Comments on Re: A Mess in Texas?

wanton disregard for the caucus

"Numerous calls have been received that the Obama campaign has taken over caucus sites and locked the doors, excluding Clinton campaign supporters from participating in the caucus. The Clinton supporters have been unable to enter the premises to caucus. In at least one instance, law enforcement was called and forcibly opened the caucus site…"

I call bullshit. Seriously.

@2
that's what Bull Connor said in the early 60's too.
And that's what the Supreme Court told Gore in 2000.

All bullshit, outside agitators, stop the counting, do not let these complaints have their day in court!

How fair and democratic of you.

I don't get why the HRC campaign is so upset... I thought that caucus voters were just a bunch of hysterical party activists whose votes don't really mean anything anyway!

Classic Clinton manipulation.

I'd like to see direct testimonials from people who were locked out. I'm not saying it's not possible, but I'd still like to be sure that this isn't something like a bunch of people who showed up too late and are disgruntled over it.

Hate to say this, but I think Howard Dean (Mr. Man of the People, yeah, right) should be fired as DNC Head after all the fucking messes we've lived through - the caucus here in WA and other various states, Florida, Michigan, now this ridiculous crap in Texas - why in the hell couldn't we have a simplified and streamlined primary process?! What a joke!

only obama supporters were let in? only hillary supporters were kept out? how would they know that?

Classic, Chicago-style corrupt politics: if you can't win legitimately, cheat. Break the law if necessary. Why am I not surprised?

@9- Classic Clnton desperation, rather. If the voters arent supporting you, get superdelegates and lawyers involved.

@ 7 - is running state primaries and caucuses the responsibility of the national party chairman? I mean, Dean obviously has some influence, but I would assume the various electoral clusterfucks are the result of the state parties being shocked - shocked to discover how many people want to vote Democratic this year.

Nice to hear all the fair minded Obamatons resolve the compalints without demanding or allowing any proof. Yup, change, unity, let's end the old style divisive politics rah rah rah -- any compalint the other side brings is automatically rejected and smeared.

@6 is exactly right. You need to see the direct testimonials.

@8 they would know it by having reports phoned in from caucus goers.
Then they need to follow it up with sworn affidavits and other types of proof. If they see that it's there; if it isn't obviosuly they shouldn't pursue it.

unPC, the notion of you accusing anyone else of blatant, unthinking partisanship is hilarious.

I know there are first-hand accounts of Clinton campaigners locking out caucus-goers in Nevada.

They pull dirty tricks, then spin on a dime to accuse their opponent in their stead.

I hope the democratic convention falls apart and Al Gore is nominated as a dark horse wiith every major democrat politician falling in line to campaign vigorously on his behalf in the general. A girl can dream. Although we'd probably still lose.


How can the dems retain any credibility at this point? It's shaping up as a disaster.

Bicker all you want, the big winner tonight is McCain and the GOP. Party unity will be torn asunder regardless of who wins the nomination. Hordes of supporters on the losing side will surely be disspirited and simply not vote in the general election. And McCain will waltz right into the White House. The Dems have an amazing ability to lose elections. Simply remarkable that we stand a good chance of blowing it despite all the the negative feelings towards the Republicans. God we suck!

@8: Exactly. Unless it's a magical locked door that opens for Obama fans but not for Hillary, that story doesn't hold water.

MSNBC just called Texas for Hillary. Say what you will, she won the big states tonight.

"Voter Intimidation: Lock-out of Clinton caucus goers by Obama Campaign"

Ok, this is highly questionable. Are they saying that Obama supporters show up early, and Clinton supporters don't? Or that they are somehow turning away Clinton supporters at the door and letting Obama supporters in? So they are polling people at the door? Or maybe it's another example of working-class voters (read: Clinton voters) getting dienfranchised because they have to work all day and thus showed up later at the polls and thus were late for their caucus?

This all seems highly suspect but I'm waiting for some more info. Was there a rule about shutting the doors at a certain time? Is the caucus location always near the polling place? Did high voter turnout keep people from their caucus location while they waited in line at the ballot? There's still the question of how Hillary supporters were somehow differentiated from Obama supporters.

#12, why do you always assume that someone attempting to call bullshit on something pro-Hillary is an Obama supporter? Is your perception really that black and white? You're dangerously close to those masturbating to Bush's "principled" obsession with false dichotomy.

Any rational observer of this primary is capable of calling out pro-Hillary/anti-Obama bullshit for what it is (and there's a lot of it to choose from). They shouldn't have to be called an Obamaton and have marginalized Obama talking points put into their mouths by someone who likely is just bitter that Obama's rhetoric actually inspires people.

the saying "all politics are local" applies, with the addendum that local politics are often corrupt. Yes, we need documentation of irregularities. However, those who are dismissive of these claims on their face are naive. southern states (and certain northern cities) are notorious for messing with the voting process and such practices are not limited to republicans, Obama supporters or HRC supporters. We would be better off with UN observers to monitor the voting. better yet there should be live video internet coverage of all voting sites.

Most of the Obama supporters at my caucus behaved like "thugs" if they did not feel they had the advantage. It was really contentious and ugly.

They were only apologetic after they understood that election officials were sincerely attempting to keep things fair.

I'll wait until I hear more detail to make the final call but this whole thing doesn't seem likely.

@8&12
I see what 8 means and that's exactly why this all seems so unlikely. How do you keep Clinton supporters out but let Obama supporters in. Did they have a bouncer standing by the door asking who you're voting for and only let you in if you say Obama?

If these accusations are true it's shady at the least and possibly illegal. The people who did these things should be held accountable but I don't like the way the "Clinton campaign lawyer" seemed to be implying that Obama or the Obama campaign was doing these things. I don't buy for a second that Clinton, Obama, McCain or any other major candidate would risk the huge consequences of doing something like this. If anything it was some idiot local organizers that didn't understand the rules.