Then what are you afraid of? Why not vote on it?

(Before you beat me up, I'll say that I'm in favor of banning plastic bags, and I don't live in King County.)

And just in case anyone had questions about where the no-bag-fee people are getting their funding, just check out the nice sleuthing by Blogging Georgetown:

http://www.blogginggeorgetown.com/2008/08/chemical-industry-pushes-initiative-to.html

And sorry for not making that a pretty embed.

It just goes to show, the real grassroots work was done getting the council to pass this awesome legislation. Now it's the same old same old of the moneyed interests getting into the muck of things and spinning it as fair play.

Thanks for covering this, Dominic, it's always frustrating for industry fronts to get a free pass from much of the mainstream media.

Regardless of the merits of the bag tax, it's specious to say "we've had this debate" just because a handful of boobs with infinite spare time flapped their lips at a council hearing. Zero percent of the worthwhile population of this city had a voice there. Now, if you want to argue in favor of representative government, whereby people count on their representatives to make these kinds of decision for them, go ahead; but don't pretend that any freakshow in council chambers is debate. Or a vote.

And no, I'm not signing it.

Naw, let's vote on it four or five times until the people with the money wear us all down, and win.

I wonder if people would stick with the paying-for-bags thing if they realizes some stores actually PAY YOU for bringing in re-usable bags for your shopping. I bought 4 re-usable bags, and they've all been paid for now by using them at a store that pays me 4 cents per re-usable bag use.

COMMENT DELETED: Off-Topic/Spam

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@4, You got it, Cogsy -- it's THE SEATTLE WAY!!!

Fnarf @3) I say we've had this debate because almost every local columnist has weighed in, nearly every Seattle blog has written about it, a bunch of op-eds have been printed, newspapers have written editorials, the city council has debated it, and there was a big public hearing to boot. Before we run an initiative, we should give it some time to figure out if the winning side of the debate was right.

This bullshit drives me crazy. I love how money grubbing industry lobby groups like the Washington Food Industry (backed by the American Chemistry Council) hires hip kids like the one shown above to smile, flash a peace sign and scam us, lie to us and trick us into playing their game, when we've already made our decision. Listen, y'all. I'm all for voting, every vote counts, let the people have their voice, etc., etc. That's not what this is about.

But, if these jackasses get their signatures (and they will if they're paying hotties like Mr. Peace Sign), they will pump tons of money into misinformation campaigns and brainwash Seattlites into voting against something that will be beneficial to all of us.

Do NOT sign this petition! These fools don't give a shit about Seattle and our "vote". All they care about is perpetuating the disposable culture that is choking all of us while fattening their wallets. Are you kidding me? We're smarter than this, people.

I am wondering how long this Council and Voters ignoring each other thing can go on?

Check out this article on the issue

http://westseattleblog.com/blog/?p=9724

Oh yeah, and Fnarf @ #3 - I'm not an actual boob, although I do have two of them, and I've been told they're quite nice. As for all this infinite time? Are you fucking kidding me? We do this because we care about it, we take time off work at our low-ass paying jobs and stay up until 2am working on this shit because we want to see some change around here. If you're voice wasn't heard, it wasn't because noone asked you, it's because you didn't care enough to speak.

Just pretend to sign the petition and run away with it. That's what I did to PeTA once.

I almost wish plastic bags were important enough to get into a tizzy over. Want to talk about plastic bottles?

@8:

Yet you also say, they could be “pouring in” because the Seattle PI is providing blow-by-blow updates about how, when, and where people can sign the petition. That sounds awfully against direct democracy (what's wrong with people knowing where to go to voluntarily sign a petition?).

Sure, there was a vote by our elected representatives. That--more than direct voter referenda--is the American way, and I'm not one to claim it's unfair or undemocratic. But to say we've already had this debate before seems a bit dishonest, too; clearly some people still want to have the debate, and I'm not sure they shouldn't be accommodated.

"Special interests" becomes the catch-all dismissal for any such initiative--isn't the reduce/reuse/recycle crowd (the environmentalist crowd that I am a member of) an equally special interest?

@13:

I wish I heard more disdain for the Greenpeace chuggers. One of them jumped in front of my bike downtown a few weeks ago to try to get me to sign her petition.

Way to go, jackass. It's not like I'm biking because I have somewhere to be or something. And no, I'm not at all offended that you made me stop--risking an accident--so you could try to get me to fill your fucking quota. And don't even worry about how ignorant you are of your cause; I didn't expect you to know anything anyway.

God. They're so annoying. They make me want to go cut down trees, and like I said before, I'm otherwise sympathetic!

I talked to him for awhile. He's a fucking idiot. Nothing to see here. Can't believe this is on Slog. Someone should consider a drive-by if that's their scene.

