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1

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Hey, that's in the Bible! Tell the bitch that if she's really a good Christian, she'll practice what she preaches, and stay the fuck out of DOH's business.

Posted by Emily | March 20, 2008 2:55 PM
2

DOH should thank the friend for caring, but firmly, maybe evenly bluntly, tell that friend that DOH has made her own life choices and lecturing her constantly about them will not do anything to change who DOH is, how DOH behaves, or do anything other than drive a wedge deeper into their friendship.

If the friend won't back off, then DOH should stop putting herself in that situation.

Posted by Phelix | March 20, 2008 2:56 PM
3

I have always been impressed by your ability to dole out such good, measured advice to unusual situations. But this advice and your boobies advice make me think you are slippin'. Get your head in the game Savage.

Posted by Clint | March 20, 2008 2:57 PM
4

She should tell her friend to intercourse the heck off. Please. Some consideration.

And the old comfort level will never return: once someone goes fundy, they're done. If they fall off the proverbial wagon at a later date, they'll be so shamed by their vacation on the stupid side that they'll have to make a new batch of friends.

Posted by Bill | March 20, 2008 2:57 PM
5

Yup. Fuck the hell off. All the way.

Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty | March 20, 2008 2:58 PM
6

Hmm, I think Dan did a great job answering this one. Actually, fuck the hell off might be too subtle...

Posted by bwpinseattle | March 20, 2008 2:59 PM
7

Yeah I hate those morality cops, I had one attack me earlier this week regarding my relationship and I had to tell him, "Listen, I appreciate your concern, but it really isnt any of your business. I need friends right now, not enemies"

He shut right up.

Posted by catnextdoor | March 20, 2008 3:00 PM
8

And OK, Clint, since you're so fucking smart, what would you have told Mr. No-Boobies??

Posted by Fifty-Two-Eighty | March 20, 2008 3:03 PM
9

"Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."

Also from the Bible...her friend should back off.

Posted by Jen | March 20, 2008 3:03 PM
10

Ugh, new Christian smell is the worst. Keep her at arm's length for a few years, then check back to see if she's tolerable again.

Posted by Postureduck | March 20, 2008 3:04 PM
11

Fuck the hell off is about the only course of action. Those new converts are the worst. Maybe after a couple years she'll mellow out, but until then expect nothing but holier-than-thou BS.

Posted by cmaceachen | March 20, 2008 3:05 PM
12

I'm a big ole Christian and I agree, tell her to fuck off. Or, DOH could tell her friend to what actual effective Christians do: channel all that temptation to judgement into something positive, say, the Jubilee Campaign, or into becoming an advocate for those at the margins of society and a forceful voice for transformation and love, like Christ is.
But, frankly, "fuck off" is acceptable, too.

Posted by pbaitch | March 20, 2008 3:06 PM
13

I fail to understand the kind of person that lets a "friend" do that to them.

Who are these people? Or are they rugs disguised as human beings?

Posted by SeMe | March 20, 2008 3:07 PM
14

yeah the newly fundie friend is going to see her as a new mission whose conversion is of the hightest priority. keep her at a distance till/if she calms down.

Posted by Jiberish | March 20, 2008 3:09 PM
15

I never claimed to be smart, just underwhelmed. I don't have any better advice for him. If I did, I wouldn't need to read Savage Love.

Posted by Clint | March 20, 2008 3:11 PM
16

This person fucking the hell off pretty much nails it.

Posted by heywhatsit | March 20, 2008 3:12 PM
17

well, you need to tell them what you told dan. you can use the fuck off as a transition into that conversation, or save it in case they try to argue with you. she may not realize what she's doing despite how obvious it seems.

Posted by infrequent | March 20, 2008 3:14 PM
18

I mean, I think a nicer version of fuck off might salvage the friendship, but frankly, does DOH really want to be friends with this person anymore? She's never going to be the same person she once was, and even if Christian Friend never ever says anything again, you know that inside, she'll be Judgey McJudgerson. I think this friendship has unfortunately run its course and DOH should slowly cut her friend out of her life. Painful but necessary.

