Slog - Comments on Re: Welfare: OK If You�re Christian!

Comment by Wolf

Wolf — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:34:32 -0800

Gay bar or clown car, I still wouldn't order a drink there.

Comment by Fnarf

Fnarf — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:35:20 -0800

If my math is right, that's a 97% chance of gay for the youngest one. Given the circumstances, I predict one hell of a Republican airport toilet scandal in about forty years.

Comment by David Wright

David Wright — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:35:59 -0800

That's an intriguing research result, but it's not very easy to envision a mechanism that could explain it. I mean, your DNA isn't changed by your birth order, so the pre-natal mechanism couldn't be genetic. Perhaps previously occupied wombs retain trace ammounts of a homosexuality-inducing chemical? In that case, you should see the effect in maternally related siblings but not paternally related siblings.

Comment by Dan Savage

Dan Savage — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:37:16 -0800

Go read the story, David, where you'll find an explanation/theory.

Comment by Ari Spool

Ari Spool — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:42:26 -0800

I was wondering earlier about how many of those children they'll have to disown... Which daughter is gonna get knocked up by a black boy? Which one is going to have a meth habit? Who's the pedophilic youth pastor? I bet by the time they die, they have at most 50% of the kids left, you know, morally.

Comment by elenchos

elenchos — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:44:19 -0800

My math says there's a 99% chance that at least two of them are going to write scandalous books about this family when they grow up.

ECB's anti-family, anti-parenting line of criticism is just as wacky as the quiver full people though.

Comment by Elyse

Elyse — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:44:45 -0800

In psychology class last year, a study was referenced that involved mothers pregnant during the London bombings of WWII and mothers pregnant after the bombings, I believe, and found that for the sons of the mothers under the intense stress of the bombings had a higher "homosexual turnout rate."

I would be willing to bet that the "mechanism" in question is simply the changing of hormones and estrogen as time goes on. When the mothers were under intense stress, their estrogen levels were much higher which affected their sons. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of similar connection here.

Comment by Wolf

Wolf — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:47:20 -0800

Someone needs a visit from the Sterile Fairy.

Comment by David Wright

David Wright — Wed, 14 May 2008 17:54:13 -0800

Dan @ 4: Now I have read the story, and their proposed mechanism is basically isomorphic to mine (replace "chemical" with "antibody"). That means that they should not see the effect in brothers related only by the father (i.e. half-brothers who are still the first male occupants of their respective mothers' wombs). And yet the story does not address this obvious test. If there data set is big enough includes lots of blended families, they should certainly be able to do this test.

Comment by Dominic Holden

Dominic Holden — Wed, 14 May 2008 18:20:56 -0800

Oh, dear God. I'm a living statistic: I have two older brothers; my oldest brother is straight, but me and the other brother are gayer than Richard Simmons doing Malibu shots to a Shirley Bassey remix album in a P-Town discoth�que.

Comment by sepiolida

sepiolida — Wed, 14 May 2008 18:28:16 -0800

I like how it says "nearly all" boys grow up straight. No comments on that, Dan?

Comment by Andy

Andy — Wed, 14 May 2008 18:48:41 -0800

@11, They do, sepiolida. Look at the world. But the chances that your third or fourth son is going to be gay are much higher than the chance that your first will be. That's all.

Comment by David Wright

David Wright — Wed, 14 May 2008 18:55:41 -0800

Agreed, Andy. I don't believe Dan has ever denied that gays constitute a rather small fraction of the male population.

Comment by Bob

Bob — Wed, 14 May 2008 19:09:25 -0800

Of course, this proves nothing in the endless nature vs nurture argument. I could argue it's all due to learning when certain family patterns exist - older brothers pick on younger brothers and use physical violence and blah blah blah and moms weigh in and rescue the weaker younger ones and blah blah blah and dads reject the now infantilized younger brothers and slap the backs of the older more macho blah blah blah.

Remember kids, correlation doesn't equal causation.

