You do realize that farmers keep different schedules than the rest of us, right?

SO TRUE. I used to work down there and was way disappointed when I realized that there would be no after-work browsing for flowers, honey, or tiny stuffed lizards with sequins on them.

The #1 reason PPM blows is because it's for tourists. I hate it. Fucking throw your camera away, idiot. Do you really need a picture of everything to remind you that it happened? You saw something 2,000,000,000,000,000,00000303578230967873489672 people have already seen before. Congratulations. Oh, and be sure your group of four walks in a bundle and not single file. And walk slow. Very slow. Because it's really amazing that they're throwing fish. And selling fish. And veggies. And stupid jewelry. Omg isn't this fuN! Now go home and take some awesome pictures of the skyline, because nobody sees that either.

The hours are great if you work normal hours downtown. They're also open weekends.

This idea has been floated many times. The merchants seem to resist it for the sake of tradition.
One has to wonder what the Market would look and be like if it had the revenue of extra hours for the last few decades.
Would this year's levy be necessary?

@2 So Bad day, I presume you've never been a tourist anywhere? Ok, STFU then. Thanks.

Downtown Seattle turns into a fucking ghost town after 5pm. Every downtown business should be open until at least 9pm. I can't believe that some stores in downtown malls close up at 6pm on a Sunday, when there are still crowds of people.

oops, meant @3,

Keep it open later and close Pike Place to traffic, at least on the weekends!

@9 I think Pike Place should be close to all but delivery traffic all the way down to Virginia Street.

It's a very good point, especially for people who work until 5 pm and take transit to get there.

I have to agree- I work until 5PM- I consider that "normal" hours. Not a dinky donut or piroshky in sight! How about getting DINNER at the market? peh. Forget it. I bet I would have spent at LEAST $520 there last year on fruits and veggies for dinner.

Someday, I'm going to drive my car down Pike Place just for fun. I've never done it, but I've seen so many other people do it, and it looks like so much fun!

I wish they were open later than they are too but that is the way the cookie crumbles.

I also avoid the fucking Market from May until early October to make sure most of the tourist freaks have gone.

@4, if you keep normal business hours maybe. Even still, it is right around six that I even start to think about planning diner. Once I get my shoes on to go get food products, it is too late for Pike Place market and off to the Broadway QFC I go.

It seems like such a waste of valuable public space to me. Who

Totally. For a while last winter we were buying all of our produce there, but in the spring it just becomes unbearable with the onslaught of tourists. The slow crowds, cars, jostling, and posing for photos makes it an agonizing experience. Also, I really can't imagine why Pike Place isn't closed off to cars. It would make the market a grillion times more enjoyable and give everyone some room to spread out.

I will brave the crowds for DeLaurenti, though. That place rulez, and the boys behind the deli counters are worth the hassle.

@14 Cato, you use the word tourist as if it is a pejorative. They bring money in, the enable many of our festivals to exist due to their attending, and they allow The Stranger website to earn ad revenue from d-bags like you who come on here and bitch about tourists personally inconveniencing them.

@5, if the market stayed open later locals my be temped to actually shop there. Tourists would stay longer as well but all in all more money for the market. I think they should consider changing the hours and see the financial impact before putting the 75million dollar levy put on the ballot.

Word! The whole damn town (with a few exceptions) seems wedded to the idea of early hours. Yes, town. Not city. A city has a nightlife.

Maybe with more condos going in within walking distance of the market they will wise up and stay open later... But then, this is Seattle...

@17, why don't you go fuck yourself with some produce from the market then?

Ahh... see the tourists are the best part though. The secret to dealing with them is to get smug and basically barge yourself through their cow-like-selves. How can you rationalize being an asshole? Easy, see, you are actually going there buying the produce, not just gawking at it and making stupid remarks about how it is all organic (once overheard: "jesus, even the noodles are organic...").

Try it. Be an asshole. Fuck the tourists. You are there to buy stuff. They can all go to hell.

