City Liveslogging the Disposable Bag Hearing
posted by on July 8 at 21:09 PM
I’ll be live-Slogging the public-comment meeting on the proposed 20-cent fee for disposable plastic and paper bags (and proposed ban on Styrofoam food containers). Read along with me as enraged citizens yell at the council about their God-given right to free plastic bags, and environmentalists dressed up in silly costumes wave their hands and sing songs out in favor of the measure.
So far, the testimony has all been in favor of the fee and ban. First up: Shoreline City Council member Janet Way, who was accompanied by someone dressed up in an uncomfortable-looking costume made of plastic bags—the “Bag Monster.” The council member and her monster were followed by the (also pro-fee) Raging Grannies, about a dozen senior citizens in funny hats who waved canvas bags in the air while singing a version of “This Land is Your Land” repurposed as a pro-recycling anthem. (Sample lyrics: “This can is your can/ this can is my can/ we use it once and we’ll use it again/ it might come back as a bicycle handlebar/ this can was made for you and me”).
The grocery industry is speaking now. Jim Fenton, a representative for the QFC grocery chain, and Joe Gilliam, a spokesman for the Northwest Grocery Association, argued that a bag tax represents an undue burden on low-income people, and would consume too much time at the checkstand. A one-time transaction fee at checkout, Fenton argued, would “avoid delay at our checkstands so that our customers have time to get home to their families.” Gilliam added, “We’re concerned about our customers who can’t afford [the fee], who are low income. There’s no one at our checkstand who should be singled out because of their income. … our concern for the fixed and low-income folks who can’t afford the per-bag tax.” The first “concern” is absurd (if they’re that worried about slow lines, why not get rid of cigarette sales and ID checks?), and the second is just disingenuous, particularly the second. As I’ve said before, anyone who can afford groceries—in other words, just about everyone—can afford to buy a 73-cent reusable bag.
Ooh, two disingenuous claims I haven’t heard before. First, Mark Johnson, the vice president of government affairs for the Washington Retail Association, argued that his organizations had “health concerns” about “bags that are not being cleaned or washed and are being used over and over again.” Because no one knows that you’re supposed to wash produce (or put it in the plastic produce bags that won’t be subject to the tax) before you shove it in your mouth.
On to disingenuous objection Two, also from Johnson: Canvas bags will encourage shoplifting! Let those raging grannies have a canvas shopping bag, and the next thing you know, away walks your whole inventory.
Steve Williamson, organizer for United Food and Commercial Workers Local 21, made many of these same arguments a few minutes ago, adding that “inconvenient” reusable bags would cause workers physical harm. Encouraging reusable bags, Williamson said, would “be a burden on our members” because of the “additional work hefting overfilled and heavy bags.” But aren’t the UFCW’s members the ones who’d be filling up the bags?
Several moms just testified. One (sorry, didn’t get her name), her four-year-old at her side, told the council, “It is so so easy to get a bag. They give them away at a lot of places. I haven’t paid for one of mine. People are lazy— I’m an American, I’m lazy … but I am committed to change. I’ve never been all that political but my children have made me so. Our kids are going to be left wit the mess we created.” Another said that “as the mother of three-year-old, I believe we are not likely to change our behavior without a slight amount of punitiveness. If this is what it takes to get us off our butts and do something proactive I think we ought to do it.”
Cherie Myers, director of government affairs for Safeway, just made the case all the other grocery retailers (with the notable exception of Madison Market and PCC, whose representatives have both argued ) have made: That asking poor people to pay for bags (or remember to bring their own) is an onerous financial burden. She also argued that charging for bags would lead people to ration bags—in other words, to (horrors!) use less.
Several speakers in a row have argued for a voluntary approach—encouraging people to bring their own bags and recycle plastic bags (which, as another speaker pointed out, is total greenwashing) instead of requiring them. The problem is, the city already encourages reuse and recycling, and has for years. People don’t change unless they’re given an incentive to do so. The fact that this issue has kicked up such a shitstorm shows that 20 cents a bag may be a sufficient incentive to make them bring their own damn bags to the store.
