Comments on Meanwhile in Rome...

Italy ain't New York, dude.

(Sorry, Rome, not Italy)

I hope Charles remembers this the next time he decides to compare the US with Europe.

How is this different from the Fascists infesting our White House?

NYC came pretty close to that when they elected Giuliani.

Every time people start talking about how Europe is superior or more cultured or whatever, something like this happens in Western Europe.

Someone needs to find that meathook.

So Italy elected a fascist, has that been a problem in the past or something?

@4 they are honest about their ideological underpinning

Alemanno? Seriously? Sounds like the Spanish word for German...

Love it. Ohhh the Europeans are so fucking enlightened blah blah blah. Beneath the exterior of every Truffaut loving, cigarette smoking, Sartre quoting European lies the steely heart of the medieval barbarian pillager. These are, after all, the people who gave us the crusades, inquisition, and holocaust.

Cheers.

It's so hard to bash the Europeans because whenever we go there. We see how happy they are, eat wonderful food, stay thin, get drunk and LAID.

Then we come back to the US and wonder why we can't do the same.

I don't mind history repeating itself. I just wish it show more new episodes before going to reruns.

@7 Great comment!

"Rome" is not the same as "Europe". It's not even the same as "Italy". But yeah, Italy's in the toilet right now, and they're turning to creeps like Alemanno. Didja know that Italy, which just a decade ago was one of the powerhouses of Europe, now has a lower GDP per head than Spain -- SPAIN! -- and is going to be passed in this statistic this year by Greece -- GREECE, which was until a decade or so ago practically the Third World.

we need to learn from italy so as to not make the same mistakes. also, i find it pretty interesting that on the way down, the worse the situation in a country the worse the leader they seem to choose. before hitting the bottom.

i worded that poorly. when people are desperate, they seem to be easier led... i'm not sure how to capture this though.

perhaps it's better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.

Why can't those bitter Romans just turn to religion and guns instead of, er...

infrequent ... I get it. I mean, I was wondering why Fascism would be of any interest in Italy. I mean I knew it was weird there, but I didn't know it was difficult.

The only thing I knew about Italy was that there is a party for everyone and everything and NOTHING gets done, the opposite to the two party system. That almost everyone is employed in the underground economy because the jobs are overtly socialist (ie France).

Fascism arose AFTER the great depression when people were desperate for a living, regardless of the price. Sick thing is, it worked for a little while.

This should make those bastards Lazio supporters happy. Rome is already hell for immigrants as is most of Europe, it is about to get worse, but anti immigrant platforms will get u elected in Italy.

Those enlighten europeans, americans praise so much.

Immigration is the major factor. Western Europe 20 years ago was entirely different in terms of population configuration. No open borders between the EEC members, very little immigration from outside of Western Europe, heck -- at least in Spain -- surprisingly very little *regional* movement.

How do you say, "They took our jobs!" in Italian?

I guess when I think of immigration in Europe, it's kind of a different animal. In the US, we have immigrants from Mexico and South America where their only major, inconveniencing gripe to us is language. Whereas in Europe, they have to deal with muslims, who have significant lifestyle demands that SLAM into the largely secular and seemingly barely Christians in Europe anymore.

Call me a xenophobe, but does anyone else see the absurdity of having a national ID card be a woman with a Burcha on?

*shrugs*

Italy.

@15 Hey! leave Greece out of it. Third world country. thptht.

OR Matt @19: Fascism as an ideology dates to the late 19th century, and Mussolini's Fascists took power in Italy in 1922 -- long before the Great Depression.

@26 ... thank you. I guess that makes much more sense

@26 -- my point was that 20 years ago the idea that Greece could have a stronger economy with higher income levels than Italy was laughable -- like saying Mexico would be richer than the US. Even Spain -- Italians would have laughed at you. Now it's happening. Greece is booming, Italy is imploding. I remember 20 years ago when Italy passed the UK in GDP per head, and people were SHOCKED. Now it's happening to them (and the UK is back on top of just about everyone).

Twenty years ago Ireland was almost Third World too. Boom!

At the current rates, Italy will be surpassed by countries like Romania and the Czech Republic in just a few years. That's a HUGE change. Unfortunately, Italians can't seem to see any other response besides xenophobia, corruption, and fascism.

a lot of the immigrants in italy are albanian ( who get blamed for all the crime), rumanian, african, algierian, morrocan and in the last 10 years, south america...

immigration laws have always been harsh there and is basically impossible to get citizenship and for non italians with legal residency to get decent jobs.

