Comments on Is Mad Cow a Disease? Or Is It Revenge?

Those downer cows end up in the school lunch system.
http://www.hsus.org/farm/news/ournews/undercover_investigation.html

That's hilarious.

I thought the Stranger's editorial line was that carnivores are hip and vegetarians are dorks.

Beef is so much easier to eat when it's just an abstract lump of red stuff in shrink wrap.

This from a guy going to a leather convention this year...or does The Crypt sell road-kill leather chaps?

Sickening.

uh, http://www.veganerotica.com/

Capitalism works!

I know it's too much to hope for, but would the Libertarians in the audience take a moment to consider this spectacle? That a corporation is using a forklift to drop a sickly, possibly diseased animal into a grinder so that it can be rendered into food for children? In the face of this and many, many other examples, can we abandon the idea that there is no regulatory role for government?

It's a jungle out there.

Dan's comment is a little weird though. Does he think chicken, pigs, or fish fare any better? This isn't specific to beef, factory farming is cruel and inhumane, period.

@5: Seriously ill cows are pretty much only good for leather. You wouldn't want them used for food, would you?

@11: Factory farming of pigs is especially bad because of the waste problem.

The greatness of a nation and it's moral progress can be judged by the way it's animals are treated. ...I hold that, the more helpless a creature, the more entitled it is to protection by man from the cruelty of man." - Mahatma Gandhi -

nuff said.

I think Fastfood Nation had this info in it. Or was it that other book. . .

This is one major reason we don't buy beef from chain grocery stores. We buy it from a local butcher who buys it from small, local farmers.

The libertarian answer is; don't buy beef. empowered with information that a downer cow might be put into your gullet, you shouldn't buy beef until you can be assured producers have raised their standard.

also, who cares if factory farms are inhumane; animals arent humans. don't like factory farms? don't buy their goods, and don't work there.

cruel.....but soooo delicious.

@14 - Yeah? Well, Hindus think cows are sacred, which is creepy and inance, so I'm not inclined to listen to Ghandi lecture me on animals. Non-violent resistance? Sure. This? No.

Now if you'll excuse me, this post has made me hungry for hamburgers.

YAY DAN!

Aside from the serious morality problems, beef is by far the worst source of food for the environment and your health. It's actually the worst thing we do for the environment and global warming -- whether beef comes from a factory farm or not.

@17- maybe your missing the point on purpose, but your argument is like saying "don't like racism? don't be racist." The point is that PEOPLE are eating bad meat. This needs to stop. Then again, don't like people? Don't be a person.

Ahh - I'm to wait until I'm "assured". Fantastic - great plan. I'll just boycott them until they notice and bother to lie to me? Good plan - rigorous thought, that.

And I'm not complaining that this farm is inhumane - that's a mess of an argument. I'm speaking to purely utilitarian points. "Downer" animals are much more likely to be carrying the prions associated with BSE. Not only is this point obviously insufficient for factories to act to prevent their introduction into the food supply - they seem to be going to great lengths to insure that these sickly cows _are_ rendered as food.

But this is just one of many examples - the current "sub-prime" and credit crisis are also fine examples of the results of deregulation. It's a beautiful world you Libertarians are working on here.

American meat culture is so fucking bizzare. Only in the states is it so imperative that we have a huge slab of meat at every single god damn meal! And people become so defensive of their diet when people choose NOT to eat meat, or even as much of it. Vegetarianism isn't so much of a concern in countries ... well for two reasons. The availability of meat, and the fact that they don't have the diseased drugged factory farms that the states have (or at least not as bad). In Italy the cow eaten for dinner, could have been in the pasture down the street three weeks ago (give time to age). The majority of americans aren't afforded such a luxury.

Even more bizzare is that meat in this country comes in three flavors, chicken, pork or beef. Anything else is considered "bizzare" exotic ... "gamey".

Thank USFDA who found themselves both promoting factory farming AND trying to regulate it.

Yes, I'll call myself a vegetarian who after 10 plus years has been experimenting with SOME seafood every month or so (my pallate has seemed to change after 10 years ... go figure). I still like leather

@16: And yet, much of the worst beef - from "downer" cows - goes into the school lunch program. So children, who are not able to make informed choices about their diets, eat this meat. What do you propose to do about that? If you don't like the lunch program, don't send your kids to school?