Here’s an argument I haven’t heard before: Food banks, apparently, get their bags through donations, and many of them are disposable grocery bags. Kelsey Beck, of the hunger-relief organization Food Lifeline, said that “while we’re excited that the city is giving out bags” to low-income people and seniors [as well as one free bag for every Seattle citizen], the group worries that “with the reduction of bags from the bag fee, there will probably be [fewer] bags for food banks.” Perhaps, in addition to giving away multiple free bags to low-income citizens, the city should provide bags to food banks—or food banks should encourage citizens to donate reusable bags, instead of just disposable ones.
A spokeswoman from Washington Conservation voters also addressed concerns about low-income people, noting that people with lower incomes suffer disproportionately from the impacts of pollution—and added that the city’s free-bag program “ensures that the fee is used as a disincentive, not a regressive burden.”
A commenter just asked me why we can’t just recycle plastic bags. To start with, fewer than one percent of all plastic bags used in the United States are recycled. Why? In part, because bags can only be recycled if they’re made purely of one kind of plastic and have never been contaminated by coming into contact with any foreign materials (one reason even most of the plastic bags you chuck into the recycling bin end up in landfills). In addition, and perhaps more importantly, the vast majority of plastic bag “recycling” is really just downcycling—because it’s more expensive to recycle plastic bags than to just make new plastic bags, the bags are almost always turned into other plastic products that themselves can’t be recycled.
The Plastic Monster is speaking now. Who’d have guessed that plastic monsters talk like Trekkies?
Unrelated point: I’m actually impressed that Richard McIver—a lame-duck city council member whose final term ends next year—has stuck around for the duration of this extremely looooong hearing. Given that McIver generally prefers to talk than listen (not a slam—like his policies or loathe them, the man has a talent for the unexpected, perceptive offhand remark), and given that his political aspirations at this point are presumably nonexistent, his stamina at tonight’s hearing is surprising.
Regarding the complaints coming up now at the hearing and in the comments that charging 20 cents for plastic bags makes it impossible for people to dispose of their garbage in any way other, as one woman put it, than “taking my garbage in my hands”—let me introduce Slog readers to biodegradable, compostable plastic bags, of which there are many, many options.
And with that, I’m out. Thanks for reading (even those commenters who whinged that this was “boring” while avidly hanging on every word) and see you in the morning.
Sorry to bother you because I know you're in a complete lather this evening, but...When?
When will you (will you?) address the fact that the expanded foam ban is expected to make things worse? (At least until some time in 2010 when better products MIGHT come on the market.) Bag ban maybe makes some sense. Please try to explain why the expanded foam ban makes sense. Please.
@2
Pls. explain u r conclusory.
Liveslogging the disposable bag hearing? Is this a joke?! You have officially "nuked the fridge".
Out of order post:
Sorry, I didn't know where to post this. It is a technical problem.
I keep getting the following error on my browser on the bottom of the pages when I get past the first page or two of the posts:
"The requested page could not be found.
Smarty error: [in evaluated template line 187]: syntax error: unrecognized tag 'MTBlogId' (Smarty_Compiler.class.php, line 580)"
Using Firefox 2, Mac OS 10.5.3.
Anyway, thought someone should know.
Later!
:) k.
Erica, you keep citing these 73-cent bags, but where are you finding these? Every grocery store I've been to in the area (Safeway, QFC, Fred Meyer, Whole Foods, Trader Joes) have their bags 99-cents and above.
So where am I not shopping that have these cheap(er) bags?
Those arguments are laughable...why does QFC have a sign asking me if I remembered my reusable bag if they cause workers physical harm and are unsanitary?
I don't understand why they are even talking about it, is it to give the impression that this is still a democracy?
They are going to do it anyway, just like the ban on trans fats and the mandatory menu labeling, so what the fuck difference does this circle jerk hearing make?
Does it make anyone feel better that this pseudo democratic process is happening? "Oh, they did this, but at least they listened to us first?"
Please, we're beyond that now just pass your stupid feel good ban and move on to more important things like solving the serious transportation issues facing the region.
Will you stop dripping contempt long enough to explain just why these insidious bags aren't being recycled under the City's already mandatory recycling program?
It seems that when I'm too tired to go down to the marina and choke innocent wildlife with them, its very easy to wad them up and drop them in a big blue recycling bin.
