Comments on All Right. It's Now Officially OK to Be Against Seating Michigan's Delegates

Obama's decision to remove himself from the roster of candidates on the Michigan ballot, then his proposal to take away some of Clinton's delegates and split them 50/50, in addition to his refusal to agree to a revote in MI and FL, are imminently more democratic. Also, Annie Wagner can read Michigan voters' minds-- she can pull their thought processes magically from her ass.

Oops, and I did mean, "eminently."

wow, only clinton on the ballot? they should either vote again or not count..

did i mention hillary campaigned there even though she agreed it was against the rules?

Oh, annie.

well then perhaps mr. obama and his supporters should have insisted on a revote done the right way. don't be a douche bag, you are ignoring the will of every single voter in that state if you refuse to seat Michigan in some way or another.

sepiolida@3:

hillary campaigned there even though she agreed it was against the rules

Really?!? Wow. That would be terrible. You have some evidence for this claim, right?

Save it, @1 - there is no "democratic" solution to the MI problem at this point. None. The ballot does not fairly represent popular opinion, and neither will any other scheme cooked up. If any candidate is to blame, they're both to blame equally. Both happily signed off on shunning MI before it appeared to matter, and both candidates' positions are motivated solely by self-interest. (And Hillary was just as scornful of a revote herself at one point, wanting to keep the results as they stood, until finally deciding to suggest a revote instead.)

I was for the rules before I was against the rules.

FUCK THIS SHIT. I'd groan and vote for Hillary if she somehow won the nomination fair and square, and I can't vote for McCain - but if she's going to squeak through and steal the nom with shit like this, I'm just not voting at all. There's no reason to believe she won't fuck over her own party members and the American people just as badly at every opportunity she gets.

I can't believe it's fucking come to this.

OR the Michigan voter didn't even go to the polls and pull ANY lever because the Democratic National Party officials said IT WOULDN'T COUNT. So how is it "democratic" for all those who didn't even participate in a one-sided, unofficial "election"?

Senator Clinton agreed to the pledge. She changed her mind when her front-runner status evaporated. It's that simple.

Yeah, because for the super delegates to take the nomination away from the first black contender would seem like cheating, but if it is taken away by a combination of the super delegates plus the two illegitimate races, then it will sell.

Somebody please tell me why Hillary doesn't quit. What is she doing?

@1,

You're right. It's infinitely more democratic to give voters only one name on the ballot.

For Florida, the DNC should do what the Republicans did: cut the delegates in half to punish the state, but let the percentages stand. Michigan needs to either be cut 50-50 or not count at all.

@3. No she did not campaign here. I don't like her, and she was the only person on the ballot, but she did not campaign here.

I LIVE in MI, and would have voted for Obama, but was told I couldnot even write his name in. I was also told it wouldn't count. So I voted McCain in the repub. primary. My wife refused to vote as a protest. I know we're not alone, so seating the delegates as they are would royally piss me off. In fact, considering the way the REAL delegates stand (not super), if Hils wins, I will not vote democratic for the next two elections purely as a protest vote.

If the dems ignore the will of the voters in the nomination, why should they listen to us later? What a message.

Here's what I don't understand...

The system seems to be set up so that if the public can't make up their mind because no candidate has 2025 delegates going into the convention, the party leaders (who are experienced, etc yada yada) will make the choice. This happens at the convention, so why have we even heard from the super delegates yet? We'd all be excited and energized if they weren't allowed to speak their preference prior to the convention, but now "The party is getting torn apart!"

It's really this awful system that's hurting the party, not Hilary or Barack. Both are playing within the rules given them, it's the game that's pissing people off.

As a Michigander, there's no freakin' way our delegates should be seated. At all. Ever. It was a sham election, and everyone knew it. I had friends vote Republican, for heaven's sake. Hillary, just like the rest of 'em, agreed MI wouldn't count. You can't change the rules now--no matter how much Clinton and her supporters cry and moan.

@15... actually Hillary didn't decide Michigan wouldn't count, the DNC did.

Annie, you are wrong. there was a campaign on tv and in print ads advocating for all Obama supporters to VOTE uncommitted. do a google search, the reports are there.
Obama didn't have to take his name off, it was HIS calculated choice to do so in order to gain favor with Iowa and New Hampshire voters. And read the Bauer memo that notes their effort to block the revote efforts.

