Comments on Obesity a Lifestyle Choice?

Thanks for making my Saturday morning, Dan. Where were these "so many more factors" 20, let alone 50, years ago?

Calorie dismissal is the intelligent design of nutrition.

I travel on flights to Europe (9+ hours) frequently. And usually not in the nice seats up front. These lifestyle-choosers routinely slop over into your space. On one recent flight it was more comfortable to just walk around the plane for the duration.

Gee, Dan, maybe you should look beyond the short term? Sure, you stop eating fast food, get more exercise, and eat more vegetables. And you lose some weight. And your body adjusts and gains it back and there you are - still not eating fast food, still getting exercise, still eating vegetables, and fat. Then what? Eat still less, exercise still more? Or realize it's all a fucking scam?

The fat apologists remind me of the weed apologists on some blogs (ahem...).

Just like the fatties scream bloody murder at anyone suggesting they should consider eating less, some weedies go up in a puff of smoke when someone dares to suggest they should inhale less -- or not at all. But the weedies are better at masking their addictive fear behind pick-and-choose studies (and, of course, the anti-weed folks pick and choose studies, as well).

Let's face it -- food, weed, booze -- whatever your addiction, you're going to respond with force if someone threatens to encroach upon your ability to get that fix.

The people in India have human genes too (at last look) and I rarely if ever see obese brown people in India. If I had to guess I would say those skinny Indians don't go to the drive-thru and eat crap-food, don't eat meat like it's the only thing to eat, don't get in a car and drive 2 blocks down the street. The difference is they eat less than 65% of Americans and hence are not over weight and/or obese, imagine that!

Even acknowledging that other factors at work, or that our society may conspire to tempt you to consume, it really does take an extraordinary level of delusion to say that the average American's increased daily caloric intake is not connected to the average American's increased bodyfat levels.

I mean, ferfuckssake.

Every choice adds up to them being fat, so yes. They are choosing obesity.

BUT IT'S GENETIC!!

No. It's not (rarely, OK)

If some people would write down what they eat in a week (without suddenly changing their diet as to not hurt their own feelings), they would find themselves WAYYY out of recommended daily allowances. A lot of food is like that.

I read some of the comments of the overweight who felt that avoiding fast food, etc. doesn't help them. While I may agree that there are some who, perhaps because of a glandular disorder can't lose weight, I nevertheless have to question why it's the Americans followed by the Saudis who are the most obese in world. If it's all glandular, then why hasn't research been done into it? I believe that for the majority of people, it has nothing to do with glands and they know it. I can't speak for Saudis, but anytime I eat at a non-fast food restaurant, the portions are large enough for two people! There is a cultural syndrome in the U.S. of "bang for the buck", where if you don't get a ton of food, drink, napkins, whatever for the price you're charged, then you're somehow getting ripped off! Anything that isn't finished is then put into a bag for you to eat later that night. As a child I used to beg to be allowed to leave the table, but couldn't because I hadn't eaten everything on my plate. And what plates I had as a kid! There was always more food than any one child should be expected to eat and it was made worse by telling me how envious the children of Africa would be to see what I was eating! Let's face it people, we are a FAT nation, your glands be damned!

Jubilation @4, who are these weed apologists of whom you speak? The hardcore potheads I know are too stoned to post to blogs. And the bloggers I read who support reforming pot laws, like me, make no pretense that pot is benign. Or is your analogy crap because you're confusing the issue of the right to smoke pot (and the right to eat oneself into obesity) with the issue of bad health?

While I may agree that there are some who, perhaps because of a glandular disorder can't lose weight, I nevertheless have to question why it's the Americans followed by the Saudis who are the most obese in world.

Or how Americans got where they are in such a short time. When obesity rises rapidly over a few decades, it's hard to blame it on genetic conditions.

While it is logically true that fewer calories + more exercise = weight loss, obesity is not a simple calorie/exercise equation. Obesity is intimately tied to a variety of other factors:

* Mental health (depression, anxiety, stress, etc.)--this is a MAJOR factor that is quickly dismissed by most critics of the obese (and often overlooked by fat advocates as well)

* Economics (healthier food is more expensive, fast food is cheap--the lower the income, the more likely you are to be overweight or obese)

* Accessibility (a huge percentage of urban people in minority neighborhoods do not live within close distance of grocery stores or access to fresh produce, they rely instead of convenience markets, etc.)

* Transportation (many American cities and suburbs have been designed so that food is accessible mainly by motor vehicle, cf. European cities where most people live within walking distance of a small market with fresh produce, etc.) -- how far is your nearest market with fresh produce in Seattle? Mine is 30 blocks.

* Pedestrian/bicycle friendliness: simple ways to increase exercise are not undertaken by cities, e.g. sidewalks are widely needed in Seattle where statistically people are most overweight, bike lanes are needed to facilitate biking as transportation, etc.

* Health Care (even for the minority of Americans who do have health insurance, weight loss treatment of any type--including talking to nutritionists, etc., so that one can become educated on a proper diet--is not usually covered, cf. individual plans from Regence and Premera here in Washington).

* The Farm Bill (food manufacturers are able to produce high-calorie/low-quality/low-price foods in part because the government subsidizes directly or indirectly the inclusion of things like corn syrup and salt at the expense of products with real flavor)

* Mass economy: Most grocery store fruits and vegetables don't taste as good in 2007 as they did in 1900 because produce has been bred to travel well and look good, not taste good, and because things are picked before they are ripe. Compare any garden-grown tomato this summer to a conventional grocery store one, or tree-ripened peaches or apples that you pick yourself to grocery store ones, etc. This is true even of potatoes, lettuce, and broccoli. As a result, of modern mass economy, healthy foods like produce literally don't taste as good as high-calorie cheap fast and processed foods. This tends to make especially people with less education opt for things that taste better.

* Endomorphy: the fact is that some people put on weight way more easily and loose it with much more difficulty. Not everyone is an ectomorph. Note also that the government considers people like Tom Cruise to be obese, since the definition of obesity ignores body type and muscle mass, etc.

* Education: schools tend not teach nutrition or life-long sports (i.e. not baseball or football, things you can't do for the next 30 years after high school).

* Upbringing: it is very, very difficult to argue that an obese child is responsible for his or her obesity--every child who reaches 18 who has already been obese for several years has been raised in a family environment without an understanding of nutrition and exercise, and that is squarely the parents' fault. College cafeterias can be faulted in part, too, if we rationally assume 18-year-olds don't have the nutritional education to regulate their eating themselves.