Posted by arduous | March 20, 2008 3:16 PM
19

Me = Christian. For the preachy friend: It's worth pointing out to any Christian that gets a little full of themselves with the morality lessons that Jesus was accused by church people of being a "drunkard" and "hanging out with the wrong crowd" (when that meant that if you hung out with them, you pretty much *were* them). So, the religious friend should probably realize that a) Jesus wouldn't hang out with her either, and b) she should aim for *his* standards as well as being the kind of person that the "wrong crowd" would actually hang out with. Then, maybe, just maybe, she'd be wise enough to actually have something spiritually useful to say.

Posted by Paul Moment | March 20, 2008 3:19 PM
20

Have your newly Christianized friend watch this video, which seems like a good litmus test for sensitivity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Gpy4Y2OdzY

... and then tell her you're not ready to hang out with her until she can laugh at her own religion.

(No double standard here either ... the South Park about Richard Dawkins and atheism was a rollicking good laff-fest.)

Posted by Mike | March 20, 2008 3:20 PM
21

Tell her that there is only one God and Mohammad is his prophet. That'll shut her up.

Posted by Mahtli69 | March 20, 2008 3:23 PM
22

Tell her to get cancer and die. Fast cancer. Super cancer.

Posted by Mr. Poe | March 20, 2008 3:23 PM
23

From a religious fundamentalist's perspective, loved ones who sin are in danger of going to hell. That (sometimes) explains why they can be such tight-asses when it comes to morality; they honestly think they are saving friends and family from drowning in a pool of fire. If you truly value this friendship, I recommend acknowledging this fact with her while also stating that you don't feel that she trusts you to make your own decisions about your life. She can pray for you all she wants, but she can't expect you to change who you are or to act insincerely around her. At the same time, you can't expect her to be accepting of you if you are not accepting of her in this new fundamentalist life. Unconditional love must go both ways. (That last line makes me giggle.)

Posted by Bub | March 20, 2008 3:24 PM
24

I would have edited the letter to give the slut, her boyfriend, and her moralistic yet easily seduced friend hotness-appropriate ages (22, 26, and 23). I would have added some lines about the worst thing her friend does now is blame her for initiating the three ways, and her new habit of demanding punishment for participating.

But then I don't read sex advice columns for the advice.

Speaking of which, how many fit young women write in with questions about riding their bicycles wearing a skirt in the rain? With descriptions of the way the fabric rides up on their thighs, and the way they blush when certain people look at them askance for riding without a helmet and just that flimsy hoodie that keeps falling unzipped in breeze as they ride? Cause that would be a good topic to give some advice on.

Posted by elenchos | March 20, 2008 3:25 PM
25

You can pick your friends but not your parents. My friends consist of people that like me for who I am and don't try to change me. My parents, unfortunately, think I am not good enough, need to pray, read my bible and come to church. I choose not to be friends with close-minded people who think my actions aren't good enough. Just tell your friend that unless she can stop judging (realizing that everyone is free to form their own beliefs and follow them), you can no longer be friends.

Posted by Pontouf | March 20, 2008 3:28 PM
26

Fuck the hell off is indeed the correct response. Even Saint Paul waited three years after his conversion (which he spent alone in the desert, not harrassing his friends) before he started preaching on missionary trips (See Gal. 1).

Posted by xian | March 20, 2008 3:31 PM
27

These things sometimes have a way of working themselves out...At 16 my younger sister became a 'Born Again' (speaking in tongues, and all that shit) and was unbearable in her Holier-Than-Thou attitude.
Two years later she got herself a boyfriend, went on the pill, and become a lot more civil...if still creepy on Sundays.

Now, DOH's friend is coming to religion a little later in life so there's a real danger that this not just a phase. Hopefully she'll settle down and become a little more considerate of her friends' feelings, but at the moment Religion still a shiny new toy for her and things will probably get worse before they get better.

If DOH wants to save the friendship the Jesus-freak is going to have to agree that Religion is a No-Go area. If she can't, then DOH needs to break things off for a while, if only to save her sanity.

