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Friday, December 7, 2007

Someone is Going to Get Drummed Out of the Fat Acceptance Movement…

posted by on December 7 at 9:59 AM

I’m getting torn up out there on the Fatosphere for my advice to HARD—or my readers’ advice to hard; it’s kind of hard to keep it all straight at this point—but one member-in-good-standing of the fat acceptance movement has my back:

Let’s get one thing out of the way: I sympathise with the FA movement (obviously, as evidenced by my list of links to the right), and I strongly believe in HAES—health at every size. You can’t help your body type, and if you take good care of your body, you shouldn’t be penalized by society for looking a certain way. Makes sense.

But here’s the thing: HARD’s wife is not healthy. She started out healthy (presumably), but has gained a bunch of weight, her skin is terrible, etc. His description makes it clear that she is no longer the picture of health. And he finds her repulsive. You know what? I would too…. Now, the minister says “through sickness and through health.” You’re supposed to stick with your partner even as they get old and saggy and beer-gutted and grey or bald. But if your partner suddenly turns into a total slob, you can’t force yourself to find them attractive…. So this is a pretty important tenant of Savage Love—you have a duty to your partner, and they have a duty to you. You both work together to ensure that everyone’s needs are met, and thus you keep your relationship happy and healthy. It doesn’t sound like a foreign concept to me…

So yes, this guy could be being a total douche and his poor wife has, in actuality, gained a measly twenty pounds and he’s exaggerating the rest. Or his wife could have a serious problem which is turning her into a gross slob, and in my opinion he’s well within his rights not to find her attractive anymore. So what was Dan’s actual advice to HARD?

Your wife—the weight gain, the hair growth, the moodiness, the drugs—may be clinically depressed or have some undiagnosed medical condition, both subjects you could broach without touching on the boner-killing fatso stuff. But, yeah, at 10 years together you have a right to expect that your partner will maintain some base level of attractiveness. That’s not about sexism—I expect the same from my boyfriend—it’s about respect.

Wow. How terrible.

RSS icon Comments

1

I can't believe that site exists.

Posted by Fucking fat people. | December 7, 2007 10:19 AM
2

Don't piss off the fatties, Dan. They can CRUSH you.

Posted by *giggle* | December 7, 2007 10:23 AM
3

Um, look, how do we know that hubby's description is true? Maybe she had an unhealth subpar BMI before and was a size 2 model, and now she's in the normal BMI range and wears a size 6?

Unless you have medical documentation, I think you have to realize you should limit yourself to Relationship And Sex Advice.

But, hey, that's just my read. She probably is unhealthily obese. I just don't know her or him.

Posted by Will in Seattle | December 7, 2007 10:28 AM
4

Just yesterday on the today show they were saying that by mid-century more people will die from obesity related illnesses than cancer.

So sorry it hurts your feelings to be called out on your weight but you're killing yourself.

Posted by monkey | December 7, 2007 10:31 AM
5

fatosphere. =)

Posted by SeMe | December 7, 2007 10:36 AM
6

Dan's comments to HARD are not the focus here. It is, rather, Dan's follow-up comments in which he says fatness is largely a matter of choice and that fat people sit on the couch and stuff Twinkies in their mouthes that many in the fat acceptance movement find offensive.

While one's weight is, to a limited degree, malleable by lifestyle and choices, not everyone is genetically programmed to be thin. And Dan's comments simply reinforce stereotypes about fat people that are simply not true for fat people as a group.

Fighting against what your body's natural setpoint range should be is just as futile as a gay person who tries to convince himself he is straight. This is the point that Dan, and many others here, seem to completely miss.

Posted by Anon | December 7, 2007 10:36 AM
7

I think Dan needs to apologize to all the plus-size folks he's pissed off, and send each on of them a complimentary 6-pack and x-tra large bag of potato chips. I personally won't be satisfied until I recieve mine.

Posted by Patiently Waiting | December 7, 2007 10:42 AM
8

Dan, attacking any group like you attack fat people just makes you look very small. Reading your stuff about weight is as annoying as reading stuff by anti-gay bigots.

Posted by Merlin | December 7, 2007 10:43 AM
9

I am NOT sexually attracted to fat people. I go to the gym, work out, eat relatively right ... occassionally slip on the binge drinking.

Am I not entitled to hold women to at least some level self maintence that I hold myself?

Do I also feel that people in relationships TAKE EACH OTHER FOR GRANTED TO MUCH?

Sure life is hard, sure everyone has to work a zillion hours, but if you don't to the minium to keep yourself in shape your going to be that much more miserable, and I don't really understand that kind of life.

I also feel that women have more control of their bodies than they let on. After working a number of years in a nursing home, I would watch young (hispanic mostly) women, get married, give birth, put on weight, get divorced, and the weight "magically dissappears."

Hell ... my mother, a single mother of two was an avid gym rat, which is where I picked it up, and it wasn't because she was looking for a new Daddy ... far from it ... it was SELF RESPECT. Besides, going to the gym as a family was something of a bonding thing too.

In my opinion fitness is a journy, not a destination, people may LOOK fit, but psychologically to maintain it ... you want to FEEL better. If you maintain it ... you will FEEL better no matter how old you get. I am almost turned off by women to rely to heavily on their youth to get by. Hell I never did.

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 10:44 AM
10
Fighting against what your body's natural setpoint range should be is just as futile as a gay person who tries to convince himself he is straight.

That isn't a point, dude.

Posted by Mr. Poe | December 7, 2007 10:44 AM
11

Sorry, I got stuck for about ten minutes trying to figure how a tenant has anything to do with Savage Love. Tenet. The word is tenet.

Posted by Jaime-Leigh | December 7, 2007 10:45 AM
12

"Um, look, how do we know that hubby's description is true?"

Who gives a shit?

Given that there's no indication that he's lying, I think we have to accept what he's asking at face value. Maybe his fat wife is actually dead sexy and not depressed at all. Maybe his fat wife is actually a baby giraffe that he stole from the zoo. Maybe we're all just a figment of an autistic child's imagination.

Posted by MBI | December 7, 2007 10:47 AM
13

Personally? I think Dan is as ignorant about fat as most Americans. I don't mean "Oh I need to lose 20 or 30 or 50lbs", I mean 300-400lbs+, which is the kind of fat that most people just flat don't have the genetics to become.