Yes, obese people share a huge responsibility for their obesity, but to ignore all these other factors is just as myopic. Obesity can be fought only by paying attention to individuals and their individual concerns AND paying attention to national policies that undermine health lifestyles.

I believe Dominic's response proves Jubilation's point. End scene.

Corn. High fructose corn syrup. Try avoiding it.

Agribusiness, agricultural subsidies, farm bills...

Read "The Omnivore's Dilemma" by Michael Pollan. Important stuff.

We get it Dan, you hate fat people. It's no longer cool to hate gay people, Jewish people, black people, etc, fortunately for Dan there are some despised groups you're still allowed to mock.

Whether or not fat people are responsible for their obesity isn't even the point. At the end of the day they're just people with some issues, like most of us.

Seriously, what is your aim with these posts? "Hey fatties put down the food and lose weight". Wow, thanks Dan, for those words of wisdom. You're not helping anyone.

Turn off the hate and focus your energy on something positive. Or fuck off.

@4 & @12 - No, that's a bad comparison. There is overwhelming medical evidence showing that obesity leads to death at earlier ages, health issues during life, a burden on the healthcare system, etc. There is no medical evidence that says smoking weed is bad for you in the long-term or short-term. Perhaps you consider it a vice, but it doesn't hurt the user or the society, so I fail to see why you would even bring that into this discussion.

I work in a movie theatre. How much shit that I sell has corn in it? of 15 varieties of candy, 12. Popcorn (duh), soda (high fructose corn syrup)... when you subsidize corn, industrial food production puts corn in everything.

Subsidies are the only plausible reason that highly processed food can be cheaper than unprocessed vegetables.

Obesity rate among the general US population (1999): 18%
among vegetarians: 6%
among vegans: 2%
avg. weight of vegans compared to non-vegetarians: 10-20 lbs. less.
(from Food Revolution, John Robbins)

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2006/04/vegetarian_weight_loss.html

And if you don't rely (as many lazy vegans do) on potato chips and fries, the numbers fall even farther. Cook your own meals, relying primarily on unprocessed vegetables, whole grain, and fresh fruit, and obesity is a thing of the past. So is type 2 diabetes, much heart disease, many kinds of cancer, and a whole slew of unnecessary, exploitative pharmaceuticals.

Kill farm subsidies. They only benefit corporate mega-agriculture anyway, and subsidized food is disproportionately processed into unhealthy, obesity-causing food.

Emphasize local farmers' markets: reduce oil consumption, eat significantly fewer cancer-causing pesticides if any at all, and support small farmers against encroaching sprawl and corporate agriculture.

There is a way to a healthier America! Go vegetarian! Go vegan!

@11 There's no doubt that public policy is an influence, and a strong one at that, but personal responsibility still plays the largest role. Yeah, a burger is fast and going to the drive through means no preparation. Same thing with an apple. It can certainly be a pain in the ass to find healthy food, but lemme tell you, finding healthy and kosher food is harder, and I manage (and I'm in the 10% tax bracket and pay self employment taxes, so it's not like food isn't a strain on the budget). Exercise? No one's saying join a gym. Walking is free and damned good for you. Check out a book from the library and learn to stretch.

I mean, sure, it may be hard, but we're talking about your life, your health, and your childrens' lives.

Oh yeah. And buy a fuckin' bike. Think of the money you'll save on gasoline, gastrointestinal bypass, and insulin injections.

@14 - So you don't consider Dan's desire to see fewer people suffer from obesity a positive?

"Whether or not fat people are responsible for their obesity isn't even the point."

No, that's EXACTLY the point. Obesity impacts society in more ways than just us not wanting to look at fatties. It increases medical costs for everyone, it reduces productivity, and it encourages food producers to keep churning out shitty food because people like you will keep buying it, bringing even more people into the obesity club. Someone else being Black, gay, or Jewish doesn't impact me--you being fat and not doing anything about it does.

@12 -- Thanks, and I agree with you. However, I want to be very clear and give Mr. Holden the courtesy of a reply:

My Dear Holden,

You may not believe it, but I do try to choose my words with some care. That said, I did not frame my argument, in this case, as clearly as I may have.

You'll note, however, that I framed my argument within the context of REDUCTION of intake, not RESTRICTION. The bloggers of whom I speak are those who claim -- and back their claims with studies -- that marijuana smoke is not/less/more harmful than that of cigarettes. I refer to posters here and elsewhere, both official bloggers and commenters.

It was meant to be an apples to apples comparison of QUANTITY of intake regarding food and pot smoke.

And I also tried to make the point that both sides have studies out the butt to prove their case.

Your reaction, while predictable (see my original post), was personally disappointing to me because your columns have been lucid and insightful with regard to marijuana law reform, and I am an enthusiastic supporter of eliminating the criminal charges for possession of weed.

But I'm sorry, I think the smoke is harmful -- and I still partake, because I'm grown up enough to accept that my use may hurt me...unlike the snarling, 423-pound people eaters ordering their third sack of Dick's at midnight, who insist that their outsize intake of food has no impact on the fact they shop for clothes in the tent department at REI.

Good day to you, sir.

Well, there's this article in the NYTimes online, wherein many of the assumptions of how wonderful exercise is are queried.
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/health/healthguide/esn-exercise-ess.html
It is possible to exercise enough to lose weight, but it isn't as easy as it sounds-otherwise, most of the overweight folks out there being told how bad they are for being fat would be loosing weight right, left and center.

I'd just like to point out that Dan Savage, while gay, is still a rich white male.

And he supported the Iraq war.

Ok, to sustain your weight your body needs 12 calories per day per pound. Meaning if you weigh 150 lbs you can consume 1800 calories in a day and not gain any more weight even if you aren't exercising. But if 392 pound sister never gains another pound she's still eating 4704 calories (the equivalent of 6.5 double quarter pounders with cheese) a day just to sustain that weight. So put down the fucking mountain dew and drink a diet pepsi honey, it'll change your life.

There sure are a lot of defeated fatties on the slog today. I'm with Dan on this. A few years ago when I hit "clinically obese" on the BMI scale, I started going to the gym 4 times a week and doing an hour of cardio followed by a low impact weight routine. In 5 months, I dropped 40lbs without any change to my diet what so ever.

