And the winner is ... the Elites who run the MSM and distract you from the fact that over the last eight years you've LOST wealth for 98 percent of Americans while the ultra-rich INCREASED their wealth even faster!

Yaaay!

I've gotten significantly richer under Bush, Will. Somebody needs to write a book "What's the Matter with Seattle" and tell the us why people like me keep voting our values instead of our economic interest.

@2 I'd read that book.

Maybe some people got richer under Bush but a whole lot of people got deader. Wealth isn't worth tens of thousands of lives and another generation of brinksmanship.

(Not to mention - unless your wealth is in base metals or Euros, you should keep a close eye on it. Most other forms of wealth are evaporating rapidly right now).

There are very few areas in the US where home values continue to increase, one being our area here.

Remember the hanging chads? Yeah, that cost thousands of lives.

elenchos@2, Daniel Gross has been absorbed with this notion of Bushenfreude - perhaps you are such a specimen.

@2 Wow, you're that your individual experience disproves the experience of hundreds of millions of people. That's pretty silly. Let me guess, you're one of the skeevy crooks cashing in on the ultimate pork barrel fiasco: The patriot act. So I guess you value lies, torture, stupidity, racism, sexism, and ignorance. Those are some solid Republican values there.

@8

No, the only thing I truly value is reading comprehension. I'll pay any tax for a government that will teach people like you to read.

Ouch!

charles gibson love machine.

It's 'cause we've got motorcycles, e. Jebus rewards us for having the stones to tame the iron horses.

I'm calling a moratorium on referring to Jesus as "Jebus". Please begin calling him "Jizzus", or some other variant that is at least slightly more clever than a decade old Simpsons' reference.

Thank you

Will someone please forward this information to 4chan, Fark, and SomethingAwful, please?

I've got a lot of work to do killing age old pseudo-memes and don't have time to do grunt work.

You know, it's one thing to "vote your values" when you have the money to do it. It's another thing entirely to starve all the way to the polls. People in both parties get rich.

And btw, where do the Hollywood elite get off thinking they're all about the little man when they don't value the little man enough to make a little less so the popcorn don't cost so much?

It seemed like both candidates got screwed. Obama got nothing but tabloid questions. Clinton got less face time than the people in the commercials. He looked bad, and who the hell knows how she looked, all she needed to do was mail a cardboard cutout to this debate in which she would be treated like an irrelevant sideshow.

I struggle to pay for drugs, I know people who struggle to pay for transportation to and from jobs that are constantly teetering on the brink... and the questions we ask of presidential candidates are about accessories? ABC is just lucky I can't sue them to get the two hours of my life back.

Despite the talking heads upcoming attempt to milk this debate for "news" it will mean nothing, absolutley nothing. ABC was/is pathetic.

When did George Stephanopoulos become a Republican?

He became a repub when Hillary did. A few months ago.

Senator Obama, why do you hate America? Senator Clinton, how do you feel about Senator Obama hating America?

I'm glad Obama didn't jump over the podium and clock the moderators. Good lord.

outside-the-bubble comment:
_________________
Obama got clobberred, he didn't stand up well to the normal media scrutiny about the normal issues that typically decide a presidential race. Back in Jan. Obama supporters effusively trumpeted his intangibles -- charisma, charm etc. -- as why we should support him -- this meant he could connect with independents and republicans and bring us this huge sweeping change election, etc. Well now the intangibles aren't so great the cry is it's unfair to talk about them, themedia is unfair and the swing voters are too stupid to understand what they should be voting on. And damn it if he doens't wear a flag pin we lefties like him better so fuck allthose ARchie Bunker dumbass swing voters!

The Obama supporter view seems no longer to be: "he's a master at this game -- he will sweep 350 electoral colelge votes and change politics forever !! [heave, pant, faces blushing in anticipation]."

Nope, now it's "screw all those dumbass voters who care if he had a fundraiser with a guy who wanted to bomb Aemrica more and said so after 9-11! Screw all those dumbass voters who get into flag pins!! The media is unfair, the bvoters are too dumb, hey if they want to make this process be about stupid silly nonissues then too bad for them if they don't elect Barack Obama!1"

Because clearly he's on the path to lose the general election.

At the debate Obama all the polls show he has a better chance against McCain.

What a fibber.

It's basically a tie if you look at the margin of error and the average of polls on the respective head to heads nationally.

And we know the general electoin turns on electoral college votes.

Here's real clear politics -- these are averages of other polls showing Obama and Clinton against McCain:
Pennsylvania Obama +2.2 Clinton +6.2 -- that is Clinton does 4 points better. Clinton's mopre electable in PA NOT OBAMA.

Ohio McCain +5.2 Clinton +2.8
Clinton does 8 points better.
OBAMA LOSES OHIO. That's not a poll showing he's more electable, in fact a 5 point lead is pretty good and an 8 poitn spread shows Clinton is FAR MORE ELECTABLE.

Florida McCain +11.7 McCain +0.3

Wow. Crash and burn disaster. This would be the kind of loss that puts Florida out of our reach for 20 years. Obama is crushed by nearly 12 points.

(Guess all htose millions of Democrats read about how he wants to deny them representation at the convention. What a stupid, losing position for him to take!)

