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1

We won't support spine-less NO-Bama and will re-defeat him in November!!!

Posted by clintonsarmy | August 4, 2008 12:51 PM
2


When Democrats play the game Republican-style, they lose.

They're just not good enough at it. Not evil enough.

I'm disappointed Dan that you're actually calling for more lies, deception, and Karl Rove type tactics.

It's disgusting no matter who is doing it.

You want to further destroy the Constitution? The Justice Department? Sure sounds like it.

Posted by disappointed | August 4, 2008 1:00 PM
3

Seen the weird new McCain ad? Its right smack dab in the middle of his site....check it.

Posted by Jeremy from Seattle | August 4, 2008 1:00 PM
4

dan, can you just pre-post clintonsarmy's cut & paste drivel and get it over with?

obama has a strategy. don't let mccain's wild swings scare you. chicago knows how to fight.

Posted by max solomon | August 4, 2008 1:01 PM
5

Hillary is a first-class dirty punch thrower, and you all hated her for it. You supported Obama because he's above that. So be careful what you wish for.

Posted by still | August 4, 2008 1:01 PM
6

Not to defend Dan but for those of you who think the Dems have used Rovian tactics in a general election can you provide an example since the 1964 election?

And the Primary IS FUCKING OVER!!! And that means NEW CAMPAIGN RULES!! Obama is starting to go down the road Kerry went down by not showing backbone and ATTACKING McCain. If he doesn't do it soon and strategically he will loose in November.

Posted by Cato the Younger Younger | August 4, 2008 1:05 PM
7

Fuck yeah.

when Dems hold back they lose.

Besides age the Dem attack should make it clear they the GOP are all a bunch of power hungry traitors who sell us out for money and oil and are congenital liars.


Attacking McCain's age is just the start of it. He should be attacked as part of a corupt value system furn byt he right wing and the GOP, that is unAmerican and harmful and evil.

Posted by Pc | August 4, 2008 1:10 PM
8

@2
are you insane?

"disappointed Dan that you're actually calling for more lies, deception, and Karl Rove type tactics. It's disgusting no matter who is doing it."

No it's not disgusting when you are attacking and efining the opponent with the truth and not lies.

Rovian tactics include both the attack and the lies. No one is advocating that OBama tell lies. Only that he tell the truth:

McCain and the GOP with their smaller govt militarism and corrupting the constitution are a bunch of war hungry evil power grabbers who will sell our economic future to get profits for their corporate and oil company masters, leaving the USA and its ideals in tatters. They are cowards, traitors and liars and un-American.

Where's the lie in that??

"

Posted by PC | August 4, 2008 1:14 PM
9

There should be a viral email campaign. The subjects lines should all be pro-McCain, but then link to these videos. Send them to all the grandmas and Reagan-worshipers.

Subject: John McCain is a TRUE PATROIT!!!1!

Link: McCain stuttering and stammering, cut with other clips of him saying exactly the opposite of what he's saying now.

Posted by JC | August 4, 2008 1:19 PM
10

"Americans like to see a little ruthlessness from their leaders."

This is true, despite the fact that so many of us liberals have a hard time accepting it.

Posted by Hernandez | August 4, 2008 1:21 PM
11

Yeah, fighting dirty is only wrong when the bad guys do it.

Posted by Rottin' in Denmark | August 4, 2008 1:25 PM
12

what everyone is missing is the Left/Right double standard that exists in this country. Right wingers can do and say anything, and the country regards them as true patriots. Liberals have to prove over and over that they aren't fucking commies, and the country regards them as fucking commies.

Example? Clinton got a blow job, lied about it and was IMPEACHED! Bush lied about the absolute necessity to invade a country (among about 1000 other things), and got RE-ELECTED.

So, this idea that everything is equal and Obama should fight fire with fire is absurd. His (and our) only hope is to appeal as best he can to the millions of libs that can't be bothered to vote. Becasue each and every old conservative dick in the country isn't staying home, that's for fucking sure.

Posted by Mike in MO | August 4, 2008 1:27 PM
13

I mean to include a line about McCain's attacks so far being based on lies and distortions -- and he's even been called on it by his friends/rimslaves in the traditional media. And it hasn't hurt him, it's helped him.

Obama by attacking McCain on age and his policies is going after totally legit stuff in comparison to the shit McCain is throwing at Obama.

Posted by Dan Savage | August 4, 2008 1:33 PM
14

While I totally agree with defending yourself against spurious attacks, I think the idea of using equally spurious attacks on your opponent is disgusting.

Winning at all costs is no way to win. If we are dumb enough as a society to elect someone without considering the merits of their platform, then we deserve what we get.

And what are we all so worked up about anyway? Like Bill Clinton was that great. I know, I know. SCOTUS justices, federal bench, et al. But many of the most liberal justices were appointed by Republicans...

Just saying that when we stoop to their level, we lose part of ourselves along the way...

Posted by fluteprof | August 4, 2008 1:46 PM
15

@ 13: Exactly. And guess who the American people will believe?

Posted by Mike in MO | August 4, 2008 1:47 PM
16

Obama has said he won't stoop to such tactics. We have to hope the lefty 527's will step in and do the dirty work.

Posted by neo-realist | August 4, 2008 2:13 PM
17

Those aren't dirty punches - those are knees in the groin while smiling and shaking hands.

Posted by Will in Seattle | August 4, 2008 2:23 PM
18

"McCain is throwing punches—dirty punches—and he’s landing them."

