Comments on Enough Dilly Dallying: Let Me Just Jump Right Into It

Okay, Sven, but A#1, Obama Girl didn't actually care about the election that much. She was a model who was hired to do a job. A#2 even after she did the video she said she wasn't sure who she was going to vote for. A#2, Obama Girl's enthusiasm or lack of enthusiasm can't be equated to the enthusiasm of all the young people who have been showing up all over the country to caucus.

I mean you know me, I'm on your team, but eh... I don't agree with you on this argument.

"In a poll of one professed Obama supporter, we found that 100% of Obama supporters failed to show up for their local election. The margin of error was ~98%."

Like lonelygirl15, Obama Girl was a hired model/actress. Her role in the video was strictly professional. She probably has no interest in politics and definitely should not be taken as some representative of the Obama campaign or of Obama supporters.

Obama Girl is a stupid twat. So what? What does that have to do with me, or ANY other Obama supporter? Think I can't find a brain-dead Clinton supporter?

I don't give a flying fuck about the candidates' SUPPORTERS. I'm not voting for them.

Thanks for at least giving it a shot, Sven. Now I'm gonna go get some pizza for lunch (11:30 here).

Fail.

I can't. Just like no one can convince me that we (African Americans) are going to turn out to support Hillary in Nov.

I'm an Obama delegate in the next round here in WA, but I won't be shooting for a coveted National Convention delegate slot since I'll be at Burning Man. Do I prove your point?

Us youths are still a better bet than all the old white folks. Many of them will follow their security and experience kick all the way to mccain's side no matter who's nominated.

Yeah, this O Girl story is huge. She was the entire reason I ever liked Obama, and now that this bombshell has hit, I've switched to Hillary. I'm going to send her another $500 just because you mentioned it.

No seriously, if Obama were to go negative like Hillary, he won't win because the kids will stay home. And that's why Hillary can't win: besides underhanded attacks, she's got nothing. She doesn't inspire new voters, she only panders to the old guard. And attacks keep the soft supporters at home, ensuring a conservative victory.

But perhaps Hillary will be so negative in the process of losing the nomination that she will turn off the independents and the young long before Obama even has a chance to lure them to the polls for the general. So in that a sense, she could lose the predidency for the Demorats whether she is nominated or not.

It's time to start seeing this nomination contest as a decision about what kind of party the Democrats will have.

Yeah, Obama girl is a total straw person here. Sorry Sven. And I had definitely heard that tidbit before, since it happened over a month ago. Maybe it didn't get its own slog post, but whatever.

@1 - at least she showed up at Saturday Night Live. Now that shows committment, especially with the pro-Clinton feel there, so you have to give her props for doing that, even if it was only to popularize her modeling career even more ...

Not to use myself as an example but...

OK so I will use myself as an example. I'm 24-- so I guess that makes me "young". This will only be my 2nd presidential election (yes I voted for Kerry in 2004). I'm a passionate Obamafile and I will vote for him in the fall-- or if it should come to that-- I will vote for Clinton.

I'm a delegate to my county convention and *gasp* might even try and make it to state. But I promise to show up. I'm also on the Democratic Platforms Committee and have so far attended and participated in every meeting they have had/asked me to attend. I even wrote my very own platform on immigration which will (hopefully) be ratified by my county convention.

What should convince you, though, is that I've put a hit out on any Obama delegate that doesn't show up to the County Convention.

Oh and PS. I run the Mexican Mafia, so there will be no flakes-- at least none alive-- at my convention.

And the correct comparison with Obama Girl is Sleeping Girl from the 3 am phone call ad. Both were hired to be looked at, not for what they think. Amusing, but not to be taken seriously.

Robin Morgan pointed this out, too, in her essay "Goodbye to All That Again":

Goodbye to a misrepresented generational divide . . .

Goodbye to the so-called spontaneous “Obama Girl” flaunting her bikini-clad ass online—then confessing Oh yeah it wasn’t her idea after all, some guys got her to do it and dictated the clothes, which she said “made me feel like a dork.”

