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Saturday, January 26, 2008

Islam Means Peace

posted by on January 26 at 19:51 PM

Not all Muslims are planning to blow up subway trains… but it sure seems like everyone planning to blow up subway trains these days is a Muslim.

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So dammit guys, stop whining about the lack of proper rapid transit in the Seattle area; it would just attract terrorist evildoers.

Posted by Karlheinz Arschbomber | January 26, 2008 8:00 PM

Are you trying to taunt the Irish out of retirement?

Posted by elenchos | January 26, 2008 8:05 PM

Actually, they prefer to blow up planes.

Especially since the Sikhs and Russians stopped doing it.

Posted by Will in Seattle | January 26, 2008 8:10 PM

Back in the late 70's, a good friend of ours traveled around the world, mostly by bike, fucking his way multiculturally along.
Anyway, in Indonesia, and elsewhere, he met many Muslims whose primary mesage to him was,"Islam is the new world order. You may as well accept it." At the time it worried him. Of course, it's just as worrisome to listen to fuckwad W. talking about "spreading freedom." Islam ain't about the "free market", they just wipe out anybody who doesn't join up. Ultimately, however, the results are similar.

Posted by isabelita | January 26, 2008 8:14 PM

Yeah, Muslim = Islamist and journalists love the word "seems." Easier than working.

Posted by Erik | January 26, 2008 8:15 PM

Yes, but not everyone interested in the hikacking of aircrafts is a muslim.,2933,325426,00.html

Posted by India | January 26, 2008 8:17 PM

@ 2 - the Irish were never much of a threat to anyone but themselves.

Posted by UnoriginalAndrew | January 26, 2008 8:18 PM

What is up with you and the anti-muslim campaign?

Posted by jean genie | January 26, 2008 8:27 PM

It balances Dan's anti-Christian campaign.

Posted by Gay People Suck | January 26, 2008 8:37 PM

Not surprisingly the "friends of the Muslims" have come out to defend this "peaceful" religion. HA HA HA.

If the journalists "work harder", will fewer Muslim groups plot to blow up airplanes and train stations?

Posted by Nebula37 | January 26, 2008 8:39 PM

Oddly enough I've just finished watching Bloody Sunday, and quite frankly all those fookin brit bastards deserve what the fook they fooking get. Éireann go Brách you bloooody bastards! Éireann go fookin Brách!

Posted by kinaidos | January 26, 2008 8:40 PM

It's also worth noting that all of these people, like the 9/11 hijackers, are men. That Y chromosome sure does make for some evil people.

Posted by also | January 26, 2008 8:42 PM

@7, @11, tell it to Jonathan Ball and Tim Parry.

Islam doesn't mean "peace", Dan, it means "submission". Your scaremongering would make better sense if you knew what you were talking about.

Posted by Fnarf | January 26, 2008 8:44 PM

Islam means peace... that's what we were told incessantly after 9/1. It has long since been debunked, as if it needed debunking after 9/11 itself. But that line stuck in my head and it's what the header references, Fnarf, just like "ever child needs..." posts references a line we've heard again and again from anti-gay bigots.

And is it scare mongering if you're honestly and sincerely scared? Remember those "Jesus, Protect Me From Your Followers" bumper stickers that were--heck, still are--popular with folks who think right-wing Christians are scary? Well, I find radical Islam to be pretty scary.

Posted by Dan Savage | January 26, 2008 9:03 PM

Well, sure it was all the way back in the 20th century when Catholics and Protestants ran around blowing up whomever for their holy war, but it does prove that others are capable of the same thing. I mean it is isolated to just Irish Christians. Well, isolated to them and Tim McVeigh. But other than him, and that guy who blew up the Atlanta Olympics and killed those abortion doctors. Other than those isolated cases, it's too easy to think only Moslems do this stuff. That's what makes it so hard to defend Islam, you know? Outside of the rare rampaging Catholics in the Balkans or Aum Shinrikyo attack in Tokyo, you really don't find any examples of terrorism except for Moslems.

Why, I bet I'd have to turn to the Google if I was determined to make a decent long list. You basically can't think of more than a dozen examples from living memory, which is nothing, am I right?

Posted by elenchos | January 26, 2008 9:12 PM

And you dare to call me a terrorist
As you look down your gun
When I think of all the deeds that you have done

You have plundered many nations
Divided many lands
You have terrorized their peoples
You've ruled with an iron hand
And you've brought this reign of terror to my land.

(Wolfe Tones - Joe McDonnel - but experienced in a pub in Ireland while playing the fiddle - with a pub full of people singing along - well - you understand pretty quick that CNN has nothing to do with any of this).

q'un sang impur abreuve nos sillons!

Posted by kinaidos | January 26, 2008 9:13 PM

"Radical islam". You said it yourself.
Not muslims.
Shame on you. You're being an asshole.
Maybe we should just lock them all up. Like we did the Japanese. Cuz, you know, people were scared of those japs.