However. With HARD, we ain't necessarily dealing with big-time fat. Will makes a good point with #3; maybe she was thin when she met HARD because she had an eating disorder. Maybe she's been getting a healthier relationship with food, her body is becoming it's normal size, and she's moody and depressed because he's giving her shit about it. At which point she should probably start working out, yes, but she should also DTMFA.

Of course weight gain, moodiness, & hair growth could be PCOS. Could be an underactive thyroid. Could be depression. Who knows?

I agree honesty - about "What's wrong?", about "Do you realize you seem really unhappy?", etc is a good thing. Even "I don't find you attractive anymore". But - somehow - I have trouble believing that the weight is a bigger deal than the moodiness. Living with someone who's depressed isn't exactly a turn-on for most folks.

Posted by JenK | December 7, 2007 10:58 AM
14

I'm sorry, I just don't buy the line that you have to accept fat people the way they are, or that they have no control over their weight. That may be true for a small percentage of people who are genetically predisposed to be fat, but for a vast majority of fat people in the US it is simply a result of a bad diet and lack of exercise. Period. To say otherwise is purely rationalization and excuse making.

Posted by SDA in SEA | December 7, 2007 10:58 AM
15

"your body's natural set point range"
Is it natural for a short person say 5' to have a natural set point of say 200 plus pounds ? And funny thing is if there is a natural set point then it shouldn't matter how much or what you eat right? Since the body will adjust back to the natural set point range ?

Posted by goro | December 7, 2007 11:00 AM
16

I'm with SDA in SEA

As someone who used to be rail thin, and now has a large fairly large muscular frame ... I call bull shit. People do have MUCH more control over their body image than they might believe. No 6' foot woman is most likely not going to fit in a 0 (eeew). But sometimes it takes YEARS!!! There often is no quick overnight fix ...

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 11:03 AM
17

@6 and 8... wait, how is fatness at all related to gayness? Or did I miss something?

I mean I have no problem accepting that some people have different body types. However obese people can and have changed their weight through lifestyle changes. Gay people changing their sexual preference? Not happening. Obese people face real health problems in later life. Gay people, no health problems.

No, health is not always related to weight, but there is a problem when people believe their "natural setpoint range" is 300lb. Any mention of eating right (note I did not say dieting) and exercise is instantly called bigotry.

Posted by Cinders | December 7, 2007 11:07 AM
18

Right on, #12. Why are people accusing HARD of marrying a rail-thin, bulimic woman who is now a healthy weight? He said she was fat and unhealthy, and that's all we have to go on. Maybe he's lying, maybe he's not even married, maybe "he" is actually a 12 year old girl. We don't know, but advice columnists give advice based on the info they receive.

Posted by Ayarkay | December 7, 2007 11:11 AM
19

They could be aliens ...

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 11:17 AM
20

Can we all just agree that fat people are disgusting?

Posted by i think that's reasonable | December 7, 2007 11:21 AM
21

@5: fatosphere. =)

Dan's clearly too intimidated to use the correct term: blobosphere.

Posted by Olo | December 7, 2007 11:23 AM
22

Oprah is rich as shit, has a personal chef to cook her delicious healthy meals, a personal trainer, a workout room, and probably a supply of marinated chinese leopard balls for weight loss. Yet she still struggles with her weight. It's probably because she's a lazy fuck that sits on the couch eats twinkies all the time. That sloppy, unmotivated bitch.


You people are being assholes.

Posted by skweetis | December 7, 2007 11:26 AM
23

There is nothing wrong with being an asshole, or being slightly fat. There is something wrong with being super fat. It's fuckin' nasty and totally uncalled for.

Posted by fat dump | December 7, 2007 11:31 AM
24

I love the genetic argument for acceptance / tolerance.

As far as I can tell, it goes something like this:

If there were a gay gene, the rest of society wouldn't feel right discriminating against those with the gay gene. After all, they didn't choose to be gay.

If there were a fat gene, fat would be an acceptable variety of normal?

What's the logic underpinning to this argument?

Everyone should want to be normal. We shouldn't punish gay people for being gay because they can't help it? We shouldn't look down upon fat people because they'd be skinny if it weren't for those damned genes? Black people would be white if they had a choice, therefore we shouldn't discriminate against them?

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit.

We should be nice to fat people because we should be nice to people. We shouldn't discriminate against gay people based on their gayness because we shouldn't discriminate against people for reasons unrelated to their abilities.

If fat people don't get your dick hard, don't fuck 'em.

Posted by six shooter | December 7, 2007 11:34 AM
25

@22 ... Starters, none of us are saying it's easy for some people.

But why the fuck should "weight loss" be an indicator of how fit a person is. Maybe Oprah should judge herself by better standards, like a mass to strength issue. Compete in a run every once in a while try do some pull ups and then we can all see how strong of a woman she is when she grapples with us opprossive men in the octagon.

It's easier to be slimmer when you are younger and have a more active life style. My sister lost it when she was put on an IV as a child, and then guess what ... she's been progressively loosing over 20 pounds ... and yes it takes years ... and yes she has been working at least TWO jobs trying to support herself in Southern CT.

It all depends on how bad you want it.

Now ask yourself skweetis, how bad do you want it?

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 11:35 AM
26

My guess is Oprah also knows the way to the frozen desserts in her freezer. . .

Posted by Michigan Matt | December 7, 2007 11:35 AM
27

SDA in SEA @ 14 -
Wow, you don't want to accept fat people? No worries. It's perfectly legal to hire and fire based on fatness in this state. Just don't move to Michigan.

And if you meant dating? No worries. We fat chicks meet enough fat admirers that we don't have to try to convert the rest of you. Trust me.

Goro @ 15 -
No idea. I do know that every time I've lost 20 or 30 or 40bls I end up regaining it all plus 10 or 20lbs. After 10 years (total weight loss of well over 100lbs) I decided to quit dieting before I gained more.

Yes, I realize that "I decided to quit dieting before I gained more" drives most people nuts. But after a while I didn't see much difference between arguing with people who want me to lose weight again ("You don't HAVE to be fat") and arguing with people who want me to be straight ("You are attracted to both men and women, so you don't HAVE to be with women"). Both types of people just don't like me the way I am. So why should I waste my time?