Posted by jenk | March 20, 2008 3:35 PM
28

DOH needs to keep living her life with the same level of intensity as her friend does. Friend likes to now be "this way" DOH will have to remain "that way". No need to be confrontational. All too often we progressives look at the radical right and tell them to "leave us alone" and then we tip-toe about with our eyes cast down. DOH, live your life, swear, cuz, fart and make bad jokes. If friend gets all twisted out of shape, and threatens to end the friendship over your potty talk, such is the consequence of the choice to become "religious".

Posted by Sargon Bighorn | March 20, 2008 3:38 PM
29

Kick her.

Kick her hard.

Then, Dump Her.

Posted by michael strangeways | March 20, 2008 3:43 PM
30

That's such a hard situation. Your friend is probably just breaking in this religion thing (I know when I first became religious when I was 11, it honestly hurt me that my brother didn't feel the same), and wants to help others feel what she does. You are entitled to remind her that belief is a personal thing and should be kept private. Eventually, she's likely to loosen up, once she becomes more comfortable with her faith. It'll be tough at first. Hang in there.

Posted by Sage | March 20, 2008 3:47 PM
31

Hey DOH,
I had multiple friends that became religious and nothing good happened (we are not friends anymore…). One of my best friends became religious when we were 16 and slowly she expelled me from her life. At some point she said that I reminded her of the sinful times of her life (!!!!) Sinful???!! We were teenagers and most of our “sins” were talking about boys and giggling…She also cut ties with her secular family.
I am afraid you and your friend are going to rift apart no matter how respectful you behave. People who convert (or discover) religion as adults are usually go totally overboard…

Posted by OK | March 20, 2008 3:47 PM
32

i dunno. while it may seem tempting to tell the friend to fuck the hell off, ultimately it will only serve to exacerbate the carefully cultivated and lovingly nurtured persecution/martyr complex that most fundies carry around with them.

sure, telling her to fuck off will get rid of her in the short run but it will also serve to convince her of the undeniable rightness of her convictions (cuz why else would sinners persecute her?) thus making her even more rigid and intolerant and insufferable.

i suggest just not returning her calls.

Posted by brett | March 20, 2008 3:51 PM
33

I've gone through this. My best friend from childhood became VERY fundamentalist in high school/college and definitely went through phases of telling me I was going to hell.

I told my friend that while I was glad she found something that made her happy and I wnated to be a supportive friend, I was the same person as I had been throughout our friendship and that my beliefs were not going to change. While I understood that she thought "saving me" was the right thing to do (because that's what she believes), I simply didn't believe the same things and that treating me as though I'm a child or that I need to be preached to is hurtful. Eventually we came to a place where we just don't talk about certain issues and she doesn't lecture me anymore. I do stand up for my beliefs and for other people if necessary (say, when the gay rights argument comes up), but we get along much better now. That being said, I tried to stop cussing around her. She stopped lecturing me because I found it to be insulting and hurtful, but she finds the cussing to be offensive and disrespectful toward her. I figure I should give some of the respect that I expect.

Posted by Jo | March 20, 2008 3:54 PM
34

Apparently her friend has absorbed that whole 'sin of pride' thing yet.

Posted by J.R. Labrador | March 20, 2008 3:55 PM
35

DTMFA!

Posted by monkey | March 20, 2008 3:57 PM
36

That should've read: Apparently her friend HASN'T absorbed that whole 'sin of pride' thing yet. And apparently I haven't absorbed that whole 'posting comments' thing yet either.

Posted by J.R. Labrador | March 20, 2008 3:58 PM
37

I'd try telling her friend first that she feels judged first, and then warning her that if she doesn't back off her non-converted friend is either going to stop being honest with her, or stop hanging out with her altogether. The end result is likely to still be a (at least temporary) end to the friendship, but I'd give the xtian friend a chance first. After all, being a good friend means occasionally putting up with temporary bouts of insanity/assholery that most human beings go through. If the new xtian friend still doesn't back off, at least the nonconverted friend will know she gave her a chance. Besides, telling her that she's being judgemental and driving people away puts the xtian friend on notice that it's her behavior that's driving people away, not their fear of her newfound faith itself. She might chose to ignore that notice, but that's her problem.