Since Mad Cow was discovered in the UK, I hardly eat any beef anymore with the exception of buying it from Whole Foods. I just don't trust the beef found in the grocery stores today. I'll replace beef with farm-raised bison and lamb. Bison's better for you than beef and tastes better.

Exactly why I ave up meat years ago. Nasty, nasty business. And you will never be able to count on the corporate meat industry to humanely slaughter animals. Takes too much time and costs too much money.

This is nothing new, of course. There's Sinclair Lewis' The Jungle and that stark, blank-and-white PBS documentary from the '60s called Meat which many PBS stations in cattle country refused to broadcast.

Stay away from it, Dan. Your heart will thank you.

@9... you are wrong. libertarians are not in favour of animal cruelty -- that's just stupid. libertarians are in favour of the most freedom possible with a system that works. give me a break -- i identify as libertarian and i do not eat beef or chicken at all. maybe if this occurred under a libertarian regime you could criticize that regime.

this is clearly a case where the current laws (developed under a capitalist system) need to be enforced and maybe improved. i'm sure you can understand that libertarians are in favour of at least some laws.

I don't think people should eat meat if they don't believe it is safe. The options are there. Become a vegetarian, a vegan, you can do it.

John Galt, you're essentially saying people are too stupid or too irresponsible to make decisions for themselves therefore the government should enforce a standard that will be broken. People can make a choice not to eat beef because they don't believe it is safe.

nutter butter, if you don't like factory farms what can you do? burn them down? try to pass legislation that regulates how many cows can occupy a certain space and thusly give them more subsidies to do it?

as for your analogies; dont like racism? dont be one yourself, make it know that racism isn't acceptable to you, and show other people why racism is wrong without being a dick about it. you won't win over everyone, but did you really expect that?

Hey Hernandez, You missed Gandhi's point. He was saying that you can judge a society and how morally evolved it is by how it treats it's animals.
Go ahead and eat that burger. I'm not stopping you. But it really says something about a person who can watch an animal be cruelly slaughtered and think..."mmmm lunch." I just don't get that, but I am glad I don't.

greg, make a lunch for your child. inform your child that the meat is from downer cows. does everyting in the school lunch program have meat and if so why havent a few vocal vegetarian parents spoken up about this? i'm sorry but you're coming at this from the perspective that there is no alternative to this one good that has some suspect production practices.

Is there anything wrong with believing people should simply eat LESS meat ... or perhaps LESS in general? Am I taking crazy pills for thinking people are totally polarized on this? If it wasn't so important to have beef every god damn meal, then it wouldn't be so important to squeeze as much diseased meat product from a miserable industry. Hell even lions don't eat meat every day (well simply because meat is nutrient dense and simply don't need to eat every day).

One of the worst things I've ever seen. I swore off beef after reading omnivore's dilemna and that's just more evidence.

This is an example of the American desire for everything to be "affordable". Someone or something is paying the price for that affordability; in this case the animals.

using quotes from famous people never made a good argument maxine.

also the obvious fallacy here is that because india treats cows and other animals so well, they must be morally evolved. Do you think ghandi was going to talk smack about india? yeah, india is soooooo morally evolved compared to who or what?

The problem with the free market approach is simply that we have tried it and it failed. Nobody needs to theorize whether it is because consumers are stupid, or ignorant, or perhaps the number of dollars each consumer has to vote with is not enough to make a difference.

It's an empirical fact that the free market is what gave us a tainted food supply, and the free market has failed to fix the problem. You can worry about why if you want to, but the immediate need is to try something else, not insanely repeat the free market solution in the hopes that it will work differently than in the past.

great response @28.

1 - you have a choice, even if most people are too lazy or self-centered to handle it

2 - your choice makes a difference by itself and will affect those around you

3 - passing laws to require base standards is not anti-libertarian. libertarians believe the gov should protect you from harm coming from others.

4 - the current system is no an example of a libertarian practice. in a lib system, there would theoretically at least be some sort of monitor in place.

@36 ... I was always under the impression that libertarians want some sort of free market anarchy to govern our lives ... but if there is something society requires, it simply is free.

I.e. our teachers, road workers, and firefighters simply work for free ...