They can't solve real problems. Our city government is full of worthless, gutless turds. Instead, they are spending this time to try and convince people that they are actually doing something. Seattle is like the special olympics of government.
@6: PCC offers them for 73 cents. Bartell's has them for 99.
@ 9: Because plastic bag recycling consumes massive amounts of energy; because bags can only be recycled if they're made purely of one kind of plastic and have never been contaminated by coming into contact with any foreign materials (one reason even most of the plastic bags you chuck into the recycling bin aren't recycled) and because plastic bag "recycling" is really just downcycling--the bags are turned into another plastic product that itself can't be recycled (most plastic bags aren't turned into more plastic bags because it's more expensive than just making new plastic bags.) This is a good starting point if you actually want to learn more: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/08/10/plastic_bags/index1.html
The problem for me is then I have to pay for plastic bags to throw my trash out in. You see like many apartment dumpsters, they are always full because of DYI folk throwing in all the useless things they've thrifted. So I always have to put my trash on top of the dumpster, which of course requires a bag. But I sympathize with those who take issue with the excesses of unreflective traditions, like this:
http://www.barynya.com/barynya/images/Joplin/Russian_Folk_Dance_Rigodon.jpg
Most boring live blogging ever.
We may as well tax the lids on Starbucks cups, water bottle caps, and undistributed copies of the Stranger, as well for all that's worth.
@13: If you're going to have to buy them, why not buy compostable plastic bags instead?
@ 14: Thanks for reading, Trevor! I always appreciate your thoughtful comments. They contribute so much to the discussion.
I don't think this is trivial at all. The lowest end estimate of how much of the massive pile of plastic shit in our oceans that bags make up is 2%. That's the lowest end. Getting rid of 2% of that would be a huge step forward, and if we had a solution that for a one time cost of $5.00 per family would reduce our carbon emissions by 2%, everyone would be jizzing their pants over.
Quit your bitching, you bunch of fucking pansies, spend $5.00 on some goddamn bags, and go shopping already. You're the same dumb sons-of-bitches who complained about switching to unleaded gas and banning CFCs. Quit being so fucking insanely selfish, and so something good.
wow, i think the really notable thing about tonight's Plastic Bag Hearings is that it's the first time the business community and town fathers in seattle have ever argued strenuously on behalf of the poor. let the disingenuousness wash over you...
But you're not getting rid of 2% (that number's a flat-out lie to begin with, by the way). You're not getting rid of the produce bags, which the advocacy groups are including in their scare numbers. You're not getting rid of any bags in any of the million other places outside of Seattle -- the 90% of the state that lives outside the city. You're hardly getting rid of anything at all. All you're doing is creating another city office to administer the fucking thing, so ten people will get paid to distribute the inevitable happy-slogan posters and account for the income and dispersal. It's a clusterfuck of nothingness.
I suggest they ban frowning next.
And no, Gitai, I'm not actually the same dumb son-of-a-bitch who complained about unleaded gas. The unleaded gas switch produced massive visible results.
Actually the city of Seattle does accept plastic grocery bags. In my building we can toss them into the recyling dumpster as long as they are bundled into one bag tied at the top. Check the city website (too lazy to provide the link).
They may be downcycled per ECB @12, but it's still better than nothing. I keep a few around to bring my lunch to work, but the rest go into the dumpster. Now I have room under my kitchen sink to actually store my Costco-sized supply of cleaning products...
@5
Kristin Bell: Send an email to webmaster@thestranger.com. No need to post. It's nearly certain that you will be interrupting Anthony Hecht jerking off to internet porn, but there is no non-jerking off time when you can reach him. It can't be helped, and he is totally nice about it. On the plus side, he will work hard to solve your problem fast so he can get back to, you know, jerking off to porn. He's not the kind of IT guy who keeps jerking off while solving your problem, which is good to know if you ask me.
ECB, can you explain why this law won't have the unintended consequence of making us complacent? Instead of going after the big sources of plastic pollution (e.g. bottles) we're going to think we've sacrificed enough by giving up these penny-ante plastic bags.
