Comments on Maybe It's Not an Either/Or Question?

I think that "or" was supposed to be an "and".

In the case of CM and Friday's incident, that seems like precisely the question. What's your objection?

Yeah, it's lioke I thought...

the old dinasour me can chase the doulble screen here at the North Seattle Community College but it can't post while the double sided screen is making a new header above it.

I prefer the old 'and/or.'

i'm still waiting for their article about drivers:

"Fat & Lazy, or Just Don't Care About The Environment?"

Maybe THAT's not an either/or question.

I commute by bike daily, and these Critical Mass jackholes aren't making me feel any safer.

It does look like a lot of fun, though.

A cyclist once blew through a stop sign and I go "Hey there's a stop sign!" at which point the guy turned his cycle around, got in my face (A PEDESTRIAN) and threatened to knock me out.

Yes, I am letting this interaction frame my whole opinion about cyclists when reinforced by news like this and anecdotes from countless others in this city and the world over.

Fucking cyclists. And no, I do not drive.

Did something happen with Critical Mass?

Ghandi was a hooligan.

#7 you really went "hey, there's a stop sign!"? Hahah.
so do you scream at every pedestrian who jaywalks, too?

A mob is a mob is a mob. Whether they're on bikes, on foot, or in cars. Looks like Critical Mass has outlived its usefulness.

Conversely, bike advocates are no Ghandi.

Also, why are the Bustedtees models so hot?

The word "hooligan" is an unfair smear on Irish-Americans.

I do wish these CM assholes would quit ruining it for all of us other bicycle riders who only break the law when we don't inconvience other people.

It seems clear that driver was crazy and in the wrong on Aloha, but I lost my generally supportive feelings about Critical Mass the day I was driving north along the water front and about 30 or more of them suddenly decided all at once that they needed two lanes instead of one and just shifted the whole mass from the right lane out into the left lane. They really didn't need the room for safety or any other reason. It was just a big "fuck you". And that's what I think they are about now - just a big "fuck you", which is why they accomplish so little good and may even generate dangerous resentment against the vast majority of bicyclists who just want to safely use the roads.

Is the plight of the Seattle bicyclist equivilant to that of Rosa Parks or Mathew Sheppard?

@1 No you typo'd that.

It should have said "Are"

I sure wish all those SUV drivers would stop ruining it for all the other drivers who get 30 mpg or more.

And it would be nice if, when opening their car doors, they looked over their shoulder before smacking the metal door into the cyclist using the street legally.

Seattle cyclists are assholes to Seattle pedestrians. No one ever writes about that. For the sake of safety, why don't they get off their bike and walk it over the Ballard or Fremont Bridge? Bike and pedestrians don't mix.

Naked bicyclists are much more fun and make an enjoyable sight/point.

MLK rode a bike.

On behalf of insects everywhere, I have to say that pedestrians are the assholes here! They walk around not looking onto whose backs they are stepping. Don't get me started!

We insects don't even know the concept of petroleum products, we don't use plastic bags and we don't keep pit-bulls.

You humans make me sick!

Dan - How about a Slog pole?

I love it when drivers are yelling at cyclists to get on the sidewalk (most of the time a bad idea) and pedestrians are yelling at us to get off in one of the few places in Seattle where it actually does make sense to ride a bike on the sidewalk (Ballard and Fremont bridges).

Please stop pretending that because you have run into a handful of cyclist assholes that cyclists are therefore assholes. We have all run into asshole drivers and assholes walking down the street without generalizing to all drivers/pedestrians.

Most people don't ride bicycles regularly so it's easy to classify cyclists as "them" and decide that you hate "them" and they are all assholes. Please don't do that. It is easy to do, but it is also ignorant and wrong.

The Stranger and most of Slog is pro density and green. Bicycles are a very good, very necessary part of any high density green movement.

Nothing like being a cyclist and getting a 'door prise' from some a$$ in an SUV

@22, I bet Dan would love a Slog Pole.