Posted by JenK | December 7, 2007 11:36 AM
28

I have a thyroid problem and have been as much as 325 lbs. but ya' know what. . .? With diet and excer-size I'm at a normal weight now and have been for over 8 years now. No, it ain't easy and having the thyroid issue makes it VERY, VERY hard to lose. I can't go off of my very strict diet. It's a bitch I tell ya'. I can't eat twinkies if I liked them and wanted to. I can't eat pizza, I can't have much sugar or carbs at all. When I do I have to select carefully and watch how much. It's special to have something fattening or sugary not and everyday thing. If I want something sweet I have sugar-free jello not ding-dongs and the like. If I want crunchy and salty I have nuts or celery - not chips.
Most fat people with thyroid problem or not are fooling themselves. They's fat cuz they don't get off they ass and they stuff they face. Most of them have low esteem and self image problems but if you lose that weight you won't. I am a total different person then when I was fat. Sex drive and activity will do that for you!
I can't miss my work out either. They go hand and hand.
So I'm sorry fatties and this is from a from a former fattie it's NOT impossible to lose that weight - but yes it is very hard. You just have to stick to it and realize you can't lie to yourself about it any more.

Posted by anon | December 7, 2007 11:40 AM
29

I guess I don't understand the uproar.

I didn't get any sense that Dan was calling out all fat people. He was addressing a specific instance in which it seemed as though there was a controllable reason for the wife's weight gain. Some people are fat and perfectly healthy. But an unhealthy lifestyle can lead to fatness, too. It is too bad that a lot of not-fat folks don't recognize the former; it's just as bad that some fat people seem to be not acknowledging the latter.

Am I missing something?

Posted by jmoney | December 7, 2007 11:44 AM
30

@17 Most metaphors don't bear close examination, but there are a lot of parallels. Gays can't become straight, no matter how hard they try. But if they deny themselves pleasures and spend an innordinate amount of time and discipline focused on the singular goal, they can live a straight life so as not to offend the people who find homosexuality aesthetically disgusting.

To up the ante on the analogy one more - and probably get flamed out of existance - you could even compare fat bigotry to the bigotry against people with AIDS. Remember when people used to ask how you got it? Did you get it from a blood transfusion or did you get it because you couldn't control your disgusting desires? Maybe when they get the science figured out, fat people can carry a certificate indicating their metabolic, genetic, and socioeconomic risk factors, as well as their interests and activities. Then you can decide whether they're horrible people or not.

Posted by skweetis | December 7, 2007 11:44 AM
31

@28

Good job anon!!! And I guess that's the point. It only works because you want it. I find that people seldom change for other people, and never permenantly ... they only change for themselves.

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 11:44 AM
32
I mean I have no problem accepting that some people have different body types. However obese people can and have changed their weight through lifestyle changes. Gay people changing their sexual preference? Not happening.

Whatever. The comparison is not as offbase as you seem to think. For truly overweight people, getting down to a healthy size can be a lifelong struggle, that 95 percent of them will ultimately lose. Sound familiar? Like maybe how self-hating gay men have a lifelong struggle with overcoming their sexual orientation, a struggle they eventually lose?

Obese people face real health problems in later life. Gay people, no health problems.

Ha, ha, ha. Oh that's rich.

Posted by keshmeshi | December 7, 2007 11:49 AM
33

Right. Because fat people never work out. Fat people never watch what they eat. And every skinny person you see runs 5 miles a day and is eats a strict macrobiotic diet. Right.

I never knew so many people who post comments on SLOG were MDs, epidemiologists, biologists and geneticists...oh wait.

Posted by seriously | December 7, 2007 11:49 AM
34

dear fat people: do you eat healthy and exercise? i'd be willing to bet if you're hanging out on a fat forum, you're probably also nibbling on chips, twinkies, diet cokes etc. while you're posting shit to make your fat ass feel better. get up from the keyboard, eat a carrot and run until you pass out. eat another carrot and repeat the running thing until you're not fat anymore.

you're fat because you eat too much and don't exercise.

Posted by anon2 | December 7, 2007 11:50 AM
35

@29: Never mind. The post Dan quotes says it all perfectly.

Posted by jmoney | December 7, 2007 11:53 AM
36

Fat people do have issues with hogging all of the gravy. It's really rude when you eat the spoon and then pour the entire bowl in your mouth. I wanted some of that.

Posted by fat dump2 | December 7, 2007 11:54 AM
37

@17

I don't think MOST of us think being fat makes you a horrible person. I don't think MOST of us think ill of people who are happy being fat. I do think most of us are unattracted to fat people and feel threatened because we are SUPPOSED to be attracted to fat people. I feel that most peaple feel threatened that because we do encoutner so many fatties who call us shallow for not being sexually attracted to them.

IF I was going to draw the analogy to gay people. It's as if a gay male who sold himself as exclusively attracted to straight males ... straight males would find him somewhat threatening.

IF a fat woman is attracted to skinny, in shape men (who are attracted to skinny in shape women) ... you think she should at least place some fucking effort in making herself look good?

Or am I just a shallow conceted person taking crazy pills.

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 11:57 AM
38

You can have my gravy, @36. Except this year there wasn't any.

Posted by Will in Seattle | December 7, 2007 11:59 AM
39

anon2, how much you want to bet? Mama needs a new pair of shoes, and you are just the sucker I'm looking for.

Posted by seriously | December 7, 2007 12:01 PM
40

@31 Matt, you seem like you're coming from a good place on this, and I completely agree that most people who really gather up the determination can lose weight. I'm not suggesting sympathy for poor, helpless fat people. I'm just weirded out by the vitriol aimed at people who, in the worst case scenario, simply have different priorities in life. I pretty sure that people who are so fat they can't walk to the bathroom without gasping for air are in denial if they say they are happy with their situation, but skinny Jennifer Love Hewitt's slightly overplump ass was a big news story this week. I just expected Slog readers to be a little more progressive.

Posted by skweetis | December 7, 2007 12:05 PM
41

@30
At no point did I call you a horrible person. I just said that condoning a good diet and regular exercise should not be called bigotry. Am I wrong in assuming that the majority of overweight people have different standards of exercise and sugar/empty carbs/softdrink intake then the majority of thin people?