Goodbye to some young women eager to win male approval by showing they’re not feminists (at least not the kind who actually threaten the status quo), who can’t identify with a woman candidate because she is unafraid of eeueweeeu yucky power, who fear their boyfriends might look at them funny if they say something good about her. Goodbye to women of any age again feeling unworthy, sulking “what if she’s not electable?” or “maybe it’s post-feminism and whoooosh we’re already free.”

Some young feminists thought this was condescending, and maybe it was, a little. But when young women go on TV claiming they've NEVER EXPERIENCED SEXISM--and thus see no reason to vote for a woman (http://jezebel.com/367046/ms-matriarch-to-daughter-when-push-comes-to-shove-%5Bwhy%5D-cant-you-vote-for-a-woman) --I think it's reasonable to say, wait a minute, let's look at the facts.

Anyway: Like you, I hope the kids turn out and vote even if Obama isn't the candidate, and I hope the oldsters turn out even if Hillary isn't the candidate, too. Given that voting demographics have historically skewed older in both parties, I'm more concerned about the kids, too.

Erica! Please tell us why you want the kids or the oldsters or anybody to vote for somebody who isn't qualified for to be commander in chief. Please?

Bias! Sexism! Ageism! Racism! Anti-party-ism! You shouldn't be allowed to work at The Stranger! Oh, wait...

for every flaky young obama supporter, there's a hillary supporter on life support in a nursing home somewhere. unless shady pines is a polling place, they're probably not going to make it out to vote either.

Yes, historically, voter turnout among younger people has been low, and turnout among the geriatric crowd has been higher.

Nevertheless, Obama has had some success in drawing out younger voters. In many of the primaries, there have been a lot more younger voters than in the past, and they have overwhelmingly gone his way.

Whether Obama can continue that trend in the general election remains to be seen. And his success has been somewhat sporadic, better turnout in some states than others. But you have to give him credit for making real progress in engaging younger voters.

Oh, and I've been waiting for the Obama/Clinton flame war to start among the Friday Freaks. Good start!!

zzzzzzzzzzz.

Slogger Big SVEN supports Hillery Clinton and Hillery ClinTon supported teh war in Iraq. Nearly 4,000 troops have died in BIG SVEn’s war. When will big sVen apologui9ze for supporting Hillery cLinton?

Cpl. Thomas L. Hilbert, of Venus, Texas, a small town 30 miles south of Dallas. Hilbert, 20, and two other soldiers serving with the 9th Cavalry Regiment based at Fort Bliss, near El Paso, died after their vehicle was hit by an improvised explosive device on Sept. 6. Hilbert's sister, BillieJo Alexander, told the El Paso Times that her brother had already reserved a hotel room in Las Vegas to celebrate his 21st birthday with his family in January.

So why don\\\'t we apportion Big Sven his fair share of the carnage in Iraq? Let\\\'s arbitrarily assign him responsibility for the death of, say, an eight year old Iraqi girl. That sounds about right doesn\\\'t it? That still leaves 649,999 dead Iraqis to be apportioned out to Bush and the neo-cons and other war supporters.

Slogger Big SVEN supports Hillery Clinton and Hillery ClinTon supported teh war in Iraq. Nearly 4,000 troops have died in BIG SVEn’s war. When will big sVen apologui9ze for supporting Hillery cLinton?

Cpl. Thomas L. Hilbert, of Venus, Texas, a small town 30 miles south of Dallas. Hilbert, 20, and two other soldiers serving with the 9th Cavalry Regiment based at Fort Bliss, near El Paso, died after their vehicle was hit by an improvised explosive device on Sept. 6. Hilbert's sister, BillieJo Alexander, told the El Paso Times that her brother had already reserved a hotel room in Las Vegas to celebrate his 21st birthday with his family in January.

So why don\\\'t we apportion Big Sven his fair share of the carnage in Iraq? Let\\\'s arbitrarily assign him responsibility for the death of, say, an eight year old Iraqi girl. That sounds about right doesn\\\'t it? That still leaves 649,999 dead Iraqis to be apportioned out to Bush and the neo-cons and other war supporters.

well, if it makes you feel better, i'm 26 and this will be my third primary and third election i have voted in. i went bradley then nader in 00, dean then kerry in 04, and obama in the primary this year. i'll vote for whoever the democrat is this year, but i'll have to hold my nose while doing it if it's clinton.

