, I would not have voted for McCain either. I think they are not that different! Both will protect Israel and do nothing for Palestinians, both will continue the war in Iraq and send more troops to Afghanistan. Both will not do much for healthcare since they will keep supporting the insurance companies. Both voted for the FISA bill. Both voted for the bailout. Obama will give money to religious organizations. That's what killed it for me, just what this country needs: more fucking religion! Black people voted for Prop 8 because of religion, not because they are black.

We really need to work together and get a third major party that is really on the left. Do you people really think democrats are left? Please... we had a choice of right and far right in this election. Of course I am happy that Obama won, but people, do not expect anything from him. He already started disappointing me with Rahm Emmanuel as his chief of staff... ugh.

Dan, a gay person voting for McCain does not mean he/she is a racist.

Posted by Christos | November 8, 2008 7:35 PM

Windupbird, witchhunting is the American way of celebrating whenever a party's adherents believe they have a powerful champion in a position of great strength. This is getting good.

Posted by tomasyalba | November 8, 2008 7:42 PM


Good luck with that worn out old Nader rhetoric. You're going to need it.

Hey... Did you just say you wouldn't have voted for Obama but you're happy he won? Are you drunk?

Posted by elenchos | November 8, 2008 7:42 PM

@33 You're probably right, it's a whole lot of "Four legs good! Two legs bad!" but I'd say that's simply being human not being American.

Posted by Windupbird | November 8, 2008 7:53 PM

elenchos - does he have a point or not? Like I said, the Democratic Party really doesn't give two shits about any of the interest groups it purports to represent.

Posted by AR | November 8, 2008 8:07 PM

I am 30 yo gay asian man and I voted for the Green Party b/c I don't trust Obama about his promises after he voted for FISA and the bailouts. Tax cuts for middle class yeah great; looks like Bush's tax policy. It's like every freaking homo has to think alike and act alike like you Dan ? I detested the Republican party so I and others who voted for independent candidates are exercising our rights to vote who we think represent our values; whether they can win or lose is another matter. Last I check the U.S. is still a democracy.

Posted by Sulu | November 8, 2008 8:20 PM

professor griff was right when he said tha dntt

Posted by probably the most important point | November 8, 2008 8:21 PM

@32 You expressed it so well. Exactly what I wanted to say. I'm so sick of other homos looking at me like I'm crazy for not voting for their savior.

Posted by duwadi | November 8, 2008 8:26 PM


This argument is just rehashing the same comments, the same difficulties, and the same prejudices that have been betrayed (often by you, depressingly, and frighteningly by your readers) in your other prop 8 posts. I get that you're trying to temper your image here in this most recent post, but it's not helping.

Maybe this just shouldn't be your topic until you've learned and thought more about it. Why don't you call it quits with any further race/homophobia ideas until you've sat tight a bit, reflected, or gone to talk to some black political leaders around Cali (and noot just the ones inside the gay community)?

Please, don't just keep flailing here, it's hurtful and you're just being a forum for resentment and misinformation.

Posted by sniz | November 8, 2008 8:43 PM

down with the blacks!
down with the mormons!
down with the homos!

next group pls.

Posted by todd | November 8, 2008 8:43 PM


down with the breeders!
down with the muslims!
down with the pitbulls!

i luv grouping folks. i just wish we could split the groups further down. then it would more groups to hate.

Posted by todd | November 8, 2008 8:50 PM

Disclaimer: I know very little about statistics...

These percentages are just a breakdown of those who voted, not those who support a candidate in general. Sure there is something to be said for supporting someone enough, that you're willing to get off the couch and vote for them, but a vote not cast for Obama does not definitively equate to a vote cast in support of McCain. I think that should be considered somewhat. Given Obama's huge polling lead, particularly in liberal areas, isn't it possible more of his supporters stayed home than McCain's (especially it seems one doesn't become a gay Republican out of mere political laziness, you really have to commit)? Thus giving McCain a relative gain out of finite 100 percentage points. This seems particularly likely to happen given the Democrats already huge lead in gay voters, which isn't to say that share shouldn't be higher. In a sense it seems Obama's gay numbers had nowhere to go but down from Kerry's.