I personally feel that we will run after we walk, but in the past your position has been that baby steps aren't good enough for Planet Earth.
@16 because they're expensive as hell.
50 biobags cost the same as 150 plastic bags. I buy them, but it pisses me off.
All that stuff adds up. To avoid spending more at the grocery store, I drive OUT of the city to WINCO and buy lots of my food in bulk. (There is a QFC a block away from my house, but even with more expensive gas, I can spend roughly half and get the same amount of groceries)
The produce I buy from a CSA in Fall City. Or walk to the farmer's market.
I get my milk from Smith brothers delivered for free.
But as we're looking at ways to cut our budget to survive, it's freaking difficult to justify paying 3 times as much for 2/3 less product on everything from garbage bags to non toxic laundry soap to organic food.
If the city is serious about sustainability, they should include biodegradable garbage bags at a significant discount or subsidize them with some of their 45 million dollars from the Sonics.
I was in Taiwan last year and they have a 40 cent? fee for plastic bags. Which I didn't realize until the 3rd time I went shopping at a convenience store when I brought my own bag. Trust me, nobody will forget their own bags at home after the 3rd time if it costs them 20 cents a piece.
73 cents or 99 cents is quite cheap for a reuseable bag. Cut a few cheeseburgers at McDonalds out of your diet and your set.
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EJB: ah, but then we should make it illegal to sell the non-decompostable ones, no? Otherwise we just exchange one free-rider problem for another. If the problem is HDPE tissue in dumps, then well, wouldn't outlawing that be the target, in any form, and not just one small sliver of that?? The vast majority of those bags end up in dumps as containers of waste. As such they will be replaced by the most economic alternative. That isn't poly-glycoside polymer sheet bags. It's simply other versions of HDPE.
kinaidos -- because you have to start somewhere. It's easier to expand on it once a rule is established. If we wait until we have every detail figured out, it will be too late.
de facto tax on food
illegal in this state - wait for the supremes to side with poor people
and yes, this is trivial compared to pollution by industry
guilt trip the every day people to the end of the earth, and let industry off the big hook
for once fnarf and I agree
plastic bags are VERY sanitary, and used over and over in my circle of friends, ending up full of vile garbage and dog/cat waste
go figure
the power of the state vs. education and reasoned choices
erica, take a breath, your narratives are almost top volume infantile
How about this - an option to read SLOG with all the ECB irrational ranting and whining filtered out? I'd pay 20 cents for that.
@3 and anyone else who cares about the best estimate of the truth...
The city commissioned a study of the effects of the bag fee and the banning of expanded foam food service containers. The report is available (pdf) on the city's website. If you look at pp. 6-26 through 6-29 you'll find the best estimate is that the plastic ban will create a higher environmental burden as well as a higher financial burden.
The report is here.
I can't find where anyone addresses this. All the talk is about the damned plastic bags. Am I fucking crazy? Am I fucking stoopid? Well, anyway, why do we want to do this now?
One of the funniest things about this is that part of the money collected is supposed to go to creating educational materials about recycling and reusing bags. Which essentially means taxing garbage for the sole purpose of creating more garbage. The only winners here are printers and postal carriers.
Thank god for Fnarf.
The elephant in the room, though, is the overproduction and overconsumption of consumer goods, not the bags one takes it all home in.
Many people, myself included, could stand to eat less food, and buy less stuff, which would also make less garbage, and use less energy and natural resources.
Being encouraged to bring crap home in my own bag does not solve the waste that is inherent in consumer culture.
All that said, it really should be an individual choice to buy less, and to bring one's own bag to the store. Paying a bag tax to fund a city bureaucracy sounds pretty wasteful to me.
From my own economic perspective, it's pretty hard to get wound up about this tax. Let's say I use 5 bags every two weeks (about how much I go to the grocery and, give or take, how many bags I use each visit). That's a whopping $26 a year.
I think you'd have to be very poor to not be able to come up with this amount of money over the course of a year. Very, very poor.
Which reveals the true fault of the tax: it's not high enough. I'm not going to cut down on my consumption of plastic bags over a measly two dimes. But if you charge me $5 a bag, I'll be carrying my recyclable bags faster than you can say depleted 401(k).
