I don't know that that is bullshit. I think the media has played a pretty decent role in increasing at least stated racial tolerance, and sports are a clear factor in the advance of civil rights. Otherwise, Jackie Robinson wouldn't have mattered.
I'd like to see that for Hilary, but the last pane would have to go back to the Olsen twins or a starved Nicole Richie. Or maybe Monica Belluci or Amanda Knox, right Chuckles?
Yeah, the first slide could've been a kid watching 'I'm Gonna Get You Sucka' and the second slide could've been a poster of Snoop Dog in front of a pot leaf, and the cartoon would've made the same amount of sense.
Reading the comic as one white kid's progression--from learning that non-white people can be smart and successful and funny from Cosby, to learning that they can accomplish amazing feats from Jordan, to realizing that a non-white president would be an awesome idea--is perfectly non-offensive.
But reading it as an equation where Bill Cosby plus Michael Jordan equals Obama makes my skin crawl.
Posted by
David Schmader |
February 7, 2008 12:18 PM
Schmader, you missed a chance to say Horse(y)shit.
But seriously, this is why the cartoon is wrong: because it implies that the only notable thing about Obama, the only thing white voters care about and the reason for his success, is that he is a black man.
Obama has superficially at least little or nothing in common with either Cosby or Jordan, except for his color. To compare them in a visual medium, without an explanation...is to imply that a white fascination with a black man is the main - indeed only - reason for Obama's popularity.
I was going to agree with 9, about not knowing why I'm offended even though I feel it, but then I think 14 managed to put it very well. I'll co-op 14, please.
Obama is more like Tiger Woods. He's black in the racial sense, but not really culturally. They both have touch of the kind of Asian religion that doesn't scare old white people.
The idea that support for Obama is the natural outcome of a (white) nation brought up on Bill Cosby and Michael Jordan is exactly what made me use the word bullshit.
Posted by
David Schmader |
February 7, 2008 12:25 PM
That cartoon just struck me as pointing out the reliance of people on media's presentation of people. All about the superficiality of appearance, not on their substance. Like that American Apparel endorsement of Obama: Oh, he's so cool in his leather jacket.
I think the point the cartoon is making is fair. Kids that grew up with Bill Cosby and Michael Jordon in their lives won't have a huge objection to voting for Obama.
It's the progression of the kid, not of black people in the media.
If it's a choice between that guy who draws for the Seattle Times and Horsey, I'll take the guy who can draw, even if he pulls a clam like this Obama cartoon out of his pooper once in a while.
In 1988, Jesse Jackson won several caucuses and primaries and was a credible candidate for the Democratic nomination. Why isn't HE in the first panel? Especially since Lisa Bonet had left "The Cosby Show" by 1988 and it had long begun to suck.
David, I think you're trying too hard to read something into the comix that is not there. I don't see any racism. I don't see understand your math,
B.C. + M.J. = Obama. Balance that equation please.
Posted by
Sargon Bighorn |
February 7, 2008 12:37 PM
For many of us in the 1980s Cosby and Jordan and Eddie Murphy and so many other cultural touchpoints were part of what turned us against the racist ramblings of our fathers and grandfathers. They presented the view we didn't get listening to our dad's bitch about blacks moving into the neighborhood. So in that regard those guys did indeed 'soften' us or at least paved the way for white america. I see it as more of an homage to what those guys accomplished in the American psyche
The fact of the matter is that his race does matter in this election. Of course he's a brilliant guy with great ideas and an inspirational speaker to boot. But if he wasn't black we wouldn't be feeling this historic opportunity to make such a monumental leap. It doesn't have to be the only reason, but it sure as hell is one of the reasons and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
So Bill Cosby in 1988 was the first time white kids saw a black man in a positive light? There's a problem with that. For starters, it's not even the first time they saw BILL COSBY in a positive light; "I Spy" was on in NINETEEN SIXTY-FIVE. Granted, most Young Americans don't know about "I Spy", but that just raises the question of why this same cartoon doesn't feature, say, Cosby in '65, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in '75, and Jesse Jackson in '85.
If anything, the theme of the cartoon to me is: "Black people: always back on square one".
Hmmm. I read it a slightly different way. Not as "one white kid's progression", but as, who are the African-American role models that young white kids had to look up to at different times. "For Young Americans, a progression", not, for one person, a progression.
