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Monday, November 19, 2007

Shooting at Sugar

posted by on November 19 at 8:58 AM

Just after 1:30 AM, three people were shot inside of Capitol Hill’s Sugar nightclub.

Seattle Police Department spokesman Mark Jamieson says that a “disturbance” in the nightclub led to the shooting.

The three victims—two men and one woman—apparently did not know the shooter, who fled the scene before police arrived.

One of the male victims was shot in the abdomen and was undergoing surgery earlier this morning. The other male victim was shot in the wrist, and the woman was hit in leg.

Last March, another fight inside the nightclub ended in a shooting several blocks away.

RSS icon Comments


Ha ha, bouncer's ain't doing their jobs and making a shitty name for a club. Awesome.

Posted by seattle98104 | November 19, 2007 9:29 AM

"Nothing to see here, nothing all that interesting. It has always been this way, move on...." Typical supporter of "integration and density" on Capital Hill.

But at least it was not Purr or the Cuff.....yet....

Posted by New Deal Demoncrat | November 19, 2007 9:33 AM

Ever notice that few, if any, of these shooters are girls? Just little no-dick-wonder-boys packing lethal penile extenders. Such men. Such manhood. Shoot and run away. I'll bet if you slapped one of these boys across the face they'd shit their baggy pants like the toddlers they are.

Posted by misrule | November 19, 2007 9:38 AM

That location is doomed. Clubs/bars just don't stand a chance there.

Posted by monkey | November 19, 2007 9:40 AM

Yet another endorsement for the First Church Of Don't Bring Guns Into Bars You Fucking Idiots!

Posted by Greg | November 19, 2007 9:41 AM

I'm just asking so please, please, please no one accuse me of anything ok. Was it a hip hop night at Sugar?

Posted by Josh | November 19, 2007 9:42 AM

JOSH - it is obvious to me now that you were there. I accuse you of murder!!

oh come on, it was on all our minds. I just said it.

Now back to our regular programming!

Posted by subwlf | November 19, 2007 9:46 AM

I think all nights at Sugar are hip hop nights now.

There's this great blog, Magazine Death Pool. It's sardonic, funny and also useful. Maybe someone should make a blog about "Nightclub Death Pool", waiting to see which clubs are about to close. I'd put this one, and that one with the car on the roof on Broadway on that list...

Posted by brappy | November 19, 2007 9:50 AM

@3: Yes, we know, the overwhelming majority of violence worldwide is perpetrated by men. Street violence is not a function of dick size, but rather of age and socio-economic status.

@6: According to their web site, last night was "Sin Sunday". Not sure what music they play, but it appears that most women show up dressed like strippers.

Posted by Sean | November 19, 2007 9:56 AM

Sin Night sounds like fun, but I guess it all depends on the specific sin. That space does seem cursed, but didn't this also happen at Blu a few years back too as well as Neumos? I just don't understand why anyone would feel it necessary to take a gun in to a nightclub (well, have a gun period). A pack of Wrigley's Spearmint gum yes, a gun no. One poster slogged on here that it has to do with socioeconomics, but I fail to understand that. Guns cost money, bullets cost money, going to a club costs money, etc... The motivation would seem to be not wanting to work for something the right way and instead just taking or threatening by way of a gun (at some point).

Posted by Josh | November 19, 2007 10:08 AM


Exactly, Josh. BOYS. Immature tikes need to bring a gun to a so-called 'Sin Night'; Rich/Poor/Black/White - little boys who can't fight like real men: with words and thoughts; not weapons and fists.

Posted by misrule | November 19, 2007 10:17 AM

Wasn't Sugar supposed to be a nice, sleek, well-behaved gay bar? How'd it get to be so skeezy?

Posted by The General | November 19, 2007 10:24 AM

The trouble seems to come from clubs that focus on crappy DJ nights and meat market vibes.

Can't those fuckers stick to Kirkland?

Posted by Jeff | November 19, 2007 10:27 AM

Well someone obviously came as "Wraith", and he went all out.

I myself came as "Sloth", meaning I stayed home and went to bed early.

Posted by UNPAID BLOGGER | November 19, 2007 10:34 AM

it's time to go on a diet.

Sugar needs to go.

These people are scumbags. Sugar opened as a exclusive, trendy, gay club that was trying to make itself a modern Studio 54, (meaning, a velvet rope, and not letting in the 'uncool') The problem, of course, is that shit don't fly well in Seattle; we're way too hippy dippy for that tired shit. Sooo, they were so exclusive, no one came so the owners took the easy, sleazy way out and went hip-hoppy, which is NOT a good fit for that area. The security is also shitty, and it's not fun to walk past Sugar on a Friday/Saturday night with all the suburban trash eyeballin' the locals...

You know, having a hip hop club that caters to young, suburban kids is fine; BUT you HAVE to have top-notch security, AND it needs to fit in with the rest of the neighborhood. Sugar is a failure on both counts and it needs to go.

Posted by michael strangeways | November 19, 2007 10:46 AM

And it's also interesting, (actually, horrifying) to note, that since Sugar and Club Lagoon and the War Room all opened in the last year and a half that the number of gay bashings has drastically increased on the Hill.

Posted by michael strangeways | November 19, 2007 10:49 AM

Jeeze #12 - sugar couldnt attract a big enough crowd to remain open as a gay club... it closed up shop quite a long time ago and has been catering to the straight-not-capitol-hill crowd for quite some time now.