Front page? Really Seattle Times?

or prize, depending on your taste...

I'd have a lot more sympathy for bike riders if I wasn't constantly nearly getting run over by them (as a pedestrian) because they think they don't have to stop at stop signs or traffic lights like the rest of the world does. Instead, I confess I mostly feel disdain for them, and in every situation like the recent Critical Mass one, I always assume the bike riders are to blame.

Keep up the good PR work, bicyclists! One day you'll rule the world. Like the British.

Besides, everybody knows it's us pedestrians who are really making the greatest sacrifice for the planet. So, I definitely think it's time the bike riders get off their high. . . um. . . bikes, and stop being such dicks on the road.

Shoot, wait, that should be "it's we pedestrians," right? Not "it's us"?

I'm sure a bicyclist will correct me if I got it wrong.

Every time I "accidentally" cut off (or door) a biker, I think of Critical Mass and smile...

I've been a dude riding a bike to work for about four years...not a commuter (they're another brand of bike maniac entirely), just a dude riding his bike...

I took the bus yesterday, and will repeat today...everyone's freaking out. Freakers.

Seems I have to take sides, but both the options suck SO bad! Thanks, everyone.

The bike rider in me (ayo) wants to side with the cyclists...maybe take everyone on a bike tour around town, which is always harrowing, to help illustrate the dangers of riding a bike and how unneccessarily lame it can be...but the CM krusties are so wack...can't really get with them...

I wish it would turn into "gay kids are always freaking out, even when behind the wheel of Subarus." I could join that conversation, that's a good one.

I'd drive today, but I found my gas cap laying on the ground. Gas thieves in the night? Fuck.

Gotta cram in with the smelly old retarded people on the bus, I guess... Fuck.

I like the "you can be dead right on a bike" comment, however that one goes.

Why oh why do we insist on trying to simplify every single god damn situation into black vs white? Are we not smart enough to realize that there is always more than one thing going on?

I miss Heavy D. He was tite.

Fuck the Stranger, by the way.

"Front page? Really Seattle Times?"

Are you suggesting there's not enough interest in this story that would elevate it to front-page status? The voluminous comments on Slog and numerous other sites suggest otherwise.

Dan, "bike advocates or hooligans" evaluates to true when both of the values are true.

However, if the story had said "Bike advocates xor hooligans", then we'd have something to talk about.

I really just want the asshole red-faced bluetoothed alpha-male car freak-outers to have to side with an apologetic gay kid...that's the only good thing that can come out of this (besides one less fixed-gear bike)... The whole thing sucks. It's like some lame reality show, where nobody's interesting or smart.

Sucks.

- Take one young, frightened, hot-headed male who feels he's entitled to the road, trapped in a 2000 pound piece of moving machinery.

- Add one mob of hot-headed bicyclists who feel they're entitled to the road, taking over the road, harassing drivers, busses and pedestrians alike, and violating every traffic law in existence.

Stir.

Result = a front page article in the Seattle Times and 4 days of heavy Slog coverage.

I'm only surprised crap like this doesn't happen more often. Both sides had numerous opportunities to de-escalate the situation. Both sides, predictably, escalated until people got hurt. CM could have stopped being such dicks. The driver could have just waited a few minutes. But they didn't. People are like that.

Things like this DO happen all the time, though, that's the whole point. An uprovoked kid punched an old dude in a traffic circle last week (hey--where are these car-driving vigilante super-law-abider champions on THAT one?--those cones couldn't've been "legal" and were probably "annoying"--their favorite buzzwords for their fake causes on this CM stuff), people are petitioning Starbucks to keep their store open, McCain is gonna win, etc etc etc! We're STUPID. Not news!

...and don't forget the "surely malicious" metal spikes in Greenlake (Green Lake?)... SURELY MALICIOUS IN INTENT: WITHOUT A DOUBT AIMED AT PREGNANT LESBIAN GIRLFRIENDS SITTING SHOTGUN!

NEWS!!!

C'mon folks.

