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<title>Slog - Comments on &quot;Hey Science! Bite Me!&quot;</title>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me</link>
<description>I&apos;m on the Seattle City Light &quot;Green Up&quot; plan, and I dispute your logic. While I don&apos;t expect immediate change to come from my $12 green fee, I do believe that more people signing up for the program increases the perceived demand for alternate energy sources, which will eventually attract people who are eager to create supply for that demand. I&apos;m voting with my dollars in our capitalist democracy. This path still requires responsible power consumption, and while I can&apos;t speak for the general public, I can at least say that my own power consumption has not increased since I...</description>
<copyright>Copyright 2008</copyright>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:12:00 -0800</pubDate>
<lastBuildDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 10:10:12 -0800</lastBuildDate>
<generator>http://www.movabletype.org/?v=3.34</generator>
<docs>http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss</docs> 

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<title>Comment by Trevor</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>Your "scientific" analysis doesn't explain why increased consumption in the short term somehow precludes planning for the long term phasing out of coal, gas, and nuclear power. If increased short-term consumption of energy is the cost of developing economies of scale in experimental green energy industries, so be it. </p>

<p>But is that even the choice we're faced with? Missing from your "empiric observations": the option to develop new pricing/ tax strategies for dirtier industries (the "free market" is always regulated in some way), and the potential for use of wind power in eastern washington to free up additional hydropower energy that could lessen the impact of reducing our use of coal, nuclear, and gas energy.</p>]]></description>
<author>Trevor</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919432</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919432</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:40:33 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by vooodooo84</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>they need to charge extra for the dirty power, not the other way around</p>]]></description>
<author>vooodooo84</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919434</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919434</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:41:14 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by Jerod</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>"Voting with my dollars in our capitalist democracy" is the funniest thing I've read all day.</p>]]></description>
<author>Jerod</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919450</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919450</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 12:48:46 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by F</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>Science is right.  Read up on Jevons paradox.  <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox</a></p>]]></description>
<author>F</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919484</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919484</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:08:15 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by Will in Seattle</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>@2 is correct.</p>

<p>The only way to use the market leverage of the capitalist economy is to have a surcharge for pollution - including global warming emissions - on each power source.</p>

<p>Right now, without the surcharge, wind power is cheaper than oil, and competitive with other supplies.</p>

<p>With a surcharge, wind is the cheapest in this area, and sources like solar and tidal suddenly become viable.</p>

<p>It's what the Green GDP (TM) is all about.</p>]]></description>
<author>Will in Seattle</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919490</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919490</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:10:18 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by ticky-tack</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>There is no wind power being generated in eastern washington.</p>]]></description>
<author>ticky-tack</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919505</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919505</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:17:36 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by Jonathan Golob</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>@6 <a href="http://www.ppmenergy.com/cs_stateline.html" rel="nofollow">The Stateline Wind Energy Center</a><br />
<blockquote>Along the Oregon-Washington border, in Walla Walla, Washington and Umatillla County, Oregon.</blockquote></p>

<p>It *is* an impressive wind power project.</p>]]></description>
<author>Jonathan Golob</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919510</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919510</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 13:21:45 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by *gong*</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>@ 6)</p>

<p>Are you being facetious?</p>]]></description>
<author>*gong*</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919611</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919611</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:16:12 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by elenchos</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>Unless anyone can tell us in which episode of Gilligan's Island the Professor told anyone to bite him, I'd say "bite me" is not the kind of answer we can accept from Science.</p>

<p>Aside from that, it never stops being fun to watch how much special pleading it takes to keep from admitting that capitalism is incapable of solving the problems capitalism creates.</p>]]></description>
<author>elenchos</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919636</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919636</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:26:01 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by Bellevue Ave</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>elenchos, do you know what the word for pollution is in economics?</p>]]></description>
<author>Bellevue Ave</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919643</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919643</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:30:00 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by Bellevue Ave</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>also elenchos, how does government solve this problem? </p>]]></description>
<author>Bellevue Ave</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919646</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919646</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:31:31 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by Charlie</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>The only problem with your argument Jonathan, is that it's pretty much totally wrong.</p>

<p>Buying green power credits does have an impact. Though the power being generated using wind in Walla Walla is not being piped directly to my house, it replaces dirty power on the grid. </p>

<p>The amount of demand on the grid has to remain in balance with the amount of power being generated at any given moment (transmission control areas calculate this balance every two seconds). Where the specific electrons that make your lights work come from geographically  doesn't matter. What matters is that there are exactly enough the same number of them available on the grid that we all ask for at all times. If I am paying a premium for wind power to light my home, that means the utility is purchasing power from wind generators to meet my needs. If I didn't pay for that power, they'd purchase it instead from coal or gas plants. This directly removes the need for more coal-generated power to meet the demand I make on the grid. Conceivably, we could all do this and obviate the need for coal plants altogether (wind, FWIW, has other issues that make this impossible at this time. Notably, we can't make the wind blow when we need more power on the grid.)</p>

<p>You're actually making a second impact when you buy that wind energy. What you end up owning are the green-energy credits attached to those specific kilowatts. Because you own them, no one else can buy them unless you sell them since each watt (megawatt actually) equals a "renewable energy credit. These things are tracked, audited and counted. Each one can only be created once. If more people want green energy than there is actually green energy, more wind farms/solar plants/geothermal plants have to be added to the grid.</p>

<p>That's not to say that we don't use too much energy. We do. We all need to be more efficient by using CFLs, running only full loads in the washing machine (that is energy star compliant) etc. But to say that buying wind from your utility isn't doing anything is flat out wrong.<br />
</p>]]></description>
<author>Charlie</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919705</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c919705</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2008 14:52:31 -0800</pubDate>
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<title>Comment by Greg</title>
<description><![CDATA[<p>@10: Most companies' pet economists spend a lot of time and brainpower trying to avoid figuring the cost of pollution, it seems. So I'd call it a 'hidden cost' or a 'swept-under-the-rug cost.'</p>]]></description>
<author>Greg</author>
<link>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c920484</link>
<guid>http://slog.thestranger.com/2008/02/hey_science_bite_me#c920484</guid>
<category>Science</category>
<pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2008 10:10:12 -0800</pubDate>
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