Comment by hm

hm — Wed, 14 May 2008 20:55:15 -0800

Bob @14-- if you read the article they specifically address that issue-- they found the correlation ONLY for boys who had older biological brothers, and not for boys who were raised with older adoptive or step brothers.

Comment by giantladysquirrels

giantladysquirrels — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:09:41 -0800

@8: At this point, I think the Prolapse Fairy is more likely.

Comment by mj

mj — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:25:48 -0800

From that picture I can tell that they are not only quiver full people but they are dresses only for the females! Those girls are destined to ugly jean skirts or jumpers until they are old enough to make their own decisions!
I'm all for people having as many kids as they want. I'm not for people who think they are promoting some Godly value when really they end up promoting an almost white supremacist attitude.
They would never admit that they do that but
they do!
I unfortunately have a lot of experience with people like this and they do not care for me or any of my ideas.
I still don't care how many children people have and I'm all for a stay at home mom!

Comment by OR Matt

OR Matt — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:26:50 -0800

I remember reading a similar article ... fascinating stuff. I guess they claimed there was a genetic link, gay runs in the family, but it was NEVER the oldest brother. Some environmental trigger obviously. And the more gay men I meet, they often do have gay brothers, but they are never the oldest.

Biology is awesome.

Comment by ellarosa

ellarosa — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:30:44 -0800

it's just a matter of percentages, as i understand it. the more boys you have, the greater the chance that one of them will be gay. and i read that it wasn't genetic as much as hormone/stress levels in the womb at the time of a particular gestation. it's not a done deal when egg meets sperm, but sometime later along the line that determines the sexual orientation of a fetus. i suppose when the exact mechanics of this is understood, people can chemically "load the dice" one way or the other while preggers.

Comment by CA

CA — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:31:45 -0800

For a gay man you spend a lot of time talking about vaginas Dan.

Comment by mj

mj — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:35:40 -0800

@19 My uncle is gay and he is the oldest brother.

Comment by Dan Savage

Dan Savage — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:37:15 -0800

That's what the pay me for, CA.

Comment by Judith

Judith — Wed, 14 May 2008 21:58:30 -0800

I have three cousins who are gay, all of whom are either the only boy or the oldest of three brothers.

Comment by ellarosa

ellarosa — Wed, 14 May 2008 22:13:09 -0800

21 and 23: that's how random percentages are. it might happen with the first kid, it might happen with the only kid. it's a law of averages. it's no guarantee, it's just that your chances go up when you have more.

say, you might have a one in 50 chance of having a gay kid in any given pregnancy (gays represent roughly 2% of the population worldwide). that doesn't mean you have to have 49 kids before you get a gay one.

Comment by keshmeshi

keshmeshi — Wed, 14 May 2008 22:28:15 -0800

So what's going to happen as family sizes get smaller?

If this is true, that's extremely sad for boys born in the Third World. Families there are far more likely to be large, like Quiverfull large, and those countries tend to be homophobic, if not virulently/violently homophobic.

Comment by Fnarf

Fnarf — Wed, 14 May 2008 23:26:28 -0800

@21 -- me too! Oh, wait -- it's the same guy.

Comment by Just took a stats class

Just took a stats class — Wed, 14 May 2008 23:57:13 -0800

When my therapist told me about this study, he said that the researchers had found a strong correlation, but that they could not prove causation. Gay men are more likely to have older brothers instead of men with older brothers being more likely to be gay.

That said, two of three sons in my family are gay. The oldest is straight.

Comment by Just took a stats class

Just took a stats class — Wed, 14 May 2008 23:57:49 -0800

That said, two of three sons in my family are gay. The oldest is straight.

Comment by Margaret

Margaret — Thu, 15 May 2008 00:03:40 -0800

Curiously, my oldest brother is straight, my middle brother is bi, and my youngest brother is gay. There may be something to it!