That being said, I'm sure racism factored into many people's decisions, whether they are gay or straight. I just would be interested in a more in-depth analysis of the statistics, just as a rush to judgment regarding the Prop 8 polling doesn't do anyone any favors.

I'd be more interested in seeing a raw number of gay voters for each candidate and what percentage of the larger gay community those raw numbers represent.

Posted by Stephen Carden | November 8, 2008 8:58 PM

I'm gay. I'm 40. I was raised by racists and I voted for the black guy.

In 2000 I wanted McCain and when he lost the nomination to Bush I ended up not voting.

In 2004 I was so disgusted with Bush and the war that I changed my registration to Democrat and voted for Kerry. I thought he was kind of a douche but I love Theresa.

I've been an Obama supporter since rumors first started that he was going to run for president. I said all along I'd be perfectly happy with Clinton but I truly wanted Obama.

This is the first election I picked a winner.

Posted by monkey | November 8, 2008 9:00 PM

ALERT! Eventually there will be civil equality, marriage and other wise for all Gay-Americans. Stay the course, walk with dignity, embrace your allies (Black Americans/White Americans/Latino Americans/Asian Americans/Martian Americans/ ALL Americans that love equality and dignity. Don't be like so many Americans that want it NOW! I WANT IT NOW! Stay the course, fight smart and fight hard.

Posted by Sargon Bighorn | November 8, 2008 9:09 PM

As long as we're pointing fingers and tossing disgust at overly-generalized groups (blacks, gays, etc) what about the whites?

A majority of whites have voted for the Republican in each the last 12 presidential elections.

Posted by a different lens | November 8, 2008 9:59 PM

Dan, I think the answer is "the ones who never got over Hillary losing the nomination"

Posted by mackro mackro | November 8, 2008 10:03 PM

what #4 said..
and said very well.

Posted by reverend dr dj riz | November 8, 2008 10:22 PM

In this election we had our first real oppurtunity to vote for someone that wasn't an old white guy.

People jus' won't cop to their racist views. Either you voted for Obama, or you're a racist. Pretty simple really...

Posted by Yelley | November 8, 2008 10:30 PM

When 25% of gays vote for Republicans, it is fine for Democrats and 'progressives' to rip on them. When 70% of blacks vote against gays, it makes the gays racist. Logical.

Posted by sean | November 8, 2008 11:09 PM

Gosh Dan you're such an outrage-a-holic for extrapolating and pontificating this bitterness over what is essentially water over-the-bridge statistical noise. So what if any lesbian, gay, bi, or transgender voted for McCain. It's their prerogative and you have to respect their choices just as you expect that others respect your choices. Debate them certainly. By all means, go for it. But don’t call your brothers and sisters racists and scum. There’s a lot of over factors that go into making the decision of choosing a president than our own minority group’s interests that you enumerated.
I always thought that diversity included the respect of others differing political dispositions - but I always seem to be wrong on that -- at least as far as The Stranger is concerned. It's such a pity. Because here it as AFTER the election and you have to nitpick on something to trash your own minority group. Why -- because it’s so vogue to be bitter. You're addicted to the adrenalin outrage gives you. You have to be bitter about something, even though we're all pretty much glad that Obama won; or if not, we're gracious about it and wish him the best. So chill.

Posted by raindrop | November 8, 2008 11:23 PM

"Differing political dispositions..." should not include racism.

Posted by Hal | November 8, 2008 11:35 PM

@ 49 - yeah, that's it! if we didn't vote for a person based on the color of his skin, we're racist.

you rule, dude. or, alternatively, fuck off.

Posted by AR | November 8, 2008 11:42 PM

Gee @49 "Either you voted for Obama, or you're a racist." - I voted for the Green Party whose Presidential nominee was a black woman; does that make me a racist ? Fck you.