34 - I don't believe Gandhi was speaking on behalf of India when he said what he said. Yes I agree that using famous quotes doesn't work but I have always thought of that particular quote when I read about animal cruelty and especially institutional animal cruelty. I think Gandhi's quote is quite relevant. I grew up in rural eastern Washington surrounded by farms and people who liked to hunt and fish. I became a vegetarian at age 9 because of the rampant cruelty I witnessed. That was the 70s and it has only gotten worse. I have no respect for those that refuse to protect the most vulnerable of our society - children and animals. This story speaks to both.

it has failed? define failed. are people able to eat meat without getting sick on a consistent basis?

how do we even have a free market in the argiculture business? the whole thing is supported by subsidy after goddamn subsidy, something that is the antithesis of free market. there is more incentive to get that subsidy, NSA, than there is to improve the quality of the stock. people can't have influence over agricultural practices so long as the government pays people to keep the status quo of agriculture afloat.

@35. well, most systems have failed. the current system is evolving (ch ch ch changing) and might become something that is workable. i certainly don't think the system on whole has failed, though, as responsible people can still make responsible choices, and most irresponsible people are doing okay.

(note: i'm not tyring to promote a libertarian solution here, i just don't believe a libertarian system produced the downer cows being discussed.)

A poem:
(actually lyrics to a song I've never heard by Jonny Socko)

I like cows
But not to eat them
I like cows
I like to greet them
Cows are fun
You shouldn't put 'em on a hamburger bun
Or on the grill of your car
Or on the grill in your backyard
I like cows.

(hey)
I like cows
They don't have feathers
I like cows
But not their leathers
Cows say moo
You shouldn't turn them into paste or glue
Or put them on your dining room chair
Or cook them up 'till they're medium rare
I like cows.

(I like cows)
I like cows
They're really neat
You shouldn't turn them into Spam or treats
Or put them into little tin cans
I'm a bonefied bovine fan
I like cows

I like cows
hahahahaha
I like cows
hahahahahaha
I like cows
I like them
I like cows
I like them
I like cows
I LIKE THEM
I LIKE COWS
I LIKE THOSE
cows!

OK, the freaks have come out.

Downer cows are so few and far between to mean absolutely nothing in the numbers of slaughters per day. It isn't a good idea to butcher them, but they are so rare as to be statistically meaningless.

Cattle is a food crop. They are not pets, they are not people, they are not 1000 lb retarded children. They are a crop. I feel about as much sympathy for a properly slaughter steer as I do a corn stalk or a watermelon vine.

The reason why farms are subsidized is because ... well unless they are huge they don't make a lot of cash. It was a way that allowed simple family farmers in the 50's afford things like running water and electricity to keep up with pace to the rest of the country. It also allowed for automated machinery to come in to make life easier more practical for the "family farmer" These days the family farmer doesn't really come close to existing ...

does everyting in the school lunch program have meat and if so why havent a few vocal vegetarian parents spoken up about this? i'm sorry but you're coming at this from the perspective that there is no alternative to this one good that has some suspect production practices.

School lunches are for poor kids. Do you really think anyone in government gives a fuck about what poor people have to say?

Give me a fucking break.

@37. some libertarians say that. i think that is ridiculous; akin to saying all capitalists think there should be absolutely no unions or no laws governing commerce. those are very small views of complicated ideas.

i don't agree with rand, and what you describe is more like a benevolent anarchy.

but to reiterate: the current problem are not from libertarianism. they are capitalism with subsidies (so, erm, not really capitalism).

maxine, I think part of the reason he said that was because of where he came from and what he was doing. I honestly believe he said it to make India seem morally enlightened compared to the Brits. I find great fault with the premise that a morally evolved society treats animals better. a society that protects animals but allows wifes to be beaten, keeps people in regimented social class, doesnt seem very moral. if anything it would be one of the last things to qualify a moral society after all other things involving humans has been rectified.

Now, 1000lb retarded children; that's good eatin'!

@the ghandi references

Perhaps Ghandi was refering to the chinese treatment of animals (and people) ... oh man, they would make the staunchest meat eaters cringe

well, in india they believe animals are beings, reincarnated from other animals, or people. so, duh, gandi thought you should treat them well.

abraham lincoln: I care not for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.

keshmeshi, then why do poor people trust the government to a. make laws against downer cows b. provide lunches for their children. poor people don't HAVE to take the lunches, do they? and if they do HAVE take them why is the kid then forced to eat the meat on them.

