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RSS icon Comments on The African Killers

1

it's not "plausible denial" anymore, just plain, lame denial. and as dr. phil might say, "how's that been working for you, repugs?"

Posted by ellarosa | December 19, 2007 11:18 AM
2

OK. So if you "read the crime in that way" what the hell does it tell you?

Posted by oljb | December 19, 2007 11:19 AM
3

oops, i meant for this comment to go to the iraq war article above. weird.

Posted by ellarosa | December 19, 2007 11:20 AM
4

my head just exploded.

consider alternatives for super crazy repetitive words in a single sentence, please.

Posted by *gong* | December 19, 2007 11:27 AM
5

Like much of Charles' writing this exists as abstract or poetic truth not real truth.

If it was true, we could not morally punish the perps. Would have to let them go. No thanks.

In the moment of their acting they had a choice and the choice was to commit a crime.

Statistically most people with lack of opportunity do not do this. Maybe drug possession, but not crimes of violence.

Saying this and saying a cultural change is needed, in no way prevents us from also saying there was massive discrimination through slavery and Jim Crow, blacks couldn't benefit from the land give aways in most midwestern states, or the land colleges, or the GI bill, or other vast amounts of money showered on whites in this country, not to mention a host of other forms of institutional discrimination (like getting lynched for starting to own land down South or having a small auto repair business) ...

All this prevented accumulation of wealth or even a modest amount of wealth and the cultural values that go with that. Like earning, saving, studying, blah blah blah.

That problem -- the accumulation of the historical deficits from vast racism -- nees a solution with universal changes such as health care, education, the whole European social system which helps everyone and gives everyone the same basic level of opporutnity.
Call that solution A.

But also: these kids got to start studying, and stop offing people.
Call that solution B.

Q: Why can't both things be true?
Comment: if you go around saying solution B is not needed then politically you will never bring about solution A.

Too many white males will vote Republican. As they have been doing since 1968.

Becasue we gotta admit they are partially right:
Crime is bad and the people involved got to stop it.

Only once that is said can we get that broad working/poor/minority/middle class that's getting screwed coalition to elect someone like Edwards and move towards solution A.
And BTW

Posted by unPC w. apol. to B. Cosby | December 19, 2007 11:40 AM
6

charles, as an african immigrant, you can't suggest how to change african american culture. i am a caucasian american. i can't suggest changes.

who has validity?

Bill Cosby? no.

Chuck D?

Posted by max solomon | December 19, 2007 11:41 AM
7

I've read the last paragraph several times and I think I have it boiled down to:

"The shift that must occur is not in the culture...but in the base of that culture...that organizes the society."

or:

"The shift that must occur is not in the culture...but in the...base systems of social metabolism (the transformation of the natural world into the human world) that organizes the society."

I'm going with the first guess since the second one is a process of change and he describes the solution as "concrete".

So, I *think* he sees the solution as a shift in whatever it is that organizes society. Which would be the Man?

I think my head exploded, too. Maybe he'll re-write it with smaller words and a longer description of the solution.

Posted by Will | December 19, 2007 11:45 AM
8

@5: Either you mis-read him or I did. He didn't say that the perps shouldn't be punished. He also didn't say that a cultural change would solve the problem.

I think he said: if indeed culture is a factor in these crimes then the solution is not a change in the culture but a change in the base of culture.

He's making a point that a potential solution to a major factor in these crimes is not as simple as current thinking suggests.

Posted by Will | December 19, 2007 12:06 PM
9

@5 -- "If it was true, we could not morally punish the perps. Would have to let them go. No thanks."

Nothing Charles says says this. Even if their crime is the natural end result of a million factors, we can morally punish them for acting. Heck, we could morally punish them even if they were the last tick in a fantastic clockwork.

Charles: Can individuals change a culture? Can individuals change the base of a culture?

When Americans read this, we want to know what is required of us to enact this change. Our American-ness is our belief that all things are moved by individuals.

Posted by six shooter | December 19, 2007 12:14 PM
10

I consider myself to be above average intellegence, and while I'm sure I'm not as well-read as Charles, I am a reader. However, after reading it twice I still can't even guess what you meant by the last paragraph, Charles. Would you consider dumbing it down?

Posted by PJ | December 19, 2007 12:17 PM
11

@6 -- What does this story have to do with African American culture?

Wouldn't it be nice if crime and violence and destitution and hopelessness and bravado and rage against hope and immorality were someone else's problem.

Why hasn't Chuck D fixed this for us yet?

Posted by six shooter | December 19, 2007 12:18 PM
12

Ah, urban culture at its best. I guess they didn't have the same educational opportunities as the rest of us. Those poor thugs.

Oh, and how IS the continent of Africa doing these days? The height of culture and civilization huh!

They sure are doing a good job over there too...

Posted by ecce homo | December 19, 2007 12:49 PM
13

@11:

oh, its OUR culture's "base". every american shares the same cultural "base", no matter where they live or who they are. and we have to collectively change that base. Chuck D's individual efforts will have no more effect than Bill Cosby's or mine or yours. ethnic subcultures have no place in the discussion, because it has nothing to with that - it's all about class.

now i understand.

Posted by max solomon | December 19, 2007 1:54 PM
14

@5: Some good points, but the materialists among us would argue that you will never get your solution B, without solution A happening first....and that the lag time may well be a generation or so.

