Savage Love Savage Love Letter of the Day
posted by on August 13 at 10:35 AM
This just in:
I know you usually get mail about the sex lives of your readers (what with being a “sex advice columnist” and all) but I have a problem that has nothing to do with mine and my wife’s sex life. I have a parenting problem, and given that you are a fellow parent and may have had to deal with these kinds of ethical issues, I’m hoping you have some insight.My brother is a social conservative, something that makes holidays interesting given that I’m a liberal, and a politically involved liberal at that. I can’t change him, but I’m disturbed because his son, who we’ll call George, is thirteen years old and has taken on many of his dad’s more intolerant characteristics. For instance, whenever I suggest that my toddler age son could have a girlfriend or a boyfriend when he grows up, George says he can’t believe I’d let him have a boyfriend, because “being gay is just wrong.” He also uses the word “gay” as a pejorative, as in “that’s so gay.” George takes every possible opportunity to let us know he thinks homosexuality is wrong and dirty.
George loves my son, and my son clearly thinks the world of George. So I have two questions.
1) Do you have any suggestions as to how to convince a thirteen year old boy that homosexuality is ok, or at least that he shouldn’t go around talking about how wrong it is even if he holds that opinion? I have no parental authority over him here, and for obvious reasons my brother won’t exercise it on my behalf.
2) Is there an ethical problem with me trying to convince George to adopt my values, in spite of my brother’s clear intention to raise his son with “his values”? Or, put another way, does my trying to convince George without my brother’s permission give my brother license to use words like “fag” in front of my son without my permission?
Advancing Liberalism In Youth
My quickly dashed off response:
Don’t be such a liberal pussy—you’re getting smacked around by a 13 year-old boybigot, ALIY. For christ’s sake! It’s time to stop wringing your fucking hands and start wringing the little bastard’s neck.
Your nephew certainly feels free to share his opinions with you—great. kids have a right to express themselves. But you are an adult—HELLO—and you have a right to share your opinions with him too. And you can share them every bit as bluntly. “Being gay is just wrong,” says the nephew. “You’re just wrong, you little shit,” says the uncle. (That’s how my uncles addressed me.) Then tell his little punk ass to go read a book, learn something about the subject, and maybe talk to an actual real live gay person before he opens his fool mouth to you again on the subject.
Fathers, of course, are free—sadly—to teach their sons whatever ridiculous bullshit they care to. I’m teaching my son, for instance, that theory of gravity is just a theory and that invisible wads of magic chewing gum hold everything down. Your brother, however, can’t expect you to forever censor yourself around his misinformed, opinionated son to protect the kid from realization that there are other points of view and that maybe—just maybe—what he learned at home is wrong. So put your brother on notice: If his son is going to share his opinions—his father’s opinions, but whatever—with adults who disagree with him, then your nephew is going to get into arguments with adults, arguments that—with you, at least—he will lose.
And if your brother expects you to STFU about your views on homosexuality around his kid, you have a right to demand that he and his son both STFU about their POVs on homosexuality around YOUR kid, who might—the chance is small, but there’s a chance—grow up to be gay.
Your nephew, of course, might be gay himself. I’d add, “Here’s hoping the little shit is,” but odds are good that your nephew will grow up to be one very messy gay adult, considering the bullshit that his dad has pounded into his head. We’ve got enough messy gay men lurking in the shrubbery and don’t need anymore.
Thanks, Dan - this is fantastic. It's a little dicey when the kids aren't related to you by blood, and their weird fundie family is sitting right there, and the kid's talking about how great a Huckabee administration would be . . . but yeah, this is a pretty awesome response.
10 bucks says the nephew is gay.
We Gravity Truthers meet every second Thursday at the Ballard Denny's, Dan. Glad to have you on board.
Just start buying that kid gay porn for Christmas.
dan, i have never agreed with you more.
we would have also accepted "liberal vagina"
@2 - And $20 says the brother is gay
Hey Dan,
I was that "little shit" when I was around 12. One day I said something along the lines of "ugh...gay people are so gross" to my best friend in front of his dad. His dad just gently replied, "I don't think they are gross at all. They are just different and there is nothing wrong or gross about being different."
I will never forget that moment. Although I didn't stop being a little shit until I was 19, that comment gave me hope on the many nights that I lied awake trying to make myself straight by repeating over and over in my head, "I like girls", "Girls are hot", "I like boobs" that if I didn't succeed there was at least one person out there who wouldn't think I was gross or wrong.
ALIY, please do the same for your nephew. And anyone else in a similar situation, please please please speak up. I can not explain how much of a struggle it can be to grow up sorrounded by people who are homophobic- when you are 13 it can cause you to think the whole straight world is, and nothing can crack that image like having a straight adult tell you point blank that they are ok with gay people.
Johnny
Johnny
Jesus H. Motherfucking Christ! (Oh, and right on, Dan).
If any of my son's cousins (he has five) said anything like that to him, the cousin would get an *immediate* verbal ream-out, followed by my dragging him to his father (my brother) and totally reaming out the brother as well.
Let me repeat myself, to the father of the young kid in this story: Jesus H. Motherfucking Christ, if you cannot protect your child from a 13-year-old jerk, how the hell are you going to help him through next fifteen years!
Grow a set, man!