So bottom line on these tidbits of info is Obama loses 2 of 3 key swing states-- normally this means we DEMOCRATS LOSE the presidency. Again.

Because why?

Because Obama and his supports have disdain for the process, the media, and the people who do actually care about hanging out with a terrorist who wanted to bomb America more, who care about not wearing a flag pin and who care about a 20 year relationship with a pasotr who teaches God Damn America.

McGovern, Dukakis, Gore and Kerry and Mondale and yes, Humphrey all got clobbered over these "social issues" or "cultural liberalism" or what not.
So these "trivial" issues in fact are what decide elections.

Crying about what moves swing voters and decides elections is arrogant and disdainful. It does not predict nor help win the election.

Adlai Stevenson with charm still is still Adlai Stevenson.
___________________
Okay, ally ally in come free, back into the bubble!

Chris in Tampa-

Jebus. Jebus. Jebus.

Saxamaphone, saxamaphone. To beer, the cause of, and solution to, most of life's problems. Eat my shorts.

Jebus.

I love it! Thanks, Hillary! I can take a vacation until 1/20/09. Oh, and there will be at least 16 more years of GOP Rule.

"Because why?

Because Obama and his supports have disdain for the process, "

Yes, damn him for continually saying he supports whatever the party wants to do, and thinking he should win simply because he has more delegeates, more states, and a higher popular vote... what kind of wacky vote-based party does he think this is? Some kind of "democratic" party???

I'm moving to Canada.

I"m moving to unPC's house. It must be so happy there...

In a way, the candidates have themselves to blame for last night's farce. Why did they agree to so many debates? What could possibly be gained by a 21st debate that was not gained in the first 20?

The electoral process in this country has never seemed more inane. From the astronomical sums of money neccessary to run the campaigns too the mind-numbingly long campaign season, its not a wonder that stupid faux controversies rule the day.

I just love the Obamatons on Slog: whenever their guy sucks, they blame the process. Face it. BHO took a beating last night. If he didn't like the questions, he should have thrown them back at the moderator, or left the stage. By answering them, he tacitly approved the process, so stop whining.

He is over. Finished. Finito. Done. You know it in your heart of heart's. Hils at this in the bag weeks ago. Soon you will be sitting comfortably at home, and hear the click-click of Manolo's, and the ringing of your doorbell. She's coming for you, so you better hide.

#23: What you say may be true, but the answer is......Hillary? I know in some Rust Belt states the attitude is "Hillary or McCain---never the unpatriotic, America-hating Obama" but I get the sense from my Red State friends and relatives in places like Idaho, New Mexico, Nevada, the attitude is "Obama or McCain--never the fake, slimy bitch Hillary". I don't disagree with anything you are saying about Obama becoming more McGovernlike with every spin cycle. But I also don't see Hillary losing any of her negatives either, in fact they just keep getting stronger: the trustworty polls, the likeable polls. Are we just screwed either way then? I fear we may be.

@16,

The Hollywood elites don't make money off of popcorn.

@29,

Your shtick is getting old.

unPC: Stop quoting all these polls of what's going to happen in November. Anyone's who's paid any attention to any of the polls in this election can see that they don't mean a thing until about a week before. Any McCain vs. Obama poll is meaningless until they actually campaign against each other.

fluteprof: Stop telling people what they feel in their "heart of heart's" [sic]. If you have some information that the rest of don't, then cite your sources.

#22, your continued obsession with posting general election polls is fucking useless.

#29, your continued obsession with the idea that HRC has it locked up is fucking comical. Weren't you going to put your rebate check up against Bellevue Ave? Why don't you go put your life savings into HRC on Intrade, where she's selling at %18? What's that? It's because you're full of shit?

Seriously, if you think HRC has it locked up, you will make 4:1 on your investment on Intrade. Let us know when you buy in.

@29 You must be really bad at math, unless you think a ton of superdelegates are going to turn it around for her. Statistically it's almost impossible.

In these trying times, you'd deny us bitter slog posters the solace of clinging to Jebus?

#34, no one can be that bad at math. They must be a tin foil hat anti-Establishment nutzo and think that the Party Elites are going to crown Mrs. Bill Clinton as the Democratic nominee, sans convention. White People *will* save the day. That Uppity Negro that's threatening the Way It Is? He's finished. You know it in your heart of hearts.

Christ was also an Uppity Negro, so I recommend switching to "Jefus".

Luckily, the only people watching last night debate were hard-core political types around the country who are set on supporting one of the two candidates and have probably already voted anyway. The exception are Democratic voters in the upcoming states, primarily Pennsylvania but also Indiana and North Carolina. I doubt enough of those voters are going to be swayed to make any difference to the presumed nomination of Barack Obama.

As for the general election, again, nobody except a few million hardcore voters watched this (and not even all of us--I only saw the highlights after the fact, and realized that it wasn't worth taking the trouble to seek out the video). That leaves only the potential value of these issues to smear Obama in TV ads in the fall. But that would have happened anyway.

So there's no reason for Obama supporters to despair or Clinton and McCain supporters to crow with glee. We should all despair that our media have degraded to this level, regardless of which candidate we support, but that's not going to affect the outcome of this election.