Posted by Cinders | December 7, 2007 12:07 PM
42

My belief is this:

a) People have the right to be at whatever weight they want. I will respect you, and I might even be friends with you.

b) I also have the right not to be attracted to people, or in my case women, who are overweight. The man in this story does as well. Even if he wanted to be attracted to his fat wife he probably couldn't make himself. (I also know for a fact that there are men out there who are attracted exclusively to overweight women. This is also their right.)

Posted by PJ | December 7, 2007 12:07 PM
43

@ 40

I thought the whole Jennifer Love Hewitt thing was absurd too ... besides I thought her ass looked fine. Hell, I didn't even think Britney looked "fat". MOST guys are surprisingly more flexible than one would think.

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 12:17 PM
44

"they can live a straight life so as not to offend the people who find homosexuality aesthetically disgusting."

Here is the analogy that doesn't work. Gays can abstain fr. sex or have sex with OPPOSITE sex but that doesn't change their DESIRE to be with someone of the same sex (and yes I have met those). If I want to be bigger or thinner there are always measures (however extreme) to do it and keep it that way. Not so with gays. So your analogy doesn't work there.

Posted by goro | December 7, 2007 12:21 PM
45

The truly weird thing is that 95% of these hugely fat women (and I do say women...practically all of these people are women) would rather have a thin boyfriend/spouse than a fat one.

Not even fat people find fat people attractive.

Posted by Raye | December 7, 2007 12:23 PM
46

Oh Jesus! He's (Dan) not attacking fat people. HARD very sensitively stated that his wife has bad gas, bad skin and is overweight. He's stated he loves his wife dearly and wants this marriage - physically, emotionally and mentally - wants to stay married to his wife, slob or no slob.

Of course he has a right to say to his wife "Honey - I'm finding myself not as sexually attracted to you as before". NOTHING in his letter stated that he wished her to be a size 2 or anorexic. He would like a wife he's mentally, emotionally and physically attracted to - it's one of those cases where 2 out of 3 is simply not good enough - and guess what EVERYONE is entitled to this. Whether you're attracted to a size 4 or a size 24.

Is HARD going to sound like a prick for telling his fat wife she's fat - yes of course - but after the hurt feelings and *hopefully* after the wife takes a step back and realizes he could've easily found someone at the gym to sleep around with - he instead was honest (a rarity in these times) and WANTS to be with her. He's not giving up on his marriage! HELLO PEOPLE - HE'S COMMUNICATING!! He isnt asking much by asking for his wife to have healthy skin, healthy disgestive movements (ie no more gas) and a healthy inner and outer prespective about herself.

This "heavy peoples right" movement is ridiculous - no one is asking that everyone be a size 2 (those that live in the real world, i'm referring to) - I myself can stand to GAIN some weight, I'm your typical twink - one cant say "I'm fat and proud and it's genetics and there's nothing i can do" - because there is, it's called running, jogging, drinking water insted of pop, snacking on veggies instead of chips and being proud of where a healthy lifestyle takes you whether it's a size 2 or 22.

HARD stated his wife DOES NOT take care of herself, nor does she seem to care that she's becoming depressed and unhealthy - hell the man should be applauded for worrying so damn much about his wife's state of health. His sex drive is lacking but from what I gathered from the article he's more concerned about his marriage not his dick.

Posted by darek | December 7, 2007 12:24 PM
47

@40: Holy shit. Why are you using that argument? I haven't seen anybody -- especially not Dan -- make any definition of "overweight" here that would include Jennifer Love Hewitt's "slightly plump" ass. The question originally called the weight "unhealthy" and I think the vast majority of people who read that were thinking something major.

Another comment I read decided that anyone who didn't want to fuck a fat person must love fucking toothpick-skinny models, and therefore deserved having their loins jabbed during sex.

I sympathize with everyone who struggles with their weight, but when they claim the world is filled with either people who will love bodies of all shapes and sizes OR anorexic-loving fat-Nazis, that just kills my sentiment.

Posted by Gloria | December 7, 2007 12:25 PM
48

I blame high fructose corn syrup, and the general utter nutritional wasteland that is modern cheap food.

Seriously, though, there weren't anywhere close to the current number of extremely extremely obese people around back just 50-100 years ago, either going by either absolute numbers /or/ percentages of the population.

That's an eyeblink in genetic time. These "genetic factors" don't just show up in people overnight. Do genetic predispositions exist in some people? Sure. Doubtless there were some really superobese people back in 1907 or 1957 too. But you can't explain the increase that way. Genetics just don't fucking /work/ that /quickly/, unless you're fruit flies or something.

That more than anything else is why I stay in the "eat better, and less" camp. If you really do have a genetic condition, sucks to be you, but most of the 'blobosphere' has just caved in rather than exercise (nyuk) the necessary willpower to make a long-term, grueling, and often wobbly change.

Posted by brent | December 7, 2007 12:30 PM
49

I loved the section on NAAFA (the North American Association of Fat Asses, or something like that) in one of Dan's old books...where he goes to the meeting and their idea of exercise is lifting their arms up into the air three whole times!

And I'll never get over the part in the book where the woman who is so fat that she can't walk says, well, she never really enjoyed walking anyway.

Fat activism is all about whining that almost no one finds people attractive when they are so fat that you can't even tell their gender. Fat activism conferences are all about eating cake and meeting fat fetishists to have sex with.

Posted by Raye | December 7, 2007 12:31 PM
50

The religion one subscribes to is, too, a choice, yet freedom from religious discrimination is a right protected by constitutional law.

Posted by Anon | December 7, 2007 12:33 PM
51

@40 Skweetis, on this point we agree. I also find the obsession with the BMI of celebrities disturbing and sick. I don't think Jennifer Love Hewitt (or even Britney) should be pasted all over every magazine because they gained a few pounds. Nor do I like the fact that most "supermodels" look like starvation victims.

Both obesity and anorexia seem to me to be cultural problems. Car culture, softdrinks, lack of sleep, and excessive working hours are real road blocks to maintaining health for many people, and so is the sexualization of only specific body types.

Posted by Cinders | December 7, 2007 12:34 PM
52

I think this is the most relevant part of the commentary that # 35 linked to:

"...I really think the 'outrage' here just happens to be that one of the issues is weight, and that gets an automatic reaction regardless of the context."

'Nuff said.