This is not about all cyclists, it's about Critical Mass and these incidents are not new to them.

And to the car haters, you know, we're not all fat and lazy. 99% of my commuting is by commuter train or foot. My only vehicle is a pickup, which I drive probably once per month when I have no other option. I don't hate the environment, nor am I lazy and worthless. I just happen to think that Seattle has become a terrible place to raise a family. I moved south to a place with low crime and lots of walkability.

These snap judgments on both sides are pathetic on par with "Since a black person has committed a crime, all blacks are criminals" and "gays had public sex so all gays have public sex". Think about how ignorant you are being.

I think most could agree, regardless of extreme sides, that a police presence at CM rides would be helpful.

C'mon folks.

This is not about all cyclists, it's about Critical Mass and these incidents are not new to them.

And to the car haters, you know, we're not all fat and lazy. 99% of my commuting is by commuter train or foot. My only vehicle is a pickup, which I drive probably once per month when I have no other option. I don't hate the environment, nor am I lazy and worthless. I just happen to think that Seattle has become a terrible place to raise a family. I moved south to a place with low crime and lots of walkability.

These snap judgments on both sides are pathetic on par with "Since a black person has committed a crime, all blacks are criminals" and "gays had public sex so all gays have public sex". Think about how ignorant you are being.

I think most could agree, regardless of extreme sides, that a police presence at CM rides would be helpful.

I heart you, alex.

Hooligans. Definitely.

hey sheeh, the cops have tried that (to escort CM) after last year's debacle with the undercover cops..

but the next month they were gone.. wonder why? oh yeah, all the drunk drivers, rapists, muggers.. you know, real crime. i think they were bored.

Thesis: Bike advocate

Antithesis: Hooligan

Synthesis: Erica C. Barnett

Answer: Some hooligans, accompanied by many hooligan-enablers.

Good points Sheesh! Snap judgments are never good and it's scary to see people living in one of the most open-minded parts of the country talk this way about each other. I moved here from Texas a month ago to get away from this type of mentality, largely based on the philosophy of Jesus H. Christ.

CM should petition the Seattle Police Department for their presence at all rides for their own protection. Yes, some cops are assholes, just like some cyclists are assholes, and some pedestrians are assholes - you've all covered this phenomenon in previous comments.

Videos of the rides would also help to show what happens on rides and would help to discourage dumb CM rider behavior and harassment from law enforcement. This is exactly what CM in New York is doing to help document the harassment they are facing from law enforcement when they do group rides.

A mob is a mob is a mob. Whether they're on bikes, on foot, or in cars. Looks like Critical Mass has outlived its usefulness.

Want to know what the Critical Massholes are really all about? Check out this lovely video of a bunch of them surrounding an elderly, handicapped couple in San Francisco.

Vandalizing their minivan. Jamming their bikes under the vehicle. Claiming that there's someone trapped under the car. Swearing at them. These are the people who love their "community" so much.

Such lovely thugs you are, Critical Mass.

CM should petition the Seattle Police Department for their presence at all rides for their own protection.

This would require the Critical Massholes to get a parade permit. They'd never get a permit for a Friday rush hour, so they just go ahead and do it. Yes, I completely agree with the idea of the SPD escort. Straight to jail.

That video above is really disturbing. It's quite obvious this a planned and executed staging, trying to say that woman was run over like that!

This is eerily similar to what happened here in Seattle. These people are screaming that they were attacked by the Subaru just like how it happened on the video.

That video above is really disturbing. It's quite obvious this a planned and executed staging, trying to say that woman was run over like that!

This is eerily similar to what happened here in Seattle. These people are screaming that they were attacked by the Subaru just like how it happened on the video.

I hope people will circulate that video far and wide. It's very important that decision makers see just what Critical Mass is really all about.

Why can't we grid the system. Say take over some parking on every 5th or 10th road, and turn the parking into bike lanes. Build some off street parking to off-set the loss, and get bikes and cars outta the same system.