Anyone else have a sudden flashback to the Man Show campaign: "End the Suffrage of Women!"

Signing it.

Let's all bring a few handfuls of plastic bags to a designated petition-gathering place at a designated time, and "accidentally" drop the bags all over the parking lot.

There was a friendly and intelligent-seeming man gathering signatures for this outside my Safeway today. He was waving around a guest editorial from the Times (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/opinion/2008080185_bagtaxop30.html) as proof that the bag tax would be BAD for the environment. I knew enough to shrug it off as ridiculous, but he was persuasive and I'm sure a lot of people will think, "well if it was in the Times, it must be true."

Just because you won the battle did not mean you won the war. To intimate that signature gathering for an initiative you don't like is undemocratic, well ... that's just too bad. Some of us prefer process that is more open to participation than lobbying a council in our spare time, after all.

While I'm all for improving the environment, this was not the way to go about it. I signed the petition because I feel the Council and Mayor should spend their time on more worthwhile activities: the shoddy state of transit, real crime, and affordable housing. This is an issue for legislators, not a city council--even a city as large as Seattle.

As it stands, I see the bag tax as merely feel-good posturing (though it is obviously resonating) with minimal environmental benefit and a significant burden for both store collection and consumer time. Have it go statewide, and find an alternative to making people calculate bag usage at the checkout, and I'll get behind the idea.

@22 - Wait, hold on... you are very handily ignoring the fact that no, these signature gatherers are in fact NOT gathering signatures out of their deeply held beliefs about the bag fee. They are paid signature gatherers. They are paid by an organization that is funded by the American Chemistry Council. And hence, these signature gatherers are not in any way shape or form contributing to an open and dynamic political process. Rather, they are the visible foot soldiers for the plastics and petroleum industries. That's not democracy, that's a bait and switch. Don't believe the hype.

@16

If you didn't ride your bike on the sidewalk you wouldn't have to deal with the Greenpeace assholes. The pedestrians will do it for you.

Next we'll bring refillable mugs to bars

plates to Gordo's

oh wait, that's gone now

hmm

Sounds as if someone's afraid that if it gets on the ballot it might get voted down. With everyone voting. You know, like in a democracy.

Because we voters are too stupid to vote the way you want us to, right?

I had a good time arguing with those guys this morning. They were full of entertaining lies!

I was told that the people had already passed the bag fee once, and that a poor single mother with a couple of kids could end up paying $25 in bag fees in a single grocery store trip.

At 22 & 23...way to say the same thing in wo very colorful and different ways.

Everyone knows this boils down to force the elecetion with sigs to appease the direct democracy fetishists and then approve it to drive the common sense people nuts. We'll punish evry single person for participating in society if we're diligent enough. Convenience is the quixotic luxury of the deliberate and sane. The rest of us carry jugs of water on ouur heads from the river to the adobe because the people have spoken and the people want struggle.

There wasn't any table, but as of 10pm someone is still there asking people who walk by.

He asked me if I'm registered to vote, and when I said yes he said something like, "and what about the bag tax"? To which I replied "don't care", cause I'm cool with the tax on bags. Bags get too many rights in this country anyway, it's time we taxed 'em more.

Anywho, I thought it odd at the time. as this was in the dark brick section of the SCC Campus on Broadway.

I am agnostic on the bag tax: I don't care if we have it or if we don't. I just think it's funny that the only time the business community ever thinks of poor people is when it comes to something that is going to inconvenience the business community. Then the hand-wringing and tender concern begins.

And why do they even care? It's just another tax to collect, which their computers can be easily set up to do. People are going to buy groceries whether they have to pay for bags or not.

Whatever happened to the idea of banning paid signature gatherers? Can I hire some people to get that on the ballot? For what it's worth, the lady by my grocery store was honest about what the signatures were for.

signed.

Why wasn't the proponents up front with the backing of the ACC to begin with? They have had weeks to publicize this, and now it seems, thanks to the PI, that fact will be glossed over as well.

Personally I don't have too much attachment to the bag tax, pro or con. But when out of state corporations get to pay to be part of our debate, and try to hide it, and our own papers are complicit in that--well, you know. Sick of being bullshitted.

The two sentiments that the author is contrasting ("give voters a chance" and "put it on the ballot") are pretty much the same thing. I'm all in favor of representative democracy, but a lot of us voters missed the bag-penalty discussion last election cycle.

I have opposed everything Tim Eyman has ever supported, and I pray that he doesn't weigh in on this issue, but as soon as I heard that some bag company with money for photocopies and lawyers had actually started this petition drive, I volunteered -really- to help them gather signatures.