By far, the hardest part was getting to the gym more days than not. But if you decide it is a priority over other things, then you can make it happen.

BTW, this morning I had eggs, bacon, juice and coffee and I haven't got the slightest idea how many calories that is. See you at the gym!

Its not all genetics. I'm indian and brown fat people do exist in India. The fact is that all the food there isn't as refined as it is here. Plus, they don't eat big macs or whoppers over there. They eat a lot more of the healthy flours. However, they're are other problems like diabetes. Being Indian and living in the western world means you will get diabetes if you eat a lot of indian food. Why the ingredients just get too refined and processed. I found this out the hard way. So, I'm now learning to re-eat or re-cook. Which means low glycemic load. Unfortunately, from all the research i'm doing I'm learning that the American Diabetes Association is just not tough enough on what the diet should be for diabetics. According to the ADA you can eat rice and potatoes, and the diet is still based on a lot of carbs. This is not heathy. You have to go beyond that. So, less carbs and less fat. Especially for people with Kidney issues, that can't handle high fat. Plus, this diet doesn't work for everyone. Even simple steps, as suggested above, laying off the fast food, soda, sugar, and more vegetables can make a big difference. I've done just that and lost 20lbs. Granted I have to put more exercise in my routine or i'm gonna just stay at my current weight, but 20lbs is a lot from just getting out bad foods. Though the one thing I realized recently is that the American economy runs on keeping people fat. Any grocery store even the "so called" healthy ones do not have a lot of healthy pre-cooked, pre-packaged choices besides the veggies or fruit. Even a cornmeal pizza has wheat or all purpose flour. Everything in the whole foods pre-cooked section has sugar in dishes that don't need it. Its hard to get a quick healthy bite. So if you want to loose weight you have to plan ahead, you can't rely on others, and this won't change until the nation wakes up and decides they're not going to eat all these empty calories and carbs.

Its not all genetics. I'm indian and brown fat people do exist in India. The fact is that all the food there isn't as refined as it is here. Plus, they don't eat big macs or whoppers over there. They eat a lot more of the healthy flours. However, they're are other problems like diabetes. Being Indian and living in the western world means you will get diabetes if you eat a lot of indian food. Why the ingredients just get too refined and processed. I found this out the hard way. So, I'm now learning to re-eat or re-cook. Which means low glycemic load. Unfortunately, from all the research i'm doing I'm learning that the American Diabetes Association is just not tough enough on what the diet should be for diabetics. According to the ADA you can eat rice and potatoes, and the diet is still based on a lot of carbs. This is not heathy. You have to go beyond that. So, less carbs and less fat. Especially for people with Kidney issues, that can't handle high fat. Plus, this diet doesn't work for everyone. Even simple steps, as suggested above, laying off the fast food, soda, sugar, and more vegetables can make a big difference. I've done just that and lost 20lbs. Granted I have to put more exercise in my routine or i'm gonna just stay at my current weight, but 20lbs is a lot from just getting out bad foods. Though the one thing I realized recently is that the American economy runs on keeping people fat. Any grocery store even the "so called" healthy ones do not have a lot of healthy pre-cooked, pre-packaged choices besides the veggies or fruit. Even a cornmeal pizza has wheat or all purpose flour. Everything in the whole foods pre-cooked section has sugar in dishes that don't need it. Its hard to get a quick healthy bite. So if you want to loose weight you have to plan ahead, you can't rely on others, and this won't change until the nation wakes up and decides they're not going to eat all these empty calories and carbs.

I don't hate fat people. I hate being asked to pretend that diet and exercise have nothing to do with weight. And please note that I've never said that everyone has to be a skinny, little, size-0 thing. But 400 pounds? If you're heavy and happy and don't want to change, great, fine. Really--and you can be sexy and heavy. Really. But if your happiness is contingent on the everyone else pretending that weight isn't impacted by diet or your exercise habits, or that we're all powerless to do anything about weight, well, then you're going to be miserable.

Alright, already. Enough beating up on the porkers. Let's move on to the people that REALLY ruin my day - ugly people. Can't we pass a law that they have to wear a bag over their head or something?

@11 - those factors may indeed play a part in rising obesity, but most of them are also tied to the more basic issue of encouraging overconsumption and a sedentary lifestyle. Which comes back to Dan's point.

2 months ago I completely removed High Fructose Corn Syrup from my diet, and I've slowly (very slowly) lost just over 10 pounds. No change in diet or exercise otherwise, just a noticeable change in the amount of food that I have to eat before I feel full.

@29: True, but people in low socioeconomic groups, who are the most impacted by these policy issues and rising obesity, are the same people who lack the resources to address them in their lives, let alone have access to, understand, and implement Dan's or anyone else's advice. This is why public policy is critically important.

In addition, mental health issues have very little to do with Dan's point. Obesity and mental are intimately tied together. Someone who weighs 400 pounds has per se an untreated mental health issue, just as an adult who weighs 70 pounds does. As Dan has said, someone who is fat and happy has no problem--but most people who are fat have an underlying untreated mental health problem (stress, untreated depression, anxiety disorder, addiction disorder, etc.). Obese people need to address, and get help to address, their underlying mental health problems, if applicable. Condemning fat people as having low motivation or will power is as productive as telling someone who is suicidal that they may as well jump when there is a mental health issue in question.

19 - I've seen no evidence that Dan has any real concern for fat people or is interested in helping them, they're simply an easy and acceptable target for him to mock.

The "science" of nutrition and obesity is much less cut and dry than many of you suggest.

I would suggest you read the works of Gary Taubes, a respected science writer who has done a lot of research on the topic. Americans are eating less meat and fat than ever before and yet obesity continues to increase.

Taubes makes a case that it's the steady increase in refined carbohydrates (in the form of white flour, corn syrup, etc) that's the problem. Not just the calories from these carbohydrates, but the impact on the body through the resulting rise in insulin, causing the body to store rather than burn fat.

@29 - I agree that it's more difficult for people to find healthier choices in low-income areas, but come on. There's no place in the country that you can't find vegetables at the grocery store. The problem is that people only want to eat pre-prepared meals (I'm no exception). If someone is truly motivated to lose weight, they'll have to eat right, exercise, and be ready to spend some extra time preparing their own meals.