Sven, based on my reading of the Slog comments back-and-forth, it seems that for every anecdotal example that an Obama supporter will present for improved youth turnout, Clinton supporters will present (a) an anecdotal counterexample, or (b) past turnout results for presidential elections since the 1972 campaign.

I'm curious (and I currently have no research to bring to the table either way) whether you believe that there's been a campaign since 1972 (where it seems that McGovern had support problems within the Democratic Party power structure) that can serve as a useful comparison. Specifically a campaign where a major candidate brought an influx of young support to the primaries who then didn't show up for the general?

My question in response to you is what will convince you that the youth vote will turn out, given that the turnout in either a Obama versus McCain or a Clinton versus McCain race is a future hypothetical? It's a loaded question, I know, but it seems like the only evidence you will accept is historical data that won't be available until after the election.

What do people have against ad hominems? I say, use 'em if you got 'em.

I smell sock puppetry.

Hey Sven: I suggest you save this posting and cram it down the throats of these little twits right after we lose the election to McCain (if Obama is the nominee). Us "old farts" have danced to this song before. . . . remember 2000 and 2004??? We relied on these little fucks to come out in droves; stupid us. These Obama fuckwads are the reason we had GW these last 8 years! If their IPOD breaks, they'll be in line at the Apple Store before they get around to the voting booths. Completely unreliable! (and to you little twits that don't like what I'm writing and want to wail about the caucuses and primaries. . . . . Presidents are elected in NOVEMBER, AT THE GENERAL ELECTION; not at primaries and caucuses. I have no faith in any of you; like Obama, you've done very little to earn any faith.

OK, using your logic, the girl in Hillary's 3AM commercial voted for Obama.

Please explain HOW Hillary will win if the most publicly visible Gen Z Hillary supporter votes for Obama?

Kindly figure out a way (without resorting to ad hominems) to convince us that Hillary supporters won’t flake out. Thanks.

Hey Jonglix @9: You make Sven's point pretty well, actually. The old folks aren't dependable for Obama, but they are dependable voters, unlike notoriously flaky youths. This is the worry...that all the fogeys will come out on voting day and vote in their fellow fogey McCain.

I can't shake the feeling that a lot of kids look at Obama like they would any other celebrity, which means their current mania (and voting power) could disappear as quickly as Britney's panties.

Please let me be wrong.

True story - from the caucus day

For my precinct the turnout was giant, and very pro Obama. Chatting with a circle of the Obama kids, yes they were young, none of the six were registered to vote!!!!

I got the forms for them and said they needed to do that and left it at that.

I fear the worst, many months to go, aint't fun no more, short attention spans - seems very fragile to me.

The Obama Girl is a bad example of the youth vote. You know what a good example of the youth vote would be? The youth vote.

I would be thrilled to see the youth of America rise up and vote in a new guard of politicians but historically they'd rather go out to happy hour than spend half an hour voting.

There's a reason politicians don't give a damn about young (18-25) people's views. Because historically they don't vote. When young people come out to vote en masse reliably politicians will pay attention.

OK, here's what we do next. Find a cute, young (16 or 17 year old), white pregnant woman in Chicago who says Obama's the daddy. Doesn't matter if it's true or not; the resulting scandal will take him down like a house of cards.

does anyone else see a style comparison between Obama girl and spitzer's Kristin?

Oh, @16 Elenchos, the easy answer is better to vote in the general election for a less qualified but inspirational leader with a 95% similar voting record to HRC and a worse health plan than HRC than to vote a PTSD suffering, anti-choice hawk who has the experience (read political savvy) to really mess up the country further and bury all the crimes of the Bush administration. Is that clear enough for you? you see it is possible to make distinctions between candidates without resorting to splitting (see primitive defenses).
Your divisive attacks only help the Republicans.

First off, though the day is still young, thank you Obama supporters for responding so conscientiously.

Secondly, I honestly did NOT know that Obama Girl was a hired model. I probably would not have posted on this subject had I known.

SDizzle@13, congrats on getting so involved in the Democratic process. That's the kind of commitment that makes me feel better about Obama's staying power.

Apocalypse Tom@24, to your question...

what will convince you that the youth vote will turn out, given that the turnout in either a Obama versus McCain or a Clinton versus McCain race is a future hypothetical?