Posted by jean genie | January 26, 2008 9:16 PM

@15 If your going to call names you should at least spell it right.

Posted by jean genie | January 26, 2008 9:18 PM

We seriously need to give ordinary muslims a break. I mean, do we hold ordinary christians responsible for the Westboro Baptist Church?

Posted by angelfish | January 26, 2008 9:25 PM

Wait...@15...sorry, my bad. nevermind the snarky comment about the spelling.

Posted by jean genie | January 26, 2008 9:25 PM

"Oddly enough I've just finished watching Bloody Sunday, and quite frankly all those fookin brit bastards deserve what the fook they fooking get. Éireann go Brách you bloooody bastards! Éireann go fookin Brách!"

I watched the dvd of that one too. Bloody hell, those limeys would not stop shooting!
Also:Is America's defenses so good that any terrorist who wanted to couldn't blow up a car or bus or Sounder train if they wanted to? Just asking.

Posted by Isawthatonetoo | January 26, 2008 10:26 PM

"Well, I find radical Islam to be pretty scary."

Just like all those wars past when people were wondering why Japanese and Vietnamese(?not sure) were committing suicide just to make sure some of us got killed too. Any culture that says suicide is an ok thing has got to be either very committed or very scary insane.

Posted by harry kari | January 26, 2008 10:32 PM

Any culture that says suicide is an ok thing has got to be either very committed or very scary insane.

very religious = very insane

Posted by Tiffany | January 26, 2008 10:44 PM

What is the point of a post like this? We are all aware of what is going on the world. It is like endlessly bringing up the fact that, proportionally, blacks americans commit more crimes than white americans and just shoving this in our face. We get it. There is not an even distribution of behaviors amongst different groups. What the fuck are you trying to prove? What attitude are you trying to change? What are we, the readers supposed to be convinced of? These posts are so fucking tired. You want to comment on radical muslims, then say something new, or interesting. Do some analysis. Suggest a course of action. I don't know. Make some kind of point, other than bludgeoning us with these intentionally sensational and crude statements.

Posted by Lanik | January 26, 2008 10:46 PM

oh god don't make this a recurring feature

go back to the pitbulls for fuck's sake

Posted by Kiru Banzai | January 26, 2008 10:55 PM

@ 13 - obviously, Belfast specifically and Northern Ireland generally were shitty places to live for the better part of thirty or forty years thanks to the IRA and the Protestant paramilitaries, and any number of other assholes, and yes, there were some attacks in England proper, but the Troubles was/were still almost exclusively a Northern Ireland problem.

And to the extent that motivation matters, neither the IRA nor the Protestant paramilitaries were particularly motivated by religion per se.

@ 15 - McVeigh wasn't Christian.

Posted by UnoriginalAndrew | January 26, 2008 11:07 PM


So you're saying it isn't that Islamic terrorists kill innocent people. That's fine; Christian terrorists did that for years and it was all good. What makes Islam so awful is their willingness to travel long distances to kill innocent people?

And McVeigh was a devout Catholic. He once wrote a letter calling himself was agnostic, but he asked for a priest at his execution, and most importantly, was raised in the church.

Posted by elenchos | January 26, 2008 11:31 PM

@ 15 I think the difference is that when some nutwad Christian kills an abortion doctor, when Phelps pickets, etc., the Christian world loudly protests these acts.

When Muslim terrorists strike, when girl children are killed by Daddy for "honor", etc....all is silence. The only voices raised are in support for murderers.

Until the sane, moderate Muslims speak out, loudly and strongly, I will be scared. Cultural relativism is fine until you'd rather be polite than speak out against cultures that are undeniably wrong. It's moral cowardice to never take a stand.

Posted by Kimberly | January 26, 2008 11:44 PM

@19 - I do. Why don't ordinary Christians take care of radical ones? If the radical ones are so few in number, shouldn't the peaceful and rational majority smother them into submission?

At least radical Muslims take care of themselves, eventually.

Posted by Chris in Tampa | January 27, 2008 1:46 AM

Obviously you've never heard of the guy that caught trying to buy the chemical components for nerve gas from a CIA agent 6 months ago... he wanted to kill everyone in Congress. Why have you never heard of this? Because his name was Demetrius "Van" Crocker and he was a anti-government white supremacist. It only made page six of the local Jackson, Tenn. paper. He was sentenced to 30 years; and not in Guantanamo.

Posted by Colton | January 27, 2008 3:54 AM


You mean speaking out the way Benazir Bhutto did? I guess from where you sit, it all seems so easy.

Posted by elenchos | January 27, 2008 9:08 AM

Apparently we ignorant Seattle liberals needed a post by the almighty Slogistas to clear this up: terrorists are bad. Let that sink in, Seattle!