If poor people don't have the power to influence the government then why should we be surprised at the results it yields for poor people. another government failure.

@49 ... one of the major controvercies of Abraham Lincoln is her really didn't have much respect for ANY religion at the end of the day.

46 - Can't the quote just stand on its own? I wholeheartedly agree with you on their abuses against women - but you are missing the point as well. Anyone who thinks what is on that video is ok is delusional and sick. Animals can't vote or call their congressperson.

Beef is YUMMY!

Beef. Its whats for dinner!

Kobe Beef is the best of alllllll

Ahhh Thanks. I needed that.

@53 ...

Kobe beef comes form Japan

In Japan EVERY motherfucking cow is tested for
mad cow BEFORE it is thrown on the market

Farmers that want to adhere to that standard aren't legally allowed to by the USDA because "there is no evidence that it's necessary"

Meat culture in this country is fucking insane and retarded.

yeah -- illustrating one failure of government in order promote more governmental control is as bad an idea as using one capitalist failure to promote more capitalism.

this is a small problem. when it becomes a large problem (you know, when it's not just the poor people who have to deal with it) it will be addressed by either capitalism or laws. or, we could try to take steps now within in the current system.

the answer is not no regulation any more than it is complete regulation.

@54 agree! (the insane part). it was the culture that pushed me over the edge when i decided to stop eating beef (and chicken). we are out of control!

@55 ...

Sadly, the answer is quite simple. The problem has already solved itself. Those people that want quality, safe beef, simply PAY for it by importing it from Japan or buying locally, whereas those that feel it's more important to have the diseased carcas simply don't pay and have the dollar burger from McDonalds etc. etc.

I don't feel that animals are equals to people (where are the wild cows from Denmark?) But I do feel that cattle in particular are god awful for this continent, hell western hemisphere ... they turn the grasslands to deserts, burned rainforests for grazing, and a burden to our feed stocks as far as simple grain production. The amount of meat we eat as a society is simply unsustainable ... and unless we cut back we will the privelage all togethor ...

but that is just me ...

OR Matt, eliminate the subsidies. meat becomes more expensive at face value, people eat less meat, and less people demand to eat meat. specific kinds of meat are an elastic good, there are alternatives.

and it isn't meat culture, it is simply agriculture that has this cascading effect when subsidized like it is.

Kobe beef does not solve anything. It is fatty as snot (bad analogy, sorry). And it is an extremely cruel upbringing, the cows are immobile in tiny pens, force-fed. Like veal, but longer-term.

I'm an occasional meat-eater, but more like a little bit once or twice a week. Bellevue Ave@58 nails it: cut out the bullshit subsidies, make people pay the full economic price. Beef in particular, and all meat is way too cheap, considering the massive resources and infrastructure supporting the carnivore culture.

As a vegetarian, who really doesn't give a shit that other people eat meat, it's AMAZING how so many people find that threatening (hell my boss in particular who grew up in the midwest). I can't explain that for any other reason other than "meat culture" its the same defensive hysteria people get about guns.

As for subsidies, I wish I knew more about it, but getting rid of subsidies isn't exactly the answer either. I get the impression that the "family farmers" that really need the subsidies aren't even getting them in the first place. Subsidies also keep the prices of food down or at least stable. It is perhaps an evil because farmers get paid lots of money for not even GROWING anything. That is the principle ... but like everything libertarians don't understand, it's an insurance. And insurance helps make transitions in a free market stable and managable, and of course costs money.

Bellvue Ave?

With respect to my last comment? Are you for cutting subsidies entirely? or just subsidies for beef/meat? I can get behind the latter.

@50,

If they don't have any money, then, yes, they do have to take it. If the kids are hungry, then, yes, they are going to eat everything served to them. Your ignorance is truly staggering.

Bellevue Ave is bordering on troll status, in my opinion.

@50. Poor kids don't have to eat, if they don't really want to. Poor kids should be worried enough about mad cow that they should only eat part of the free lunch provided for them at school, even if they are hungry.

@63

Contrary to what you might think, poor kids could eat long before school lunches were invented.

They had potatoes, some flour (whole wheat), cabages, a few meat scraps and some imagination.

And they didn't have the obesity epidemic that America faces!