Posted by Beguine | March 20, 2008 4:04 PM
38

New Christians are like new vegans: full of self-righteous fury and insecure about anything that challenges their newfound lifestyle cult.

Don't hang out with this new fangled Christian for a while and see if she gets the message. If not, then count yourself lucky to not have a nutty proselytizer hanging on your every word and action.

Posted by Jay | March 20, 2008 4:04 PM
39

Stay away from religious people. They believe their fantasies are real. They are mentally defective and can't be trusted. Avoid them.

No offense, religious people. I totally respect your right to believe what you want to. I am all about the tolerance. Knock yourselves out.

Posted by blank12357 | March 20, 2008 4:05 PM
40

It's worth noting that even the most fundamentalist religion doesn't turn someone into a judgmental asshole overnight (although it can definitely do that over time). That leaves two possibilities:

a) DOH's friend is insecure in her new church and is projecting that onto everyone around her. If this is the case, she needs to be called out on it. She might change or she might not, but it's worth a try.

b) DOH's friend has always been judgmental but never felt justified in acting on it before. If this is the case, she's a deeply dishonest person and needs more help than DOH is equipped to give her (or should be expected to). Fundamentalism will love her, everyone else may have a harder time. DTMFA!

(Caveat: I work in a church. Make of that what you will...)

Posted by Morgan | March 20, 2008 4:34 PM
41

There is a much simpler solution: Invite your friend over to have a personal talk with you, alone. Get you friend really drunk and plant a very serious kiss on her. Step back with that half excited/half ashamed look on your face and wait to see what happens. I predict 1 of 3 things will happen.

1 - Your friend will have something else to think about, other than religion.
2 - Your friend will convert to this 'new' sin and, assuming that is not your cup of tea, you can DTMFA, or
3 - Your friend will never call you back again.

No matter which option, you are far better off.

Posted by Kenny | March 20, 2008 4:58 PM
42

She says it all in her last sentence:

"Plus, I come from a family of Christians who don’t have giant sticks up their asses, so I know it’s possible."

In all likelihood, her friend was already a righteous, condescending ass. Religion just gave her what she thought was a good excuse to exercise it.

Now that the questioner knows this about her friend, and doesn't like it, I'm afraid there is probably not much she can do about it. Her best chance is probably to use Christian teachings to counter her, like "Why don't you be more tolerant of me and turn the other cheek like Jesus would have? I may not be the perfect human, but God loves all his children and he forgives me, you should too."

(Excuse me while I swallow the vomit that just appeared in my mouth..... Ok I'm back)

This might help her friend realize that religion is not a good excuse to exercise her condescension, but it probably will not help to solve the underlying problem (unless her friend truly believes those teachings, and judging from her behavior I'm guessing no). Her friend will probably just look for another reason to justify feeling like she is better than others and soon enough that character flaw will be manifesting itself in some other way, like, say, veganism, environmentalism, politics...

Posted by w7ngman | March 20, 2008 5:05 PM
43

When I first quit smoking, I became an insufferable ass, going on and on, trying to get everyone I knew to quit as well. To convert them. For their own good, of course. I was a completely clueless self-righteous prick about it. Eventually, I mellowed, realizing that I was just driving people away, and not really accomplishing much in the whole 'save them from themselves' thing. I learned that a live-and-let-live approach worked much better.

Your friend is like that, like a newly reformed smoker. She'll be an insufferable ass about it for at least a year or two. If you're lucky, you can ride it out and eventually she'll mellow out. Or she'll remain an insufferable ass forever. Who knows. Not much you can really do about it, other that decide if you're willing to wait for her to mellow out or not.

Posted by Reverse Polarity | March 20, 2008 5:41 PM
44

This person is not her friend. This person is an immature jerk, and the old familiarity will never return because this person can't stop treating DOE with self-indulgent, petty contempt. Which leaves about zero basis for a friendship. DTMFA.

Posted by Paz | March 20, 2008 5:44 PM
45

Stop Hanging Out With The Mother Fucker Already.

