the thing i find funny is obama leading among liberals in spite of ECB's "Obama is the least progressive candidate because he wants bipartisanship!" theory.

if obama doesnt get the nomination, i'm voting GOP.

Debate vs. Lost.

They better not be on at the same time.

haven't the last few weeks cured everyone of paying attention to polls? weren't rudy and hillary basically the shoe-in nominees according to these retarded guesswork stats a few weeks ago?

Go-bama, go-bama...

@1, I am with you. If Hillary Clinton is the nominee I am voting GOP in November as well.

dear god people, let's not be rash here.

mccain is also beating both clinton and obama in the national polls.

looks like we picked two losers.

lineout fan, remember the electoral college? simple majority is moot.

(except for the few states that award their electoral college votes based on the popular election results)

Something else to note: people are still reporting on poll numbers like they're something to be taken seriously.

McCain! McCain! McCain!

GO McCAIN! YAY!

Come on Cato and Bellevue ave, do you seriously think McCain or Romney will be better than Clinton? did you guys forget the lessons of 2000? A Dem is going to be better 99% of the time then a Rep.

The only thing I can think of is McCain is against torture while Clinton is for it. Granted, that's a pretty big issue.

You want me NOT to vote for the GOP? THEN DO NOT NOMINATE HILLARY!!! Besides, look at her record; she is a Republican in a donkey suit.

Why would you quote polls done by Republican pollsters?

@2 - they're not, the debate is from 5-7 on CNN, the new season of Lost starts at 9 on ABC. The review episode starts at 8.

yes. I find Clinton on economics, like Bush on Government Ethics. She has no fucking clue about the consequences of her proposed economic actions especially in relation to the real estate industry. I havent heard one economic policy from her that I actually liked. and honestly, she is like mccain:

- They support keeping the troop surge going as long as it is needed.
- They both support rolling the tax cuts back and taxing the rich.
- They both support the death tax
- They both support stricter gun control
- They both support raising SS taxes
- They both support amnesty for illegal aliens
- They both support some kind of green taxation
- They both support limiting campaign finance
- They both support going after big medicine

Seriously, she is mccain lite with a lot of bad ideas included. Also, how many of you really believe mccain will get any social conservative things through? with a democrat controlled congress, most likely none. he can't sign off on socially conservative legislation if it doesnt exist.

the lesson I learned in 2000 was that even if you vote for someone you agree with 99%, if they can't win an election you need to reconsider your vote. i don't think hillary can win against mccain, and im not going to help her win against mccain when i favor mccain more than her.

Look at McCain's record, He is no Democrat in an Elephant suit. I guarantee if dems cross party lines to vote for him they will be as disappointed as Nader voters were with GWB

Y'all are completely crazy if you think Clinton is a secret Republican, or McCain is a secret Democrat. There's no comparison. On policy Clinton is virtually identical to Obama, and McCain is far to the right of Ronald Reagan.

Obama, Clinton, McCain, even Romney, whatever. I'm just so fucking glad we're finally getting rid of Bush. Seriously. But it would be great to have Obama or even Clinton in the WH. And completely aside from the politics, if you missed Jack and Jackie (or had to suffer through Ron and Nancy), what a huge breath of fresh air Barack and Michelle would bring to revive our nation's culture.

Fnarf, let us enumerate how McCain and Hillary are different. you do the first 5.

yeah, I don't get that; "I hate Clinton or Obama so I'll vote for the republican candidate if one of them get the nomination"... I can see NOT voting, if you don't like the options but why would you vote for the 'enemy'? I like John McCain and I think he'd do a pretty good job and hopefully distance himself from the asshole wing of the party but he's still a conservative and he's going to nominate pretty conservative people to the Cabinet and the judiciary and in order to make the asshats happy, at least some of them are going to have to be hard line conservative types.

Fine, then don't vote for her. She will win the primary, and the election, and y'all can kiss her ass. She is not even close to being McCain lite, but it's your right to be misinformed and ignorant.

If Obama wins the nomination, I won't even vote in november. He is a slimy opportunist who has never fought for the things he supposedly believes. I could rattle of all of the shit he has done and why he isn't the golden boy you believe him to be, but would you listen?

No. Because it has already been stated and restated in these forums for months, and Obamatons refuse to acknowledge any shortcomings this man has, and he has quite a few.