(obviously it's not that simple ... but you get where I'm going )

OR Matt, i agree with you entirely. you can bring an inexpensive, healthy lunch from home. you can also eat at the school but choose from the beef-free selections.

but, well, you are suggesting a fundamental change. the idea at present is that school lunches are safe for children, be they rich or poor. just how safe are they? and once they become unsafe, isn't it he government's responsibility to make sure they are safe again?

that really, however, has nothing to do with the main thrust of this post. this post is about downer cows and how we can reduce the affect they have on humans (and maybe how we can treat animals a little better).

i think greater punishments for violations (enforce existing laws), and fewer subsidies (make beef cost what it actually costs, should do the trick. as a by-product, the more expensive meat that results will probably have a positive effect on american health, on the environment, and how livestock is treated.

@64. Yes, you're right. The parents (or parent) of the 25% of urban children who qualifiy for free or reduced lunches should be taking the time that they do not spend working their two jobs to grow potatoes and cabbages, so that they may make their child healthy lunches. Take your head out of your ass, please.

which, in the end, would lead to healthier school lunches!

@66

No ... Potatoes and cabbage are cheaper to buy, prepare, and FREEZE for the week than you can imagine. My head is perfectly upright thank you. Half our problems with food in this country is that the VERY BAD food is cheap, available, and prep free. Whereas if we were donating two to three more hours a week in making good food, we would be doing better for it!

@66

No ... Potatoes and cabbage are cheaper to buy, prepare, and FREEZE for the week than you can imagine. My head is perfectly upright thank you. Half our problems with food in this country is that the VERY BAD food is cheap, available, and prep free. Whereas if we were donating two to three more hours a week in making good food, we would be doing better for it! My head is fine!

most subsidies need to be cut. subsidies hurt the 3rd world because our surplus goes there thus crowding out local farmers.

keshmeshi, what can the poor really do though? id sooner force vegetarian alternatives available for school lunch and offer real choice than try to slap a bandaid on the issue of beef supply that will be broken and violated just to feel better

Ok ... I had reduced lunches growing up... I was a vegetarion when I was 16. This issue is distracting me from completing my thesis because I guess it means a lot to me.

I stopped eating school lunches because even though it was cheap, they meat in absolutely EVERYTHING!

But alas what could I possibly do without meat?

As it turns out, we did just fucking fine thank you! I ate peanut butter and jelly and/or shitty pizza most days. Besides eating lunch made swim practice harder anyways and I usually skipped it. Breakfast was easy, cheap cereal. As for dinner, pasta pasta pasta and more pasta, tofu or TVP, lima beans were frequent, it turns out they have higher protein content than factory chicken, AND THEY ARE CHEAP.

And go figure I'm 6'5'' still in awesome shape, and still eat vetarian, still budget 2-3 hours of time a week to cook my meals for an army, and work constantly.

Thesis formatting is so damn mindless anyways.

@66, show me that person and i can show them how to make a motherfucking banana and peanutbutter sandwich in 5 minutes with a side of carrot sticks and baked potato crisps.

Goddamn lazy slacker cows who just don't wanna GET UP and GET SLAUGHTERED. How are you gonna get a stubborn cow moving, without a forklift? Although I would use a bellyband to hoist them with, myself. And what happens to a cow that breaks her leg? BBQ, that's what. But if the slaughter house doesn't was the cows before cutting them up, that's just icky.

I don't see how eating beef that was raised within 100 miles is worse for the environment than eating peaches airshipped from Chile. After all, eating beef raised on a diet of grass and grain makes you a second-order vegetarian.

Furthermore ... to all you beefaholics? Are you aware of the contraversy that the FIRST case of mad cow disease in the states wasn't even a downer in the first place. It had be tested on some technicality, it got caught up on some barb wired off site, and so had to be tested for legal reasons. All of a sudden it came out positive. The guy who claimed the cow wasn't a downer in the first place was axed, and of course denial by the industry and USDA to cover the farms ass ... god bless america. I should find the reference later.

Bellevue Ave - My kids qualify for free lunch and I make them take it because that way I can spend what little money I have in my food budget on food for dinner and breakfast. I work one full-time and two part-time jobs and I still have time to make my kids breakfast before they go to school. It is bullshit to infer that someone is lazy because they don't make lunch for their kids. I make homemade organic food for my kids for both meals they eat at home. I should expect the food the Seattle Schools serve should at least be safe.