I'm a biker, a driver, a bus rider and a pedestrian. And I don't like walking around Greenlake any better than biking in traffic. Seattle has no vision on reforming or traffic system.

We could also be taking over planting strips for biking here and there where it makes sense.

Sharrows are about as stupid of a thing as there is. I don't bike between moving cars and car doors unless it is ABSOLUTELY necessary. And having biked the backroads throughout King County for years I think it's high time we just took over, not moving lanes of traffic, but some parking here and there to make some really nice bike routes all over the city.

Gets the cars outta the bikes hair, and the bikers outta the cars.

Entropy is right on the "sharrows." Along with being just an embarrassing and horrible word (gotsta be fake too: it's on some "we're SHaring this nARROW part of the road: open parked car doors, moving car fenders, and you! Sharing! Narrow! Yay! shit) sharrows are a silly half-assed waste of paint, at best. Stupid. Perfectly Seattle, however, and not a surprise. "Here's an area where the rules are the same. Yes, that's right: we've designated this part of the road to have no special rules. That's why we painted this symbol here." I'd hate to see the guy's house what came up with these things, by the way: he's probably got every single item labeled with a sticky note. "Floor." "Wall." "Another Part Of Floor."

Ass.

Entropy's also right about the way to solve this whole shit (or at least alleviate a whole lot of the pain): instead of "making new bike paths," it's realigning some of our priorities, and using existing infrastructure in a different way. Turn some onstreet parking into bike lanes (include this now infamous Aloha, even though it does suck crossing The Hill...trussit: I gots ups no hill can faze me). That's really the best way, and supremely easy.

And for anyone whining that they'll lose lanes for cars, we'll turn that horrible bike lane on 2nd Downtown back into a normal lane (the most misguided bike lane in history: I dare you to feel safer riding down the left side of 2nd Ave in that "bike" lane...lemme come over and see what records I can dibbs before you DIE in that Chamber of Doom! Gnarliest bike lane in history. SRSLY.)

We're looking like idiots up here in Seattle with all this bike stuff though, and it's getting embarrassing. Seattle's quest for big-citiness is ruining it. We're not a big city, we need to quit pretending... Right now we're looking like the nerd girl from The AfterSchool Special, abandoning her real friends in an attempt to join the cheerleading squad. Big mistake right? Always. Because the cheerleaders are boring bitches.

Yeah, and Portland: she's embraced her nerdiness, and shit. And like, she's got a website going and she's got a couple tattoos and shit... and she's having way more fun, now that she just accepted who she is and oh dang she's flourishing! Flourish!

um

On the rilly real Portland has all the real progressive bike attitude (and fewer hills and more people on bikers and better weather but let's not ruin my whole shit)...have you SEEN it down there? It's really nice: they have the Super Green Bike Lane, which makes the rules VERY clear at an intersection (unlike Seattle's approach, where often the bike lane will disintegrate when nearing an intersection, either with the dotted "you're kinda still in a bike lane" lines, or the shit just ends--you ride off a cliff and BOOM you're back to being some asshole on a bike passing all these cars on the right...the dudes painting the lines were like "um, fuckit dood-- we don't really know what to do here, we're just stopping this bike lane AKA yer on yer own. good luck. we'll start it up on the other side."). Clarity = safety, when it comes to an argument where one side will ALWAYS win (and win BIG). Seattle's dropped the ball so far, falling back on the Burke Gilman Trail as evidence of their "bike friendliness."

We need more. Or, if not "more;" we need "different." Obama for change and shit. Still having the Ballard Bridge as a city-endorsed recommended bike route is a joke.

Portland has a bridge, and I shit you not, where on the approach there is a double bike lane. Seriously. Go check it out. They have so many people on bikes that they've got the squid roadies and supercommuter speedsters on one part, and the recumbent beardos and beach cruiserey bar hoppers on another. AND they still have 3 dollar pints of good beer in every bar.

Meanwhile, we're painting roads to say "no change here," and gay kids are running over everyone.