Fine, then don't vote for her. She will win the primary, and the election, and y'all can kiss her ass. She is not even close to being McCain lite, but it's your right to be misinformed and ignorant.

If Obama wins the nomination, I won't even vote in november. He is a slimy opportunist who has never fought for the things he supposedly believes. I could rattle of all of the shit he has done and why he isn't the golden boy you believe him to be, but would you listen?

No. Because it has already been stated and restated in these forums for months, and Obamatons refuse to acknowledge any shortcomings this man has, and he has quite a few.

Clinton appeals to my "stick it to those Republicans and Red Staters" instincts. Part of me, after 8 years of hell, would LOVE to give them their worst nightmare: the hated Hillary as President!

However, I know that attitude will only backfire. She polls abysmally among independants and swing-voters. Nominating her would truly be cutting off my nose to spite my face.

We can aruge who is more (slightly) to the right or left with Obama vs Hillary but it comes down (for me) to who does NOT have a 49% UNFAVORABLE RATING nationally. Thanks to the Electoral College this is not a national vote where Hillary can rely on her 51% and Bush hated to skim her by. Obama is the safer bet nationally.

I don't remember one HRC supporter saying they will not vote for Obama but many Obama supporters say they will vote for McCain if HRC gets the nomination. Whether true or only a threat only they know.

Ok one HRC supporter.

To those who say they'd vote McCain before Hillary:

Just think about the judicial appointments if nothing else. I admire many things about John McCain, but he has made it pretty clear that judicial appointments will be the bones he throws to the Far Right. Justice Stevens has been holding on for Eight Years and many other circuit court judges as well. Even a divisive Clinton presidency would at least guarantee some much needed liberal-to-moderates in the judicary to counter the 8 years of scary Bush II appointments.

@25 see @23

Fnarf@18 is right, but the fact that so many don't realize it is a testament to the power of rhetoric. Hence Obama's independent appeal. Score one for the "bipartisanship" guy ECB dreads so much.

@27 8 years of Hillary or 4 years of McCain which is worst? Just asking?

morons, patronizing me just pushes me farther away from you. hillary appears to be a divider. one that attracts self righteous blowhards that would rather lose elections but stick to their conscience.

who could hillary possibly muster enough support to win when her nomination would send people to republicans?

again, show me how mccain and hillary are different.

I'm sorry, I was watching Lost.

Personally, I find it interesting how the media fails to grok that the big story is the massive numbers of undecideds and non-typical voters (people who don't vote) that are turning out in record numbers.

Prediction in these circumstances is a waste of time. But I predict the media will try to spin some kind of "oh, Clinton's going to lose!" thing so they can say "in a surprise showing, she was neck and neck with Obama".

It's what the Clinton's do - lower expectations so they can always proclaim victory. And the media is so hungry for a story - any story - that they play along.

Obama's doing better than fine right now - and we all know it.

lol - a "threat"? we're voting, not taking hostages.

everyone should probably just vote for the candidate they like best and not worry yer pretty li'l heads about anyone else.

Everybody threatening to drown a puppy if their candidate doesn't win is bluffing.

Stop it; you look stupid.

Clinton had the same negatives but won blowout elections 2x and got many R and I votes in NY state.

"if obama doesnt get the nomination, i'm voting GOP" = "Obama, he's for unity, he's going to unify America, but if you don't pick him -- then fuck you." Duly noted.

Usually it's best not to cater to such childish emotional foot stamping.

@30: Honestly? I think I would still take 8 years of Clinton (mostly because of the judicary, but some issues as well).....but I really had to think hard about it!!! It is possible that 4 years of McCain might be what Dem Party needs to finally shed their attachment to the Baby Boomer culture wars and misplaced idolatry of the Clintons.

there isn't shit to recommend a presenile 72 year old man who divorced wife #1 & married a pill-popping bottle blonde heiress trophy wife less than a year after starting an affair with her, won't stop the war, won't curb the GOP's proto-fascist agenda, and will be a full-blown alzheimer's victim shortly after being re-elected in 2012.

i prefer obama because crushing the GOP will be easier in november. but i'm not such a fool as to vote against hillary just because she's a venal politician.

they all are. it is the definition of a successful politican. jim mcdermott, the politician with integrity? he's an UNSUCCESSFUL politician. no power, no pork for our district & a net outflow of tax dollars, but he's got the moral high ground. yippee fucking skippee.

wrong brandon; that leads to real shit heads like bush getting elected. people shouldnt have voted for nater because the alternative is worse.

people shouldnt vote for hillary because she will surely lose a national election.