Posted by sulu | November 8, 2008 11:45 PM

@52: Agreed. I didn't mean to imply that.

Posted by raindrop | November 8, 2008 11:47 PM

@52 And it didn't, so your whinning is irritating and dishonest. You apparently have very thin skin. I guess if you were gay or a women you would have developed thicker skin- I mean we can't turn on the radio without hearing the words faggot, bitch, and ho over and over. Thousands of times I've heard black men openly talk about women and gays the way the KKK once talked about them, and they didn't give a rats ass who was offened. Tell me about all the times you've heard gay white men or white women walking down the street saying n-word this and n-word that...
Yeah, I know, I'm racist for noticing this. Appartly the only people who aren't racist are people who 1) are oblivous 2) who pretend to be

Posted by sam | November 8, 2008 11:51 PM

Racial bias and blatant racism are indeed problems in the gay community in the same way and measure these problems are present in the broader society. Most gay organizations are staffed and led by white people, and most of these organizations are not even aware of the disparity in their representation of and outreach to LGBT people of color.

Dan, how many LGBT newspapers have a person of color as the Publisher or Editor-in-Chief?

Also, Dan, trying to balance your misunderstood words about homophobia among black voters with a broad generalization about racism among gay voters is a silly self-indulgence that brings no measure of balance or clarity to your position. You’ve only succeeded in muddling the expression of your perspective more.

A vote for a candidate other than Obama does not by default make an LGBT voter a racist.

Some voters are true liberals who voted for Nader because he best represents them. Some voters are socialists who voted for Brian Moore or Gloria La Riva. Some voters are loyal members of the Green Party and voted for Cynthia McKinney (Are you counting those votes for McKinney instead of Obama as “racist,” Dan?) Some voters sincerely believe in the Libertarian platform and voted for Barr.

Focus on finding and expanding common ground. Trying to find blame in exit poll data is not the most effective use of our limited time and resources.

What's done is done.

Lambda Legal and the ACLU could use some financial support in the fight to invalidate Prop 8.

Equality California needs help to extend its outreach to the communities of color.

Equal Rights Washington could use some help.

The Victory Fund could use some support and volunteers.

The energy that we give to anger could just as easily be given to fuel a passion for change.

Stop wasting time and energy moving in the wrong direction.

Move forward.

Be the change.

Posted by yawp | November 8, 2008 11:58 PM

how many LGBT newspapers have a person of color as the Publisher or Editor-in-Chief?

How many African American newspapers (Seattle's Medium, Amsteredam News, NOI's Final Call,NAACP newsletter, Rainbow Collition newspaper, etc)
have an openly gay publishers or Editor-in-Chief?

Ever notice that everyone has to jump through hoops to prove they are not racist. But AA's can be openly homophobic, sexist, anti-semetic, anti-asian, etc..... and still be the pillars in their community or even have the title "civil rights leader"? I didn't notice... cause I don't want to be called racist.

Posted by sam | November 9, 2008 12:42 AM

Am I the only one who suspects Dan is actually an Aries, and not a Libran? loose cannon a rama

Posted by airport hound patrol | November 9, 2008 1:03 AM

They voted form McCain because they didn't believe Obama. It is as simple as that.

Posted by Terry | November 9, 2008 6:55 AM

Leaving aside all of the (appropriate) questions above (and sure to follow) about your reliance on exit polls of small groups of people ---

A few days ago, you said, "I’ll eat my shorts if gay and lesbian voters went for McCain at anything approaching the rate that black voters went for Prop 8."