PS I have nothing against tourists, and enjoy being one in many other cities. Just that the sheer number of people crowded into the market makes it hard to actually shop.

Who the fuck gets to leave work at 5pm these days? Pike Place being open until 8 would not just improve the market, but improve the neighborhood.

@17, can you sit and spin on my arm? Ride is over when you hit the elbow.

Ahh... see the tourists are the best part though. The secret to dealing with them is to get smug and basically barge yourself through their cow-like-selves. How can you rationalize being an asshole? Easy, see, you are actually going there buying the produce, not just gawking at it and making stupid remarks about how it is all organic (once overheard: "jesus, even the noodles are organic...").

Try it. Be an asshole. Fuck the tourists. You are there to buy stuff. They can all go to hell.

I know that the serpentine networks of Market employees that work together/know each other from other shops love that it closes at 6pm. That's Happy Hour!

My favorite Market code-question (at the fish stand) is: You need that packed on ice? "No" gets you mo' better.

It's been that way for a hundred years, I don't expect them to change anytime soon. Actually, I think it was controversial to get weekend opening. But I expect this to be more of an issue as more people live downtown.

If you think downtown is a ghost town now after 6, you should have seen it in the 70s.

I wholeheartedly agree. The few times I've shopped there for dinner on weeknights were the few times I had the luxury of taking an extended shopping break during the middle of the workday, because if I go after I'm done for the day most vendors are already closed up. And it's not like I'm coming from far away, I work at 1st and Stewart.

I'm not going to bitch about the tourists, I've learned to live with them, but yeah, I think we would all benefit from extended weeknight hours.

Tourism is a actually a very important part of our economy here. How important?

http://www.visitseattle.org/bureau/tourismmatters/

Fnarf, I usually agree with you, so don't take it personally, but just because downtown after-hours sucked hard in the 70s doesn't mean has to still suck today!

QQ

When people talk about density in Seattle don't they realize there needs to be a cultural shift towards acceptance of what density entails such as goods and services for people living in truly urban neighborhoods?

@32, yes, they do. See the new IGA on 3rd. The Market's been a tourist trap for decades, and as long as it keeps reeling them in and we keep shelling out those levy $, it's got no impetus to change its business model to focus on downtown dwellers.

I completely agree. I live downtown, and should be a natural target for the produce and other goods sold at the Market. But, they close so damn early that I've just stopped even considering going there. 8 pm would be nice. 9 pm would be great.

And, contrary to popular belief, that nightlife in Seattle is picking up dramatically.

Blah @31, I didn't say it has to suck, or should suck, I said it's unlikely to stop sucking based on a hundred years of history.

Sad, I just read over the whole propaganda site and nary a mention of extended hours (http://www.ci.seattle.wa.us/mayor/issues/MarketLevy/).

If they pull the same thing pioneer square does with a business improvement district tax thingy they could make all these improvements.

Oh wait... that might require them to actually serve the neighborhood (read, generate revenue) instead of waste space. Naw... lets instead have a levy and sell monkey paws, gee-gaws and tacky "lets make a pun on Seattle + Rain" t-shirts--only with air conditioning.

I hate to sound like an ass but seriously. We are gonna have a democratic majority in the federal level (a very good thing), but I'm beginning to question our own state and local democrat majorities. Our political atmosphere in this place is stale and starting to smell. I think the joint needs to clean house.

I think a lot of people want Pike Place Market to be an open air grocery store. It's appealing, but then I put some thought into it.

Longer hours for the market means that the vendors will have to stay longer, or hire more staff. Sure they might make more money, but that money would go to hiring assistants or a few more hours of daycare. Compared to farmers markets, where it's slim pickings if you show up around noon on a Saturday, still having some options after 2pm is pretty good deal. I also think it'd be awesome if I could do more of my food shopping after work down at Pike Place, but I don't see it happening without losing the Market Charm (multiple small, local vendors, personal interaction, trustworthy sources).

Can anyone name an open-air market anywhere in the states that is open after 6pm? I found the Los Angeles Farmers Market (M-F 9-9, Sat 9-8, Sun 10-7), but I've never been.

