Did you see that financial statement recently on Slog? Mars Hill is vacuuming up $130K to $150K A WEEK from its members. That could be considered over $6.7 million in gross sales annually even on the low end, and they don't even produce a quantifiable product. That's far better than even a casino, which has greater overhead.

Their wing-nut theology may be repulsive, but you can't fault their business model. It's only foolish if you're the one paying into it, 'cause someone--maybe a few key people--must be making out like bandits.

A pox on all their houses.

and it is a somewhat valid point. i mean, if all religious people are fools -- even the socially religious -- then a bethany fool is like a catholic fool is like a mars hill fool.

but if there are varying degrees of foolishness. maybe, say, one fool who believes something to themselves and harms no one and maybe does some good, verses maybe say, an other fool who subjects others to beliefs via political means.

But the point I was trying to make was that you were loaded for bear against Burgess, but he's small fry compared to Driscoll. It's like saying you hate on all things Chicago, then beating up some whiny rich kid from Hinsdale because YOU HATE CHICAGO. If Burgess is the Hinsdale kid, then Driscoll is Wicker Park, or Wacker Towers, or Soldier fkn Field.

You smacked around Burgess because he once was anti-gay and once worked for the onerous and evil CWA, but Driscoll is that right now and more. He's turning into a cult of personality with a growing international following.

Seems like you should be picking him apart with at least the same gusto.

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex/display?slug=overlake13m&date=20071213&query=overlake

if you want to call both fools, okay, but at least realize there is a vast difference in thier foolishness even by your standards...

of course, DW, can make his point here far better than i ever could.

and @7... was that to me? huh? okay... nice.

But I really felt like here's this guy, he's totally been involved with hardcore conservative stuff, he's been anti-gay before, but now he's repenting of all of this, and all you could do was just dump on him. Granted, he was running for public office, and politicians lie like dogs. But it seemed like you outright refused to give him the benefit of the doubt, or were even willing to say, "OK, but we're watching you -- Feit and Barnett will be riding your ass the next four years."

What comes to mind is Robert Byrd's history with the Klan. No matter how many times he's willing to say he regrets being part of it, there's the GOP machine, waving the bloody hood.

At some point, are *you* willing to forgive people? I mean, what's in it for anti-gay Christians to turn back from that when you're just going to be waiting with a baseball bat to beat them up for what they were?

CHURCH FINANCIAL INFORMATION/WEEKLY GIVING TRENDS				

Date	 	Budget	 	Giving	 # of Givers	Attendance

12/10/2006	$130,000 	$159,922 	705	4728

12/17/2006	$130,000 	$168,925 	543	4239

12/24/2006	$130,000 	$168,585 	584	4073

12/31/2006	$130,000 	$336,532 	621	3672

1/7/2007	$150,000 	$168,248 	618	5421

1/14/2007	$150,000 	$139,666 	513	4704

Wow. I now want to be a megachurch usher!

Hell, Richard Dawkins is singing Christmas carols and calls himself a "cultural Christian."

@14: Moorehead protested his innocence for a while, then there was this whole new stack of allegations. OCC bought out his contract and cut him loose in 1999. I have no idea where he is now.

Methinks you are just protesting because you feel inadequate in the Stranger crowd because of your religion, and that sounds like a personal problem. :-)

Uh, perhaps you missed the fact that the Strangler hated Tim Burgess so much that they endorsed the fuckah for city council and he won and stuff.

http://new.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=419111

P.S. Just replace "God" and "Jesus" with "Zeus" and/or "Poseidon" and you can see how eye-rolling crazy the religion talk sounds to sane people.

like this october 31, 1994, interview hillary clinton had with newsweek:

"Do you believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?" "Yes."

"The atoning death of Jesus?" "Yes."

"The Resurrection of Christ?" "Yes."

We talked with God, walked with God, ate, studied, and argued with God. Each night, we knelt by our beds to pray before we went to sleep... ...God was always present to us, a much-esteemed, much-addressed member of the family.

Do you know how toxic CWfA is? Do you realize what the mailings that Burgess worked on for CWfA said about me, my family, and other gays and lesbians? Probably not. But it wasn't stuff that any gay or lesbian person could easily be expected to shrug off. "Oh, gee... here's a mailer from this Tim Burgess. He's for gay marriage now -- all is forgiven!"

But we endorsed Burgess in the end -- after hammering away at him. And I probably could've prevented that, had I wanted to. Not that a denial of our endorsement would have kept Burgess from winning. Della was awful, Burgess won by a landslide. Still, Dylan, you're revealing yourself to be just another crazy-ass American Christian with a persecution complex if you think the Stranger nailed Tim Burgess to a cross over this. We gave him an entirely appropriate amount of grief -- grief that couldn't come close to the grief his work for CWfA caused gays and lesbians all over the country. And then we endorsed the motherfucker. Sheesh.

At the time, I seem to remember, what you mostly accomplished was to legitimize and give a platform to some fundie anti-Christians. In a sense that was worth while: it is enlightening to see that extremist anti-Christians are not any smarter than extremist Christians. Seems like once you slide into uncompromising fanaticism, your IQ drops fast.

There is a tinge of hubris in the idea that this little paper is in position to offer forgiveness Burgess or anybody else for their transgressions. If he is guilty of causing such grievous harm to gay people across America, it seems all the less likely that an alt weekly should decide when he is forgiven.

Isn't it enough to merely say the Stranger editorial board weighed the pros and cons and, holding their nose, and made a choice among the options at hand?

"In the end" ?!?!?!?

Oh, @28, you're just being naughty.

I was surprised you endorsed Tim. I was expecting a "no endorsement" in that race, given that Della was the worst council member we've had in a long time.

And of course I know all about the CWfA. I grew up in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, just as much a Catholic kid as you were. I went to school in Colorado and had a lot of friends from the Springs. Promise Keepers. Crusaders. Amendment 2. Married a recovering fundamentalist.

Heck, the one and only time we've met? 1996 King County Republican Convention. Also known as the day I decided I wasn't a Republican anymore.

So, yeah, I know all about Beverley LaHaye and her fear-spewing machine. And also, her husband's tortuously ponderous Left Behind series. And honestly, I apologize that the Christian church continues to turn out this crap. Some of us are trying. We really are. But we're just not loud enough. And, well, people like the loud and cartoonish. It sells ads and helps raise money for causes conservative and liberal. The nice, polite Christians who just want to live and let live? They just don't make good television.

If you really did elide Burgess' past in your endorsement out of grace, then I apologize. Let's hope he can do a better job than Della. Unfortunately, that's an awfully low standard to start from.