(Background: my son, aged 8, was bullied in school this year by a pack of four little shits who used the "that's so gay" trope on him. When I found out, I spent a full day calming down; if I had gone over the parents' homes of the little bullies I would literally have broken heads. Then I took it to the school and cleared the thing up and made sure that my son would speak to me earlier, the next time something like this a happened.)
Really, I've got to on about this. I was ready to physically assault other adults about mere name-calling, simply because as a father my first instinct is to PROTECT MY CHILD! Christ, are you a father or a . . .? I don't have a word . . .
I've got my fingers crossed that Dan will write a book about parenting. Please, Dan?
http://www.amazon.com/Kid-Happened-Boyfriend-Decided-Pregnant/dp/0452281768/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218650945&sr=8-2
And
http://www.amazon.com/Commitment-Love-Sex-Marriage-Family/dp/0452287634/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218650945&sr=8-1
I think I'm going to get all existential n'shit on my kid.
Actually, though, gravity is a Law.
Dan, I think you have a second calling.
Uh, fnarf, I think Rachel was being sarcastic.
Did everyone turn off their sarcasm detectors today?
Why not invite a gay person to dinner when your brother and nephew are there in your house. Then admonish them if either is impolite to your guest. First, let the gay person know what's up though.
@16: I can just hear that pitch:
"Hi there, gay guy I know. Since you're all, like gay and stuff, I'd like to invite you over to dinner at my place so you can run interference for me with my homophobic brother and his Stockholm-syndrome kid. See you at 6:30?"
@8 beautifully said. I remember the moment someone I respected said something similar and changed my world too.
Sooooooo, the other day my 12 year old Grand Nephew refered to something as "so gay."
I didn't know at the time how to respond, so I didn't, and I changed the topic.
Am I a bad person?????
Johnny @8,
The opposite is equally true.
When I was around 12 or 13, most adults in my sphere were silent on the issue of gays. Then one day a woman who was a family friend and member of our church made a nasty remark about "queers" in front of me and my friends. At that stage of my life, it scared the shit out of me, and I still remember it clearly over 30 years later. That one comment probably did more to keep me in the closet than just about anything else. For a few years anyway.
Words from certain people can have a profound effect on kids that age.
Yes, Keekee, you ARE a bad person.
@17: He'd better well be supplying the fuckin' beer.
I would accept that invite in a heartbeat, Greg.
That original letter could have been written by The Uptight Seattleite.
Why are liberals, by and large, such pussies? (See also: Harry Reid, John Kerry, Jimmy Carter, etc...)
sad but true..
@16..many many times in the course of my short life i've been included in familial activities because i'm black and gay. i suppose it's the flip side of the coin that fosters racism and homophobia- a kind of hyper inclusion that's pretty uncomfortable. it's mostly parents that do the asking.. very very ill-equipped parents at that. some people really don't have the words or temerity to address the topic spot on ( and many other topics as well )and many many people don't have a wide inclusive social circle. i happen to have one that includes conservative people and i've lived in small towns where it turns out i'm the only african american or gay person these parents have ever befriended.
it's a very uncomfortable place to be , but at the same time i feel compelled to honor the attempt that many parents make to make their kids better than themselves.
and like others here, my life changed when a friend of my mother took me aside after she heard me talking smack about someone and said to me.. 'i think the reason you say bad things about people is you don't really like yourself. which is very sad to me because i think you're a lovely boy.do you think your'e a lovely boy ? ' and i replied 'no'. she continue ' and that's why you're sad. and that's why you make other people sad..including your mom'i was 13
my mother never knew that this conversation occurred until a few years ago when her friend passed and i told her.
sometimes it takes a village...
So, "that's so gay" is offensive, but Stranger staffers have no problem using "that's so retarded."
Interesting values.
It's too late to still be offended by "that's so gay". It's mainstream, get over it. I started out using it ironically (since I am "so gay" myself), but it just kinda works well, so I use it whenever needed.
The whole phrase has such a complicated meaning. And besides, the 13-year-old of today is the hipster of tomorrow. "Gay" will be riding all over the euphemism/dysphemism treadmill/rollercoaster. Let me be the first(?) to suggest that a decade from now, "that's so gay" will mean "that's kinda awesome", at least among the Hipsters of Tomorrow.
@13: Gravity is actually a social construct.
http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/sokal/transgress_v2/transgress_v2_singlefile.html
i know gay people who say "that's so gay". because some things ARE gay. like mazda miatas.
I seem to recall Dan saying in one of his columns that saying stuff like "that's so gay" isn't right, but it's not a huge fucking deal.
Unless they really hate gays.
Just backhand the little whelp and tell him you'll have none of that attitude in your house, and that his father was a fuckin' pansy growing up, himself.
(sarcasm on)
I don't have any messy gay men lurking in my shrubbery. Are they a new status symbol? Should I get some?
(sarcasm off)
i agree with 9: grow a set, you wussbag! why can't those to the left of center be more assertive? is it REALLY so in conflict with being to the left of center?
Of course the "messy gay men lurking in the shrubbery" are married... to women.
Jesus Christ. Have you never heard of assertive. Where I come from, the person who's house it is makes the rules. Therefore, if your nephew is using the word "fag" in your home, you tell him that that word is offensive and wrong and not permitted in your home and he can either shut up or leave. Back it up, if his father doesn't back you up, tell them to leave. And if you are at their house and its said, YOU get up and leave. Simple pimple.
@26: it's not OK to say "That's so gay" because nobody CHOOSES to be gay. DUH.
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