1)It's a FARMER'S market not your fuckin' local Safeway. The market people are there for 12 HOURS already. Not sure if it would be in their economic best interest to stay open another 2 or three hours because some lazy, whiny yuppies and hipsters MIGHT go shopping.

2)If it weren't for those awful tourists, it would have been torn down decades ago. Also; what the fuck are YOU when YOU go on vacation? You're still a gawdamned tourist regardless if you're hanging out at the local tourist traps OR spending your vacation getting trashed in the local hipster version of Cha Cha or The Comet trying to score some coke and get laid.

3)Go on the Weekend

4)There are farmers markets ALL over the city now...go to one of them.

This, plus there is fuck-all going on above Third and south of University every weekday after 5 PM.

If PPM were open until 8, it would be the best urban market in the country.

Farmer bob isn't taking time out of his day to drive to Seattle to sell you produce. Sorry, that fantasy just isn't reality. The reality is that the people selling them are just regular joes who could have worked at QFC but decided to work at the Pike Place Market

What the hell is the point of the pike place market if it closes so damn early nobody in the area can use it?

What is the point of even trying to sell fresh produce if the neighborhood around it cannot purchase it?

Do they just let it sit there so tourists can take pretty pictures of it?

Until it serves the needs of the neighborhood around it, Pike Place market is a *waste* of valuable public space. Let the tourists go buy their crappy trinkets on the waterfront.. the noise from the viaduct makes it useless for anything but.

And by the way, as a place to buy food, **IT COMPETES WITH FUCKING SAFEWAY**. And right now it *loses miserably* to Safeway, QFC, Whole Foods, Amazon.com, and everything else in the grocery world.

PPS: At least on capitol hill, I stopped going to the farmers market once they stopped selling cheap ass wads of basil and good tomatoes and instead started selling beads, smelly crap and assorted art. I go to a farmers market for quality produce, not fucking incense.

basically crk on bellevue ave's point boils down to this; PPM market is fishermans wharf with too much fucking produce and fish that nobody actually buys.

You nailed it my Bellevue Ave friend.

what can i say, people that live on bellevue ave are just a cut above the rest.

Poe lives on bellevue ave.

Some enterprising whippersnapper should buy a sampling of selections from the regular early bird farmers and set up a late-night stand re-selling at a prime time price.

Beyond the fresh stuff, there are plenty of fine places to have an evening drink and/or dinner in the market, and many of those restaurants get their stuff from the farmers/producers there.

Most people in Seattle are clueless about what's going on at the Market and how to get the best out of it. It can be done; it's not as easy as Safeway or QFC, but isn't that the point? I just wish they still had the $1 parking for under 1 hour.

Hey retards. Have you ever worked at the market? Most vendors can barely afford to keep themselves afloat, let alone hire additional staff to run the fucking place from 9 to 9, as you would have it. I worked there for over two years and have sat through many a dreary 27˚ Sunday from 9 to 5 only to make my base pay of 25 dollars and another $6-10 commission. Granted, it would be nice to be able to do some grocery shopping after work, it's not as if these stands pay the poor employees x amount of cents for each tomato they hock. If they could guarantee that people would in fact make good use of the market's extended hours, it might be worth their while to haul all their shit in from out of town and stay a lot longer. But in reality, it just is not feasible for farmers to do this. They're already losing money as it is. Until you understand how difficult it is to keep Pike Place's head above water, you have no right to complain about it not being open late enough for you to buy some organic tomatoes or some crappy earrings for your wife. There is absolutely no incentive.

P.S. I hadn't read post #37 or #38 before I wrote this because I was really angry and had to write, but regardless I agree with them wholeheartedly. Again, where is the incentive for the farmers to stay? It's not worth their fucking time.

P.P.S. Read this article. The market already does a lot to make produce shopping reasonably accessible for locals.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2004440068_pikeplace27m.html

To paraphrase the immortal words of Yogi Berra, "Nobody goes to the Market, it's too crowded."