Yes, I'm fascinated by the Subaru driver being gay. Like, when OJ got off, I saw it as a positive step, that even a Black dude could buy his way to freedom... I haven't figured out what illuminating insight this will bring to the Straight World, but there has to be something: gays hate fixed-gears too? Gays are into motorsports? Gays are impatient overreacting travel agents who cry a lot? ...oh wait...

frealdo we gotta fix these lanes I'm running out of gas and I only have one U-lock left to bash fools in the back of their heads, and all the broken glass is getting stuck in my pubes (I wear a utilikilt)...

ahahahahahaha dang that was a good rant wi-five to the sloggerz

Seattle's quest for big-citiness is ruining it. We're not a big city, we need to quit pretending.

The Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue metro area is the 15th largest in the United States. This is absolutely a big city. However, we have a relatively low density of population, even in Seattle itself: only 43rd. This is because of the predominance of single-family housing here.

Together with the geography here, the low density makes for a difficult transit situation. We've got a lot of people here, but they're not packed in very closely. It's a recipe for a lot of cars, which means that bicyclists will find it challenging.

All of that said, the idea that a band of renegade, terminally trendy, meth-addled Critical Massholes thinks they can hold motorists hostage is something that's not going to fly. If there's one good outcome of this recent dustup, it's that the overwhelming majority of citizens in this area want Critical Mass to suffer a crackdown. So let the crackdown begin.

Ah yes, bring on the numbers, that'll prove it! "15th biggest!" "We have the 3rd Worst Traffic!" "I swear we have rappers too!" "I read it!"

So, you're adding Tacoma AND Bellevue? Nice work, good point. That'll put "Seattle" on all sorts of crazy lists: 40 Mile Wide Cities, Cities In Two Counties, Cities That Had Two SportsDomes At Once, etc. Throw in Everett and Spokane, and Paris and Moscow and Shangmotherfuckinhai while you're at it...

SEATTLE.

Go there. You won't feel as if you're in a big city.

You want to bring numbers, count up the good 24-hour restaurants...report back with a Big City LateNite Restaurant Score and we'll reassess the situation. As of right now, I'm not buying it.

...and bring that Gallup Poll that shows this overwhelming desire of the majority of the citizens in this area who want these 100 radical sociology students on bikes to "suffer a crackdown"... I missed that one. Most people I talk to don't give a shit. (I'm seeing widespread apathy, which, I'll admit, does lend credence to the "Seattle as Big City" Theory--maybe I should ignore that...)

Gotta bounce-- my neighbor from TACOMA just knocked on the door to borrow some sugar!

Here comes one really trivial post:

Reverse Polarity @ 35, and Paul Constant the other day...

2,000 lbs? Please!

No way.

Cars just aren't that light anymore. (Not in this country.) Yeah, there was a time when an econo car hovered around 1 ton (or less) in this country, and a luxo barge, 2 tons.

Not anymore.

A car like a Civic clocks in around 2,700, easily. A Subaru Legacy Outback wagon, well over 3,000, I'd guess 3,3300. An Audi A6 Quattro sedan, 3,999 lbs. Safety, luxury, and the luxury of cheap gas/consumer preference did this.

You don't want to know what the truck-based SUV's weigh.

I bring this up because if we drove, say, cars, I mean, actual cars, not referring to our Ford Explorer (5,000 lbs) as "the car" -- our oil dependence would go down a little bit.

End of picayune automotive point.

Ah yes, bring on the numbers, that'll prove it! "15th biggest!" "We have the 3rd Worst Traffic!" "I swear we have rappers too!" "I read it!"

Let's see, the uber-hip alex doesn't like numbers, so I guess I won't tell him that, by itself, Seattle is the 23rd largest city in the country. Yeah, I know, alex likes "big cities." If it ain't New York or Chicago or Paris or Tokyo or Shanghai, then it's not a big city.