He is...?

Posted by bluh? | August 4, 2008 2:24 PM
19

Clinton's attacks were egregious because, like McCain's, they were either demonstrably false or grossly distorted. There's nothing immoral about going negative if you're telling the truth. Until Democrats learn this, they will continue to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Those of you seeking to take the philosophical high road should stay out of politics, and perhaps any other field where critical thinking is necessary.

Posted by Furcifer | August 4, 2008 2:30 PM
20

Obama can't win in August, no matter what he does. He doesn't want to peak too soon. Wait till after the convention, and see how hard he hits then, when people are paying attention and it counts. But no matter how hard he hits, he can't win the damn thing until November. So practice your patience, everyone.

Posted by Erica Peters | August 4, 2008 2:39 PM
21

I agree with you wholeheartedly. I was so disappointed by what happened to Kerry (who, admittedly, just didn't inspire me much anyways), and therefore am frightened it will happen to Obama too (who does inspire me).

I cling to the hope that Obama's campaign has proven themselves to have a stronger grasp of the big picture than the 24-hour news cycle talking heads are willing (or able) to acknowledge -- in the end it's math, just like the proportional delegate count was math when he was battling Clinton. He knew he was going to win a long time before he did.

There's this, an electoral map showing, at this moment, a rather decisive electoral lead for Obama, which is encouraging, right?:

http://www.pollster.com/polls/2008president/

And yet. I don't want my guy to win on a technicality. I want him to win decisively, and want him to dominate the election and fuck up McCain every time he's swiped. I agree, Dan. I want him to take down this smug old career politician.

Posted by matt | August 4, 2008 2:43 PM
22

Didn't old turd blossom blow the '06 election and, you know, retire in disgrace to be a commentator on Fox News? Is this a recipe for credibility?

Posted by FRUITCAKEpuppet | August 4, 2008 4:18 PM
23

Why would anyone take political advice from Andrew Sullivan? It boggles the mind. It's sweet that you pimp out your friend, I guess, but you must be the last person on the planet who actually takes what he says seriously.

Posted by whatevernevermind | August 4, 2008 4:32 PM
24

There's a double standard, and liberals have to fight mean, but smart. Obama's smart, the question is whether he's mean.

The problem with using Rovian tactics aside from their dishonesty and what they do to the body politic is that coming from Democrats, it's not smart politics. You run a fear-based campaign, and you're tied to a fear-based government. Any successful Democrat has to bring and keep the liberals and moderates on board by emphasizing the common good, while cutting down conservatives by calling them out as the extremists they are. That's what Bill Clinton did, and it's what Obama will have to do to win and govern. All that triangulating bullshit from Clinton isn't necessary to win, and in fact doomed the effectiveness of his presidency. The problem with Dukakis/Gore/Kerry is that they tried the triangulation without Clinton's personality. Obama might have the personality but he's better off finding a way to punch the conservatives in the gut while holding a smile and making them look like the bad guys.

Posted by Cascadian | August 4, 2008 4:45 PM
25

My dream ad would look more like GW Bush morphing into Cheney, and then into McCain over a soundtrack that lays out what a disaster the last 8 years have been and how McCain offers the exact same failed agenda, but other than that I agree with Dam 100%.

The time to hit back hard was yesterday - positive institutional-style ads may help push Obama's numbers up, but he also needs to push McCain's numbers down. Obama can do that without using ageist dog whistle tactics, etc. by just spending some money to show us all the gaffe-prone, factually-challenged McCain that the mainstream media won't.

Posted by Mr. X | August 4, 2008 5:20 PM
26

The problem is, and as Savage so abundantly demonstrates on Slog, when libs try to be tough they just squeal and throw scratches and girly punches. Wingnuts know how to fight. Moonbats don't. It's just silly to watch when you try. As a liberal I've long resigned the sucker punching and kidney shots to the right, it's up to the poet not the warrior to draw in the voters. If Obama goes Rove he loses. Quick and big. McCain is twice the alley fighter he is. Just like Glenn Beck could drop Savage with a sneer.

Stick to what you know.

Posted by Bob | August 4, 2008 5:36 PM
27

being tough, ruthless and critical is not dirty fighting ala hrc. and yes, i'm sure obama and his team are smart enough to engage in such when the time is right. have some faith, dan.

Posted by ellarosa | August 4, 2008 8:07 PM
28

No, Dan. No. How a candidate will be as president is reflected in how he runs his campaign. I'm not voting for anyone who will run his campaign like the asshole in office now. This is probably your worst since the Iraq War endorsement. Just, no.

Posted by Andy | August 5, 2008 12:35 AM
29

@28,

Um, this is orders of magnitude different than endorsing what was obviously an ill-advised and illegal war.

And if Obama doesn't use some of his paid media to tie McCain to Shrub at the hip, you can look forward to yet another illegal war under McCain, and Iran would make Iraq look like a cakewalk.

The whole "negative campaigning doesn't work meme" is just wishful thinking. Shit, even in oh-so-civil Seattle negative campaigning gave you Tim Burgess (and David Della before him, and Heidi Wills before him).

It's not like Obama is 20 points up and can stay above the fray - he's in the mid-40's, which means he HAS to drive McCain's negatives up. Period.

Besides, highlighting McCain's sorry record isn't negative campaigning, it's a public service.

Posted by Mr. X | August 5, 2008 5:50 AM

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