Posted by Toby | December 7, 2007 12:51 PM
53

@43 - I've always thought that straight guys more than anyone should be rooting for relaxing the cultural standard of beauty for women to an attainable level (I'm not saying fat, just attainable) because the result would be...more hot chicks! I'm into bears, so I don't really have to worry about it. I like a little chunk in my hunk.

Posted by skweetis | December 7, 2007 12:53 PM
54

I smoke so the law says I have to go outside. I can accept that. Why doesn't the law require fat people to go to the gym, stay out of the ice creme isle at the grocery store and wear cloths that fit...or cover?

Posted by jamesb | December 7, 2007 1:00 PM
55

Man, I didn't realize how assholeish you sloggers could be. And I've seen you be huge assholes before. Based on worthless little anecdotes from people you know, people you've heard of, you come to the definite conclusion that fat people are lazy and face no unfair discrimination. Idiots. I eat a reasonably healthy diet, with the occasional pizza, burger, dessert, whatever, and I exercise a little bit each day, and I'm thin. If someone else eats the same stuff I do, and exercises as much as I do, and yet is way fatter than I am, does that make me a better person than that guy? Am I less lazy, less slobbish, more responsible? Not really, I've just got faster metabolism.

For the record, I think Savage was right with his response, but the comments here are ignorant and mean-spirited. A lot of people who are fatter than you aren't doing anything wrong, so either shut the fuck up or do a little research. The woman who writes the blog that Savage links to here, even though I disagree with her stupid ex-gay ex-fat analogy and think her criticisms are way off-base, has some good literature and scientific research that could broaden your painfully narrow little minds.

Posted by Alphonse | December 7, 2007 1:03 PM
56

That site is amazing. So much complete denial and bullshit in one place.

Posted by Vasya | December 7, 2007 1:04 PM
57

@44,

Here is the analogy that doesn't work. Gays can abstain fr. sex or have sex with OPPOSITE sex but that doesn't change their DESIRE to be with someone of the same sex (and yes I have met those). If I want to be bigger or thinner there are always measures (however extreme) to do it and keep it that way. Not so with gays. So your analogy doesn't work there.

A shitload of scientific evidence has come out lately that it's virtually impossible for fat people to cut down their calories and maintain that for their entire lives. One doctor compared it to trying to run up several flights of stairs while breathing normally. You can maintain it for a time, but eventually your body will force you to start panting. You can try to eat 1200 calories a day and maintain that your entire life, but if your body is used to eating 3000 calories a day, it will eventually force you to eat more. Hell, even people who are trying to gain weight have a hard time. The body does not like those kinds of changes.

Besides, dieting and exercise doesn't change a fat person's DESIRE to take it easy and eat delicious food. So your analogy doesn't work there.

Posted by keshmeshi | December 7, 2007 1:08 PM
58

@53

If it really matters, I enjoy women with curves who shouldn't necessarily have them. Slightly willowy girls who enjoy doing their walking lunges, but there is a fit girl for every body type.

What I can't stand is being made to feel guilty for not being attracted to certain people. I think a lot of the hostility in these postings comes from guys who feel threatened that they are being coherrced into finding obese women attractive.

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 1:09 PM
59

@58 Yeah, I see that undercurrent in the thread and of course that's total bullshit. People are attracted to who they're attracted to and even if you wanted to, I don't think you can wrangle your libido into being P.C. On the other hand, I think it's worth examining which group suffers more social pressure - fat people or people who aren't attracted to fat people. While in a reasoned debate, most people attempt to be diplomatic, far more often people are hostile and hateful toward fat people. Keep that in mind the next time you're feeling oppressed.


To officially beat the analogy to death, christians probably feel attacked by Dan's posting of all of the churchy child molestors, but would Dan be doing it so diligently if they weren't constantly fucking with us?

Posted by skweetis | December 7, 2007 1:38 PM
60

@57

"...if your body is used to eating 3000 calories a day, it will eventually force you to eat more. "

Totally. I agree. I had that same problem when I tried to kick heroin. My body forced me, you know, to keep going.

Posted by MonkeyNose | December 7, 2007 1:46 PM
61

The analogies between food and drugs are way more relevant than the analogies between being gay and being fat. Addictions to both food and drugs are driven by biochemical feedback loops in the brain, and were constructed that way on purpose. Just because it's natural doesn't mean it's good. And the ability to override our natural urges is what separates us from the animals.

Posted by F | December 7, 2007 1:53 PM
62

@60,

Right, except that drug addicts can go cold turkey. In fact, that's the only way to beat an addiction. Fat people can't stop eating food, unless they want to starve to death.

Asinine analogy.

Posted by keshmeshi | December 7, 2007 2:09 PM
63

@62

You're right! My ass IS a nine (out of ten, of course, hahaha). Thanks for noticing, and right back atcha.

I can't go cold turkey either. Remember my body won't let me. That's all I'm saying, so we agree!

Posted by MonkeyNose | December 7, 2007 2:26 PM
64

Tenet! Tenet! People need to proofread.

Posted by Greg | December 7, 2007 2:43 PM
65

@63,

The heroin is keeping you nice and thin, isn't it? Good for you.

Posted by keshmeshi | December 7, 2007 2:49 PM
66

Nobody wants to be fat and for many reasons a lot of people are. There is no one reason why somebody is fat it is more complicated than one pat answer.
We are all complicated and to judge a person because they are fat is mean in my opinion.
People hate pat answers and slog spends a lot of time bashing religion for all their pat answers.

Relationships go through phases and if a person can't encourage their own lover to get into shape or look a little better maybe the reality is that their partner who has let herself go has lost interest in the relationship too.
Some couples grow fat and happy together.
There is a huge difference between gaining some pounds and being a big fat slob too.
Personally I like people for who they are and I don't care if they fat, bald or wrinkled.
I guess I'm a nerd but honestly looks are not high on my attraction list. Maybe that is because I never felt like a beauty queen and I learned not to judge by fat, thin or other physical things.
If I had always been judged on looks alone I'm afraid nobody would have liked me.

Posted by mj | December 7, 2007 2:49 PM
67

@65

"The heroin is keeping you nice and thin, isn't it?"

You'd think so, but unfortunately weight has nothing to do with anything but genetics, so I'm kind of big.

Luckily, I found someone who accepts me despite the ludicrous social stigma on overweight junkies. Society is really fucked up on this issue, and I've felt the brunt of it!