@73 ... the answer to your question is quite ironic. Beef eat grass straight to the roots, pull up the roots, leading to soil erossion and the desertification of the prairie.

Buffalo on the other hand just eat the top of the grass leaving the roots intact. At the very least we should be eating buffalo instead.

Cattle for beef is also almost entirely grain fed, which is bad for the environment, bad for their intestines and has led to the creation of antibiotic resistant e. coli strains etc. etc.

Grain also uses a lot of natural resources to produce. I used to know the numbers of how much nutrition you use to put into an animal vs. what you get out, but rest assured it isn't that assuring.

The beef industry has refused hand over fist to cut back on the grain or the use of antibiotics in feed even though it has proven to become NOT cost effective to do so.

Dirty dirty industry. If only eating a cow was so simple and innoscent like it used to be ...

maxine, stop free loading on the system. you're also not creating a net nutritional benefit for your child by giving them an organic dinner and then having them eat school lunches. you're essentially just playing a shell game with your money where you overpay for one good and then freeload for an inferior good.

tell your kids not to eat the meat.

My daughter qualified for free school lunches one year. I never let her eat them because I looked at the nutritional facts on the school district web site and discovered that eating McDonalds would be healthier and more nutritious than eating school lunches. They are laden with transfats. I had read years ago about very low quality materials making it into school lunches due to politics. AS for organic it is hard to tell anymore what is really organic. I have heard that Horizen milk is not truly organic. Both Safeway and Costco organic milks were found not to actually be organic. Marketing food stuffs as organic seems to help it sell well.
Guess we have Bush to thank for passing those measures a few years ago making it possible to sell non organic foods as organic.

Bellevue is seriously approaching ecce homo status at this point.

Maxine, don't feel so guilty about it, but be aware of what you are getting. After working in nursing home food service through high school, be aware that the MAJOR cost to food service is the labor. In order to justify the expenses, the first thing that always gets cut back is the quality of the food. If you can make it more from scratch, and stash it (my freezer is packed!) Then you save cost on labor it takes to make the item, and you get the added benifit of quality ingredients.

Just like they did it in the olden days.

And no meat is not necessarily the devil, but our attitude and lack of respect toward it can be.

Freeloading? OK. I'd like to see you say that to my, or any number of single mother's faces rather than hiding behind your dumb moniker at Slog. I know I shouldn't feed the trolls but I know my finances will change, but there are so many other hard-working people out there that deserve better than your shame.

As for free loading? I was guilty as charged ... I ate that miserable food at the nursing home kitchen when I could keep it down. If it's what you got.

Or Matt. I don't think you understand that kids can't take frozen food to school. They don't have access to refrigeration or a microwave to reheat anything.
I cook vegetarian, btw.

Do you know how much I HATED PB and J growing up? I still eat it every day now ... hell I don't even put jelly on it (I'm weird).

But it was food, it is nutritious

maxine, again, you're not freeloading in the sense that "ooooh, what a freeloading bum" but you are simply playing a shell game where you could probably afford to make your kids lunch if you didnt go balls out on dinner, and their nutritional intake would be better for it.

It must be so great to be as intelligent and well-informed as Bellevue Ave. We should all aspire to be so great.

OR Matt, you can't take Peanut Butter products into schools anymore because of so many kids with allergies. Good advice, but doesn't work today.

most subsidies need to be cut. subsidies hurt the 3rd world because our surplus goes there thus crowding out local farmers.

keshmeshi, what can the poor really do though? id sooner force vegetarian alternatives available for school lunch and offer real choice than try to slap a bandaid on the issue of beef supply that will be broken and violated just to feel better

lesson to Bellevue Ave ... unless a single mom has a serious addiction, don't EVER question their dedication to their children.

Ok ... so the overly paranoid peanut allergy that seems to get more and more hesterical every year?

Now I would be pissed off. That is total horse shit and seriously where they crossed a line!

@90, yes because in 'Merica, we have a goddamn right to give our kids peanut butter sandwiches, even if it's going to kill some other kid. Whatever happened to individual rights fer cryin' out loud?

Because just like how you learn that a stove is hot and you shouldn't touch it. If you have a peanut butter allergy, you shouldn't eat it! Unless my child isn't taking your peanut allergy child to the sandbox and shoving pb and j's down his throat, it shouldn't be a deal, right?