The point being, people who are already working their butts off to cater to the tourists, downtown office workers, and those few with flexible schedules who do venture down there during "regular hours" just don't have the personnel or financial resources to extend the extra two hours - just to make it a little more convenient for the handful of locals who MIGHT come down between 6:00 & 8:00 p.m.

What would be more likely to happen is that the Market would be only slightly LESS crowded during that period than it is the rest of the time during the summer, and locals would continue to complain just as bitterly about not being able to whisk from one stall to another through pristinely empty corridors, and would continue to stay away, just as they do now, completely negating any possible benefit to the merchants, most of whom are already operating on razor-thin margins as it is.

This is a lead-trial balloon that's been floated several times that I'm aware of, and the simple fact is, increasing the operating hours just doesn't pencil out in the cost-benefit analysis.

Sorry, whiny ones, but you'll just have to keep shopping at Madison Mark-up, PCC, or your weekly neighborhood Farmers' Market for your organic rainbow chard.

Also, Fisherman's Warf, like most of the waterfront, is fairly easy to avoid and keeps all the tourists well confined (and for the record, I do *not* visit tourist traps when I go on vacation).

Either declare Pike Place Market a tourist trap and stop enticing me produce or get with the program. The only way I'd vote yes on that Pike Place Market levy was if they at least dropped in something about extending the hours. The propaganda for the levy waxes poetic about "meeting the needs of the neighborhood", but without extended hours it could be an outdoor Farmers-Costco, Farmers-Home Depot and Farmers-Target and it would still be useless to me.

I have no interest in improving tourist traps (it is vapid consumerism at its worst). Just let me know where I stand.

Dont lie to me with "neighborhood improvement" or "historic preservation" so you can piss away sixty or so million dollars of my taxes to air condition "I my " t-shirt shops.

marginal cost exeedes marginal revenue. but the problem here is that locals are being asked to sink money into a project that only functions as a tourist trap, and is not a premiere attraction or destination of the seattle/puget sound tourism area(Seriously, people are not coming to Seattle primarily to see pike place market. it's an secondary attraction that people go to because they are in the vicinity.)

If the market isn't self sustaining then perhaps the problem is with the business model of the market and if the locals are being asked to subsidize the market locals should see a clear benefit in doing so.

What are you guys, bankers or something? Here is an idea... instead of hiring more people, just shift your damn hours to noon->8pm or something, eh? See how that works? Same amount of hours, only now you can actually serve your neighborhood.

And again, my Bellevue Ave neighbor nails it. No way in hell am I voting for your levy. No way. I have no interest in subsidizing the poodle dog shirt & plastic space needle industry.

You can cry me a river about whatever, but them's the facts. To be frank, your problems aren't my problems any more then how they staff people working at AM/PM's overnight (and sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is the honest truth).

Right now your market is what I consider a massive waste of public space in a really, really gorgeous building sitting on prime land next to a neighborhood that has squat for groceries.

There is no reason y'all cannot be commercially viable, but it will take a change of attitude. That would require you to think about the needs of the locals instead of tourists.

PS: I have nothing against the tourists. Just those who cannot differentiate between our ferries and cargo ships (I've heard this asked twice).

MOL has the best logo for cargo shippers ever.

I like how all of the people who, you know, actually want to shop at the market are being called retarded whiny yuppies.

But you know what? Let's try this: let the farmers go home at 5. Let them. They're honest, hard-working, salt of the earth types. Each and every one of them.

But then make all of the people who sell t-shirts, jewelery, comic books, Seattle memorabilia, used books, bongs, and such... make those people stay open until 9pm. They're setting up shop in a historic, highly trafficked area in a major metropolitan city. If they can't handle staying open until 9pm - allow them to fail, just like any other business.

I couldn't give a damn about those stores down there that sell the same shit as Value Village for twenty times the price. Make those people stay open later.