Comment by DW

DW — Thu, 15 May 2008 00:30:29 -0800

Summary of theory from my own readings, not the article:

Mom carries male child, build anti-male hormone antibodies.

Mom carries second male child, those now existing male antibodies can inhibit the functioning of the child's male hormones, which are very important in sexual development, which may lead to gayness.

Carrying this second male child increases likelihood , and # of anti-male hormone antibodies. Thus increasing the chance by 33% each time.

This is a developmental explanation, and not a genetic.

Another study I read which had to do with genes was a correlation found on the X, which in males is always/only inherited from the mother. And mothers could make their daughters carriers of this "gay X chromosome." So people can mull on that if they like.

Comment by DW

DW — Thu, 15 May 2008 00:36:04 -0800

Oh and I guess I'll share.

I'm the oldest and gay.
Second oldest is straight.
Third son, I think, is probably going to be gay.

Something people need take into consideration is the possibility of miscarriages before the birth of the oldest. I know that my mom had a few before the youngest brother, which leads me to think there may have been some before me.

And also the possible genetic origin, as mentioned previously.

Comment by Vince

Vince — Thu, 15 May 2008 07:03:21 -0800

From my perspective, only son and gay, I think this is an adaptation. I always felt that homosexuality was a natural form of birth control. If many boy births happen in a short time frame it makes sense to make some homosexual. Now this part some will find objectionable but a younger brother willing to be mounted by older siblings, in ancient and less taboo restricted times, would take pressure off females who at a young age were more likely to die in child birth or have high infant mortality rates. Then again, I could be insane.

Comment by bronkitis

bronkitis — Thu, 15 May 2008 07:52:35 -0800

My gay uncle is the oldest of five boys. Interesting theory, but...

Comment by Marty

Marty — Thu, 15 May 2008 08:39:10 -0800

I would love to see studies like this done in China, where it's estimated by 2015 there will be 10 males to every female.

Comment by Matt from Denver

Matt from Denver — Thu, 15 May 2008 08:48:16 -0800

@ 33, I can see it already: We declare war on China, the justification being that it's a nation of fags! And surely all those gays in their military will make them a pushover because we all know how that brings down morale...

Comment by Matt from Denver

Matt from Denver — Thu, 15 May 2008 08:49:27 -0800

Sorry, my comment @ 35 was meant as a response to 34, not 33.

Comment by Greg

Greg — Thu, 15 May 2008 08:58:52 -0800

Curiously, neither my dad nor any of his six brothers turned out to be gay.

Comment by Jon

Jon — Thu, 15 May 2008 09:28:03 -0800

I know four siblings from Brooklyn that out them, one is a lesbian, two are gay and the last one is a hetero male.

Comment by PopTart

PopTart — Thu, 15 May 2008 09:34:23 -0800

Hmmm, what does this say about those Romney brothers?

Comment by 433

433 — Thu, 15 May 2008 09:35:44 -0800

@37, That you KNOW of!

(Dun-dun-DUN!!!)

Comment by Colin

Colin — Thu, 15 May 2008 09:43:58 -0800

@3 I can't explain the biology of it but if you think about it, it does make sense from an evolutionary standpoint.

The species doesn't benefit from having a dramatically larger number of men than women. Therefore if there are more males getting pumped out it makes sense to not have all of them chasing a limited number of females.

Comment by anonymoose

anonymoose — Thu, 15 May 2008 10:00:03 -0800

brings to mind "thunk, another miracle" - bill hicks

Comment by Non

Non — Thu, 15 May 2008 13:33:02 -0800

"Now this part some will find objectionable but a younger brother willing to be mounted by older siblings"

LOLOL 'mount' always cracks me up

Comment by Drug Rehabs

Drug Rehabs — Fri, 16 May 2008 00:54:57 -0800

If anyone is addicted to drugs then we should motivate him to leave it. Addiction is not easy to leave but the continuous efforts can help the addicts to gain the energy and confidence for fighting against the evil of drug addiction.