You will NEVER see a cop or caribeneri or anybody in a goverment job who is not a white italian. my brother is married to an italian, is an italian citizen, college educated, two italian born daughters has lived there for 15 years and still can not get a goverment job.

gypsies are a favorite target in Rome and there have been massive deportations of romanians lately.

italians are proud xenophobes, hell northern italians consider southern italians scum.

though they love to blame others, the mafia, the gamorrah, the ndragheta and all the other regional mafias are home grown and even their own berlusconi is corrupt as hell. all of their crime is home grown.

Yo Fnarf

Off topic: You were right about Zito, he was sent to the bull pen today. Boy was I wayyy off, he is a bust.

to be honest this is not surprising. it seems outrageous to people coming from the united states, especially from the NW. it is certainly distressing to see this first hand living here in rome, but Italy is a very very troubled nation right now. they are struggling mightily because of the value of the euro with which their economy cannot keep up and they are plagued by an inability to actually get anything done. also, romans are generally fiercely nationalistic, taking pride in their 2,700 year history, and to them xenophobia is no vice, it is a virtue that they feel protects their way of life and secures prosperity for the group they feel most deserve it, italian citizens.

it was interesting for me to learn that most italians look back upon the rule of mussolini with great fondness, because he was actually able to get things done and help italy modernize and become a more relevant country on the world level. also, it is important to remember that italian facism was not german facism and that it was not characterized by racism, let alone systematic persecution of particular segments of society.

facism here just doesn't mean the same thing as it does in the united states. to italians it just means a strong conservative leader who will get things done and solve problems. is that frightening? to me, having been raised in the nw, yes. to an roman? it sounds like a message of hope compared to becoming a city like naples, governed by organized crime, without law, order, or even simple infrastructure. in essence, @ 1 has said the most accurate thing, rome is a very different world from ours in the u.s.

organized crime in italy is not just the gamorah in napoli. thats more xenophobic crap about the south being wild and the north civilized. organized crime is entrenched in all branches of goverment.

the fascists are not nice conservatives thats crap. go to a lazio match and watch the hand salutes and the anti immigrant chants. the vote is for the get tough on immigrant crap thats sweeping europe.

i mean, no doubt people in italy are against immigration. but, in their opinions, italy is for italians, albania is for albanians, france is for the french etc, it is just a very different way of looking at things than we have in the u.s.

let alone the show of a lazio match, try standing on a bridge watching the carabiniere stop every non-italian or non-northern european looking person and checking their papers and checking them for drugs or for illegal fake designer sunglasses they might be selling.

italian politics are a joke, but they have been for 2,762 years.

@28 - most of Greece's problem is it's national energy and transportation policy, actually.

Actually? Actually what, Will? The only way your sentence makes sense is if you accidentally wrote "Greece" where you meant to write "Italy", but then it would just be wrong.

a 6.5% win is hardly a "crushing"

You're the one that brought Greece into it. In @28.

Try reading your own posts before flaming people. And nobody thinks the Vatican is a real state, FWIW.

SeMe, it's camorra, not "gamorrah."
Part of the reason why you don't see much diversity in the carabinieri is because there have always been very strict rules for admission into the service - including not only a clean, traceable family history going back several generations, but a certain amount of time residing in the region.
Also, talk to any Italian and you'll find out that no one is able to find a decent job these days - there are plenty of competent, college educated ITALIANS who are struggling and jobless.
Yes, Italy has serious problems. The idolization of fascist rulers is really, really disturbing, and the victory of Alemanno and Berlusconi is a major blow. But do not - do not - make generalizations like "Italians are proud xenophobes." Italy is full of people - liberal, progressive, intelligent people - who are feeling exactly like americans felt when Bush was reelected.

fromseattlelivinginrome -

"facism here just doesn't mean the same thing as it does in the united states. to italians it just means a strong conservative leader who will get things done and solve problems...it sounds like a message of hope"

Actually, fascism is strongly despised by 50% of Italians - remember the Italian Resistance Movement in WWII? The partisans? Liberal Italians look to them as heros. You may be living in Rome right now, but you're clearly entirely missing a side of Italian history and culture. Go to a socialist party, go ask some older people in the country how they feel.

These generalizations really drive me crazy - and Americans complain of THEIR image abroad.