The obvious implication of this statement was that gay and lesbian voters would support Obama as an anti-racist gesture or on behalf of African Americans in some kind of identity politics quid pro quo. Your post here gives lie to that reductive (and, yes, racially charged) accounting: you make a very good case for Obama as the pro-gay candidate in the election and describe voting for Obama as within gay and lesbian self-interest, regardless of race. Now for most LGBT people I know, these issues are not actually the decisive ones (try healthcare, the war, jobs), but, yes, if the parties were in any way close on these issues, the GOP's anti-gay platform (and McCain's OCA fundraiser back in the day) would have made supporting McCain impossible. But we surely weren't supporting Obama as a form of payback for black No On 8 votes.

Posted by Stephanie | November 9, 2008 7:06 AM


You are missing one other thing. Groups like Log Cabin were PEPPERING the gay community with e-mails quoting Obama's comment of "I do not believe in Gay Marriage, I believe Marriage is between one man and one woman" Followed by claims that the two candidates positions on gay rights were exactly the same. Bush actively attacked us when he ran, McCain ran an idiotic campaign, but did not attack us specifically. So some fools out there undoubtedly believed the lie that they were both the same on gay issues. Log Cabin failed to mention that Obama sent a letter of support to the no on 8 campaign, while McCain sent one to the YES on 8 campaign. So before you decry racism, just remember. There was a large anti-Bush vote in 2004 brought on by Roves demonization of our community. That was missing this time. What I see happening now, is that accusations that gay anger is really racism will be used to prevent the black community from having the much needed self examination to determine where it's hatred and bigotry comes from.

Posted by cambel | November 9, 2008 7:24 AM

Let's not lose sight of the fact, too, that the percentage of GLBT folks voting for Obama was exceeded only by the percentages of African American (95%) and Jewish (78%) voters. That's an amazing thing.

Posted by Balt-O-Matt | November 9, 2008 8:02 AM

@62. What I see happening now, is that accusations that gay anger is really racism will be used to prevent the black community from having the much needed self examination to determine where it's hatred and bigotry comes from.

Unfortunately, this has happened, and it's incredibly unfortunate. I've noticed throughout these four threads, going back to "Black Homophobia," that the convenient "We're only 7% of the vote!" argument is used over and over, as if that addresses Dan's original point. It's a straw man response that takes the attention off of what Dan actually said, which is that homophobia is present in the African American community at disproportionate numbers, and it's a problem for all of us.

Dan didn't blame black people for Prop 8's passing. He pointed out the huge, glaring light that suddenly shone on the homophobia within the black community. Homophobia that we've all known was there (blacks and whites alike), but never have addressed.

Focusing on the fact that black people, specifically, didn't actually lose the election for us doesn't address Dan's point, because it never was his point. The point is that they would have lost the election for us if they could have. There is a painful and large problem of homophobia within the black community. It became obvious in all of its ugliness on Tuesday night. Dan pointed and said, "Look at that."

Responding with straw man fallacies won't change that. But it's sure easier than actually addressing the problem.

Posted by Tracy | November 9, 2008 8:11 AM

@ #59 Since we are talking about "isims" lets talk about the silly idea that the positions of some large rocks and gas giants at the time of our birth can tell us anything about our lives. Astrology is total bunk and sets up a way of pre-judging a person based on nothing but the arrangement of objects in the solar system. Informative article at

Posted by Heather | November 9, 2008 8:25 AM

Agreed with all the voices here who say: Stop. The. Blame. Game.

If there is one person, black white gay straight man woman trans asian queer whatever, here who believes they can honestly say that they have never said something that was hurtful or bigoted at least in its undertone, they are deluded. We breathe this shit in. We're not all "racists" but we're infected by racism. We're not all homophobes, but we're infected by homophobia. Likewise sexism. (And women can be infected by sexism, too. Etc.)

Dan, you did breathe that shit out. You did so NOT in simply discussing the concern about homophobia in the black community BUT in the way you did it, which was tinged by the racism we breathe in and out every day. That makes you human, not evil or "a racist."

I'm more interested in ending racism than in rooting out and ridiculing "racists." There's a difference. I'm also more interested in ending homophobia than in persecuting homophobes. Smacking "evil people" feels good, but does little to change things. Because really evil people, rather than just ignorant ones, are a minority.