Also, you're making a big point about mental health issues. What percentage of the obese are you suggesting suffer from mental health problems? I would think that many of them would be more offended by that than by any of Dan's posts.

I think the main issue here is taking responsibility -- for your mental health as well as your physical health. Yes, there are many other factors involved (thanks, S.M.), but that doesn't mean people don't have the power to change their lives.

Yes, for some it is more difficult than for others. But individuals have more power than they think they do. So if you're struggling, don't give up! Because if you consistently resort to casting blame, you will never change.

Ugh. This again.


Look. Everyone that's fat and wants to lose weight knows that eating right and exercise are a good idea. Everyone that's fat and doesn't give a fuck, well, doesn't give a fuck. I don't remember any Slog posts where a fat person asserted that diet and exercise are not conducive to weight loss, necessitating commenters to rush in and point out their error. There are only posts asserting that all fat people are lazy asses who eat shit all the time. It's not true, but what the fuck do I know? If it makes you feel all awesome about yourself to assume that you live good and I live bad, fucking enjoy yourself.

"Mental health problems" covers a lot of ground. Do a lot of fat people have an unhealthy relationship with food? Absolutely. A lot of people in this country do, from the fat guy to the bulimic woman and all the normal-weight people who spend hours every day obsessing about food.

Does the constant tone of moral indignation and outrage help fat people? Not at all. It reminds me a bit of the bullies that used to screw with the shy and weird kids in junior high, when you called them on it they would always say "I'm just trying to *help* them not be shy, to not take themselves so seriously." Uh-huh.

I lost 200 pounds by becoming abstinent from sugar, ALL refined flour in any form, caffeine, and alcohol (alcohol & caffeine fuck with some people). These foods are all highly addictive for people like me and as soon as I stopped eating them my cycle of cravings, binging, and depression largely lifted. I learned to delight in vegetables, fruits, nuts, berries, organic/grassfed meats, and whole grains (although I stay away from wheat, period).

I stopped eating out all the time, even at non-fast food restaurants. I learned how to cook for myself from scratch, relying heavily on farmers markets for meat, produce, grain, and cheese. I also began to exercise as my body would allow. I've kept off MOST of the weight for over 4 years by plugging into a totally different food paradigm (eschewing Archer Daniel Midlands and Tyson in favor of the farmers market or the co-op) and doing personal growth surrounding addiction.

Fat people are what we get, though, when agribusiness makes more money from people being fat and sick then healthy and slim, when we are consumers first and citizens second. Certain foods, like sugared soda, are almost on par with cigarettes in how addictive& detrimental they are to health and yet go totally unregulated. Also, for the first time in the history of the world more people live in cities then on farms, utterly depending on agribusiness to feed them. Don't even get me started about cars and their relationship to sprawling waistlines. Only a personal transformation, coupled with getting political about food, saved me from staying 400plus pounds and miserable.

There's a big difference between someone who's a few pounds overweight despite eating healthy food and exercising regularly and the woman in this article who weighs almost 400 pounds. If she visits the drive-thru, I am assuming she has a car and can therefore go to a farmers market or even a regular supermarket even if she lives in a neighborhood with nothing but crappy convenience stores. And I'm not buying her "As we get older..." crap. This woman is 28 years old. That hardly puts her into the geriatric set. This is about taking personal responsibility for one's own health. She sounds like she's just making excuses.

@37,

Thanks, fatguy.

I'd like to add that negative reinforcement only makes the problem get worse, a number of studies have proven this. The more you vilify fatties, the more they eat, the fatter they get. So all you haters are only helping to create the thing that you revile.

Hey fatguy, to what or to whom do you attribute your "fat" gay status? Maybe you're a thin guy playing devil's advocate which is cool. But if you ARE indeed "fat" as society terms it, is it because you eat carrot sticks and lettuce leafs all day? I mean rabbits do that and they get fat.

There is a revolution going on right now regarding the rejection of the low-fat / low-cholesterol / high-fiber diet recommended by the AMA, AHS, and ACS. It 10 years, the obesity rates in the US will be half what they are today.

Read "Good Calories, bad Calories" by Gary Taubes. The 4ise in obesity coincided with the adoption of the low-fat / low-chol / high-fiber (and by extension, high-carb) diet. IT'S NOT COINCIDENCE.

I started tryong to lose weight in Dec 06, 345lb. Count cals every day. 3500cal/d to 3000cal. No effect. Added 3 45min workouts/wk. No effect. 3000cal/d to 2500cal/d. No effect. Read Taubes early last mo, switched to a low-carb (but not crazy low- ~30%) 2500 cal/d, and have lost 15lb in the last month.

Read the science.

"We get it Dan, you hate fat people. It's no longer cool to hate gay people, Jewish people, black people, etc" -fatguy

Saying that Dan hates fat people is really absurd. Furthermore comparing fat people to gays, blacks, and jews is completely uncalled for.
Were fat people put in gas chambers?
Did fat people suffer slavery and segregation?
Have fat people been denied their equal rights for the past mellenium?
No.

Christ if you wanna be fat fine. But how dare you compare yourself to black, jews, or gays.

And BTW, it's not about hating anyone. It's about telling people to be responsible for their health. Dan has said repeatedly that gay people need to practice safe sex. Is that because he hates gay people? No. It's because he doesn't want people dying from reckless behavior.

So put down the big mac, get off the computer, and go walk around the block. And stop comparing yourself to actually oppressed people.

First of all, if you think fat people aren't regularly discriminated against you're an idiot. Does it rise to the level historically of the discrimination against Jews, blacks, gays? Of course not.

I just don't believe Dan's intent is to help people and I certainly don't believe any fat person is going to read what Dan writes and change their behavior. If that's really his goal then I suggest his change his approach.

There are all sorts of unhealthy behaviors like smoking and drinking too much (a habit regularly advocated in the Stranger) and you never see them addressed with the same level of vitriol and moral outrage that you do obesity. There's clearly a level of disgust and hatred that goes far beyond trying to help people change their unhealthy habits.

Telling fat people that they have a choice is like telling gay people that they have a choice.

"No, but fatties are DIFFERENT, then really DO want to be freaks, or else they would stop stuffing their faces!"

Right. And I understand that you will not be convinced otherwise.

Be it "glands", genetics, definable mental health problems, or simply an inability to stop eating. . .fatties are, like fags, wired in a way that isn't socially acceptable.