In the 70s folks talked about the development of underdevelopment in post-colonial states. That analysis works pretty well right here at home...we have developed an underclass.

Posted by gnossos | December 19, 2007 1:55 PM
15

It seems to me all Mudede is saying here is that we need to look beyond any prejudices against the individuals, their race, or their culture, and look to the greater society in which they live.

In other words, African American culture (or at least, the culture of poverty that produced these boys) should not become the target of blame. There are greater power structures at work.

It's disturbing to me that we've moved from blaming the race, to blaming the culture, without taking into account how African American culture is both a product of, and a producer of, American culture as a whole. America thrives on the backs of its poor. And as long as the rich need the poor, they will need handy scapegoats like "culture" and "race" to redirect and dilute the blame.

Posted by Irena | December 19, 2007 2:47 PM
16

Is it possible to have a crime involving African American perpetrators without someone bringing race into the picture? This crime is devastatingly simple: The assailants wanted money, so they robbed a guy who looked like he had some and decided to kill him for good measure. You are not ever going to eliminate the robbery-murder combo from society, because it's fundamental to the human psyche.

Those guys weren't thinking "We come from a culture of poverty and violence, so let's rob and murder this guy." they were thinking "Let's kill this guy and take his stuff." All you can do in a situation like this is lock the guys up for the rest of their lives.

Oh ecce homo, you racist fuck. Ya know, I've read a lot of your posts and many of them are so ignorant and offensive I have trouble believing you're actually serious. Are you suggesting that black people are inferior to white Europeans and cannot create a decent civilization?

Posted by Brandon J. | December 19, 2007 3:07 PM
17

@16 - some days he thinks that. Other days he actually calls other people racist. This is how trolling works, you see.

Posted by tsm | December 19, 2007 3:46 PM
18

"cannot create a decent civilization"

Name one.

And it isn't racist to simply state historical fact. It may suck, but just because you don't like it, doesn't mean it isn't true.

Name one "black" culture or society in the last 2000 years that has contributed to the progressive development of civilization.

I am not trying to be a prick, but can you?

Posted by ecce homo | December 19, 2007 4:16 PM
19

Tautology Watch:

"The shift that must occur is not in the culture...but in the base of that culture."

So the individual can't change the culture. No duh. But the culture still needs changing, no? Just at its base. Do cultures ever change in any other way?

Posted by Mr Me | December 19, 2007 5:49 PM
20

irena, thank you. as for ecce, according to his/her standards, japan has had no value beyond 1868. ecce you are a proper idiot, and please do not play the history game with us who really read books.

Posted by mudede | December 19, 2007 8:24 PM
21

Hey Chuck,

Since you are such a great big book reader, then you should have no problem showing me a "black" or african culture that has contributed anything substantial to the development of civilization in the last 2000 years (or even before).

How about it then, can you?

I am not attempting to say that blacks are inferior. Anyone who knows me knows that I am not a racist. However, to suggest that african culture has played even remotely as important a role in the development of society is pretty ignorant. In addition, how come 99% of the African nations are complete toilets?

Posted by ecce homo | December 19, 2007 9:24 PM
22

hey ecce, go read Europe and the People without History by Eric Wolf or The Three Worlds by Peter Worsley and then come back. Your ignorance is profoundly appalling and depressing.

For the few hundred years that Europeans were afraid of bathing, what you refer to as civilization was being kept alive in Timbuktu and Bamako.

Posted by gnossos | December 19, 2007 9:59 PM
23

I was waiting to see how long it would take for someone to trot out ole' Timbuktu...

Most of the history of civilization, as much as was left, was primarly stored in monasteries allowed to exist my those wikid moors that invaded spain. It was also contained within the bowels of the Vatican. Among other places in Europe.

Sure, Timbuktu had a advanced society 5000 years ago, "discovered" the concept of Zero, and perfected mud construction. That doesn't even remotely come close to answering the question.

Even if it did, which it doesn't, it still doesn't negate what I have stated. The exception proves the rule.

But y'all are ssssoooo booksmart and all.

Posted by ecce homo | December 20, 2007 2:07 AM
24

ecce, you say:

"I am not attempting to say that blacks are inferior. Anyone who knows me knows that I am not a racist. However, to suggest that african culture has played even remotely as important a role in the development of society is pretty ignorant. In addition, how come 99% of the African nations are complete toilets?"

YOU framed the question, ecce. If you want to prove you are not racist, I dare you to answer it yourself.

Posted by Irena | December 20, 2007 7:56 AM
25

It's disturbing to me that we've moved from blaming the race, to blaming the culture, without taking into account how African American culture is both a product of, and a producer of, American culture as a whole.

i agree with this sentiment. however, when i have said the "culture" is to blame in the past, i am not referring to "african american culture". i would be saddened for someone to thinks that what i meant.

the environment someone is raised in, sometimes unfortunately, has a great influence on those who are a part of it. this has little to nothing to do with race. but you could still define a group as a "culture" if they share similar traits.

an american sub-culture that encourages poor and less educated people to act violently exists. it is in no way synonymous with "african american" culture. it is often overlooked that the larger culture has a great influence on this sub-culture, as they interact. (also, because former white americans mistreated almost all african americans in the past, those white were responsible in part for the sub-culture they created.)


Posted by infrequent | December 20, 2007 10:05 AM

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