And by the way, so I dont sound full of shit... here are useful shops to me that close at 6:

- That knife shop so I can sharpen my knife (seriously, where do you go to get this? I dont trust QFC with my knife).
- That place that sells olive oils (or is this a tourist trap that doesn't sell anything)
- The several produce stands
- The place in the market that sells sausage
- The place that sells organic pasta
- All those spice merchants (or is this a tourist trap that doesn't sell anything)

Cooking is an "in thing", especially using higher end ingredients. Especially in an mid to upper class neighborhood (and surrounding area) like Capitol Hill and Queene Anne. There is no, zero, reason for any of those places to close at six.

They dont want my business? Fuck them. I'll just go support chain stores like Whole Foods and internet retailers instead.

Seriuosly, when they close at 6pm, how the fuck do any of those specialty shops stay afloat? Do tourists really buy fucking knives, olive oil and spices when the visit? Do they really go "gee honey, lets buy this red peper and cook it in our hotel room?" WTF?

Nice, Strangeways. Swinging and landing 'em!

Are all you inconvenienced people on some unusual 10-6, 7 day a week work schedule? If so, may I suggest: QFC. Advantage Card. 24-7. Oftentimes you can get like three for five bucks and you can save like (on the upper margin) like 40 cents per. That is huge. Market don't got that.

"save"

those cards are market information tools and the information you provide for $.20-$1 leads to the most efficient pricing for clearing the market of said goods which often times is higher as an end result of research.

We're bored.

Can you go play in traffic with some cyclists?

uh, no.

The Market is a huge tourist attraction that helps bring in millions of tourist dollars. Of course, it's not the only reason people come here, but it is an iconic presence and part of the whole Seattle package. You remove or change too many pieces of the package and people stop coming. And as for the tourists, they're only a menace for three or four months out of the year...the rest of the time the Market is pretty laid back. And going to the Market or Seattle Center in the summertime and bitching about the awful tourists is like going to France and bitching about the French. At certain times of the year, you're on THEIR (the tourists) turf. Deal with it, or stay away.

Is CRK mentally challenged? Or just pulling our leg, cause the posts are so inane, they sound fake. And JC, why do you want t-shirt stands staying open until 9pm for your convenience? That doesn't make any sense. The majority of the non-food shops in the Market are pretty much geared exclusively towards tourists.

Downtown folks, if you want to shop at the Market, it's pretty simple. Go on the weekend, or if you also work downtown, go on your lunchbreak. The delicious crispy fruits and vegetables you purchased on Sunday will continue to be delicious throughout the week if you keep them in your crisper! And, if that doesn't work for you and if living downtown is such a fucking hardship, then don't live there. No one forced you to live there.

Who are you people actually defending this place trying to stay open until six?

Any defenders answer me this:

What should the role of the Pike Place Market be?

Come on, people... Sure, I'd be one of the first to spend more time there if the hours worked better for locals.

But are you really not able to see past your own noses? You do realize that even if it's "just a tourist trap" it's providing jobs, generating sales tax, and attracting tourists who need lodging, food, souvenirs, etc. elsewhere.

THINK about how much money the Market is generating for our city and your services before you just dismiss it as a waste of space...

@38 and 56: It's not about being inconvenienced. None of these commenters are starving to death for lack of fresh produce. I think everyone here knows the location of their nearest QFC.

It's about actually wanting to support these businesses and not being able to. Plus, we're being asked to fund an expensive upgrade this November, and the question is... why should we, when it is of almost no benefit to us?

Um, that was sort of my point @55: tourists AREN'T the primary customers for most of the shops you mention, so, apparently, there are already plenty of locals who - somehow, through some miraculous method of teleportation or whatever - manage to make it down to the Market, and negotiate the meandering herds of tourists with sufficient accumen to keep these businesses open - without requiring them to extend their hours for the benefit of the handful of whiny, self-entitled cry-babies who seem to believe THEIR priorities should be EVERYONES priorities.

Get over yourselves. Obviously, the folks running those stores have already.

How about having the market open until 8 or 9pm once or twice a week, like Tuesday and Thursday?

Or having a trial program, where the market vendors who are interested can stay open later for a few weeks or a month or so, to see what the evening traffic/business is like from locals?