Posted by konstantConsumer | March 20, 2008 5:46 PM
46

If a friend had a Schizophrenic break, or developed a serious drug problem, you would intervene right? Becoming a Christian is no different. Get a group of secular friends together and stage an intervention. Tell your friend that you care about her, and can’t bear to watch her adopt a contradictory, ignorant, and destructive worldview without trying to intervene. Tell her that you respect her right to make her own personal choices, but as her friends, you cannot stand by and watch her destroy her chances for personal and intellectual growth. Point out the some of the contradictions inherent in Christian faith. Tell her that you worry about her closing herself off from enjoyable experiences for the sake of a fictional anthropomorphic Bronze Age sky god. Point out that Christian creation myth contradicts verified scientific observation. Also question why your friend thinks some rules of the Bible are worth following while others are not. Who are her Church leaders to cherry pick the word of God? Try to hug her before she stomps out of the room after telling you to fuck off. That way the onus won’t be on you for ending the relationship.

Too bad for me there’s no money in ‘Bad Advice Columns’

Posted by toasterhedgehog | March 20, 2008 6:13 PM
47

stage an intervention. talk to her about how you feel when she cuts you down. ask her if making you feel this way is her intention. because if it isn't her intention to drive you round the bend, she needs to rethink her proselytizing. If she can't understand or won't accept this, then tell her what the consequences of her continued lack of sensitivity will be.

Oh and by the way, if you and your bf actually are indeed exclusively "joshing around and teasing each other" and aren't ever "building each other up" (i.e. being supportive) then she has a point in this particular respect and you need to grow up.

Posted by LMSW | March 20, 2008 6:23 PM
48

The analogy to new vegans @38 is pretty spot-on. It's just like when anyone gets caught up in some new lifestyle change they've made for themselves: they turn in to self-righteous prosletyzing pricks for a few months. Give 'em a bit to cool off and realize that their behaviour is making their loved ones hate to be around them, and you may very well be surprised by how much they mellow out.

Posted by Hernandez | March 20, 2008 6:29 PM
49

Dan,

This is so off-topic that it's like off-track betting for ..turtles...or something. Anyway, in your latest Savage Love column you described Quebec hot men as being uncut. As a lesbian, I have no idea if this is true but perhaps you could investimigate further. You see, most of the vile-est swear words in Quebec are those concerning the Catholic Church. For instance: the term 'tabernacle' is akin to the big F word. Just have to say it with a french accent. This is not the case in Paris. The swear words are much more different. Which then leads me to suspect that much of Quebec is still Catholic, which could mean that lots of guys are still cut...because all of the boys I went to Catholic school....were cut.

Posted by sheila | March 20, 2008 6:46 PM
50

Turn it right back at her and start lecturing her in the most patronizing tone you can come up with. E.g., "Cursing out loud is better for your health because it's better to express your frustration than repress it," "Couples who can laugh at each other have a better relationship because they can understand and deal with imperfection," "It's inappropriate for you to judge others," "Satirical commentary has been one of the most positive forces through political history." I don't know if any of this stuff is actually true, just make shit up to counter her on every point (they stuff she spews sure is made-up). Either she'll get a clue or it'll drive her away, but you won't have to deal with her shit anymore. And you can have fun doing it =D

Posted by Ruby | March 20, 2008 7:32 PM
51

Hey, this is to Sheila and her suspicions of Quebec still being quite Catholic thus the men being cut.

During the Quiet Revolution, the people of Quebec pretty much told the Catholic Church to Fuck the Hell Off. Yeah, the origins of our swear words lie in the Church, but if anything, I think its quite fitting that the guy we gave the finger to be the source of our vilest swear words. Don't you agree?

Oh, and its tabernak. Tabernacle is English.


Posted by desflourane | March 20, 2008 7:33 PM
52

Yes, the friend is acting like a total douche. It seems that the "newly converted" are always self righteous for a while. Don't feel ashamed to put her in her place when she needs it, but chances are she'll be toning it way down soon.