...I don't have a good answer. I think I may just have to hold my breath and see how the general turns out (since he's almost certainly going to get the nod, regardless of what we oldsters think.)

But I do know that if Obama gets the nod and young people *do* come out, the change in the political landscape really will be revolutionary. In the best of ways.

Hillary's insistence on writing off the red states of bygone election cycles is of a piece with her desire to re-fight the battles of the last decade, including only those voters who were there for those elections.

It true the youth are flaky. They're still forming attitudes they will carry thorough their entire lives. But they are also the future of your party. You don't just jettison them for the sake of one election -- let alone one nominating contest. A candidate who would to that belongs in the same party as Joe Lieberman.

LMSW, Hillary did not say Obama was less qualified. She said he wasn't qualified at all, and she affirmed that McCain is qualified. These are not my divisive attacks. They are Hillary's. And don't act like it's just me saying this: Nancy Pelosi has broken her neutrality to speak to the same critical point. Pelosi is a loyal Democrat. Hillary is a loyal Clinton.

Hey Big Sven, since you've got the Slog bully pulpit for today perhaps you can spend some time answering some questions for me.

1) Hillary Clinton voted for the war in Iraq. She didn't read the 92 page NIE beforehand but claims that she was briefed on its content. Who briefed her given that no one on her staff was authorized to see the NIE? Do you, as a Clinton supporter, believe that it was acceptable for her to not even spend her time reading a 92 page document before voting for the AUMF?

2) Hillary Clinton voted for the war in Iraq, she has repeatedly defended that vote but also claimed that she was misled or didn't understand what she was voting for. Given that this either reveals her as mendacious or incompetent, why do you, as a Clinton supporter believe that she will do anything to end the war in Iraq.

3) Hillary Clinton has lied about or overstated her foreign policy experience. Her claims about her role in the peace process in Northern Ireland have been disputed by multiple sources on both sides of the Atlantic. Her claims about Bosnia were refuted by Sinbad (of all people). Her claims about advocating military intervention in Rwanda are refuted by a complete lack of documentation that she ever took such a position. Given this why do you feel that she is prepared to be Commander in Chief or to deal with foreign leaders.

3) Hillary Clinton failed to pass health care reform in 1994. This despite a Democratic House and Senate. She has also, according to a story in today's Boston Globe lied about her role in passing the S-CHIP bill. In fact the White House fought against the bill in it's first incarnation. Given this why do you feel that she's going to be able to accomplish anything with reforming the health care system?

4) Norman Hsu, Peter Paul, Marc and Denise Rich, the New Square Pardons. Please explain these. If they're all above board then please explain why the papers regarding the Marc Rich pardon have not been released.

5) Please explain why we should trust a candidate who will not release their tax returns, whose husband will not release the donor list from his library any more than we trust the paranoid and secretive Dick Cheney?

6) Do Clinton supporters believe that America should be governed by a dynasty consisting of two families, the Bushes and the Clintons? Are they even bothered by the idea of having two families holding the highest office in the land for 24 or even 28 years? Are Clinton supporters democrats or royalists?

7) Hillary Clinton's strategy during her campaign has been to dismiss any states where she did not win as not being significant in the fall. Her campaign surrogates such as Geraldine Ferraro, Bill Clinton, Billy Shaheen, Bob Johnson and Andrew Cuomo have all made comments about Barack Obama's race. Given her dismissive attitude towards Democrats in states where she lost and her campaign's ham-handed attempt to play the race card, and her non-apology apologies for the same why do you think that a) any red states might flip and go to Hillary Clinton this fall and b) why do you think that African Americans, a large bloc of voters that the Democrats depend upon will vote for someone who is using plays straight out of the campaign strategies of Lee Atwater and George Wallace?

Let me see... a beautiful, young woman is not interested in participating in the political process? I am shocked, sir! SHOCKED!

Beautiful people are, and this may come as a surprise, concerned about their looks and the attention they get because of them more than anything else. Frankly, I don't expect ANY models to go to the voting booth.

Fortunately, most people are not such vapidly handsome beauties. We call them "real people". Real people will vote and will be happy to utter the words "President Obama" in less than a year from now.

