Perfectly stated.

Yeah, Obama is just a dumb, lucky teenager, right?

I completely sick of all of this pro-Obama propaganda. Please, spare us.

Frankly, I don't care that Hillary "voted for" the war in Iraq. I also don't want the next president to just "pull out" after the mess we've made. How un-humanitarian is that!

Obama will NOT "...flush these (anti-progressive) nutjobs out of their caves and into the light, where they will die." That's a complete joke, perfectly illustrating how naive the Obama zombies are.

Obama hasn't been around long enough (nor taken positions string enough) to create arch-enemies, but he will. He will. Just wait.

But meanwhile, please take the blinders off.

Yeah, screw all that pro-Obama propaganda around here, I haven't seen a lengthy, overdrawn, insane pro-Hillary rant on the Slog in ages! Oh wait...

While we're talking the war and a safe career in the Senate, let's not forget to take a look at Obama's record, too. This apparent vague unwillingness to consider any details at all, is by far my absolute least favorite part about Obama's supporters.

Well stated indeed. "Hillary Clinton: Bush With Balls" is the best bumpersticker to date. There's a very good rant (two, actually) in the current Eat the State! that sums up Clintons' (yes, both of them) crimes and reasons not to vote for her or reminisce fondly for him.

http://eatthestate.org/

josh, just because his speeches don't have a ton of policy in them doesn't mean that obama doesn't have policy. if you want to be bored while watching a speech, you can go watch clinton. i like to see obama's amazing, uplifting speeches, then go to his website to read his policy. seems like that's the best way to win an election and inspire people.

Obviously Anthony hates women.

Um... Hilary did what she thought was right at the time. What else could she, or anyone else do? As far as Obama goes, try as I might to like him, he just looks shifty to me. Shifty, with a side order of creepy. I don't like his eyes one little bit. Then again, I am a foreigner, what would I know? I think your present president looks like a monkey and tells lies.

God dude. Anthony Hecht, do you really hate women that much? Basically you're saying you love killing girl babies, am I right? I guess your role as the IT god keeps your stash of female circumcision porn safe from the feds, eh?

Just kidding.

I don't think too many people really believe that Obama is soft and Hillary is hard. It's just a rhetorical device: you say "OK, fine, Hillary is a ballbuster. Hillary is nothing but an attack dog. I grant you that. It follows that she is therefore best qualified not for POTUS, but Veep. QED."

And so on.

The arguments that she is a palooka beaten down by Roger Ailes and Karl Rove are similarly turned back on her.

Why do we talk about this crap? We would rather talk about her poor judgment in voting for the war. But Hillary's fans want to change the subject and talk about who is more of an attack dog. Fine. I can play that too. Pure theater. But if they want to talk substance, we can do substance too.

It's cool that you and me are both computer guys who only post to the Slog while drunk. Right on, bud.

Clearly, Anthony, you support glass ceilings, honor killings and rape. Why do you hate women so much?

Shit, ya'll, I loves the womens! I'se totally drunk, I said!

Anthony Hecht:

How do people get all up in Obama’s face about these little out-of-context statements he’s made, while ignoring the fact that CLINTON VOTED FOR THE WAR IN IRAQ?

Can I have a ruling? Does pointing out that Iraq War vote make Anthony Hecht a raving, sexist Hillary hater?

Fareed Zakaria of Newsweek has a good perspective on the mindset behind the Iraq vote, and it has to do with, of all things, America's policy towards Cuba:

Obama has advocated easing the Bush-imposed ban on Cuban-Americans visiting the island and sending money to their relatives. He makes a broader case for a new Cuba policy, arguing that capitalism, trade and travel will help break the regime's stranglehold on the country and help open things up.

Clinton immediately disagreed, firmly supporting the current policy. This places her in the strange position of arguing, in effect, that her husband's Cuba policy was not hard-line enough. But this is really not the best way to understand Clinton's position. In all probability, she actually agrees with Obama's stand. She is just calculating that it would anger Cuban-Americans in Florida and New Jersey.

Can I have a ruling? Fareed Zakaria = raving, sexist Hillary hater?