We must educate those who can be educated about the bigotry in which they are steeped and passively breathing in, and watch for the infection in ourselves. When we see it, we should say "my bad," and move on. (Hint: you, Dan, should say "my bad.")

Posted by a lass | November 9, 2008 8:26 AM

we voted McKinney.

Obama has never helped us--from never marching in Chicago's parades or speaking out for us there, to refusing to have his pic taken with Newsom in SF, to his excessive "committed Christian" talk and plans to expand the discriminatory faith-based funding, to McClurkin and the other "ex-gays", to the "ex-gay" ministries his faith-based campaign committee ran, to his hiring of Doug Kmiec and others, to his recent silence when those pushing Prop.8 used his very words to pass it.

forget it.

Posted by amberglow | November 9, 2008 8:55 AM

Instant gratification takes too long!

Posted by monkey | November 9, 2008 8:57 AM

I knew a few fiftysomething white gay men here in Seattle who were Hillary supporters during the primary and- while they would never admit it---were racists. It was obvious in their shrill, shallow, defenses of Hillary and patronizing critiques of Obama. Sorry, but they are out there and an embarrassment to me during this election. They "identified" with a white woman and couldn't bring themselves to "identify" with a black man. These are low-information voters who vote based on trivial, stupid reasons ("Kerry looks goofy to me", "I want to have a beer with Bush") not issues. We are used to them in the straight world.

Posted by GayDumbVotersAreOutThereToo | November 9, 2008 9:06 AM

I have to agree with Dan. I heard many times from gay friends and family, particularly (but not solely) those from "red states," who stated simply that they just didn't feel the country was ready for a black president. To me, that's latent racism, but they all would deny being racist.

That said, I think we've seen the highest numbers we'll ever see again in the monolithic gay vote. Single-issue voting is kinda lame, and I think more queers are starting to realize that.

Posted by JeffB | November 9, 2008 9:12 AM

"But the 7% who voted Kerry in 2004 and McCain in 2008?"

Actually, the GOP only got 4% more of the gay vote - 23% in 2004 vs 27% in 2008. As you can see from the other posts, the other 3% went to other/no answer, for example McKinney(Green).

Obama's incoherent straddle (no on prop 8 but also no on marriage equality) is probably for now the only position a Democrat can take to both win the primary and the general. And the reason he gave (his religion) is precisely the obstacle everybody here has been saying is at the heart of the problem.

I'd say one of the lessons here is to make sure that the attempt to overturn No on 8 doesn't happen in 2012, when Obama will be on the ballot again.

Posted by chicagogaydude | November 9, 2008 9:19 AM

I meant overturn Prop 8.

Posted by chicagogaydude | November 9, 2008 9:23 AM

How could you possibly be only discovering that maybe there are white gay male racists when you come from the Midwest, live in Seattle and at your age? I have seen and heard gay white male racists in what seems like every gay public social setting I've ever been in and way too many private ones. I thought it was common knowledge that gay white male racists are alive and well and everywhere in this country.

I was talking to a bi black friend in Minnesota last night and she and her family and friends know all about the blame-the-blacks garbage going on right now, so this idiocy seems to have a lot of traction and range. Her reaction? Not one little bit of surprise. I was so ashamed for you.

Your attempts to make up for what you've written are not working. I don't know if you can make it worse now, but you're not making it better.

I don't know how you can avoid talking about race for the next four years, but, for the sake of the LGBT community, you apparently must absolutely avoid talking about race for the next four years.

We all see people digging up quotes from you in such obscure places as comments posts buried in long-dead threads. None of this stuff is ever going away. Please stop adding to it.

And to all the people who think that civil rights are a side order on the menu of democracy, that equality is something that comes after war and taxes, that demanding that everyone be treated as human is single-issue voting -- you all scare the shit out of me.

Posted by whatevenevermind | November 9, 2008 9:39 AM

Your attempts to make up for what you've written are not working.