@15,

A little condescending? Maybe a little condescending?

Robin Morgan can go fuck herself.

@10

You're giving Hillary $500? Have you seen the delegate counts? Must be nice to throw away so much money on a whim.

Oh please we are still fighting the battles of ancient Greece. The youth are neither right nor left they just are.

The Obama youth have not been coming out in big enough numbers to win in the big non caucus states. Obama young voters beat Clinton by over 60% on super Tuesday II but he lost the popular vote in the three biggest states.

Does any Obama supporter have a good link to demographic breakouts in the primaries?

wile_e, I think you and unPC should be on the next docket of Freaky Friday writers. The dueling 2000 word screeds would be like having front row seats to the Merrimac / Monitor battle.

G'morning Sven

How old did you say you were again? "Us old farts"?

Signed,

Your #1 Fan

@42

why don't you try answering his/her questions?

not reading has 1) led you to write this lame uninformed post 2) kept you blind to hillary's lameness.

If Obama loses the General it will be because Clinton is a traitor to the party and a two facd liar. Not because the youth vote does or doesn't vote.

Big Sven and friends are already getting ready to rejoice after doing the dirty work for the GOP!

hopefully, they won't have done enough damage with their back stabbing that it can't be overcome.

Elenchos, I am not referring to HRC's attacks here. I don't like them either. I am referring to your parroting of them in multiple posts as some kind of flag for your cause. It is not convincing anybody. The problem is that the tone of discourse here is reflected around the country and has become so strident that people are becoming invested in their candidate to the exclusion of all other possible choices. We are alienating people we need to unite in order to win. Are you willing to say that you will vote for HRC if she gets the nomination? If not then the end result of your pride and principles will be support McCain.How will you reach out to former HRC supporters to support Obama if he gets the nomination? If you can vote for HRC in a general election, because you think a Clinton presidency would be better than a McCain presidency, then perhaps you can start working now on uniting the two sides rather than joining in with the negative rhetoric.

Frankly, I am far to the left of either Obama or HRC.To me they are both flawed. My support for HRC has been predicated on what appeared to be her chance of beating McCain based on two facts of political life in america. 1. America is still racist to the extent that it is unlikely that a black candidate can get elected . 2. I think Ohio where HRC is strong, is the key. I don't think red states will suddenly go blue. However if Obama gets the Nom, I will go out and support him, however I can. What will you do if either one gets the nomination?

Here is a suggestion. Perhaps if both Obama and HRC supporters started a net petition, requesting that both sides refrain from attacks (I know this applies more to HRC) it might actually shame them into acting more responsibly.

Thank god for wile_e, cochise, and cracked. I was starting to worry around the 30th comment or so that something was fundamentally wrong with the universe. You know it's an amazing day when Reality Check is the mature and balanced Obama commentator.

RC, I'm 39. Judging by SLOG Night, that makes me old compared to everyone except Will in Seattle.

@34 - Sven, thanks for your answer. I agree that it's a great unknown, and I think that arguing about presumptive turnout figures in the general is chasing after wind.

To ramble on a little more about this: I've been rereading Fear and Loathing '72, and I have a definite sense that the Democratic Party power structure has been afraid of the double-edged promise of the youth vote since McGovern. It's fascinating to me, because my sense of '72 was that two big factors in the scale of McGovern's failure were (a) the Eagleton fiasco, and (b) the failure of the party power structure to give McGovern much support. I'll grant you that most of my information on '72 comes from Hunter Thompson's reporting on the campaign, so it's fair to note the, uh, biased (angry, drug-addled?) source. However, the reason that I asked my question about previous campaigns is that it's not clear to me that there's an example campaign in which the "youth" candidate actually makes it to the general election, which means--as you graciously concede--that there's not much real data to go on. I'd love to know if there was a congressional campaign that reflected this.

@41 - You're seriously making the argument that because Obama isn't winning the big traditional Democratic states in the primaries, he won't win them in the general? Fallacious much?

