Comments on All Your Base Out Of Are Belong To Us

I think -- and this is pure conjecture on my part -- but I think the phrase "based out of" is probably military in origin (like "over the top" and many other phrases in common use today), and that the construction refers to the base from which operations are carried out. So troops come out of a base; on encountering such troops in the field, one might discuss where they came from in terms of where they are based, even though they are out of the base upon encountering them, eg, "the Americans in Iraq are based out of the Green Zone."

Regardless of origin, I think the phrase generally connotes the center of activity, where the activity or area of influence is the defining characteristic of the "base" being referred to -- making the things in the base less important than the things coming out of the base -- so to speak.

I think if dr had applied his or her critical thinking skills to the question in earnest, instead of just leaping to the first point of criticism and lingering there, this point would have been obvious.

The folks over at language log have a long running commentary on "word rage". Here's a pointer to an early post:

http://158.130.17.5/~myl/languagelog/archives/002897.html

While proofing papers for ESL students, I learned that prepositions are notoriously slippery. Nine out of ten "edits" i offered were changes in prepositions. Does anyone know why this is? Are there just not any hard and fast *rules* about preposition usage, since they generally only imply "thought relations"?

What really drives me crazy is "off of." The "of" is already implied in "off", isn't it?

@4 Besides *that* one of course, the unnecessary preposition.

Maybe this is beside the point, but I believe the phrase as used here refers to the fact that Amazon Inc, as a company, is not entirely contained within that building. They have warehouses, service centers, office space, etc, all over the place. So to say that they're entirely located there would be a mistake.

Confusing the usage of prepositions is no stranger to the English language. It gives us fun phrases like "up in Tacoma".

Grammar tennis!

Here's another forum thread on the phrase:

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=184589

I like the military etymology idea. If we accept that, then the Amazon usage is inappropriate, as Amazon rarely sends strike teams on sallys.

There's something about the phrase with relates it to the midwesternism 'needs fixed,' to my ear. It definitely sounds clunky in Paul's usage to me (RARE, sir, in your work) and for the reasons the grammar-slapper cites.

(comment broken into two parts to avoid spam blockage)

I blame the President.

Finally, copy might be blowing a modicum smoke with the NYT citation.

I entered this search into google: site:nytimes.com +"based out of" new york times

(Slog's spam filter refused the post with the full link, so sorry)

the first page of results brings only two uses of 'based out of,' both in distinct contexts from Paul's usage:

"Supreme Court Restricts the Taxation of Income of Companies Based Out of State"

(If Paul had written "Amazon's primary shipping center is based out of Washington," meaning that the shipping center was in another state - which some are - the usage would be both clear and correct, I think.)

"With about 50 percent of businesses in the United States based out of the home"

this usage is closer and also clear. it paralells Paul's usage exactly, but the distinction is that the noun is general in this usage while it was specific in Paul's.

I suppose, in the end, grammar is based out of usage. Your swing!

Me no like tennis.

@1: You are entirely correct that this is a military usage originally; "based in" and "based out of" mean slightly different things. To be based in means to have headquarters or central office somewhere--and to conduct operations or activities in that place. To be based out of means that operations or activities occur anywhere but they are coordinated from that place. Amazon is based in the Pacific Med Building, yes, but its disparate operations in multiple states and countries are based out of that building, too.

@2: I worship Language Log, and I wish more people interested in language would read that blog (or the one book so far that has been published from its entries). So many people mistake the ability to speak for expertise in grammar and usage. As Qui-Gon said, "The ability to speak does not make you intelligent."

@3: It turns out there can't be any "rules" about when to use prepositions because they are lexicalized, i.e. the preposition used in a certain context depends on general usage by native speakers and simply has to be learned like any other vocabulary. Sometimes differences arise, e.g. in most of the United States people wait "in" lines, while in New York people wait "on" lines. This is simply a question of usage, depending on one's dialect or where one lives, and you simply have to learn that "wait" takes "in" as its preposition (unless in New York). When teaching any language, it is often helpful for students to learn words with the prepositions that are likely to co-occur. One important thing to remember, however, is that English uses a lot of verb particles that look like prepositions but are really adverbs. For instance, in "pick up some milk" "up" is not a preposition but an adverb (which you can test if the "up" can move, e.g. "pick some milk up"). So you should learn the verb "to pick up" as a single item (in ESL, etc.).