I hate the chemical companies more than you (but not the local grocery chains who sought out their assistance) and I wish I didn't have to throw out my trash in plastic bags, but it's the law; soon all the bags in the landfill will be big thick shiny new ones.

@26 - here's the thing though, this ISN'T a movement of concerned citizens working to get a fair shake. That was the group of folks who volunteered their time to get the bag fee passed in the first place (and no, I'm not one of them, just a follower of such things). This signature drive and "campaign" is a very intentional move to delay the implementation of the fee, which was passed in a completely open and - as Dominic points out - well documented manner. Once the plastics industry gets that, they have the resources to overturn any citizen-led opposition. This exact scenario played out in California not too long ago, give it a google and see what you find. The important thing to remember is that this isn't a movement to give Seattle voters a voice. It's a strategy by the plastics and the ACC to make more money. Bottom line.

Had to explain it to the signature gatherer himself, as I grabbed the board from his hand and signed it.

Just another reason why we should get rid of paid signature gathers. I don't really have a problem with the various fundraisers and voter registration drive people, but I think politics needs to be citizen driven. Getting badgered by someone getting a quarter a signature is pretty lame.

I think iniatives are fair, if not nessessary, but they should live and die on there own merits, not on third parties harrasing and lying to people to get signatures.

Maybe we should regulate if we don't ban it. If signature gatherers had to make 24k a year and get health care coverage, maybe we'd get a better quality paid activist.

Signed it - back to the drawing board - this is the shits of a new law

1. Outlaw all bags at ALL retail outlets.
2. Paper, ALL paper can be reused and recycled. Get off the moonbeam attack on paper bags
3. Crap on the Rovian double speak, it is a tax, lets be honest - pox on the gobble gooble of green fee ( read the ordinance, it calls itself a tax)
4. It is an illegal de facto tax on food - which was outlawed many years ago in an earth shaking popular state wide vote.No taxing authority in this state can tax food or pharmacy, he very items the city targeted. The bag is a container needed to complete the food buying process and carry to domicile - like the milk carton lets you carry milk home.
5. Free paper bags at he grocery store go back at least 70 years for very good reasons.

START OVER CITY COUNCIL, THIS LAW IS PURE NOVICE GARBAGE, BAD APPROACH, POOR CONCEPT AND I THINK ILLEGAL THANKS TOM CARR

I am the greenest of greens in a green loving city - as are all my friends. We buy used, recycle everything and get all the reasons why.

And if you are going to try tax the food buying process, at least target the revenue to food banks, hunger is not good for the environment, thanks to God, they are not directly run by the inept city staffing.

Boo freaking hoo hoo.

This thing is getting on the ballot not because signature gatherers are being paid to get the signatures by an industry flack group (both of which are completely true), but because there is a HUGE audience who has been begging for an opportunity to hit back at literally dozens of pro-development and pro big-business initiatives this Mayor and Council have championed over the past few years - and this particular bit of top-down legislation resonates big time with them as a shining example of just how out of touch and unaccountable our local electeds are on 1,000,001 levels.

This referendum (which, in case you didn't know, is much more small d democratic and unassailable from a legal standpoint than an initiative because all folks are asking for is the opportunity to vote on a very narrow bit of local legislation. And can you say "single subject"?) will get on the ballot within the next two weeks and pass overwhelmingly.

Why does the Stranger hate democracy? Do you fear an actual vote on this issue, which seems life-or-death important when your side has prevailed, and suddenly trivial when you actually are looking at a public vote?

Are you prepared to STFU (as Mr. Savage so charmingly puts it to the rest of us when we bicker with him on SLOG) when you lose a citywide election?

DO YOU ALL REMEMBER THE STRIP CLUB COUNCIL CRAP - THIS REMINDS ME OF THE SAME - THEY ARE PISS, PISSED, PISSINGLY POOR AT WRITING LAWS

WHEN YOU EARN $120,000 PER YEAR, THE TRIBULATION OF THE WORKING CLASS ARE VERY DISTANT - WHEN IT COMES TO MONEY AND ADULT SEXUAL STUFF

AND THE MAYOR IS GETTING CREEPY - THE STRANGER IS ALL GAS, THE MAYOR PROPOSES AND THE STRANGER POSES FOR HIM - IS CONLIN DOING TOO MUCH ACID?