@9

What could she have done?

She could've read the NIE.

She could've supported the Levin amendment.

She could've voted against the war like dozens of other Democrats.

She could've acknowledged what a huge fucking mistake not doing any of the above was.

Imagine Hillary gets nominated, as does McCain.

Hillary has a higher chance of losing against a strong Republican candidate like McCain. He has a higher electability than all other Republicans. Hillary unites Republicans in deep hatred of the Clinton brand. Obama doesn't.

Don't get me wrong. Any Democrat has a high electability, this election. But the candidate who provokes less hate among independents and Republicans is Obama.

If Obama doesn't win the nomination, Democrats have a higher chance of losing in November.

If she ends up the nominee, I will vote for her. But I just don't like her. That's all. I don't hate her. I don't hate Bush either. Really, she's not on my radar. But BHO is a different story. Can you imagine the message we would be sending to the world (ahem, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan...) if we had a brown man as President? I think there is some value there. Plus, for some reason I find him inspiring, in a Robert Kennedy kind of way. When I see the Clintons I just want to change the channel. Erica, I can make these decisions without hate entering the equation.

I encourage folks to read that whole Zakaria piece in Newsweek. I feel it really captures the essence of the Clintons as political animals and as creatures of their time.

Anthony-

Very creative use of bold and italics.

+10 points for enthusiasm. Much like your candidate.

Alex @9 on the Iraq invasion vote: Um... Hilary did what she thought was right at the time. What else could she, or anyone else do?

Alex, that's quite a reassuring interpretation of Hillary's Iraq War vote. So she wasn't being cold and calculating, she was just being clueless?

I encourage people to look up not only Obama's 2002 anti-war speech but also Al Gore's 2002 anti-war speech. You read those two speeches with five-plus years of hindsight and "clueless" is one word that does not come to mind.

to be clear: I don't hate Clinton. I will happily and fervently support her if she is the nominee. I just don't think she's the best choice, and I don't buy that she's somehow a better republican fighter than Obama.

As someone once said in Slog comments: "Obama = Democratic turnout machine. Clinton = Republican turnout machine. "

Anthony, your refusal to respect the will of middle-aged and elderly Democratic-voting women everywhere is deeply troubling indeed. The only way your misogyny could be made more blatant is if you also posted a picture of Scarlet Johansson showing a small amount of skin.

@13,

Someone should ask for her opinion on Elian Gonzalez.

Somewhat off topic, but I was just thinking about the inanity of our Cuban policy. Infiltrating Cuba with American culture and crass consumerism could very well be what finally brings the regime down, but our politicians are too busy pandering to a tiny number of Cuban Americans to take the sensible path.

"Voting for someone because they’re a woman, or black, is just as fucked up as voting for someone because they’re not. Vote for the person who will make the best president. THAT’s equality."

Oh. I thought I was supposed to vote for the Most Electable person... no? Like, ohmygod, I have to think? I can't just vote like it's my high school popularity pissing contest vote for The Electable? I guess I'll go look at Iowa, NH and then tomorrow's results so everyone else can tell me who is Electable. And I need to re-read the Dummies Guide to Voting chapter on 'Electability' (see J.F.Kerry's picture there).

Drunk or sober, good point Anthony.

f.w.i.w., it's not the lack of details in Obama's (admittedly good) speeches that I was complaining about above. It's the way that everyone here is thrilled to tear Clinton apart for her vote on the Iraq war resolution, yet forgets to mention what Obama has done beyond his 2002 speech to stop or change the course of the war.

Hillary voted for the invasion, and supported the occupation, in order to maintain her political viability. She figured that it would be a cakewalk, and that she'd end up on the wrong side of history, or at least looking unpatriotic and weak, if she didn't play ball for team USA. She has always been an opportunist and will always make the right choice for herself over the right choice.

All I know is the average person I listen to on the street, in cafes, in diners, and so on is for Obama.

Clinton is for the insiders.

Hear, hear!

"Voting for someone because they're a woman, or black, is just as fucked up as voting for someone because they're not. Vote for the person who will make the best president. THAT's equality."