Here's the part I don't get: Dan Savage, you supported the War in Iraq at least at first. This naive, Christopher Hitchens-parroting "clash of civilizations" atheism seems to be the driving force behind it.

I get that you don't like supersition-driven bigotry. Who does?

So what's the agenda? Is the idea that the US somehow has the power to convert all these primitive supersitious foreigners either by force, or by some other means? If so, good luck with that!

Meanwhile, we Seattle liberals will continue to support a more diplomatic approach to foreign policy.

Posted by george | January 27, 2008 9:54 AM

Hey Kimberly...

Where exactly are you looking for moderate Muslim reactions to terrorist acts? I could give you tons.

You're not gonna get it from Fox, nbc, abc, cnn, etc...

Posted by sonarfive | January 27, 2008 10:31 AM

I'm just happy that Guy Fawkes didn't have access to a 767....

Posted by NapoleonXIV | January 27, 2008 11:58 AM

elenchos @15, most excellent rebuttal.

The problem with terrorists isn't their religion; it's their actions, their choices.  And the issue driving terrorist mass production is the culture.

Isn't the religion a part of the part of the culture?  Yes, of course, but just one part.

Isn't religion in general completely fucked up?  Yes.

Isn't Islam more fucked up than most?  Probably.

Don't majority Muslim cultures produce more terrorists than anyone else?  Yeah, but correlation does not imply causation.

All that misses the point.  Demonizing the religion will only help convince moderates that the radicals are right about how the rest of the world is out to get them.  No good will come of it.

Posted by lostboy | January 27, 2008 12:51 PM

"I find radical Islam to be pretty scary."

Yes, and bigotry is bred from fear.

Dan, you've come perilously close to crossing the line with this post. You need to start choosing your words more carefully.

Posted by Irena | January 27, 2008 1:51 PM

Jesus, just a little bit of living in a glass house here. Just a teeny, tiny little bit.

The ratio of people killed by State Terror (e.g., the bombardments of Afghanistan and Iraq) to the number of people killed by retail terror (e.g., blowing up a subway train) is 100,000 to 1.

You pay your fucking Federal Income Taxes, Dan? Fifty percent of them are used to conduct terror operations. You're funding terror networks with every single paycheck.

But, gee, those are only just negroes buried under our bombs. So it's all good, yeah? Pass the fucking ammo, right?

Posted by shitbrain | January 27, 2008 2:13 PM

By the way, that comment wouldn't pass the spam-filter until I removed the link to Dan's article -- though it's supposed to only trip it if a comment contains more than two links...

Posted by shitbrain | January 27, 2008 2:17 PM

Thank you #24, for putting my thoughts into words. I suppose we all have flaws, but this post makes me question Dan Savage's values/tolerance/intelligence/etc.

Posted by Amees | January 27, 2008 2:23 PM

@29: Exactly what would you suggest ordinary Christians do about Fred Phelps, Pat Robertson and other members of the American Taliban (and by extension, ordinary Muslims about their religion's extremist element)?

I belong to a gay friendly, anti-war, anti-Bush peacenik congregation on Capitol Hill. Fred Phelps has picketed my church on numerous occasions because, among other things, we hold wedding ceremonies for same sex couples, house the office of the Religious Coalition for Equality, have openly gay pastors and lay leaders and (the specific reason we were included on Westboro's shit list according to their website, we had a memorial service for two of our members, a same sex couple, who were killed in a plane crash. The religious right hates us probably more than they hate atheists because they think we should join their silly crusades and we tell them (figuratively speaking, of course) to go fuck themselves.

The mainstream media barely acknowledges we exist since we're generally too boring. We won't make the news unless we say or do something completely outrageous, which goes against our nature. Consequently, nonreligious people don't even know we exist or only exist in numbers too small to matter. And religious moderates and liberals tend to keep a low profile since we don't think those who don't believe what we do will burn for eternity in some subterranean blast furnace. So how would you suggest ordinary religious people, Christian, Muslim, whatever, handle their extremists? If you have concrete and constructive suggestions, please let us know.

Posted by RainMan | January 27, 2008 4:19 PM

Ordinary religious people should all be doing just what you're doing, en masse. It would cease being a soft news story if half the churches in America followed your church's lead. It should be noted, however, that I'm simply not convinced that there is a "peaceful and rational majority", and that's why I hold them all in contempt.

I'm sure there are a great deal of Christians who disagree with the Westboro Baptist Church. But only because many of them prefer to mask their hatred with a veneer of tolerance or smiles. Many of them go to churches that hold most of the same intolerant views, and almost none of those people, whether they agree with those views or not, are willing to change their church's policies in order to collectively rebuff the extremists.

Posted by Chris in Tampa | January 28, 2008 3:16 AM

There will be no peace as long as there is more than one religion in the world.

Posted by monkey | January 28, 2008 10:38 AM

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