Posted by Wes | March 20, 2008 7:48 PM
53

1 Corinthians 4:9-13a
I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one. For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges.

Her friend needs to STFU. Her ignorance has led to arrogance and truth be told, she needs to act like Jesus and love and hang out with and care for her friend. If she thinks Christianity is a moral crusade, she missed the point.

Posted by Mr. Joshua | March 20, 2008 9:42 PM
54

If your friend had a schizophrenic break or got into self destructive drug use, you'd try to help her right?

Becoming a Christian is no different. You need to stage an intervention. She has become insane. Try to help her make it temporary insanity.

Posted by toasterhedgehog | March 20, 2008 10:28 PM
55

One way to deal with sanctimonious Christians in their own terms is to point them to Matthew, chapter 6, verses 5-6:

‘And whenever you pray, do not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, so that they may be seen by others. Truly I tell you, they have received their reward. But whenever you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.'

Basically Jesus telling his followers to Keep Their Religion To Themselves!

Posted by matt | March 20, 2008 10:50 PM
56

I feel kinda lucky that my best friend went through her born again phase around the same time I went through my wicca phase. And that was more than ten years ago, when we were silly little teenagers. If our friendship can survive that, I think we're pretty much set.

And she's gotten so good at keeping her religion to herself by now that I'm not actually entirely sure she's still Christian. There's hope for the formerly deranged, of all sorts.

Posted by Lythea | March 21, 2008 1:51 AM
57

Here's a parallel story: When I was a few years sober from drugs and alcohol, I was going thru a rough patch and met my sober friend John (*not his real name) for coffee to discuss. John's "advice" was so cutting and judgmental that I felt betrayed and frustrated. He offered me advice that, frankly, I just don't think "real" people do in drastic situations. He offered me pie-in-the-sky, sanctimonious advice with a bit of judgment on the side.

Flash forward a couple of years later ... John confessed that he'd been using crystal meth secretly all those years.

So my sanctimonious, judgmental friend didn't know what the fuck he was talking about.

So ... this is just like this Christian chick. The advice she offers and the judgments she doles out are not "practical". They're sanctimonious words spoken by a Jesus-lover with too many hormones and endorphins clouding her thoughts.

Oy.

Posted by Matt | March 21, 2008 6:14 AM
58

Buy her some of those wal-mart fun straws. Then watch her suck it down.

Posted by Homo Will | March 21, 2008 7:28 AM
59

whenever anyone experiences a "conversion" the temptation is to get all excited about it and start preaching to your friends. This happens with people who suddenly realize we're ruining our planet and go super green, or who discover a new brand of make-up that's really amazing, or have a kid, or buy a house. This sort of conversion into a bossy asshole isn't unique to Christians. As you pointed out, you know plenty of Christians who aren't that way. It's a normal and natural thing for a friend who has suddenly found religion to be excited and preachy about it. Part of the learning process for her is going to be figuring out how this new belief system really works in the real old world. Be honest about how her behavior is impacting you and making you feel. She doesn't want you to feel that way, not if she cares about you. Maybe she'll rethink her approach and her new baby beliefs will have a chance to mature.

Posted by kissame | March 21, 2008 8:46 AM
60

I think it's obvious that Christian Friend is a lesbian.

Posted by Sirkowski | March 21, 2008 9:30 AM
61

This happened to me, with a friend that started badgering me to go to church and get right with God--and who also had a *lot* to say about how she was such a better mom than everyone else (including, I suspose, me!). I stopped talking to her.

I wish now I'd told her why I was cutting off all contact. My advice: Tell your friend it's clear you have too little in common to remain friends. Then end it! She'll either be happy once she's alienated everyone accept the other crazy fundies, or she'll be really lonely.

Posted by Les | March 21, 2008 11:56 AM
62

When an individual is "born again" they literally become a new person according to those who practice that particular belief system. Therefore DOH's old friend is dead. She is under no obligation to be friends with this newcomer.

Posted by inkweary | March 21, 2008 12:51 PM
63

There's nothing new about self-righteous Christians, unfortunately.

Posted by Lauren | March 22, 2008 11:30 PM

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