Dan, what are you trying to accomplish? We already feel bad about ourselves.

Even the hormonally-challenged vegan gym rats among us who see how fucking unfair it is. I don't waste a lot of time worrying about how people see me, but any time is too much.

And for the record, I'm queer. . . the comparison is, uh. . . very personal? . . . to me.

I didn't see Mr. Savage h8n on fat people, I saw him pointing out people who don't take responsibility for their behavior.

Rampant obesity, traffic congestion, work stress, CO2 emissions. If only there was a solution!

Oh wait, I forgot. BICYCLES.

A couple of years ago, when I started riding 100 miles per week (mostly commuting), I lost 40lbs over ~6 months. I've kept it off, and it has changed my life.

392 pounds at 28 years old! Good gawd!!

Do a lot of fat people have an unhealthy relationship with food? Absolutely. A lot of people in this country do, from the fat guy to the bulimic woman and all the normal-weight people who spend hours every day obsessing about food.

Um, am I the only one who doesn't have a "relationship" with food? WTF? When my stomach growls, I eat. I never think about food otherwise.

"Spend hours every day obsessing about food"? Don't these people have ANYTHING else to do or think about? How does one even have a life if so many thoughts are consumed (no pun intended) by a fucking twinkie?

I don't question Dan's compassion. He's clearly a compassionate guy. What I don't like the assumption that all fat people have to do is to exercise more and eat less and they will lose weight.

What I was trying to say earlier (posting from my cell phone at my daughter's basketball game) is that nutrition science seems to say WHAT we eat is more of a factor in obesity than HOW much we eat.

I KNOW THIS IS COUNTERINTUITIVE. Of course it seems to make sense that if you are holding at, say, 3500kcals/d, that you will lose 2lb a week if you go to 2500kcal/d (since 1lb fat= 3500kcals). But science- honest to god, no lie- seems to say that this is NOT the case, and that the body responds to a low cal / high carb diet by adjusting the metabolism and hoarding fat. The research also says that exercise (on the order of 30-60min x 3-4x/wk) doesn't seem to help because it increases appetite.

This is important because most fat people DO NOT WANT TO BE FAT, AND CONTINUOUSLY TRY TO LOSE WEIGHT. If the newest research is true, our failure to lose weight is precisely because we've mistakenly listened to the "eat less, exercise more" advice instead of changing what we eat.

So I guess I'm questioning two of Dan's assumptions: (1) that most fat people aren't trying- hard- to lose that fat, and (2) that there is a simple and well understood mechanism to lose weight.

By the way- 15lb of the way to my 100lb goal. I *will* be at 245lb by Christmas.

For fucks sake, you made your mother fucking point 2 god damn months ago with your "Eat less move more you god damn fat asses which I can say because I was once fat" posts to SLOG.

No one is saying your wrong, and if they are, they are naive. Repeating your statements, no matter how correct, is FUCKING CRUEL to the people who know what they need to do, not to mention narcissistic and self-absorbed. Repeated admonition is not wanted, needed, or effective. And since when was it ok to blame individuals for NATIONAL trends? HIV infections are going up, does that mean its the fault of every and all fag?

Is being gay a choice? Doesn't matter. Are there "treatments"? Doesn't matter. Is it healthy? Doesn't matter, because ultimately is OUR LIVES and it isn't anyones fucking place to judge NO MATTER HOW WORRIED YOU ARE ABOUT PAYING A LITTLE MORE FOR HEALTH INSURANCE.

If fat asses don't know when to stop putting things into our mouthes, then you sure as hell don't know when to stop spewing things out of yours. You were right, eating less, moving more can work. WE GOT IT THE FIRST TIME!

Big Sven -

Congratulations on the 15 pounds, can you tell us more about what you're eating and not eating to lose the weight?

Actually, excersizing and eating less IS the simple and understood mechanism for losing weight. If you continuously burn more calories than you consume, you will lose weight. Period.

But what people don't understand is that different bodies have different responses to a change in diet and excersize lifestyle. Irritability, physical pain, tiredness, dizziness, and of course, constant fucking hunger. Bodies don't want to change. Bodies don't want to lose weight, and they will get revenge on you for trying to make them do so. Losing weight can mean months of absolute torture. And if you're someone who has other medical concerns that are exacerbated by increased excersize and decreased calories (something like anemia or arthritis), you might very well put yourself in the hospital. (And yes, a doctor should help you through weight loss if you're in that situation, but have we forgotten the shitty state of healthcare in the US?)

What those of us who have always been skinny can never truly understand (unless we actually make an effort) is what kind of strength of will it takes to lose a massive amount of weight. This is true regardless of how possible weightless ultimately is.

And you must never, ever forget that there is a big difference between looking at a fat person and judging them to be unhealthy, or even unhealthy and unattractive, and looking at a fat person and judging them to be lazy, slovenly, stupid (yes, we make that assumption) and a million other character flaws besides. As a society, we do this, *especially* with women. And that's entirely unfair, again, no matter how possible weight loss ultimately is. The fact that "fat" has become regarded as some sort of "civil rights" issue is misguided, to be sure, but still...I'm fucking relieved as hell to be living in this society as a skinny person, and it's not just because I can get a date or climb a staircase easily, I can tell you that.

yibba @49 - Way to accidentally prove a point. "When my stomach growls, I eat. I never think about food otherwise." That's just what fat people are constantly accused of. But the fact is that if you're fat, you're constantly thinking "am I allowed to eat that?". The irony of being told to put down the twinkie by someone who eats whatever the fuck they want, whenever the fuck they want is - wait for it - delicious. Whatever. I don't know why I give a fuck about these posts, I should just get over it. But a big thanks to Big Sven for the encouraging discussion. I think you've inspired me to try the low carb thing again. I did it for a few months a while ago and it started to work, but I couldn't keep it up. I don't have a sweet tooth at all, but about a week after I gave up bread I started eyeballing the cookies. It was very weird.

Big Sven @50-51, congratulations on your weight loss. Best wishes for continued success.

I don't doubt what you are saying about most fat people wanting to lose weight. As a skinny person (and, in fact, severely underweight when I was younger) I will have to take your word for it. And as for fat people who don't care about what other people think, good for them. But the woman in this article appeared to be just making excuses and didn't seem to be willing to make any changes in her life, which reinforces the negative stereotype about fat people just simply lacking will power.