In other words, in the 80s and 90s, the only mainstream black role models were TV stars and athletes. In the 00s, we have this amazing person that is Obama. And, isn't that awesome....
it's just a comic, so it choose a couple of big moments that fit with the main character's time line. we've grown up in a world where people who were black were visible, heroes, part of the community, you name it.
it's certainly not funny, nor insightful. but it did generate conversation. and did those moments lead to the moment of today, or were those moments just part of the fluid progression?
@33
Because it's about young Americans, not middle aged ones. And i think he was just picking 1988 because it helped break the strip into a balanced 3 panels of 10 year increments. 88, 98, 08.
DAVID - GET OFF THE PIPE, THE CARTOON TELLS THE STORY OF DECREASING RACISM, THANKS TO MODERN MEDIA AND VERY SHARP FOLKS LIKE COSBY, THE SO AWESOME TO EVERYBODY ESP. KIDS, MAGNIFICENT MICHAEL JORDAN, ETC.
==== CHANGE ===== OBAMA HAS A GOOD CHANCE
Posted by
Seattle Hippie |
February 7, 2008 1:07 PM
A guy I know made this point about a year ago when confronted with the "conventional wisdom" that America isn't ready for a black president. He pointed out that there are a lot of not-particularly-progressive white 20 and 30 somethings that are used to not just tolerating, but rooting for, black heroes. My skin's not crawling from this one.
Jesus Christ it's a fucking cartoon you guys are analyzing as if it were a state of the union speech. “I’m offended but I'm not sure why”, because you're a fucking pansy ass that’s always looking for something to be offended by.
@38: Fnarf, David Horsey got it right picking these three for my age group. These are the major black figures on TV I recall from when I was those ages.
@47. Agreed. I was 9 in 1988 and loved the Cosby Show. They were absolutely the most high-profile, African-Americans figures in my life (being from middle-of-nowhere in the Midwest). And, Jordan was absolutely the #1 figure in sports in the 90s).
So... for those in their 20s who are supporting Obama so strongly now, those icons are appropriate.
@48. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit. More likely, I just interpreted the cartoon based on my own frame of reference (since everyone here has a difference frame of reference, everyone's interpretations will be different).
My frame of reference being that I lived in a town with virtually no African-Americans (there were exactly 2 black kids in my high school), and that Cosby and Jordan really were the biggest mainstream African-American figures when I was a kid.
So, if we want to follow the same progression...the gays just need a major sports star somewhere now, and we can field a candidate for President in ten years?
at least charles hasnt offered a deconstruction where he says the young person is actually black and all the black people in the cartoon are actually white.
or that jordan and cosby are capitalist uncle toms that oppress the "young white man, who is actually an old negro" by offering him entertainment that draws his attention away from being a jive talking brother laborer.
Hmm. I saw it as three cases where popularity (or admiration) transcends race. Nobody talked about Cosby as a show about black people (for good reason -- race was seldom addressed except in certain "special" episodes). Jordan was/is popular worldwide as a spectacular athlete, not a black athlete. And while nobody is suggesting the country is colorblind where Obama's concerned, it's another hopeful sign that we can transcend the issue.
Maybe The Stranger could contact Horsey and ask him what he was thinking before slamming him. It's possible he just missed his mark; it happens.
Had I seen this cartoon on its own in the paper, I would have glossed over it and forgotten about in just that instant. It is that unremarkable. Mr. Horsey must be loving this.
I'm not familiar with Horsey, but I don't find this cartoon racist or irrelevant. Bill Cosby and Michael Jordan are not just black men, they are heroes and role models. These guys have had a huge impact on suburban white kids and their perceptions of black people over the last two decades. Keep in mind how important these figures might be to white kids who lacked a dependable father figure in their lives (like me, who yearned for a dad like Bill Cosby).
In part because of these men, young white Americans (unlike their parents or grandparents) are comfortable with the idea of black authority -- they welcome it. These guys paved the way for Obama. It's a natural progression.
In what way did Jordan "pave the way" that Abdul-Jabbar, or Willie Mays, or Jackie Robinson did not? Likewise, in what way did Bill Cosby pave the way that Nat King Cole did not? What's different about 88-98-08 from 47-57-67 or 65-75-85? I still think it's a case of "random black star" plus "random black star ten years later" equals "Obama".