Hell I shouldn't even have ice cream.

On that note maybe they shouldn't have students bring in dairy products because some children are lactose intollerant!

Like that USDA would allow that.

Obviously you are not familiar with peanut allergies. Many kids who are allergic to peanuts don't have to eat them to be affected. If peanut butter is even near them, it can cause them to go into shock. This is why, when you go into schools now-a-days, some classrooms have signs outside that say something to the affect of "A child in this classroom has a peanut allergy, no nuts are allowed inside."

woah. no one wants to criticize someone who's dependent on school lunches. it's difficult out there. but just because there is another view, do not take it as a personal insult.

there is no doubt... there is 100% certainty that you can make a better lunch for your kids than what is provided as a school lunch. for anyone to suggest that is not demeaning in any way.

the next question is then what is the best way to approach school lunches. bellevue and ORMatt suggest the best fix is to find the time. you say you don't have the time. so you want other changes. i don't think either of those guys are against the other changes (though you all might disagree on what they are).

and just for the record, bellevue shows up at the thursday slog meetings, so he's not entirely hiding.

can you really not bring peanut butter sandwiches to school? is that true?

I'd wager that the cheap meat ends up in fast food burgers, and most mid- to low-end restaurant fare.
Happy eating! Oh, and BSE has a 20-30 YEAR incubation period in humans. Fun!
Wait, did you say you have alzheimers? hm.. really?

What I don't understand is why this wasn't an issue 10,15, 25, or even 50 years ago.

I can't dispute the data, I can't dispute that it's a BAD allergy. But the fact that the smell is enough to set off seems so dicy to me, something isn't right.

Even with wheat, from what I understand MOST people don't develop these allergies until later in life. I just think there might be more to the story that what anyone knows quite yet.

Yes infrequent you cannot take peanut butter products to school.
I did not say I didn't have the time to make lunches. I appreciate that you feel I am being too sensitive. I spend Thursday evenings with my children helping with homework and making dinner so no, I wouldn't know that Bellevue Ave shows up to those.

Clueless Sloggers. I hope none of you ever have to struggle. You wouldn't make it.

dude, I think the other changes need to be better alternatives to the school lunch provided. god forbid we actually have salads and fresh fruit available. i've made some pretty edible and cheap things in my dad that didnt contain meat and were nutritious and filling.

the idea that we need to make BEEF safer for the sanctity of single mothers everywhere is ridiculous. I'm tired of "think of the children" hysteria, from crappy beef in school lunches (again, they are free so why are you complaining so much?) to peanut allergies, to shackeling chimos with gps anklets.

also, would the idea of a subsidized school lunch with higher quality appeal to you? the point i'm getting at here is how is it fair to a child whose parent(s) doesnt qualify for a free school lunch that is freaking awesome? imagine the seperation was a mere 100 dollars over the limit per annum.

maxine, how about you pay 10 bucks a week and they have higher quality beef? would that appeal to you? if not then why should someone without children at all be paying to enforce a higher standard they don't benefit from?

I still eat meat. I enjoy the occasional double cheeseburger from Wendy's. I figure it this way: by the time I pull up to that drive-up window, the cow it was made from is already dead and ground, so my buying it isn't going to save that cow from anything except being bought to eat by someone else.

I like fish/seafood and turkey more than beef or chicken, but I eat some of all of them from time to time. I also eat lettuce. Where are the "salad rights" people?

maxine, you're also coming at this from the position that free school lunches are an entitlement to poor people, like they are somehow owed them for being poor.

you have to realize that the amount of people that benefit from free school lunch is so small compared to everyone who pays for free school lunches, that it smacks of entitlement to let you dictate how good the quality should be.

you probably arent going to pay much in taxes this year if any(what with 2 kids and not being able to afford lunches). i can see you paying sales tax but none of these goes to pay for school lunches.

I'd also support making free school lunches available to everyone who wants one. that way even rich parents would demand higher quality food for their little snots and you would have run off benefits from that.

and just to be clear -- i never said bellevue was nice. just that he's not really hiding.

infrequent, you know that a single mother cant go out drinking on a thursday.