Are you people COMPLETELY STUPID?

McCain supports repealing Roe v. Wade and making abortion illegal, and opposes sex education. He supports "Don't ask, don't tell". He's rated 0% by the ACLU. He wants to hugely expand the War on Drugs. He thinks school districts should be allowed to teach creationism if they want to. He's completely opposed to any kind of state-supported health care. He wants to attack Iran. He will keep us in Iraq for 100 years.

What are you people thinking? Vote Obama, sure, I plan to; but even the dimmest Obama supporter can't possibly believe McCain is better than Clinton -- can you?

Bellevue, you belong in the Republican party. When it comes down to it, you are always going to vote for the real Republican over the fake Republican, and we all know it.

Stop pretending you might vote for Hillary if the Slog gives you a blowjob.

Bellevue, you belong in the Republican party. When it comes down to it, you are always going to vote for the real Republican over the fake Republican, and we all know it.

Stop pretending you might vote for Hillary if the Slog gives you a blowjob.

@31 Choice, Environment, Judicial appointments

unPC, sometimes you have to take a stand against losing elections. My ultimatum is totally in line with that. Support a Democratic candidate that can actually beat McCain or go fuck yourself and lose another election.

McCain:
Rated 0% by NARAL (women's rights)
Rated 0% by the ACLU (civil rights)
Rated 7% by the NAACP (minority issues)
Rated 33% by HRC (LGBT rights)
Rated 83% by the Christian Coalition

Clinton:
Rated 100% by NARAL
Rated 60% by the ACLU
Rated 96% by the NAACP
Rated 89% by HRC
Rated 0% by the Christian Coalition

i realize that bellevue, but banging your head against a brick wall would probably be more productive.

one thing i learnt from reading the slog: what obama supporters see as hillary's greatest weaknesses [her divisiveness and overall slime factor], hillary's supporters consider election-winning GOLD. i just don't think there is any mind-changing going on here.

Ultimatum = Terrorism.

i'd like eli to put up a slog poll:

if obama loses the nom. would you vote for"

clinton

mccain

i'd love to know how many fairweather progressives are on slog.

if you guys can't see the difference between hrc and mccain (on judiciary issue ALONE!) then you are lemmings ready for a good drowning in november....

c'mon eli, poll 'em.

elenchos, Obama is the real Republican? I'm not pretending I'll vote for Hillary. I've stated I will not vote for her under any circumstance, even if it means I vote for McCain who isn't any worse than Clinton on issues i care about (and is in fact better), and wont be able to do shit on any of the issues i dont agree with (because of congress being big D country)

elenchos, are you caucusing at Seattle Central on the 9th? Cause I'll be there pulling for Obama. You might actually have enough balls to come up and say hi.

For more about how John McCain is evil and Hillary Clinton is not, see:

http://ontheissues.org/John_McCain.htm
http://ontheissues.org/Hillary_Clinton.htm

so when parents make ultimatums they are terrorists?

In the scary scenario of McCain/Clinton race in Nov:

Instead of threatening to vote McCain if the Democrats are unwise enough to nominate Clinton, what I WILL do is unregister myself as a Democrat and switch my allegiance to Independent. I will vote for Clinton, though.

If my party was/is foolish enough to waste this opportunity of a divided, unpopular, struggling GOP by nominating a candidate than can actually UNITE Republicans and independants....well, I'd rather just call myself a liberal independant then.

@43 that is totally backwards, voting for the person who you think is going to win is not a rational reason to vote, vote for the best person in hopes that they will win. Voting based on the "momentum" makes no rational sense, best candidate is the best candidate regardless of the end vote. While I prefer Obama, Hillary is infinitely better than any Republican running. voting against her in the general because she can't win in the general is more of a reason to vote for her then.

@48

Sorry, I don't believe you. You're voting Republican.

And seriously, I do not want to know you.

mccain cant do shit as the president in terms of passing legislation if the crap doesnt even make it out of congress. he will in fact pass some good legislation put forth by democrats.

Tell me when it's time to caucus. K?