I may not be fat but there are things about my appearance that I would like to change. Some I have control over (weight, hair style, choice of clothes), some I don't (height, age). I do my best with the former and don't worry about the latter. It sounds like you are also doing some positive things as well. Again, good luck.

D'oh! "also doing some positive things as well" is redundant. Sorry about my grammar error.

Bob@53:

Thanks. Always check with your doctor before starting any diet, but I...

(1) Entirely gave up rice and potatoes, except for the very occasional California roll to go w/ my sashimi.
(2) Eliminated corn syrup and sugar as much as possible and high fructose corn syrup entirely. Only snacks I eat are nutrisweet jello, nuts, naturally flavored yogurt or very dark (85%) chocolate.
(3) Minimize pasta (hard) and bread (very hard).
(4) Eat low glycemic over high glycemic carbs and mix with protein and fats.
(5) Bought the South Beach Diet books and cook most dinners from their Phase 2 or later (not the ketosis stuff.)
(6) Switched from cereals to eggs & sausage for weekend breakfasts- but in moderation! 600kcal brunch today kept me full until 4:00pm.

The contentious part of my new diet is that it not particularly low-fat- this is also the contentious part of Taubes' work and if you're curious I urge you to read "Good Calories, Bad Calories."

I still workout 3x per week (because I feel better when I work out) and I hold myself to ~2500kcals/d- partially because if this works I want to be able to show friends and family that it really was the carbs that were the problem.

The hard part will be keeping the weight off- I chose this path because my insurance doesn't cover bariatric surgery and after that the Atkins/Paleolithic/South Beach diets have the best long term success rates.

Big Sven, we're on the same diet. Congrats on your success. Eggs rock.

Dan-

Sweet! But aren't you... skinny?

Yes, but I have to watch and think about every piece of food that I put into my mouth. Always have. I am not effortlessly skinny, which most folks in the FA movement assume. I know diet and exercise can work... because they work for me. The reason most diets don't work is that people think they can go off them. You can't. It's about lifestyle change and habit change and, yes, finding new comfort foods and activities that can replicate the kind of emotional satisfaction that food, or certain foods, once provided.

Bacon and eggs for breakfast, not a box of cereal. Wow. It works.

Congrats on your successful lifestyle change, Dan. And I hope you stick with it Sven. Check out Zak @38, that guy is a badass! I will continue to try and hopefully one day I'll be a success story. I do hope you understand, though, that these posts featuring cartoonishly defiant, defeated, victim-minded fat people just contribute to the culture's perception that we're all just pieces of shit. You may not feel that way, but trust me, plenty of people do. I would hope you would have as much compassion for those who fail and continue to try as you do for those who try and succeed.

I am not effortlessly skinny, which most folks in the FA movement assume.

Actually, few of us assume that since, as others have said, you've made all the same points a thousand fucking times now.

It's about lifestyle change and habit change and, yes, finding new comfort foods and activities that can replicate the kind of emotional satisfaction that food, or certain foods, once provided.

That sounds a whole lot like recovery from Binge Eating Disorder, not a "lifestyle change" for a fat person with typical eating habits. If you used to overeat to find emotional satisfaction, and you've overcome that, that's terrific -- I mean that sincerely. Eating disorders are miserable. But if that's the case, your relationship with food was not typical of most fat people. That's what you really, really don't seem to get. I mean, the tiniest bit of research would clear that up, but hey -- why confuse yourself or your readers with facts?

When it comes to fat and nutrition as those things apply to human beings OTHER than you? You're plain ignorant, and you're a complete asshole about it. And I never cease to be baffled by how proud you are of both those facts.

@ Kate Harding -

Maybe I'm ignorant, because I used to be fat, got a nutritionist and trainer, and am now in the best shape of my life. But would you humour me and give a rundown - caloric count would be sufficient - of how much you "typically" eat/drink in a given day?

I don't argue that fat people are typical in their eating habits; they are by definition, since most Americans are overweight. But to confuse typical with healthy is wrong, and I suspect that overweight individuals who maintained a lower-calorie diet, even without the exercise, would lose that extra weight.

Fuck all those fat pigs. I am thin, because I watch what I eat and exercise. If you chose to stuff yourself all day and sit around gaining weight, you can fuck off. It's nobody's fault but your own.

Hey Dan, if you check back in on this thread, why don't you just copy Thin's comment @65. Then the next time you are going to link to a "Fatties are self-deluded idiots" story, you can just paste that in instead. It will save us 64 comments and get right to the bottom line. I mean really, he pretty much sums up your point, no?

If you tie obesity to first-world economic status, how do you explain the likes of Japan or Slovenia?

No, it's just an American thing, methinks.

I'm starting to get sick of the excuses... oh wait, I ALREADY AM sick of all the excuses fat people use to defend their fatness.

You're lazy, and your body reflects this. End discussion.

Hey Gomez, if fatness is caused by laziness why are the rates of obesity significantly higher among blue-collar workers than white-collar ones? Go watch some people that do hard physical labor for a living and you'll see tons of fat guys.

PS - Gomez get a life. A girlfriend, a boyfriend, a puppy. Do something besides sitting on your ass and spouting off online 24/7. At least go gain some life experience before you lecture us all on things you know nothing about (and I haven't seen a subject yet that you won't ramble on about).

I want to thank you, Dan, and all your valiant commenters, for being so brave and honest and defending the dominant paradigm with such vigor. It's important to make sure we fat freaks know that a) we're really repulsive and totally unhealthy, b) it's all our own fault, all of it, and c) anyone who questions received wisdom is a delusional liar. If we were just hearing it from every media outlet, from "concerned" family members, and from random evangelists on the street, the vital message might not get through. Dan, your own particular message (do as you like in the bedroom; do as you're told in the dining room) is so... normative. Kudos.

Anyway - thanks again, all of you, for standing up for the status quo. It's courage like yours that makes this country what it is.

Arnold Ziffel wept.