I may be wrong, but I don't think that is the point of this post. He's not trying to make up for anything. He's highlighting something that he said earlier: African American homophobia is a bigger problem for gays than gay racism is for African Americans.

African Americans who voted against gay rights: 70%
Gays who voted for the white homophobe: 23%
Gays who voted third party: 3%
Gays who "voted against the black guy": 4%
Gays who voted for the black, almost-perfect-on-gay-issues guy: 70%

Conclusion: Dan doesn't have to eat his shorts.

Posted by Tracy | November 9, 2008 10:08 AM

@ #73: I'm as disappointed as anyone that Prop 8 passed, but let's keep things in perspective. Californians enjoy one of the most comprehensive and fair domestic partnership laws in the land. As such, the Prop 8 debate was less about affording equal benefits and more about jumping that last hurdle from "separate-but-equal" status to full equality in name as well as in practice. This is an important hurdle, but in the panoply of issues facing this country it is not necessarily the most important. This is why I am able to turn a blind eye to Obama's lukewarm commitment to marriage equality. Social progress and change do not happen overnight, and if you look at the long game, we are bound to lose some yardage or give up some points in the struggle. History is on our side, and our efforts should be focused on preventing additional erosion of rights we've won, and sometimes that means that pressing the case for full equality may take a little longer than we'd all hoped. But change is a'coming.

Posted by JeffB | November 9, 2008 10:10 AM

Tracy: Those numbers are meaningless because the two votes are not comparable. Selecting a president is not a single-issue vote, there were dozens of reasons to choose Obama that indicated nothing but voting in your own self-interest.

And more to the point, framing this as some sort of battle of competing oppressions just makes no sense, and is the least productive approach imaginable if we really want to address these problems. Guaranteed to do nothing but keep us sidetracked and divided.

Posted by Jay | November 9, 2008 10:50 AM

@76. It wasn't in my "best interest" to vote for Obama. But it would have been in my worst interest to vote for McCain.

I wasn't trying to frame this as competing oppressions. And, I might be full of shit about Dan's point anyway. It's just the way I saw it in context to earlier threads.

I don't want to be divided. I don't want to be sidetracked. I don't know what the most productive approach to black homophobia is, honestly, because up to now we've tried nothing. If I was to guess, though, I think that honesty, even brutal honesty, is better than timid, white guilt, silence. Or coddling. Or excusing.

For the record, I don't blame black people (or any minority) for Prop 8 not passing. Religious intolerance broke the back of Prop 8. But it seems to me that shining a light on large groups (i.e., voting blocks) who are religiously intolerant on gay issues is a good first step, and I don't just mean African Americans.

Posted by Tracy | November 9, 2008 11:20 AM

I'm late to the party. I appreciate your good work and honest prop8 post-mortem.

My $0.02: the coincidence of black skin and yes votes was correlative. The coincidence of black skin and religion is correlative. The coincidence of religion and yes votes was highly causative and was a fuckload more than 70%.

You're spot on to say we must understand the problem to solve it- that problem is religion.

Remember how Christians used to say that God wanted them to have slaves, Leviticus 25:44-46, Exodus 21:25, 1 Timiothy 6:1? Now Christians have to pretend that their god didn't really mean it: an impressive feat of imagination for all those literal-interp people. And so must occur with Leviticus 18:22, 20:13, and 1 Corinthians 6:9-10.

Posted by lesliesage | November 9, 2008 11:21 AM

For the record, I don't blame black people (or any minority) for Prop 8 not passing. Religious intolerance broke the back of Prop 8.

Oh good lord, I suck so badly. Please read the above nonsense this way:

"For the record, I don't blame black people (or any minority) for Prop 8 passing. Religious intolerance broke the back of NoOnProp 8.