When you find yourself complementing Richard McIver, JUST FOR BREATHING, you know you've been there too long.
expect action within the next 6 to 24 months
erica, did you know you are a fascist little idiot and a lame editor?
Boring.
Recently I visited Dublin and made a stop for groceries... as I was paying, I noticed there was no one bagging my groceries, nor really any grocery bags to speak of. Confused, I asked the checkout woman where the bags were to bag my groceries- she informed me that a bag would cost 30 Euro cents (approx. 47 cents)
I paid for my bag, and I must say I felt better for it; That tax was a reminder of the waste we take for granted... the waste that is slowly collecting into a garbage island in the Pacific Ocean. Being reminded of that, I honestly can't say I'd be adverse to seeing an (admittedly less burdensome) tax for plastic bags in Seattle.
So, that being said- the only remaining concern I have is the tax on paper bags; I know they consume trees... but it stands to reason that because they can be recycled, that the monetary burden (as a reflection of environmental damage created) would inevitably be less then that of plastic.
I'm far more comfortable thinking about people shopping with paper bags (if canvas is not an option for whatever reason) and as you stated in your post, I think there should be monetary incentives to achieve this goal.
If this passes, my dog's poop stays on your lawn. xo
@39 Don't newspapers come in plastic bags here? Just get a subscription to the PI... you get something to read, and a handy plastic bag for the poop. Problem solved.
I just have to say one thing about this "LiveSlog" that really wasn't:
Enough with the the self-righteousness.
Isn't there a way we can get this without the Enviro-Nazi commentary? Something UNbiased, perhaps?
I'm sorry, but these supermarkets are from the same industry that made "paper or plastic" a household phrase, right?
Paper bags have no fee, right?
Seattlites -- are they really this dumb?
"Isn't there a way we can get this without the Enviro-Nazi commentary? Something UNbiased, perhaps?"
Dear, I didn't know you were homebound! I would have put you on my weekly list of invalids that I make Blanc Mange for.
I can certainly understand, dear TheMisanthrope (can I call you Misty?) how aggravating it must be to sit there, stuck in your house, unable to attend public meetings in person, and having to listen to Enviro-Nazi commentary from known Feminist hippies like Erica.
But there are other websites, you know - or has some awful liberal "caregiver" limited you just to The Stranger?
Wow. I'm from the midwest, land of corn, republicans and die-hard lutherans, and I have never heard people up in arms about plastic bags. Now granted, we haven't been banning them, but here are my issues:
1) This really isn't going to be an economic burden for ANYBODY. Don't use an economic excuse when you are really upset because you are forgetful, or lazy, or stubborn. Even if you bought 10 reusable bags and stored them in your trunk, that would be around 10 dollars. If you can't afford a 1.00 bag at the grocery or department store, why not pick up one of the 10 million totebags floating around at thrift stores or garage sales for 10 cents? Isn't part of the push to ban plastics and other non-biodegradable objects to create a kind of public awareness about what kind of shit we've done to our environment? So, wouldn't like, having to think about it kind of accomplish some of that?
2) Furthermore, what kinda backwards ass grocery stores do you have out there? Here, they've been charging a nickel per bag (plastic or paper) for as long as I can remember, and have waived that fee if you brought your own reusable bag. This works on the premise that you bringing your own bag saves them from having to buy bags.
3) Haven't you fancy West Coasters ever heard of Sam's Club, the store of the Beast? They don't give you any bags- they make you carry it out in a box you've rummaged from their leftover shipping containers. If you can't find a box, you are left to carry your mass quantities of Post-Its and Cheetos out in your bare hands.
4) Why are you getting so up in arms about the idea proposed about getting more expensive environment friendly trash bags. If you get 50 for the price of 150 earth destroying ones, might that encourage you to, oh, I don't know... throw out less shit in the first place? Or you could go completely batshit like my dad (self described "environmental whack job") and refuse to put your garbage in a bag. Sure, it makes your garbage can all gunky, and it maybe pisses off the garbage man, but in 25 years, he hasn't bagged his garbage on garbage day. If you figure 2 bags a week, times 52 weeks, times 25 years, that's kind of a shit load of plastic he didn't send to the landfill.