@44 - Possibly because the post @37 fails to address Sven's original post, and appears designed to distract from his question?

hey wile_e_quixote,
all your points may be true and valid. The question is: Can Obama beat McCain? You likely think Obama can. I am worried that he can't but I sincerely hope that if he gets the nomination, he can. if he doesn't get the nomination, I would prefer HRC over McCain. given all your points, Would you recommend that Obama supporters vote for HRC over McCain if she gets the nomination by hook or by crook or would you prefer that they stick to your principles and support ABC, thus ceding the presidency to the republicans?

@48 the issue is not the "the big democratic states" its the battle ground states.

cracked: if Obama loses the general, there will be no rejoicing. that you say there will be, points to the real reason. This is the trope that republicans use about the democratic party in relation to the iraq war. That we hope it goes badly, that we are unpatriotic, that we are responsible for losing the war. You and your rigid splitting into absolutes and assigning blame on a grand scale are playing into the republicans hands.
If Obama loses the general it will be because collectively we democrats have not found a way to work together. Ironic that Obama supports the big tent but supporters like you undercut that message. Both sides should Try practicing what both candidates are preaching.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/O/OBAMA_CLINTON?SITE=NCAGW&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

@46

I see, LMSW. So Hillary can say anything she wants about the party's nominee to pick up a couple votes in Ohio, but anybody who holds her accountable after the fact is hurting the party? When McCain comes back and nails Obama with Hillary's greatest hits, are you going to be there to clean up that mess? Is Hillary?

If you're getting tired of hearing me harp on this, just wait until the GOP starts the drumbeat. We will never hear the end of Hillary saying Obama is unqualified. That nasty job will live long after Hillary for President is a distant memory.

The Democratic party does not need a President who is disloyal to the party. How is she going to corral votes in Congress when she has a history of stabbing Democrats in the back? Who can trust her now?

This is disgusting how you want to turn this around and blame the Obama camp. It is exactly the same as Hillary's henchmen blaming Obama for Ferarro's racism.

@ 27... 31... etc.

In every election politicians pander to old people (and when I say old people, I mean everyone who's not youth-- which these days is something like 30 and up). Well guess what, the reason Obama is getting youth vote is because he reached out to youth BEFORE he was even a serious contender. It's always "politicians will pay attention to youth when youth vote". Well it's never going to be that way.

When you're in a nursing home somewhere in Timbuktu unable to remember your own name we'll be trying to clean up the political mess you left us and politicians will still be wondering how to get us to vote.

Stop wondering when the youth will vote, put issues important to them in the spotlighte, let them know you care BEFORE you need them and they will come.

But if the world's gonna end anyday, Sven, then why does this matter?

Apocalypse Tom-

From "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas":

"And that, I think, was the handle - -that sense of inevitable victory over the forces of Old and Evil. Not in any mean or military sense; we didn't need that. Our energy would simply prevail. We had all the momentum; we were riding the crest of a high and beautiful wave. So now, less than five years later, you can go up on a steep hill in Las Vegas and look West, and with the right kind of eyes you can almost see the high-water mark - that place where the wave finally broke and rolled back."

I just don't want history repeating itself. I will cross my fingers and invoke the Aztec panther god...

Elenchos. The issue I am raising is tone. I am in favor of holding politicians accountable, in a civil tone. If you want to be more emphatic make your arguments more articulate and eloquent.

1. The argument that HRC's attacks are somehow unique and give the GOP ideas that they wouldn't have used otherwise, is naive. I have heard the GOP's attacks for a long time. I am fully aware of what they will say. They will say them whether HRC says them or not. I wish she wouldn't. As I have said before, I think they are divisive. Further, you don't seem to think much of Obama if he can't fight back against McCain using HRC's greatest hits. I said nothing to blame Obama personally, whereas you are using ad hominem and guilt by association attacks against HRC supporters and myself. Perhaps you should check out the latest statement by Obama on the inflamatory remarks by his former Pastor here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/barack-obama/on-my-faith-and-my-church_b_91623.html
or the ap article about how both candidates would like their supporters to be nicer.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080314/ap_on_el_pr/obama_clinton

2. Actually, Yes, HRC has said she will be around to support Obama if he gets the nom. additionally yes, I will be working for him if he gets the nom. It might not be much but I am willing to try. I don't think that gets her off the hook and I made suggestions about how to address her tactics, but what about you? will you be working to enlist former clinton supporters without further alienating them? How may I ask will you do that if you have spent the entire campaign casting aspersions at her and her supporters. You know we can't win without them. Are you just going to take them for granted?
3. You have stated what the democratic party doesn't need. What the democratic party doesn't need is another presidential loss. Can you address the question of a possible choice for the country between McCain and HRC? Its funny because if you say that you will stay home or vote third party before you support HRC, you will effectively be repeating exactly the argument you attack HRC for making. that McCain is a better choice.