Posted by MonkeyNose | December 7, 2007 2:59 PM
68

Are all of the fat people gone yet?

Posted by i was scared | December 7, 2007 3:36 PM
69

Guys ... simply put BEING BIG ISN'T EVEN GOOD FOR YOU. I'm fully aware that because of my large body my heart is more likely to cave on me on at a younger age than most other people. It's not just the fucking fat! Wilt Chamberlain is a perfect example of that.

62 and 63 ... if you really WANTED to loose the weight ... you could and more often than not it would take a while. Who knows you could like it, you could even enjoy your new found notions of self disipline and self restraint. You could appreciate your bodies in a way some gifted skinny punks who were given slimness will never be able to.

I'm willing to bet money that 28 LOVES her body in a way most of will never be able to appreciate. I'm willing to be that she has a very strong and gratifying sense of self and a sense of accomplishment that FEELS good.

But if you feel good about being fat ... then feel good ... state that you feel good. Don't get totally defensive about. If you DON't feel good, at least try to feel better. Is that fair? It's a journy not destination.

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 3:42 PM
70

Extra Fat on a body is unnatural- Being fat is nature’s way of storing all those extra calories that it doesn't know what to do with - cuz y'all r a bunch of lazy fatties who eat too much and don't exercise... Go hang out at Harborview hospital and look at all the fat people hooked up to tubes and wheel chairs and this and that cuz they couldn't give up their 32 OZ Mountain Dew or their McDonalds or their excessive dairy and red meat AND dare I say bacon? They couldn’t give them up and now their health is forever debilitated. And guess what? It only gets worse! Fatties- if you’re gonna eat all those bad-for-you things then burn the calories off with some exercise!

Posted by Madge-YoursoakingINIT! | December 7, 2007 4:24 PM
71

@69 Matt, again, I think your attitude is pretty cool, but what if @70 said that about you? Not to mention that it's not even true (I've been a vegetarian for 20 years), it's totally dickish and for the most part societally acceptable.

Posted by skweetis | December 7, 2007 4:30 PM
72

@71 ...

not very likely ... I'm heading off to the pool. I swim about a mile and half once a week to keep toned. That and I totally get off on the endorphins (high school swimmer). When you are tune with your body, your pallet changes to where you can FEEL what your body wants. Pringles ... they seem to make you feverish and ill.

I've been a vetegarian for 11 years ... I've been splurging on mussels in recent months thinking I might want to get fish back into my diet ... but even then my pallet has changed.

And yes I do feel that @70 is being incredibly harsh. Part of the problem in America is that the shit food is incredibly cheap. Growing up poor, my mother cooked ... it was relatively bland and mostly potato/pasta/tomato based. But it's like peasent food, work food. Things like sugar cereal and soda were NEVER in the house. Now ... it's different the "tasty" foods get cheaper and cheaper, easier to consume whereas the wholesome stuff is more distant and requires preparation. I hate the fact that I eat out so much because it's got so much salt in it. My friend who raises two children on her own ... I go visit and I cook meals for her (great practice) and I freeze them because I'm shocked at how much McDonalds they ate. It's easy, it's cheap, it's across the street. And that is how America is learning to eat. Still, at some point people have to choose their own destiny.

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 4:44 PM
73

@69,

I'm not fat, dipshit. What I am is sick of hearing nonstop anti-fat nonsense. Most people who castigate fat people haven't the slightest clue what they're talking about. Add to that the fact that fat women are particularly reviled and it's a good recipe for pissing me off.

Posted by keshmeshi | December 7, 2007 4:56 PM
74

It's always a pleasure to see somebody claiming "a shitload of scientific evidence" as supporting their bullshit point of view. Of course overweight people can manage their eating and exercise to make permanent changes in their weight and adiposity. That's been amply documented in the scientific literature. That most people don't take the necessary steps, or that when they do it's not for very long, has also been amply documented. To say that it's "virtually impossible" to make permanent changes in eating and exercise behaviors is completely untrue.

Posted by Bison | December 7, 2007 4:57 PM
75

There is probably a difference between marrying someone fat and someone getting fat after the years. If someone is fat when you meet them it is unfair to ask them to change.
HOWEVER,

No matter the "genetic programming", the vast majority of people get fat from eating more calories than they expend. Just because someone has a slow metabolism doesn't give them an excuse to blame genetics.

People of prior generations had the same genetics as we do yet they were slim to some degree.

I don't buy the genetics thing, sorry. I'm a waitress, and I see what people eat. And eat, and eat...

Posted by mla | December 7, 2007 5:01 PM
76

@13:

most people just flat don't have the genetics to become

You're probably right, but once you hit a certain weight it's more difficult to lose, as many people have mentioned. The thing I hate is that apparently if you deal with some shit by eating and get to a certain weight you are sentenced in a court of public opinion to deserve every shitty, shitty thing you get thrown at you.

--

An interesting aside re: genetics & weight: I'm adopted and didn't know that I was the daughter of a husky German/Irish woman and some similarly white and husky dude until I was already much larger than my peers. I was adopted by an Italian family of small proportions and rigorously monitored about my food intake by a nutritionally-obsessed mother. I was a swimmer and struggled with my weight all at the same time; at 5'6" and 175 pounds I was the heaviest one on my team, but I still worked out with them 5 hours a day. As soon as I stopped swimming after I left home, the pounds started piling on. I helped them along, sure, but it felt so out of control to me. When I saw a picture of my biological mother I was taken aback by how stocky she was, and for the first time I felt at least like I wasn't a freak of nature.

So it's interesting to think about the genetics of it -- if I'd known what my mother's body looked like, would I have been more careful? Would I have used my free will to not play so fast and loose and indulge in pizza and booze and 2 AM fast food when my friends did? Probably. I probably would have given anything to belong in some way; I just picked the wrong way.

Posted by Kristin | December 7, 2007 5:23 PM
77

@74,

Let's see some of your scientific literature, and please leave out the law of thermodynamics. I guarantee that for every study that proves that 97 percent of fat people are just lazy slobs, there's another study proving that early childhood factors and physiology are to blame.