Fnarf, I take your point, but the cartoon is pretty specific about its subject here: average twenty-something Americans today. Michael Jordan has more symbolic capital for them than the others you mentioned because his image was everywhere when they were growing up. Same with Cosby. They are not random; they were chosen because they had such mass, mass appeal for today's young voters.
TLjr, so call Jordan a role model, then. You get my point, yes? White kids idolized him. His posters were all over their bedroom walls. And this is significant. My parents sure didn't grow up with any black role models.
Like I said, I'm not familiar with the cartoonist, but taken on its own, the comic contains a grain of truth that I don't find particularly offensive.
@62 - Jordan paved the way because he was alive and at the peak of his career when the guy in the cartoon was a kid. Agree with all the others here, in that the point is what is relevant for a 20 something, not, what is relevant from a historical standpoint.
Plus, you are old. :)
Posted by
Julie |
February 8, 2008 10:12 AM
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Comments
horsey can suck it.
I like Horsey, but that ain't his finest.
I don't know that that is bullshit. I think the media has played a pretty decent role in increasing at least stated racial tolerance, and sports are a clear factor in the advance of civil rights. Otherwise, Jackie Robinson wouldn't have mattered.
I don't understand what Schmader's calling bullshit on...?
I'd like to see that for Hilary, but the last pane would have to go back to the Olsen twins or a starved Nicole Richie. Or maybe Monica Belluci or Amanda Knox, right Chuckles?
Obviously,this is a racist cartoon. I just am not sure why or how...
David may just need laid though.
Wow. Just..wow.
Yeah, the first slide could've been a kid watching 'I'm Gonna Get You Sucka' and the second slide could've been a poster of Snoop Dog in front of a pot leaf, and the cartoon would've made the same amount of sense.
I kind of feel offended, but I'm not sure why....
Hm. Maybe I'm a judgmental idiot.
Reading the comic as one white kid's progression--from learning that non-white people can be smart and successful and funny from Cosby, to learning that they can accomplish amazing feats from Jordan, to realizing that a non-white president would be an awesome idea--is perfectly non-offensive.
But reading it as an equation where Bill Cosby plus Michael Jordan equals Obama makes my skin crawl.
I look at it more as a "look how far we've come" rather than whatever you're calling b.s. on.
I'm with I Got Nuthin @4. Granted, it's an unremarkable cartoon that rests on an easy insight. Why exactly are we calling bullshit here?
Whoops, wrote my comment before Schmader explained @10. Nevermind.
Schmader, you missed a chance to say Horse(y)shit.
But seriously, this is why the cartoon is wrong: because it implies that the only notable thing about Obama, the only thing white voters care about and the reason for his success, is that he is a black man.
Obama has superficially at least little or nothing in common with either Cosby or Jordan, except for his color. To compare them in a visual medium, without an explanation...is to imply that a white fascination with a black man is the main - indeed only - reason for Obama's popularity.
@10, Okay I can see how one could interpet that in a couple of ways. I like the first way you described better: It makes me feel much much better.
title of comic is Progression, not Equation. there's a subtle difference.
there are no mathematic signifiers in the comic. your reading is flawed.
I was going to agree with 9, about not knowing why I'm offended even though I feel it, but then I think 14 managed to put it very well. I'll co-op 14, please.
Obama is more like Tiger Woods. He's black in the racial sense, but not really culturally. They both have touch of the kind of Asian religion that doesn't scare old white people.
Yes, thanks #14, well put.
The idea that support for Obama is the natural outcome of a (white) nation brought up on Bill Cosby and Michael Jordan is exactly what made me use the word bullshit.
This bugged me in that "and he's so articulate" kind of way. Glad you thought so too, D.S.
Also! The idea that people are only able to support Obama because they've been softened up by Bill Cosby and Michael Jordan is gross.
And the idea that Obama's widespread popularity is the result of a surfeit of affection for Cosby and Jordan is grosser.
David Horsey wouldn't know a young American if it bit him in the ass while he was at church.
I hate that guy.
That cartoon just struck me as pointing out the reliance of people on media's presentation of people. All about the superficiality of appearance, not on their substance. Like that American Apparel endorsement of Obama: Oh, he's so cool in his leather jacket.