Maxine,

Let the record show I grew up pretty damn poor too. We had our taco bell nights and the fact that they came in .69, .89. and 1.09 prices was a godsent! Our water wasn't turned off for a very long time because of some faulty plumbing at the end of our dead end street. After a few months of not paying, the city came, fixed the water main, and yes our water, in addition to our electricity was shut off on a number of occassions.

And when it comes to wholesome quality nutrients, such as "organic" foods, locally grown beef ... etc. etc. The cold hard facts (coming from the organic chemist mind you) is that there are too many people on this planet for EVERYONE to get wholesome organic foods. Buying organic is LUXURY, a small luxury I am willing to pay, but a luxury nonetheless. I eat shellfish and seafood on occaission simply because I am more aware of wear it comes from and I can respect that. But simply put, we need pesticides, chemicals fertilizers to feed all 6 billion of us. The nitrogen that goes into fertilzers actually comes from fossil fuels, that much that 75% of nitrogen that is fixiated for plant consumption on this planet actually is done industrially for the use of agriculture.

I'm more worried about childhood obesity, the lack of whole foods in the diet, regardless of whether they are organic or not, slightly less worried about pesticides that act as estrogen mimics, and remotely more worried about sustainability. We have 6 billion people ... we need to feed them sustainably and we need to give them something to do to that end. Of which we have been failing abysmally on both fronts. Then we can worry about the more distal problems caused by inferior school lunches, which in sll honesty seem pretty petty.

@76: Sheep crop grass all the way to the ground, not beef. The beef critters who graze all over the hills that ring the SF bay this time of year do not leave the grass the way you say.

Preserving and transporting fresh greens to kids is not easy, and energy intensive. Maybe schools should include hydroponic farms.

If peanut butter is even near them, it can cause them to go into shock.

It's god's way of thinning the herd. Nature in the wild is seldom mild.

OR Matt do you have a blog or anything?

@104 Another problem with transporting lettuce from afar was the e. coli problem in the spinich. Nobody knew where the hell it came from, and more importantly it contaminated A LOT of areas.

As I understand it ... the western half of the prairie is turning into a desert from overgrazing ... I could look it up later.

Mind you, I just don't think we should eat AS MUCH beef as we do, it's gotten to the point of absurdity.

As for hydroponic farms in the schools, I'm amused by the idea of lunch lady doris in a hair net working in the greenhouse ....

My mother is just a little to active with this shit ... some of it rubbed off I guess

dude, a greenhouse for kids would be awesome.

I'm goin' Outback tonight!

Bellevue @100. 25% of urban grade school children qualify for free or reduced lunch. 31% of rural children. So, the amount is not miniscule.

The whole idea behind subsidized food for poor children is that they can't learn if they're hungry. That the people who qualify for free lunches might not be able to feed their children anything let alone something healthy.

But, whatever. You sound like a "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps" Republican, so, nothing we say will matter anyways.

julie, seriously, letting people decide the amount of benefit when they have no cost associated to themselves is letting lunatics run the asylum.

pulling yourself up by the bootstraps requires the will of yourself and the support of family, friends, and someone that busts your chops so you stay on track. if one doesnt have that then i don't believe it is likely they will escape the situation they are seemingly stuck in.

I just think that people not doing something because it is hard and uncomfortable is a lame excuse. i understand it but it is lame.

also you didnt say anything about the compassionate part of 100. thats a shame.

Not doing something because it's hard and uncomfortable is a lame excuse I agree, but there are are plenty of other more difficult and more uncomfortable things people have to face that are more important than petty school lunches ... And even they don't do those decissions it's not your call.

Wake up people!! Why do American's if it's not in there face look the other way. The land of greed. The USDA knows this and it still happens when are we going to wake up. This happens because of the people we elect and put in office............Da!!

Dana

We (America) turn our backs because NO ONE likes liberal guilt. Least of all, people who live in the stix and don't see, experience, or get educated by the consequences of their negligence. Denial, and voting republican is the best remedy for that.

And I'm saying liberals are totally innocent to, we are very quick to point out problems, but we generally lack ingenuity to come up with meaningful short to long term solutions. We just yammer about endangered species and global warming until we gradually loose sympathetic ears. Maybe if we worked harder in school and got real degrees, became engineers and scientists, as opposed to philosphy and environmental "studies" majors we could actually come up with ingenuitive solutions for our ills.

Liberals are NOT totally innoscent ... sorry