5) Plastic water bottle bans are a great idea. Reusable water bottles are awesome. Plastic water bottles are just ridiculously wasteful, in addition to the fact that the type of plastic they use for them is putting off all kinds of dangerous shit into our water. First they came for Seattle's plastic bags, next I hope they get your water bottles, too!
Please! Erica! Ron Sims! Mayor Nickels! Protect us common folk from ourselves! We are ignorant, and without your guidance, we would certainly not survive!
@43 Dear Ms Du-Vey,
Please realize that I was directly quoting ECB from one of her comments in a previous post of hers. Now, please, move on with your unironic bad self.
Fuck you,
TheMisanthrope.
Here is the comment for reference, in case you were bitchy enough to challenge that fact. See comment 18.
The Chinook Book has coupons for free shopping bags from PCC, QFC, and T&C Markets.
Or you could just bring a back pack or large purse.
Using "biobags" for garbage doesn't make much sense - they are made to be composted, not to rot anaerobically in a landfill and contribute to methane harvesting.
Most of what we buy comes in plastic. If your garbage is so wet that you can't use a paper bag to carry it out to your bin (which it shouldn't be if you're composting your food waste), can't you put your trash in one of the other plastic bags you've thrown away? Like a cereal bag or produce bag.
Every argument ECB disagrees with is, perforce, disingenuous.
Clint @10 wins with the special olympics comment by the way.
why hasn't anyone brought up the fact that these bags are a petroleum product and that a reduction in our use of plastics could potentially reduce the demand for petroleum?
PopTart @8 is the most insightful, with Fnarf @20 as the runner up.
The reality is that the amount of packaging in products we buy that are specifically designed to not be recycled has GROWN since WW II. You used to be able to buy a box of cereal without a bag inside it - but the box could be recycled. Now the bag is not recyclable.
This will all lead to a consumer revolt in Seattle as most of us, who think ECB and you freaks are getting in our face too much replace the current dysfunctional city council and file and pass overwhelmingly a citizen's initiative.
Mark my words - there will be blood.
@42, all disposable bags at grocery, drug and convenience stores will have a fee. Plastic AND paper. Please make a note of it. This issue has been discussed like 3,492 times on Slog.
@44, in response to your comment about never having heard of people up in arms about plastic bags, well, that is what we do here in the beautiful Northwest. People get up in arms about, well, just about anything. A change occurs, or is suggested, everyone freaks, we spend 2-3 years discussing, and either kill the proposal with inaction or end up with a namby-pamby solution that satisfies no one. It is our way. Why, just in the recent memory the people of Seattle have gotten up in arms about townhouses, condos, bike lanes, a third runway, plastic bags, styrofoam containers, mandatory food scrap composting, transit, buses, bridges, a streetcar, a monorail, building height restrictions, a viaduct, plastic bags, a Denny's, a bowling alley, plastic bags, a children's hospital, a basketball team, a tent city for the homeless, pit bulls, plastic bags, nightclubs, the tear-down of a decrepit rat-infested crack house, urban density, and plastic bags. Come to think of it, with all the outrage and hand-wringing, I'm amazed that anyone here can get out of bed in the morning. I know I'm exhausted.
@47 -- I'm glad someone pointed this out. Biobags aren't any better than plastic when you're talking about bags of garbage in a landfill. They only degrade in open/turned landfills, which (correct me if I'm wrong please) I don't think any of the ones around here are.
@42, paper bags will also be subject to the 20 cent fee. Which is good because they're not much better than plastic (and some would argue they are even worse, since making and recycling paper bags creates twice the air/water pollution that making/recycling plastic bags does).
Erica, I'd like to know where you got the info about the City of Seattle NOT actually recycling the vast majority of plastic bags that we put INTO the recycling bins. You're saying the City takes "most" of the plastic bags we've bundled together and put in our recycling bins OUT of the recycling and puts them in a landfill instead? Can you please cite a source for that? If that's truly the case, I think that's really important information!!
Why not just a refundable deposit instead?
Like with pop bottles in most states?
@52 Erica doesn't cite sources.
As long as I'm entitled to feed free plastic six-pack rings to baby sea-turtles, I'll be happy.
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