I was a fat person when I was in my early 20's. I know it was because I was painfully shy and as a fat person I could play the goof ball and everyone would think I was hilarious.
At age 22 I decided that I was tired of being that way and lost 50 pounds in a year. I did it by cutting out red meat, full fat milk, alcohol, and sweets. I started riding my bike and going to my college gym every day. It took me a while to lose it but I have kept it off for 30 years.
Everyone in my family but me is over weight, both my parents died from weight related complications (diabetes) and my only sister is 253 5'3". She will follow in their foot steps by the time she is on her 60's.
Being heavy is not fun, it is heart breaking and people can be very cruel. You try and laugh it off, but inside it makes you feel like shit so you do eat more to feel better. Your only pal is that box of cookies or that pint of Ben and Jerry's in the fridge. You don't love yourself enough to break the cycle so you just continue.
I know I've been there. Until you are ready to love yourself, you won't ever be thin. And Dan is right, it isn't just going on a diet and then going back to the cookies. You can't ever have them again. Period. A diet is for life, so you can live a long and healthy one.

All this talk of bicycles amuses me. I've always been fat, and in high school i would ride my bike to and from school as often as the weather allowed. Eight miles each way. And then after school, i'd go out at ride some more. I did it because i enjoyed it.

Didn't affect my weight in the slightest. Gave me some killer calves, but the number on the scale didn't change. Didn't do anything to my dress size, either.

I've never been a big eater. My skinny husband easily eats 3-4 times as much as i do. I could say the same about my brother when he and i were children.

I have been on both side of the equation. And I can tell you this, being athletic and healthy feels great. And yes, I'm one of the 5% that has kept off more than 50 lbs for over 5 years. But body image issues don't just stop when you've hit the magical size 2. I've learned a lot from Kate Harding and the other great folk within the fat acceptance movement. And isn't it funny, but as the more I understand the kind of personal bullshit heaped upon the shapely, fat, and obese, the nicer I become to myself? Let me tell you something else. Be careful with your assumptions. My mom is skinny and beautiful. But she doesn't get off the couch. she watches a lot of tv. And when she feels like it, all she'll eat is frosting. My beautiful skinny mom has cancer. But she fits the physical mold of what's considered healthy. I had a teacher - if you looked at her you'd think she was fat. Well she had a sickness that required her to be on steroids and it puffed her right up. And then there is the story of Lynne Cox. Look her up. Just the best cold water long distance swimmer in history. But by her BMI & looks, she'd probably be obese and considered a lazy couch potato. I'm just saying it's so easy to look at the fat guy sitting next to you on the plane and make assumptions. It's so easy to be mean and dismiss someone in their entirety. And it's stupid and unproductive. Fat Acceptance and Health at Every Size is not a cop-out. It is a reasonable choice based on years of personal attacks and bad advice.

I used to be a cashier, and fat people didn't generally purchase more food, but definitly purchased more of the "junk" variety. This is not because it was cheaper (fresh, unprocessed food is cheaper-by far over here.)

Now as a waitress I see some strange things. Fat and slightly overweight people tend to order fattier foods and eat the whole dish, where as many of the thinner folk will share a dish, or take some home.

This is, of course not always the case-some skinny people definitely could pack it in! This is more of a trend.

With exercise: It takes half an hour of walking to burn off an apple, yet some think that by exercising, they can eat more. However-when you are exercising you are not as likely to be sitting home being tempted to eat.

That said, one does not have to be a glutton to gain some weight. It takes one extra apple a day to gain ten pounds a year, or one hundred in a decade.

"Telling fat people that they have a choice is like telling gay people that they have a choice...Be it 'glands', genetics, definable mental health problems, or simply an inability to stop eating..."

An inability to stop eating?!

For the record, I am gay and am I an ex-fattie. But now claiming that some people "can't stop eating" takes rationales for food addictions to dizzying new levels. If we start legitimizing that some people "can't stop" doing ANYTHING (I am not talk about the temptation, I am talking about the voluntary action), then we might as well just give up all hope for ANYTHING.

Yes, not all diets and exercise plans work the same for all people, but the basic principles of eat less/move more apply in all cases. Beneath all their layers of fat and beneath all their wounded pride, deep down the fat apologists are thoroughly aware of this. A rationale for a self-destructive addiction is a rationale for a self-destructive addiction, no matter how you slice it.

"It's important to make sure we fat freaks know that a) we're really repulsive and totally unhealthy, b) it's all our own fault, all of it, and c) anyone who questions received wisdom is a delusional liar."

You could just as well lift this rant and place it into the movie "Whatever happened to Baby Jane?"

"You wouldn't call me unattractive and unhealthy if I weren't fat, Baby Jane."

"But you ARE fat, Blanche, you ARE."

Saying "Diets don't work!" hundreds and hundreds of times in a row doesn't make it true.

It's like saying, "Quiting smoking doesn't work!" because it takes several times trying to quit smoking for many people, and even after then they have to control urges to smoke.

The idea that people shouldn't have body pride because they want to take up less space is retarded. The idea that fat people are, percentage-wise, as athletic and non-sedentary as healthy weight people is also retarded.

Take responsibility for once and realize that you are making the choice to stay fat, and if you keep making a choice, people will look down on you for it. Just like many of us look down on smokers.

@71 -

It's important to make sure we fat freaks know that a) we're really repulsive and totally unhealthy

The funny thing is that Dan never suggested such a thing in this post. As he said earlier here:

If you're heavy and happy and don't want to change, great, fine. Really--and you can be sexy and heavy.

And yet, all the fat acceptance folks seem to hear is "You're ugly".

Whenever I need to lose weight, what are the three things I do?
-stop going through the drive through.
-eat more vegetables.
-take in a bit of exercise.

Hmmmm... seems to work for me?

(Note that I acknowledge some people have medical conditions and that it IS a struggle for them)

Having just gotten myself educated in the last 24 hours about Kate Harding and the FA crowd, I formally retract (1) from my...

So I guess I'm questioning two of Dan's assumptions: (1) that most fat people aren't trying- hard- to lose that fat, and (2) that there is a simple and well understood mechanism to lose weight.

...quote. I realize now that Dan wasn't speaking about those of us who are trying to lose weight.

There seem to be two entirely different debates going on in this thread:

A) Are all fat people fat because they want to be and/or because they lack personal resolve?

B) Should obese people want to lose weight?

My arguments are all about (A), and the fact that I don't think weight loss is as well understood as many people- fat and thin- think. "Exercise more, lose weight", for instance, seems to be more contentious than one might otherwise expect. Dan also seems to be talking about (A), though perhaps we disagree on how readily available tools are to lose weight. I think that the government and most of the diet industry ignorantly tell people information that actually hurts their efforts to lose weight, because they have ignored all nutrition research since 1978 (and quite a bit of the pre-1978 research.)