@4: There's nothing wrong with "off of." It may seem superficially or logically redundant, and today it is considered informal, but it has been in use at least since the 1600s and one citation exists from the 1400s. "Off" in this case is an adverb, and adverb+preposition compounds are not uncommon (cf. "away from," "out of," "prior to," "over from," "down to," etc.).

there are a couple of these oxymoronic (but totally correct and blessed by common usage) phrases, like:
"all but"

which means "nearly" in common usage but literally would mean "everything except" or not near at all... English is a weird fucking language.

Dude, I can just like totally relate to being way pissed at bad, grammar nannies. One time I was in Montreal to score some way way doobage, and I asked the guy, "Ou est-ce qu'il y a le Cheeba en ce-ville-la?"

The dude fuckin' hit me, dude!!!

I heard the canucks were all, like, "woah" about bad French, but, like, woah, dude, mellow out, Franco!

@4

Your statement contradicts the James Brown rule. Anything that the Godfather sings is right and good.

Get up off of that thing...

I always assumed "based out of" referred to traveling salesmen (once upon a time the only kind). "I'm based out of Crookston" is the sort of thing members of the United Commercial Travelers might say to each other around the bar at the Commercial Hotel in Terre Haute, circa 1910, "but I'm trying to drum up some new business out here. Stockings, luggage, umbrellas. Mine's a rye-and-soda".

@12 - not to be picky, but to be based out of an area or building implies that your military forces are normally not resident in and may be occupying a formerly hostile or neutral location.

I was based out of CFB Chilliwack, but probably only was on premises maybe 24 weeks out of seven years. We had a detachment in Vancouver that I spent most of my time in, or I was on maneuvers somewhere or attached to military units in various provinces or other countries.

Being based out of is a loose association at best.

Amazon is based IN PacMed. Not based OUT OF PacMed. No matter how much they want it to be otherwise.

Cheeba? I would have decked you.

Mike: I am not "blowing smoke" with my New York Times reference. I understand the difference between Paul's usage and the phrase "based out of state." My NYT site query came up with many instances that were directly parallel to Paul's.

I interpret this as Amazon is IN the Pac Med building, hence work, commerce, goods, and whatever else flow OUT OF the Pac Med building.

In this context, the "out of" is similar to "coming out of" or perhaps "emanating from".

Batman is based out of Gotham City.

@3 - I know in Spanish there are several words that mean a particular preposition, depending on the context, and that one word can take on the meaning of the same preposition, again depending on the context. I'm assuming other languages are similar, as I regularly edit the writing of engineers and scientists who received their primary education in India, and I notice the same errors. Also, they tend to leave out all of the articles in everything they write.

@2, Hurray for Language Log, my second favorite blog after Slog.

My farts are based out of my ass.

Bad grammar. Or not. Poor writing. Yes.

@21 - no, Batman is based in Gotham City - it's where he spends most of his time.

I think "based out of" has come into more common use lately because of the internet. Many firms conduct the vast majority of their business on the internet and have a large number of employees who telecommute, or who work in one of several offices in various locations. In this sort of business model, "based out of," suggests that the office so described is the most central and geographically fixed component of a firm that conducts most of its business and works with a certain number of its employees in the ephemeral non-place of the internet. Thus "based out of" is becoming the common prepositional phrase to describe the physical locations or the corporate headquarters of internet or IT-based corporations.

@12 Thank you Oh Erudite One. That is basically what I thought. Signifying a relationship has a lot to do with the person expressing it.

I understand what you mean re: adverbs+prepositions, except when I try to use it in a sentence.

"I came over from Spain last month" and "I came over Spain last month". The last sentence doesn't make any sense, whereas "I got off of the bus" and "I got off the bus" are equivalent. Please advise and show me the error of my ways.

I blame Tom Sholtz: "We were just another band out of Boston..." I'm in a band out of Boston too. In fact, we've been completely out of Boston the entire time we've been together.

You can't go wrong with saying Amazon is based IN the Pac Med building, if that's where their base is, so why use an awkward ambiguous alternative?