First of all, wanting to see the first woman or person of color be president is not "reverse discrimination", is not the same thing as sexism or racism, and is not "just as fucked up" as male chauvanism or white supremacy.

Second, very few Americans actually vote for "the person who will make the best president", and the media almost universally discourages them from doing so. If they vote at all, they vote for the person they think is the lesser of two evils, and/ or most electable (as in, raised a lot of money, is within one of the two dominant parties, is supposedly centrist, and, most importantly, is someone you think is "likeable").

OBAMA SPOKE AGAINST THE AUMF in 2002, and then at the 2004 convention -- admittedly for political convenience -- buried his opposition to it in a backpedaling mealymouthed mumble.

What would the pussycat have done for political convenience in the genuinely challenging political context of the Senate in 2002? There's no way you'll ever know.

Right-of-center voters ARE joining Obama the craze in droves. Why? You're missing the loudest dog whistle in town. Concrete details of The Dream are still under wraps, but his top policy team is the brain trust you'd put together for a screeching right turn away from progressive objectives.

How else would he usher in an age of government by consensus where rightwing oppo melts away? He won't say, and you can't imagine ... can you?

Study up on the Audiology of Hope, at The Confluence:
http://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/

the way that everyone here is thrilled to tear Clinton apart for her vote on the Iraq war resolution, yet forgets to mention what Obama has done beyond his 2002 speech to stop or change the course of the war.

Huh? Hillary helped open Pandora's Box, and you're faulting Obama for not stuffing the demons back in? Hillary ran to a semi parked up the hill, released the brakes and took it out of gear, and now that it's racing down hill, you're faulting Obama for not stepping in front of it, commanding it to stop?

You're weird.

Hmmmm...

his top policy team is the brain trust you'd put together for a screeching right turn away from progressive objectives.

Did Obama sign up for Bill's Democratic Leadership Conference when I wasn't looking? While Hillary was in the White House, Bill signed NAFTA, sending good-paying blue collar jobs to Mexico, Bill signed welfare reform, sending single mothers off in the predawn to work shit jobs for shit wages, while their crack-dealing brothers babysat, and Bill invaded Kosovo. Before her White House stint, Hillary was on the Board of Directors of employee-screwing Wal-Mart. Which progressive objective have the Clintons ever stood for?

But if you think women are better than men, then it makes perfect sense to vote for Hillary!

(/irony)

A vote for HRC is a vote for concentration camps for chickens!

Rise up sister chickens! Demand your freedom from the tyranny of the oppressor Clintons!

We have nothing to lose but our feathers!

yo mama -- FYI, Obama's point man on domestic policy (Goolsbee) is also the DLC's Senior economist. Obama's point gal on human rights (Power) fought like hell to get Bill to invade Kosovo (though as you may recall, we never invaded - the NATO combat phase was all air war).

yomama - PS - NAFTA? Obama's guy is an over-the-top free trader ("there's no one more in favor of open markets"), and Obama's platform is free trade plus harm reduction (education, mostly).

His entitlements guy (Liebman) is pro-privatization.

His health policy guy (Cutler) sneers at single payer.

What ... you didn't know?

OK, RonK: now that we've established that Obama is almost as non-progressive as Hillary, which third-party candidate are you voting for?

cressona @ 19. Clueless is your word. I think that "cold and calculating" aren't talents that a politician or a President can *survive* without. In my humble opinion she was guaranteed to take damage from people no matter which way she jumped. She had a choice, back then when your whole country was insane, she could choose to be ripped to shreds as as a "weakling" an "appeaser" and a "traitor" by the loonies, which would have resulted in no chance at the Presidency, or she could knuckle under then and take her lumps later from the people with long memories, IF (very important) and only if, the decision proved wrong. Which it did. Back then, she chose option B. If you think that she should have chosen option A for reasons of idealism, you are the clueless one. And if she had, I don't think we'd be having this exchange today, because the likes of Bill O'Reilly would have finished her off a couple of years back. Such is democracy. Live with it.