Bellevue Ave: The HRC supporters are forgetting one little item that Hillary did do: SHE VOTED TO CONFIRM BOTH OF BUSH'S SUPREME COURT APPOINTMENTS!!!

Yeah, I am not voting for a woman who clearly says she will protect the right to choose but when it comes down to it: she will not.

All you HRC supporters: LOOK AT HILLARY'S RECORD NOT WHAT SHE SAYS!!!!

but here's the thing voodoo, i don't find the prospect of mccain that bad because he wont have the support in congress to get some of his stances on the issue pushed through. compared to hillary who will have the support to push through a lot of bad legislation that i disagree with.

I'm not voting for hillary under any circumstance. I feel Obama is better than McCain and McCain is better than Clinton. This has nothing to do with momentum.

I also think it's bullshit for people to vote for hillary in the primary against Obama because i don't believe she has a chance in the general election because of people like me and a mobilized base of people that hate hillary and are republican, but not mccain fans. Either way Hillary loses, either to Obama, and then you have a glimmer of getting a lot progressive stuff put through, or to McCain where you dont have even that shot.

@34 - please don't drown me!

Can't we all just get along?

And don't let that really old guy McCain near me ... I hear he hunts ... with dogs ... and they don't all come back ...

everyone remember to bookmark these dustups for comedy nostalgia next January when McCain is being inaugurated and you want to understand "whyyyyyy? what did we do wrong?"

Clinton had the same negatives but won blowout elections 2x and got many R and I votes in NY state.

Sigh.

First, Hillary's first win was not a blowout. She did better than expected but she was also running against a loser whose only appeal was that he wasn't Hillary. If Giuliani hadn't gotten prostate cancer, she would have lost to him.

Second, Independents and Republicans in New York are very different from Independents and Republicans elsewhere in the country. For one thing, they're willing to vote for a center candidate who runs on something other than "I'm not candidate X. Vote for me."

@59, oh when Hillary gets her ass kicked by McCain the HRC supporters will find a way to say "it is voter fraud, it wasn't Hillary's fault. Who could have seen that she alienated more voters than she attracted! We are totally shocked". Mark My Words!

Anyone else caucusing at Eckhert Middle School on the 9th. I am going to be there pushing Obama. GO 46TH DISTRICT!!!!

Four More Wars!

Or Five!

Heck, let's invade Cuba!

What I love about Obama is he has captured the imagination of young, urban voters (YUV's). YUV's tend to be pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, and in favor of environmental initiatives, transit, etc. All of my big issues.

The thing that concerns me most is that when we go into the general elections and the Republican's get nasty and the fight is on and the attacks and mudslinging begins those YUV's get turned off and start saying ... "well I hate politics anyway and my vote doesn't matter". And then they go to the bar and get a cocktail or turn on Project Runway and tune out.

I don't trust them to have the fortitude to withstand the realities of a full on down and dirty political campaign. And then we end up with President McCain and another Supreme Court Justice willing to overturn Roe v. Wade.

I already really like Hillary and think she would make a great president and a fantastic world leader. Her 'swing' is Latinos, Republic Woman, and older voters. Much more steady and sure footed voter base than Obamas 'swing' -young, urban voters who get easily spooked.

Mrs. Y, her swing is a joke compared to the counter swing of people who hate who she is as a person.

I think this time we will be surprised in the general if Obama makes it there; he's already shown young voters that they do count and he beat the establishment. it was so nice why dont we play 2 now?

@16, Bellevue Ave; don't get me wrong, when the second amendment says "common defense" I don't think they were talking about Bambi, and if the British had had assault rifles, the founders of constitution would have wanted them too. That said, McCain advocating instant background checks when one is buying assault rifles and armor piercing ammunition at gun shows, probably does not equal "- They both support stricter gun control" and if it slows you down a little I'm all for it.

I know; "Don't Feed The Trolls", but a lot of others are doing it and I couldn't resist pointing out what a f'ing moron you are.

mccain literally is the only republican i would vote for in this election. huckabee is a populist zealot.
romney is a slimy semantics smith.

further, those arguments up there are straight from a republican conservative telling me why mccain and hillary are almost the same. i dont make the lies, i just repeat them to make a point about perception that the other side has about hillary and mccain.

anyway, if you dont think im being genuine come out to the caucus and see what i'm doing there.

Bellevue Ave - would you just do us all a favor and move to upstate New York already?

want to pay for my expenses to move to NYC?