There's no way to tell whether or not people will actually shop in the evenings unless they are given the opportunity to do so.

Strangeways, if it was a successful tourist attraction then it wouldn't need public funding to sustain itself or at least sustain the capital improvements it supposedly needs.

This is where the gripe is coming from. Why does a supposedly important and primary attraction need local funding if it is so successful in attracting tourists?

There already exists a hotel tax which funds most if not all of the Seattle Convention Center's budget (and which Frank Chopp raided the rainy day and capital improvement fund for his pet projects). You can draw a clear business and economic relationship between the services provided by the convention center and the business generated in room nights, etc and the taxes paid in by hotels.

Is there any way for PPM to recoup the supposed tourist dollars it generates and if not why not? The biggest problem hurdle is that we're being asked to shell out millions to make improvements to a place that theoretically only really makes cheddar 3-4 months a year.

The folks running those stores are protected by the city. Take away their city protection (i.e. let them stay open as long as they want) and they'd all fail (and good riddance).

The only reason most shops are against removing any regulated hours is because they all know they'd go under the second somebody in the market stayed open past 6.

The market is speaking, and instead of meeting the needs of it, the businesses at PPM would rather run to the city for protection (i.e. regulated hours).

COMTE, why should business owners need my tax dollars for upgrades and improvements if they have sufficient acumen to run a business?

Comte is right.

Tourists aren't buying crates of strawberries and plums and swordfish and mussels to take home with them on the plane or boat. It's locals and daytrippers from suburbia and "tourists" from Spokane who buy the majority of the food products at the Market.

Tax dollars are used to fund all sorts of things for all sorts of reasons. The Market helps generate MILLIONS of dollars and supports thousands of jobs for the local economy. I don't have kids but I don't begrudge the state for taxing me to fund schools. Major corporations get huge tax breaks to locate, stay in, or expand their interests in a city or state. Stop being a baby because you can't buy arugula at 8pm or because you might have to shell out a $ or two to support something important, regardless if you like it or have any use for it. If supporting tourist traps irritates you, then move to Topeka. They don't have any to fund...(well, except for the NASCAR track).

The only babies crying are the ones about how hard it to compete in a free market. If the market is so damn viable, why does it need this levy?

And again, I ask you, what should the role of Pike Place Market be?

Strangeways, why is PPM important enough to flush tax dollars away into if I fundamentally disagree on the importance of PPM, and fail to see why improvements need to be made.

I reckon the market would generate millions of dollars and provide hundreds of jobs with or without this tax levy and that instead of taxing homeowners of Seattle on the back of the parks levy, they simply capture the millions of dollars the market generates.

They do it with the hotels tax. They do it in other cities with toll roads. Why can't they do the same thing here with a fraction of a % sales tax on things near the market?

Furthermore the love it or leave attitude is ridiculous and the most intellectually hollow argument anyone on Slog ever makes. And it's made by some pretty bright people too. The people that hate something are residents of the city too and should be able to sculpt the city closer to what they want it to be.

Bellevue @ 57. I hear ya. An insidiously good feeling.

Free Market = Big Fat Steaming Pile of Myth.

Or haven't you-all been reading the newspapers lately?

Oh my God this is such a stupid thread. It reads like something from Sound Politics, where the brain trust is suggesting selling City Light to fund the park system. Can we nominate this for the stupid thread hall of fame? If there isn't a hall of fame, can we create one?

I never ever set foot in the market, and I didn't even know about the market levy before this, but I am definitely voting for it now, in honor of this stupid, stupid thread.

yeah comte, and actors are forced to be actors as it is their divine lot in life.

The city you'd like Seattle to be, would have all the appeal of Boise, Idaho.

You'd love it. Go. Stay. Savor. Buy a house there.

Please.

no, i think I'll vote on these matters and live with the consequences. Why don't you support democracy strangeways? You're acting like the vote already happened and im complaining that i lost. we are discussing the merits of voting one way or another. get it together.