POOR SALLY CLARK WONDERED WHAT SHE WAS GOING TO DO WITH HER CATS SHIT - BUT - NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION CAUSE THE ANSWER IS TO BUY PLASTIC BAGS

DOES SANITATION RING ANY BELLS, ALL THE DIRTY CLOTH BAGS, MEAT STAINED, DIRT FROM VEGGIES, SEEPING JUICE, ROTTING BERRIES

AND CLOTH BAGS MADE FROM POLYESTER, OH, YOU BET, WHICH CAN'T BE RECYCLED AT ALL

SIGN IT AND VOTE FOR THE REF - TELL CITY HALL TO GET MUCH SMARTER, IT IS WELL PAST THAT TIME

(CAPS AS I CAN'T FIND MY GLASSES, IE. GOODWILL FRAMES, YOU BET)

Paid signature gathering sucks no matter who does it.

Paid signature gathering sponsored by chemical companies sucks more.

"Populism" promoted by chemical companies opposed to environmental regulation is really depressing.

The bag tax also sucks.

Mr. X is completely right; the failure of elected officials to try and represent the people or at best hamfistedly represent the people results in direct democracy's ugly and populist head surfacing and eliminating something potentially good.

If you don't want elected official's initiatives being overturned by the people, maybe the elected officials need to be represent the people more.

The young man who approached me told me the petition was to get it on the ballot to determine what would be done with the money and seemed to infer that my democratic rights were being transgressed if I didn't sign it. When I started to talk about the fact budgeting shouldn't be done by the masses and that the main funding priorities should have already stated at the beginning of the fiscal year, he started backing away. He really moved faster when I said - I'm a supporter of referendums and the f'in council, mayor, state, should make hard decisions (that's part if the job) without constantly going out to the people as a strategy to kill something. (like transit, 'cause yeah we all agree on that, let's present it in a jacked up plan, we know doesn't work and other parts of the country say doesn't work, know the people won't like and then say, well we (elected officials) did our part, seattle just isn't ready).
Isn't this all wordsmithing or maybe I need to be schooled? Don't you pay if you don't bring a bag? I thought a tax was something you were required to pay. Having lived in places where there was a bag fee, the earth didn't stop spinning and there were always a bin of empty bags at the front of the store you could delve through. I'm still scratching my head about all the fuss.

@43, I don't pay sales tax if I never buy anything. That doesn't mean it's not a tax.

I didn't know this existed until just now - thanks for bringing it to my attention! I'll be sure to sign it multiple times.

i can't believe this. stupid.

a bag tax is what gets people to sign initiatives?

people are so self-selfish, uneducated, and short-sighted...

we are doomed.

#46

no you are doomed if you think this trivial feel good crap from upper middle class elected nerds passing a silly law solves global warming or ends pollution

think big council, you can if you try

seriously. just make them illegal like in LA

Just because the "bag tax" won't INSTANTLY SOLVE EVERY GLOBAL WARMING CONCERN - that's a reason to NOT support it?

"Small moves, Ellie. Small moves."

@46 - read 49. even if the plastic bag tax isn't perfect, how is putting it to a vote any better? if yes, the same end with a bunch of wasted time and money. if no, then what? then the council can't even do a little thing! and you think the voters will okay a big thing? ha!

furthermore, this is the issue people choose to call the council on? if there are bigger issues -- as you say -- should those be on the ballot?

for instance:

1) an initiative to ban plastic bottles

2) an initiative to stop subsidizing condo development (choose your pet cause here...)

no, this initiative is mind-boggling stupid and many levels, including the fact that is is likely counter-productive to whatever your altruistic cause happens to be.

in the the first paragraph: instead of "if yes" it would be clearer to say, "if the outcome of the vote is yes"

recycling by fiat of the council

what the hell happened to education and explanation and voluntary committment

and where is the clear city plan to take on the big issues? industrial polluting, clean air, clean water, better recycling of all material

the bag thing is sop for the easily led masses, grandstanding for Mc Mayor and Conky Conlin, who want to be mayor - bad law

So do the duck squeezers want the government to stay out of your life or not? First there's the bag tax, which the stranger apparently supports, but then the very next post is bitching and moaning about how seattle interferes more than Portland..except when it doesn't.

It seems to me that there's no reason not to have an issue that's going to have an effect on people placed on the ballot for a vote.

This is the kind of topic that attracts ALL CAPS lurkers. Ugh.

Why do so many people here clearly hate democracy?

...because they're about to get their asses handed to them by it.

Don't sign petitions, period. This form of lawmaking is stupid and irresponsible.

Thanks @44, but the question was is it a fee or a tax. You don't pay a fee, if you bring a bag, but if I bring a bag and then an additional 20 cents is plopped on, this may be a flat tax. I'm just trying to clarify what the thing is. "cause in this state the word "tax" sends people up the wall, where "fee" or more partucularly "subsidy" does not. and more often subsides cost us more than taxes in the long run.

If it weren't for citizen's initiatives, the Pike Place Market would have been razed, and the RH Thompson and Bay Freeways would have been built.