Well, look, alex, I'm not from here and I don't care what Seattle is considered to be by the hipsters such as yourself. The facts run against you, but of course you don't like facts, just like the Critical Massholes don't like laws or the "communities" that they claim to hold high.

Most people I talk to don't give a shit.

I think that says a lot more about you and your thug friends than it does about the issue or about Seattle, this hopeless small town in this hopeless province. What are you and your Critical Masshole buddies doing here if you hate it so much?

Incidentally, is Boston a big city? Because the list shows that it's smaller than Seattle. Oh, wait, I see that your definition of "big city" entails the number of good restaurants open all night. alex, the terminally faux hipster doesn't know that, even in the biggest cities, i.e., Chicago, L.A., and New York, there really aren't too many 24-hour restaurants of any sort, let alone good ones.

Ah, but then there's alex's definition of "good." I bet that would be yummy as hell. If having a sub-population of snotty, self-entitled poseurs qualifies a city as a big city, Seattle's right up there with the biggest, and alex helped.

Am I "uber-hip," or a "terminally faux hipster?" I'm needing Venn diagrams for this one already...

But yes, Boston is definitely bigger than Seattle, your numbers be damned. Unless we're counting Tacoma and Bellevue. What's with that again?

What else?

oh yeah, "my thug friends," the ones who don't give a shit: I guess I should clarify that--they don't give a shit about the fabricated "bikes vs cars" issue. The Region Manager (he's hella thug, I'll agree--straight gangster boss in charge of 5000+ employees) said that he sees cyclists treated with what he feels is the utmost respect in his neighborhood...my dad (also my friend), a retired engineer (thuggish as they come), also saw right through the fake labels, and asked immediately if there was something more going on. These guys were smart enough to realize that these situations are about individuals, and their abilities to make decisions under stress... Why not you?

I think Critical Mass itself is a non-issue. Probably a good idea, if it is about raising cycling awareness, but too many college kids and restaurant workers in shitty bands have turned it into whatever the hell it's supposed to be... Utilikilts and flaming baton twirlers, right? I dunno. Not my people. But 100 people riding bikes through red lights every fourth friday afternoon? They need to "suffer a crackdown?" Come on. It's college kids on bicycles.

And who said I hated it here? Where did you read that? All I said was Seattle is not a big city, and should embrace the things that make it one of the best places I've ever lived. You're not helping your cause, jumping to all these conclusions...I love it here, and I'm not a "Critical Masshole." (And honestly, I'd never be caught dead within a Subaru's length of that hackish pun.)

-Alex, Seattle Resident and Bicycle Rider

I think Critical Mass itself is a non-issue

Your thug friends have been bullying motorists and pedestrians for years, not just in Seattle but elsewhere as well, as this video of a Critical Mass thug attack on an elderly, handicapped couple in San Francisco shows.

These guys were smart enough to realize that these situations are about individuals, and their abilities to make decisions under stress

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Your idiot father stands for the same thugs.

But 100 people riding bikes through red lights every fourth friday afternoon? They need to "suffer a crackdown?" Come on. It's college kids on bicycles.

It's college thugs on meth, riding bicycles and bullying everything and anything in their path. Yes, they need to "suffer" a crackdown.

I love it here, and I'm not a "Critical Masshole."

You might as well be, for all the excuses you are making for your thug buddies.

But yes, Boston is definitely bigger than Seattle, your numbers be damned.

First the Boy Wonder says no one should use metropolitan area populations. Then, when shown a list of city populations, he ignores it. His last defense: Mere numbers don't count. Tell me, then, my Seattle "loving" whackjob, what yardstick are we to use? The one you've measured on the tinfoil around your head?

I'd suggest that everyone check out "Dear Science" on the back page opposite the comics in the current Stranger for a good piece adressing the bigger problems at play in this situation --- Seattle's baffling apporach to urban planning. This approach seems to relegate bicyclists to tossed-off afterthought and provides drivers with no clear way to share the road with bikes (yeah, the three feet law does not help much when the bike line is basically right in the lane of traffic with no clear lines seperating the two).