Posted by keshmeshi | December 7, 2007 5:24 PM
78

@72 - You're eeking closer to the point. Which is not that people are not in control of their destiny or that everyone has to find fat people attractive. It's that there are a lot of reasons why an individual is overweight, from heredity, to the culture, to different priorities in life, to bad choices, to just the law of inertia. It's that seeing someone's outside doesn't give you a fucking clue as to who they are and what they do. And to wildly spew accusations of laziness or piggishness is mean and ignorant. And the keystrokes wasted in this thread letting people know that diet and exercise are good (thanks!) should be used shouting those mean and ignorant people down and letting them know that it's not okay to treat people like that. Even fat people. Have a good swim.

Posted by skweetis | December 7, 2007 5:38 PM
79

Wah wah wah.

I'm a fatty and I think that people should be attracted to me anyway, or else they're all fatphobic!

WAH WAH WAH.

Seriously though, put down the cake and come back to reality, okay, fatty activists?

Posted by Raye | December 7, 2007 6:28 PM
80

I just finished Gina Kolata's _Rethinking Thin: The New Science of Weight Loss and the Myths & Realities of Dieting_ where she seems to have distilled a bunch of science and research into an accessible format for us non-science-y types. I found it highly informative and even discovered some things I never knew, despite having been the target audience of the diet industry for years and thinking I already knew everything it had to say to me. Fascinating stuff, from about the discovery of leptin to Ancel Keyes' nutrition/diet studies. I'd encourage anyone who's wondering about this science being referred to, on BOTH sides of the argument, to read it.

Here's the website for the book (no, I'm not shilling, I swear) with a helpful link to a Steven Colbert interview of Gina Kolata.

http://www.rethinkingthin.com/

Posted by speaking of science | December 7, 2007 7:03 PM
81

@72: I see your point. But I think another key aspect of this whole thing is that each and every person and their physiology is completely different, so that what you may experience with regard to salt or Pringles or swimming or peasant food is completely different than anyone else.

--

I also think that the reason fat people try to defend themselves so much with "science" or "gland problems" or WHATEVER excuse is that they are *called* to defend themselves so often. Everyone, from their overbearing mothers to some anonymous schmoe on the Slog, thinks that it's completely okay to overstep all personal boundaries and criticize the way they look and the way the live their lives and to demand that they change.

It can get to feeling a little desperate when you're fighting all comers and taking punches 9 of 10 times.

Posted by Kristin | December 7, 2007 7:10 PM
82

Not trying to be mean ... but maybe it's the east coast in me. Encouraging, but tough love. I'm not ridiculing, I'm just saying ... Will power is cool thing, if you choose to exercise it. Genetics ... eh ... some people have different genetics than others, fine. A Kenyan man won the marathon in the olympics in the 1970's on bare feet ... THAT is human spirit if you choose to exercise it.

It's just that kind of GENRALLY there are two people in this thread. There are people who spew throw down the fork, and people say ... you stupid fuck love me/(and some fuck me) for who I am ... Just a lot of anger and hurt.

I keep checking back because I have not seen ONE post of ONE woman or ONE man who declares that she is fat and happy. My uncle once said this with regards to his weight-quote, "As fat as your are, there is always someone fatter" What kind of fucked up logic is that? You're just going to dump your missery downhill? I've taken my fair of shit in my life and it may not have been obesity ... but the last thing I want to be is looking at myself like a fucking victim.

Posted by OR Matt | December 7, 2007 7:20 PM
83

Hopefully this thread is dead, but "fat acceptance" used to be different on the slog:
Letter to the Art Director

Posted by skweetis | December 8, 2007 3:23 AM
84

#1: Hi! I'm a fatty, have been for most of my life, except for the 8 years or so I was doing crazy amounts of exercising and eating very little.

#2: I actually now would say I eat a well-rounded (ho ho!) diet, lots of fruits and veggies but also pizza burger booze whatever. I don't have a lot of money to eat out and I think prepared meals are nasty so I do a lot of home cooking.

#3: I actually do enjoy exercising so I get an hour of cardio 5 days a week and do a half hour the other 2 days. But I'm still fat.

#4: I don't really care who finds me attractive or not. Either you dig fat chicks or you don't. I have my preferences too. No biggie. I regularly get shall we say.. "approached" so I'm not real worried about it. I especially love it when the boys approach me with a line like "Normally I'm not attracted to girls like you...(ie fat ones)" (I have heard this one on several occasions.) That's usually my cue to laugh and go home to my boyfriend.

#5: Of all my friends (mostly thin and none of whom as fat as me by the way) I am known as the "energetic and the happy one." In fact, I used to work at this place where one of my coworkers told me "At first when you started we thought no one could really that cheerful. Then we realized THAT'S ACTUALLY WHAT YOU'RE LIKE."

#6: I am actually really happy, thanks. I have no health problems and am an active, outgoing person who is happy in their own skin. In fact I love my body a lot more now that I'm fat and accepting of it than when I was "thin" (never actually was - even exercising 3 hours a day only got me to 'overweight') and wishing my tummy would go away.

My point? Fat happy women are out there. I know cuz I am one.

Have a nice day, y'all.

Posted by Cherielabombe | December 8, 2007 4:44 AM
85

See, here's the thing. I am happy. I am fat. My life rules. I just got a good degree, am about to start my dream job, I have a wonderful partner who thinks I'm the shit. I do things that I love. I read, I cook, I travel, I write, I fuck. I have most everything I could want, short of a sparkly flying pony. Apart from the asthma (which is, yeah, nothing to do with being fat), I'm very well, too.

So no, I don't want to lose weight badly enough to go on a punishing diet and spend all my spare time exercising. Even if it's possible, that doesn't mean I have to do it. I. Am. Happy. Being fat is not spoiling my life. Sometimes I enjoy being fat, most times I don't give it a thought. I don't want to lose weight. I don't care about losing weight. Decide that makes me lazy if you wish. I reckon it makes me better at prioritising than most of Western society.

Posted by Sarah | December 8, 2007 5:58 AM
86

Poor Weebot. Looks like people with gnarly gas, bad skin, and depression are angry that being hitched for ten+ years to someone who suddenly becomes one could be dismaying enough to their spouse to cause them to seek advice on how to tell the loved one sensitively.

Dan’s is also a humor column, folks. He used the chance to make a point about the gap between how women feel entitled to speak to their partners and how they expect to be spoken to.