I think the point the cartoon is making is fair. Kids that grew up with Bill Cosby and Michael Jordon in their lives won't have a huge objection to voting for Obama.
It's the progression of the kid, not of black people in the media.
If it's a choice between that guy who draws for the Seattle Times and Horsey, I'll take the guy who can draw, even if he pulls a clam like this Obama cartoon out of his pooper once in a while.
In 1988, Jesse Jackson won several caucuses and primaries and was a credible candidate for the Democratic nomination. Why isn't HE in the first panel? Especially since Lisa Bonet had left "The Cosby Show" by 1988 and it had long begun to suck.
Bill cosby is awesome.
David Horsey - a white guy who also draws cartoons.
David, I think you're trying too hard to read something into the comix that is not there. I don't see any racism. I don't see understand your math,
B.C. + M.J. = Obama. Balance that equation please.
I don't get it.
For many of us in the 1980s Cosby and Jordan and Eddie Murphy and so many other cultural touchpoints were part of what turned us against the racist ramblings of our fathers and grandfathers. They presented the view we didn't get listening to our dad's bitch about blacks moving into the neighborhood. So in that regard those guys did indeed 'soften' us or at least paved the way for white america. I see it as more of an homage to what those guys accomplished in the American psyche
The fact of the matter is that his race does matter in this election. Of course he's a brilliant guy with great ideas and an inspirational speaker to boot. But if he wasn't black we wouldn't be feeling this historic opportunity to make such a monumental leap. It doesn't have to be the only reason, but it sure as hell is one of the reasons and you're kidding yourself if you think otherwise.
Quoting the ever insightful Brothers Brothers
"Bill Cosby's a doctor
a lawyer's his wife
and as all blacks know
it's the average life."
OK, it doesn't add anything to the thread, but I always laugh a little when I think of it.
So Bill Cosby in 1988 was the first time white kids saw a black man in a positive light? There's a problem with that. For starters, it's not even the first time they saw BILL COSBY in a positive light; "I Spy" was on in NINETEEN SIXTY-FIVE. Granted, most Young Americans don't know about "I Spy", but that just raises the question of why this same cartoon doesn't feature, say, Cosby in '65, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar in '75, and Jesse Jackson in '85.
If anything, the theme of the cartoon to me is: "Black people: always back on square one".
Hmmm. I read it a slightly different way. Not as "one white kid's progression", but as, who are the African-American role models that young white kids had to look up to at different times. "For Young Americans, a progression", not, for one person, a progression.
In other words, in the 80s and 90s, the only mainstream black role models were TV stars and athletes. In the 00s, we have this amazing person that is Obama. And, isn't that awesome....
i kinda liked how @31 put it.
it's just a comic, so it choose a couple of big moments that fit with the main character's time line. we've grown up in a world where people who were black were visible, heroes, part of the community, you name it.
it's certainly not funny, nor insightful. but it did generate conversation. and did those moments lead to the moment of today, or were those moments just part of the fluid progression?
@33
Because it's about young Americans, not middle aged ones. And i think he was just picking 1988 because it helped break the strip into a balanced 3 panels of 10 year increments. 88, 98, 08.
Hit or Miss? Miss.
Yeah, but as I said, why doesn't that apply to any other arbitrarily selected twenty-year span of black icons?
DAVID - GET OFF THE PIPE, THE CARTOON TELLS THE STORY OF DECREASING RACISM, THANKS TO MODERN MEDIA AND VERY SHARP FOLKS LIKE COSBY, THE SO AWESOME TO EVERYBODY ESP. KIDS, MAGNIFICENT MICHAEL JORDAN, ETC.
==== CHANGE ===== OBAMA HAS A GOOD CHANCE
@38
Because it's a cartoon about people in their early-mid twenties, for whom these are relevant cultural icons.
Where does Soul Plane fall in the progression?
A guy I know made this point about a year ago when confronted with the "conventional wisdom" that America isn't ready for a black president. He pointed out that there are a lot of not-particularly-progressive white 20 and 30 somethings that are used to not just tolerating, but rooting for, black heroes. My skin's not crawling from this one.