Posted by Tracy | November 9, 2008 11:27 AM

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Posted by Pit Bull in Everett | November 9, 2008 1:08 PM

In case you did not know...And this has nothing to do with your sexuality or whatnot, this is the ugly of ugliest politics in play, as well as a theological war in which homosexuals are both pawns and operatives.
Christian Orthodoxy VS. Talmudic Judaism and political Zionism. First, chew on this short clip of Dave Chapelle talking to Oprah Winfrey, it helps outline what i am referring to.
Simply put, Jews push homosexuality on the gentiles.
Now, what percentage of homosexuals are Jewish, and what percentage of these Jewish homosexuals voted for Barack Obama? Are you Jewish Mr. Savage? This isnt an accusation, merely an inquisition.

Posted by Shootingsparks | November 9, 2008 1:41 PM

Hey Clifford Webb aka Shootingsparks (before you get paranoid the I found out your name through the Mossad, I should note, your real name is listed on your blog link) I love your photo. MMMM... goood. My gay-dar kinda went off when I saw your photo. Are you gay, Mr Webb? This isn't an accusation, merely an inquisition.

Posted by Julie M. | November 9, 2008 2:02 PM

Gay PUMA's

Posted by DJSauvage | November 9, 2008 2:23 PM

I was unable to open your youtube link Cliff.
It made me realize you are right- If the Zionists have made me unable to access Youtube, what CAN'T they control?
In the meanwhile I will have to just wonder what meaningful insight into Zionists Dave Chapelle revealed on Oprah.

Posted by Julie M. | November 9, 2008 2:24 PM

I'm gay and my lesbian sister and her partner may have voted against Obama--or at least not for him. My sister admitted on many occasions that she was bitter over Obama beating out her "candidate with a vagina" (her words, not mine) in the primary, even though she had to admit that Obama himself was not sexist. Go figure! She did hate Palin, though.

Posted by ThomasG | November 9, 2008 3:47 PM

Hey, Shootingsparks (81): conspiracy theorists are almost as stupid as religious people, but have the endearing quality of valuing rational thought. They're just really, really bad at it.

Aww, they try so hard! It must feel really special to "know" something that no one else does. I can't imagine what it'd be like to live life valuing analytical thought, but to be completely unable to grasp the real world. Must be lonely. Need a hug?

Posted by lesliesage | November 10, 2008 1:40 AM

(1) PLEASE take a stats class. The idea of comparative analysis on percentages of populations of 2004 and 2008 is like comparing apples to dragons. The ELECTORATE was LARGER in 2008, which could account for a signficant change in the percentage. Additionally, there may be a distinction in self-identification (i.e. individuals were more likely to divulge their sexual orientation in '04 compared to '08). This statistical interpretation you set up is about as true as to oft-quoted (and incorrect) stat that half of marriages end in divorce (the truth is this: for every 2 couples that get married in a given year, one couple gets divorced; saying "half of marriages end in divorce" only works if its a soap opera where people change partners every year)

2 Even though I will freely call you a racist for your comments about African Americans in Cally (which were unfounded), I'm sorry, but I cannot call any single person who voted for McCain a racist JUST BECAUSE they voted for him! Please! For several people, who they insert tab A into (or how it is inserted into them) is not definite guidance for how to vote! Some people who are BROKE are voting with their pocketbooks, some people who have relatives in WAR are voting with their perception of patriotism, some people who are RICH are voting for the dude who isn't going to tax them any heavier than they are getting taxed! That has nothing to do with Obama being Black, green, or polka-dotted! Who cares if they are gay????!!???

As a Black man, one who has tried to push the idea of equality, I think I've levelled the "racist" term at 5 people (personally) in 33 years. Three of those people were Black (and racists against Whites or Asians). I threw it out on the Slog a couple of days ago, but I wouldn't dare automatically say "if you didn't vote for Obama, you're a raging racist".

That's just stupid. It's throwing yet ANOTHER group under the bus, all obviously to distract from the damage done over the past few days.

I think that's what they call "sucker ball".

Posted by hyperkind | November 10, 2008 7:20 AM

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