Posted by meherenowie | December 8, 2007 6:43 AM
87

Poor Weebot. Looks like people with gnarly gas, bad skin, and depression are angry that being hitched for ten+ years to someone who suddenly becomes one could be dismaying enough to their spouse to cause them to seek advice on how to tell the loved one sensitively.

Dan’s is also a humor column, folks. He used the chance to make a point about the gap between how women feel entitled to speak to their partners and how they expect to be spoken to...which is why I'll never be a lesbian. The thing is, guys ARE tougher about hearing harsh truths.

Posted by meherenowie | December 8, 2007 7:03 AM
88

I love Dan's sense of humor and I'm married to a guy who I think is very funny but often causes uproars because of what he says.
You people at slog have said that cunt is the last terrible insult or the last surviving form of cussing.
I think a woman can handle cunt or fucking bitch much better than the F word which is FAT!
So men take a hint... If you don't want a brood of angry women ready to scratch your eyes out or have a whole blog dedicated to bashing you be careful about giving fat advice!
Perhaps a fatphobe should be careful about fat advice just a like a homophobe shouldn't give gay advice. It makes sense to me but I am going on a few hours sleep and have not slept but a few hours all week.
All you stupid people who say just stop eating, or explain how an excess of calories causes you to get to fat... DUH.... The people that give these condescending easy answers are just a bunch of idiots who have never grown past junior high.
@84 and 85... I think you are both great!

Posted by mj | December 8, 2007 8:53 AM
89

I'm baffled at the ignorance here. I really didn't have a problem with the original column. The sarcastic follow-up pissed me off, but that's cool. Isn't that part of what the column is about?

But really, the posts here are amazing. Do you really think that fat people are all couch potatoes and junk-food junkies? That's boggling.

People come in difference sizes. Some people are fat and lazy. Some are thin and lazy.

I work out four days a week and walk the other days. Eat well six days a week and splurge one day.

All my numbers - cholesterol, blood glucose, BP. resting heart rate, are excellent -- except BMI.

Now why does this subject me to such venom? I honestly don't get it.

If you don't like fat folks, fine. We are attracted to what we are attracted to. But the venom displayed here is distressing. And couching it in terms of health is amusing.

Hate fatties? Be honest about it. Don't lie about my eating habits or feign concern about health.

Be an honest bigot.

Posted by Jordan | December 8, 2007 9:16 AM
90

PS-oh, and 82?

>I keep checking back because I have not seen ONE post of ONE woman or ONE man who declares that she is fat and happy.>


I'm one. Once I discovered that eating healthy and working out were their own reward and I stopped being discouraged when I didn't become slim, everything changed. I became more physically active. I stopped obsessing about why I wasn't getting thin.

Of course, I get depressed when I read posts like many here. I get the impression some of you WANT me to be miserable because I'm 190 lbs and 5'6".

I also get the impression some of you need to believe that I eat fast food and watch TV.

Wrong on all counts.


Too damn bad.

Posted by Jordan | December 8, 2007 9:31 AM
91

Thank you 84-90 ... I guess that's all I wanted to hear or know ...

Posted by OR Matt | December 8, 2007 11:51 AM
92

Yes especially 90! Eating healthy and working are their own reward! It helped me deal with some crippling mental issues ... and still does to this day.

Posted by OR Matt | December 8, 2007 11:54 AM
93

OR Matt -

I'm glad to hear that. I am such an advocate of exercise, now. It really does help a multitude of problems.

Posted by jordan | December 8, 2007 3:35 PM
94

@90,

I think you have reached a good state.

I don't love being 45 pounds overweight. I used to be 80 pounds overweight.

I do a half marathon plus some other distance event every year. I walk because my joints won't handle jogging.

I still want to eat certain foods that aren't good for me, but for the most part I abstain. I do a lot more cooking at home and take pleasure in making those good choices.

Just don't label me a bear because I am not into that scene--even if my body shape, hair and age all fit the profile...

Posted by Mike | December 9, 2007 10:28 AM
95

Okay, so I've read all the posts here and all the posts on the F-word (blog that Dan linked to) and have made some observations about the battles that go back and forth in these forums.

(Oh, and I'm a fat girl, always have been. I am "naturally presdisposed," yes (I was very fat even as a toddler, and no my mother was not one of those moms that go on Maury Povich because they give their kid 10 lb of spaghetti and meatballs for breakfast, I ate normally thanks), and also have struggled with an eating disorder (compulsive binge eating) that has also contributed to my fatness. So I think I'm seeing both sides of the argument (choice versus lifestyle).

What strikes me the most is the presumption on the part of all the very angry men both here and over on Rachel's blog that we fatties are a devious lot out to trick you into wanting to fuck us. It's baffling to me. I am a fat woman, and know plenty of other fat women, and not a single one of us in my experience has made it her mission to somehow "convince" men that are into thin girls to somehow be into us.

If you're a thin guy who likes thin girls...well, that's great! Go and have at it! And I hope if you marry a thin girl who struggles with her weight later in life that you'll treat it sensitively and recognize that while yes, attraction is important, it is not (nor should it be) the most important element in marriage. Like, setting aside the argument I know all you crazy people will throw out there that fat is a choice--what about men who go bald? I'm not attracted to balding men, but I realie that I might marry a guy with a full head of hair who might some day go bald. Am I going to divorce him becuase I don't find baldness sexy? Who cares if it's a choice or not? It's still my partner no longer being attractive to me. But if I were to say I'd leave over that...well I think people would probably say I was a lunatic.

OR Matt--You honestly seem like a decent guy, and I'm not lumping you in with all the clearly hateful people here and over on the other blog who seem to have nothing better to do than be so *personally offended* that another human being could walk around not meeting their physical ideal at all times---but what's your point? Your posts all go on and on about all the exercise you do and how well you maintain your body. That's great for you, if it works for you, do it. And I suspect that your partner enjoys that lifestyle as well, having things in common is important. But why does it matter if not everyone chooses to live their lives the way you do? You say you don't mind if people are fat and happy, but why do you care even if they're fat and UNhappy? What's it got to do with you?

Aside from the hate-posts from people who never seemed to evolve past the eight year old kid who made it a point to actually *moo* at me every day in third grade, this is all really interesting discussion. It's amazing how riled up people get about this stuff. Sorry for rambling for so long!

Posted by Damn, people! | December 11, 2007 8:13 PM

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