To summarize, you haven't answered the questions I asked. Why not? You have attacked me and HRC supporters generally. Is it because you don't know how to build consensus? Are you only comfortable attacking? This does not seem to be change.

If I was a conspiracy theorist I would say that you were actually a right wing plant sowing dissension in the ranks. But sadly, the most likely explanation
is that you are more invested in being righteous than in actual change. Change requires persuasion. Your attacks are not persuasive. try something new.

Nobody said that calling Obama unqualified was a unique idea. What Nancy Pelosi meant when she said that either candidate offering VP to the other is off the table now is because Hillary said it. It's one thing for Obama to defend himself against the GOP -- everyone expects the GOP to say that.

Now he has to explain why his fellow Democrat thinks he is unqualified. That's huge.

Remember when Bill Clinton said the two of them on one ticket would be a dream team? He said they'd be unbeatable.

Well, that dream team is off the table. Not possible now. That's how permanent the damage is.

So how is Hillary going to defend Obama against her own charge that he is unqualified? Nobody believes anything I say? Don't listen to me, my judgment sucks? Hillary is a liability now and she can't campaign for Obama.

Why do you keep accusing me of saying I'm going to stay home? Why do you keep accusing me of wanting to vote for McCain? What are you talking about?

Elenchos. Thank you for toning it down. My question is:

Are you committed to a democratic victory no matter who gets the nomination?

The reason I ask is that you are so vehemently anti HRC that I wonder if you would support her candidacy if by some remote chance she won or stole the nomination.

If you are committed to a democratic victory then I would suggest you tone down your rhetoric because it does not build a coalition. The intensity of your rhetoric actually spreads doubt about Obama because of its anger. voters don't trust anger, they trust charisma and confidence. they don't want to be told that their candidate, who is losing the nomination, is untrustworthy and sucks, they want reassurance that we will all come together to win in November. Measured persuasive rhetoric will build a coalition, extreme rhetoric will not. You have to let them down gently not rub their noses in it. Since extreme rhetoric does not build a democratic coalition, by using extreme rhetoric you are effectively supporting the republican opposition. This is just what you have been accusing HRC of. I agree that HRC has been on the attack and I agree there has been damage, and but it is only as permanent as we, the democrats allow it to be.

I agree that democratic doubt in a democratic candidate is a serious issue., however despite your assertions to the contrary, many people do listen to Hillary. Otherwise they would not still be voting for her. Also Obama seems to be able to address it. Plus he has lots of reasonable supporters. Further, I expect that most democrats will realize that a less experienced (please don't argue the point, even Obama reframes the question as one of judgment) democrat is better than McCain.

Do you understand what I am saying?

I have to drive for a few hours. take care.

LMSW - you are a rockstar and my hero of today, for what that's worth. Thanks for your tone and your civility and your common sense.

I wish I could follow your example more often, but I let my emotions get the better of me far too much. Thanks again and may your drive be a safe one.

Yes, I've noticed since day one that Hillary has been running around telling everybody else what they can and can't say. And I've noticed that she thinks she can say anything she likes and get away with it.

So from day one we have listened to Hillary and her people try to silence or weaken her opponents with these phony attempts to elevate the discourse. All the while, it has been Obama how has run a classy campaign and Hillary who has attacked from the gutter. You can't cry wolf this many times and think it's going to fool anybody.

Remember how Hillary started out with more of the black vote than Obama? But as soon has she started to lose them, she turned on a dime and drove blacks away, instead pandering to the soft racist vote? That's who your candidate is. That kind of politics needs to be rejected by the Democratic party. I agree that we need to build a coalition, but a unity requires a clear rejection of Clinton style campaigning.

So what I'm telling you this: I'm not falling for it.