Everyone on this earth knows very, very, very, very, very well that Hillary supporters would be unleashing shrieks audible the world round if the tables were turned, and wouldn't give a single thought to the "will of the voters" of Michigan. The shameless, completely transparent opportunism here is just disgusting. How do you people keep a straight face, for God's sake? Have you just given up and don't care anymore?

WARNING: Michigan delegates coming to Denver? You will NOT be welcome! --Love, a born and unfortunately raised Colorado resident (yes, the same state that voted for Amendment 2 and slammed for their stupid ignorance by the U.S.Supreme Court in a 6-3 decision)

wow. annie wagner just made the dumbest post of her slog career. congrats! you are one of those annoyingly divisive blogsters that is really tearing the party apart. the shear glee for which you attack hillary, deserved or not, is pretty repulsive. you, my dear, are repulsive.
full disclosure: i voted obama.

"Full disclosure?" You're posting anonymously dumbass. You can't fully disclose shit if nobody knows who you are. Who let these people on the internet?

Well said, Seriously! @18. I realize this is just a party nominating process and not a general election, but just imagine if the Republicans had shamelessly tried to pull off these shenanigans like making a non-binding vote binding. If it were Ken Blackwell or Katherine Harris, every Democrat would be outraged, but because it's Hillary Clinton, somehow it's all right.

What's especially sad to me about the the depths to which this Obama-Clinton campaign has descended is this sort of Fox News-ification of the debate. There is no truth; there are no facts. It's all moral relativism; there are always two sides to every story, and neither side is any more legitimate than the other.

To have to argue something so obvious as the Michigan delegates with a Hillary supporter is a bit like debating global warming with Jim Imhofe (R-OK).

Let's be clear on the sequence of events.

The DNC set the rules for the primary calendar in 2006.

The Michigan and Florida dem parties both voted to approve those rules.

Then they decided to break the rules to which they agreed.

They were warned what would happen if they broke the rules.

They broke the rules anyways.

The DNC punished them for breaking the rules.

The Clinton campaign agreed with the punishment for breaking the rules.

Hillary repeatedly acknowledged that those two primaries wouldn't count.

Hillary signed an agreement not to participate in those contests.

Everyone who signed the agreement withdrew their names from the ballot so that they would not be participating in the Michigan primary. (This was not possible in Florida due to state law.)

Hillary reneged on the agreement she signed and decided to participate in the Michigan primary.

It wasn't until Hillary fell behind in delegates that she went back on what she had previously and repeatedly said and decided they should count.

These are facts that no amount of spin will change.

That being said, can we at least all agree that no matter what happens, the superdelegates from MI and FL shouldn't be seated seeing as they're the retards who caused this mess to begin with?

There was no agreement to remove names. See the results? Not only Clinton left her name on the ballot. If Obama had left his name on, his supporters would be saying how smart he was. Interesting that his running ads in Florida through his national ads that NO OTHER candidate did is no problem.

Hillary Rodham Clinton 328,309 55.2%
Uncommitted 238,168 40.1
Dennis J. Kucinich 21,715 3.7
Christopher J. Dodd 3,845 0.6
Mike Gravel 2,361 0.4

who the hell lets the film editor write about politics anyway. can the stranger not afford to send her to tribeca?

I would like to see Obama get the nomination. Barring that, I will happily vote for McCain. There is no way in hell I want that warmongering bitch in the White House. And who the fuck are these fake "democrats" supporting a candidate vowing to get us into a war with Iran?

elenchos, regulation FD means that I'm AAA+ rated and you cant see what I'm made of.

@16. That's why I didn't say that Hillary decided anything. I said she agreed. Huge difference.

AW's definition of uncommitted:
If you were a Michigan voter and you pulled the lever for “uncommitted,” it’s probably because you’d thought about it and decided you were definitely totally absolutely against Hillary Clinton.

The dictionary:
un·com·mit·ted (nk-mtd)
adj.
Not pledged to a specific cause or course of action: an uncommitted delegate.

Like many I've tried to fight the urge to hate the Clintons. But I'm done with that fight. I hate her and everything about her campaign. And thats okay because I've always hated politicians that lie, cheat and pander. So its not personal. It's just a reflection of the way they choose to conduct themselves and their lack of character.

@26 you're right. McCain is the anti-war voter's best choice.