Jesus Christ it's a fucking cartoon you guys are analyzing as if it were a state of the union speech. “I’m offended but I'm not sure why”, because you're a fucking pansy ass that’s always looking for something to be offended by.
bingo Nat
@43
It's an EDITORIAL cartoon -- they're supposed to be analyzed.
I think he was trying to say "Yes, We Can!"
@38: Fnarf, David Horsey got it right picking these three for my age group. These are the major black figures on TV I recall from when I was those ages.
@34, the glass is really half full huh? I think that's giving Horsey too much credit...
@47. Agreed. I was 9 in 1988 and loved the Cosby Show. They were absolutely the most high-profile, African-Americans figures in my life (being from middle-of-nowhere in the Midwest). And, Jordan was absolutely the #1 figure in sports in the 90s).
So... for those in their 20s who are supporting Obama so strongly now, those icons are appropriate.
That's definitely the product of something that's post-intelligence.
@48. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit. More likely, I just interpreted the cartoon based on my own frame of reference (since everyone here has a difference frame of reference, everyone's interpretations will be different).
My frame of reference being that I lived in a town with virtually no African-Americans (there were exactly 2 black kids in my high school), and that Cosby and Jordan really were the biggest mainstream African-American figures when I was a kid.
So, if we want to follow the same progression...the gays just need a major sports star somewhere now, and we can field a candidate for President in ten years?
at least charles hasnt offered a deconstruction where he says the young person is actually black and all the black people in the cartoon are actually white.
or that jordan and cosby are capitalist uncle toms that oppress the "young white man, who is actually an old negro" by offering him entertainment that draws his attention away from being a jive talking brother laborer.
I loathe David Horsey. Loooooathe him.
Hmm. I saw it as three cases where popularity (or admiration) transcends race. Nobody talked about Cosby as a show about black people (for good reason -- race was seldom addressed except in certain "special" episodes). Jordan was/is popular worldwide as a spectacular athlete, not a black athlete. And while nobody is suggesting the country is colorblind where Obama's concerned, it's another hopeful sign that we can transcend the issue.
Maybe The Stranger could contact Horsey and ask him what he was thinking before slamming him. It's possible he just missed his mark; it happens.
Sooo weee wereeee BRAINWASHHEEDD!!
Get out of my head fresh prince!!!
Had I seen this cartoon on its own in the paper, I would have glossed over it and forgotten about in just that instant. It is that unremarkable. Mr. Horsey must be loving this.
forgotten about it...
I'm not familiar with Horsey, but I don't find this cartoon racist or irrelevant. Bill Cosby and Michael Jordan are not just black men, they are heroes and role models. These guys have had a huge impact on suburban white kids and their perceptions of black people over the last two decades. Keep in mind how important these figures might be to white kids who lacked a dependable father figure in their lives (like me, who yearned for a dad like Bill Cosby).
In part because of these men, young white Americans (unlike their parents or grandparents) are comfortable with the idea of black authority -- they welcome it. These guys paved the way for Obama. It's a natural progression.
What's heroic about Jordan?
He was a good ballplayer. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not exactly Nobel material.
In what way did Jordan "pave the way" that Abdul-Jabbar, or Willie Mays, or Jackie Robinson did not? Likewise, in what way did Bill Cosby pave the way that Nat King Cole did not? What's different about 88-98-08 from 47-57-67 or 65-75-85? I still think it's a case of "random black star" plus "random black star ten years later" equals "Obama".
Old Fnarf is oooooooold.
Fnarf, I take your point, but the cartoon is pretty specific about its subject here: average twenty-something Americans today. Michael Jordan has more symbolic capital for them than the others you mentioned because his image was everywhere when they were growing up. Same with Cosby. They are not random; they were chosen because they had such mass, mass appeal for today's young voters.
TLjr, so call Jordan a role model, then. You get my point, yes? White kids idolized him. His posters were all over their bedroom walls. And this is significant. My parents sure didn't grow up with any black role models.
Like I said, I'm not familiar with the cartoonist, but taken on its own, the comic contains a grain of truth that I don't find particularly offensive.
@62 - Jordan paved the way because he was alive and at the peak of his career when the guy in the cartoon was a kid. Agree with all the others here, in that the point is what is relevant for a 20 something, not, what is relevant from a historical standpoint.
Plus, you are old. :)
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