Kate, and many of the posters here, really seems to want to duke out (B). I don't really have a dog in that fight. If people want to be fat, that's entirely their right. But I don't want to be fat, so (A) matters a great deal more to me. I'm not going to tell the FA'ers that they're wrong on this one, but I'm certainly not their constituency.

Hey skweetis, don't bitch at me. I was simply working off "fatguy's" assertion (go back and read it) that EVERYONE has a "relationship" with food and spends "hours" every day "obsessing" about it. And no, smart ass, I can't eat whatever I want - not if I don't want have to shelling out ungodly sums of cash to hospitals, dr's offices and drugstores for diagnoses, treatments & medications for complications from unhealthy eating habits. And since I don't have enough $$ for that shit = I don't eat three/four small meals every day consisting of strawberry shortcake and a margarita.

An inability to stop eating?!

For the record, I am gay and am I an ex-fattie. But now claiming that some people "can't stop eating" takes rationales for food addictions to dizzying new levels. If we start legitimizing that some people "can't stop" doing ANYTHING (I am not talk about the temptation, I am talking about the voluntary action), then we might as well just give up all hope for ANYTHING.

EXACTLY.

Damn, I did it again. That last paragraph was from Rick@77, to whom I meant to attribute it, responding to someone else. He made a good point.

Let's face it people, we are a FAT nation, your glands be damned!

I do have the autoimmune form of HYPOTHYROIDISM (aka Hashimoto's). I was diagnosed at the ripe old age of twenty. I started having symptoms at the age of TWELVE. I was already 5'7" and my weight stayed around 150 lbs. I never got taller and my weight didn't fluctuate much from than that.

I'm 33 now, underweight and still hypothyroid because my hypothyroidism is so hard to control. My joints hurt all the time, I have chest pain, the exhaustion is unbearable. I'm not going to go into some of the more gross aspects of what it does to my digestive tract. And that's not EVEN the tip of the iceberg.

Every cell in the body depends upon thyroid hormones for regulation of their metabolism.

So to anyone out there (most especially you Johnny) who thinks that those "glandular problems" are just a cop-out...FUCK YOU. I dare you to walk up to someone else suffering from another autoimmune disease and tell them that their disease is a cop-out. Because the likelihood that I'll be diagnosed with another auto-immune disease is much higher just because I have this one.

Go do some reading http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000353.htm

@#61
Dear Dan Savage,
I have read Savage Love and listened to your work on TAL for many years, and recently discovered Kate Harding's blog. I read both authors for the same reason -- you are entertaining writers and pugnaciously defend your opinions, whether or not they are popular.
You both get things wrong sometimes.
My contention: How you think about fatness falls squarely in the realm of prejudice.
And since you are so squarely in that place of prejudice, I don't think it's possible to change your mind.
What I think is happening here (and elsewhere) is the creation of a new hate movement (or not so new, but newly empowered). Fat haters (and some of them are themselves fat) want everyone to be in one camp or the other (thin/acceptable/fat hating vs. fat), and there are those of us who are rejecting this paradigm. Some of us are saying, hey, this looks familiar, and not so fast. Others are asserting their right to hate. Fat people may not have been persecuted to the same extent as other groups, but if it goes unchecked and has both formal and informal discriminatory policies for much longer, soon the persecution will begin to look more recognizable.
If you could stop a new form of persecution from gaining a stronger foothold, why wouldn't you?
Just a bit of context so you'll know where I'm coming from:
I weigh about 35 pounds less than my highest weight, and I'm still about 75 pounds above the weight at which I would no longer be considered obese by the BMI. I maintain this weight by moderately exercising and carefully considering what and how much I eat, without obsessing about it. Were I to exercise more (it would have to come at the cost of sleep -- I don't watch TV and don't spend all that much time outside of work and parenting on the internet) and eat more carefully (even though most of what I eat is prepared from whole foods at home, mostly local and organic) that would be great, and my weight might go down a bit, but not all that much. For me to lose those 75 pounds would take more effort than I actually have to give and still live a full life, work full time, be a good parent (swim lessons and play with my kid count as exercise). I'm speaking from experience -- for me to be perpetually in "lifestyle change" means a lack of sleep, no time for anything outside of work and exercise, and a grouchy persona. I've lived that before.
I want to eat better and move more because it's healthy, and yet, I know it won't make me lose weight.
For the record, I've never eaten a box of cereal for breakfast, and if a registered dietitian were to examine my diet, it would meet with a stamp of approval for meeting my nutritional needs.

And the article you've cited here is really a press release for the book. This whole discussion is prompted by quotes from exactly one fat woman.
No doubt you've been told by people who are "formerly gay" that they did it, so you can to. That's pretty much how it sounds to me when you say "I know diet and exercise can work... because they work for me." Diet and exercise work for me, too. They help keep me healthy. They just don't make me lose weight. I'm not saying that no one can lose or maintain weight loss. The fact that I chose to live a whole and balanced life rather than expend energy on "lifestyle change" that I can use at work, or with my family and friends, is entirely my choice and my right. Hate me for being fat if you want to, but don't assume I'm lying about how much I eat or exercise just because I look fat to you.
And if I'm not happy all the time, who says it has to do with being fat? Are all thin/"normal weight" people always happy? Really?

I'm sorry I'm late to this party, but I wanna give the fatties a bit to chew on (hah!)

First off, background: I was a chubby kid and fat flows on my dad's side of the family. After high school, I joined the Army, lost my fat and gained muscle. When I left the Army though, my lifestyle changed back.

10 years later, I weighed double what I did in back then. I take full responsibility for this - too many munchies, not enough healthy foods, and little exercise. It's that entire taking in more calories than you burn thing.

So here's the deal - find a healthy diet that works for you and you can stick with for the rest of your life. Yes it's hard, but I decided it was easier to do that then get diabetes and other medical complications.

And exercise. Take the stairs, walk downtown instead of taking the bus when you can, buy a set of dumbbells and work out your biceps while you read the Slog.

Talk to your Doctor. Maybe you have a medical condition, maybe there's something glandular. And maybe there's something they can do about it. And if not, then you've got a good reason to be fat.

Finally, most people aren't sexually attracted to fat people. Not all, but most. So many times I wonder if fat acceptance is all about trying to make people think that fat people are hot and getting offended when they don't.