The state parties for the early states with whom the Obama campaign consulted prior to running the national ads did not feel they violated the agreement so I don't know why you think it did. More inconvenient facts for HillaryWorld I guess.

The agreement was not to participate. Hillary participated. Pretty much and dry... Unless you're a Clinton. The self-interested parsing just reminds me of one of the reasons she shouldn't be President. That and her willingness to so freely go back on her word.

ru - did florida say it was ok? did the dnc say it was ok? why would what another early state said make any difference? obama ran ads and hillary didn't so he's smart and ok but in michigan hillary left her name on the ballot within the rules and agreements making her evil and a cheat.

so MI and FL should not be seated because they are "retards" (bitter?) and those were the rules and the super delegates shouldn't decide the race even though that's what the rules say.

obama spporters calling the people of MI and FL retards works real good.

@22:

What's especially sad to me about the the depths to which this Obama-Clinton campaign has descended is this sort of Fox News-ification of the debate. There is no truth; there are no facts. It's all moral relativism; there are always two sides to every story, and neither side is any more legitimate than the other.

I think this totally hits the nail on the head.

Another Michigan voter here, and some others mentioned above, I also didn't even bother to vote in the Democratic Primary. Why would I? I was told BY THE PARTY that it wouldn't count. So complain about Hillary if you want, complain about Obama if you wish. But the fact is, we were told BY THE PARTY that this was meaningless. That, ultimately is why lots of people either didn't bother to vote, or like me, voted in the Republican Primary instead.

I'm glad they're not counting our delegates. What I'm not glad about is that the whole reason for this mess in the first place: the broken primary system, is going to be completely ignored while people wrangle around trying to figure out how to steal our primary one way or another.

@33:

Wow. You're really a piece of work. Are you trying to be this stupid or does it just come as naturally to you as breathing through your mouth?

>>ru - did florida say it was ok? did the dnc say it was ok? why would what another early state said make any difference?

Because the agreement that the campaigns signed was with the state parties of the early states. Not the DNC. Not Florida. Hence they would be the relevant parties to consult.

Did you seriously not know that? I mean, it's pretty funny that you're here pontificating about the race when you're unaware of basic facts.

>>so MI and FL should not be seated because they are "retards" (bitter?)

Lying about what other people said doesn't work very well when people can simply scroll up and see what was actually written.

In this case, it's @23:

>>the superdelegates from MI and FL shouldn't be seated seeing as they're the retards who caused this mess to begin with?

Okay, maybe you're not lying; Maybe you just failed 3rd grade English.

But thank you for your post because it provides an example of another reason Hillary shouldn't be President. Seen she's staffed her campaign with people like you. People who lie without hesitation. People who think the rules are whatever they say they are. You're the sort of person that would be running the White House, various agencies.

We've spent the last 8 years dealing with a President who's hired people like that. We don't need 4 more.

>>the super delegates shouldn't decide the race even though that's what the rules say.

No one is arguing that superdelegates shouldn't get to vote.

Many people, however, are pointing out the dire consequences of the Superdelegates voting for someone other than Obama and how the Superdelegates aren't stupid enough to ignore those consequences.

Given the way the remaining delegates will break down, including the add-on superdelegates, Obama only needs about 40 more superdelegates to make it impossible for Hillary to get the nomination and another dozen to clinch it for himself. That's the reality of the situation.

RU - the DNC stripped Florida not the early primary states. Please provide the copy of the agreement they signed with the early states or admit you don't know what you are talking about.

August 25, 2007
Read More: Convention

DNC strips Fla. of delegates -- primary wouldn't count

The Democratic Party has taken a swipe at the nation's fourth biggest state, stripping Florida of all of its '08 delegates as punishment for jumping the gun with its Jan. 29 primary. Florida's early date could force other states to move up and up to stay at the front of the pack.

Under a nearly unanimous vote taken moments ago by a powerful committee of the Democratic National Committee, if things don’t change, Florida’s primary will be a "beauty contest" — the delegates won’t count toward the party’s presidential nomination.

Four State Pledge Letter 2008 (link goes to PDF)

Keep it up. You're very close to setting the record for "Cumulative Fail in a Slog Comment Thread".

They should not be seated. Their state party broke the rules. Hillary broke her pledge not to run. They can't give her those delegates, it is not accurate or fair.

Thanks RU SHUR for your posts!