Posted by Paul | November 19, 2007 10:50 AM

I'd almost rather have another Red Balloon there.

Posted by The General | November 19, 2007 10:59 AM

@13: Your hatred of Kirkland is misguided. K-town has two meat markets and four good bars. The U District has about three and five, respectively.

Posted by Greg | November 19, 2007 11:04 AM

Sugar. Wasn't that Spintron, and before that, The Easy? Didn't it have a few other names as well?

The space does seem unlucky, doesn't it?

I remember back in the 80's, wasn't it a S&M bathhouse or something? No that there's anything wrong with that....

Posted by catalina vel-duray | November 19, 2007 11:10 AM

FYI: "SIN" nights on Sundays generally refer to "Service Industry Night." It's a ploy that some bars and clubs use to get business from folks that busted their asses serving drunks all weekend at other nightspots.

Although, in Sugar's case, I highly doubt the club was full of fellow bartenders and club workers, especially if it was 18+ in areas.

Besides, no good bar worker needs to go to a night that advertises itself as a "Service Industry Night." They've already got hook-ups all over town.

Posted by kerri harrop | November 19, 2007 11:20 AM

This is a fuckin' tragedy. I'm so sad by this that I have no words to even state it.

I'm mainly writing to point out that Neumos has NEVER had any gun issues. No guns have come inside and no gun violence has been attributed from one of our shows. This is the 2nd major shooting from incidents at Sugar.

Posted by Steven Severin | November 19, 2007 11:43 AM


Niggers shooting at stuff again

Posted by suprize | November 19, 2007 11:52 AM

To echo Steven @22: Neumo's, along with Havana and the War Room, are all within throwing distance of Sugar and NONE of them have had issues with guns inside their properties, or shots fired on their premises.

Why? Because they are run by folks like Steven, who care about how their businesses affect the neighborhood they make their paper in. They make sure security is a top priority. They pay attention.

All three of these spots have hosted, and continue to host, a wide variety of musical genres, including hip hop. They all attract a fair number of suburbanites on any given day of the week. They each work with a variety of outside promoters.

These things are not the problems. The problem is Sugar's apparent disregard for proper security, even after a history of violence.

The owners and operators of Sugar need to be taken to task. There has been a lot of trouble at that spot. They are not good neighbors.

Posted by kerri harrop | November 19, 2007 12:00 PM

I call BS Kerri. War Foom floods the neighborhood with gay bashing frat boy types pretty much every weekend night. Stand outside at Harvard and Pike some night at 2AM and watch the crowd come out of the War Room and pick fights with the neighborhood's residents. It happens over and over and over again. Sugar, War Room, and Club Lagoon should move down to Pioneer Square where they belong.

Posted by Tiffany | November 19, 2007 12:10 PM

@23: Fuck you, you cowardly piece of shit. Why don't you take your ass down to Rainier Valley, then say, "Hey, nigger!" to the first black person you see. I bet they'll fix you in a hurry. Of course, you won't do that, because the only place you feel courageous enough to say what you think is an anonymous blog comment on the internet. Fuck you, coward.

Posted by Greg | November 19, 2007 12:20 PM

@25: you are a broken record with your comments about the War Room. Give me some facts that back your stats and I'll listen.

"Move down to Pioneer Square where they belong." YAWN. Wake up, Tiffany. Your neighborhood is full of "frat boy types" and will continue to be even more so, once all those condos are finished.

Come up with some workable solutions to the problems, give me actual facts, and address the issue like an adult.

I know plenty of dudes that would probably be wrongly typecast as "gay bashers" by you, based strictly on their mode of dress or proximity to certain clubs. Good ol' open-minded Capitol Hill.

Posted by kerri harrop | November 19, 2007 12:40 PM

I'm calling BS on Kerri @24 too. What the hell does having good security have to do with hoodlums bringing guns in to a club? "Oh sorry, check your gun here at the door. You can have it back on your way out." What a load of crap. These clubs and Neumos is included attract a really unattractive crowd with these hip hop nights with all of their posturing and BS macho shit that they mimic from the movies, music videos, BET, etc.... Beefing up security is just about the lamest excuse anyone could possibly offer up. The lyrics in a lot of the songs played at these clubs just glorify exactly what happened at Sugar over the weekend. So when Steven Severin has the wherewithal to say something to the effect of "nothing like this has EVER happened at MY club" well guess what? He's promoting the kind of music that glorifies the behavior so stop behaving as if you're so removed from the situation. What has happened to the club scene on Cap Hill over the last several years is just embarassing and sad. When you start pandering to a bunch of hooligans just to make a buck you're no longer part of the neighborhood.

Posted by Josh | November 19, 2007 12:47 PM


It's a little naive to call anyone who packs a gun as being unable to "fight like real men", when pretty much every image of "real men" foisted by the media includes a gun.

In fact, according to the media, guns are the one of the principle means by which Americans solve their "problems", so it really shouldn't surprise anyone when someone actually takes that concept to heart.

Posted by COMTE | November 19, 2007 12:48 PM

This is so not hip-hop's fault. Cmon guys. That's simplistic and unfair.

Posted by Katelyn | November 19, 2007 12:52 PM

"Hip Hop, you don't stop" (cue scratching of record vinyl)

Seriously, was it really a surprise to any of you wannabe PC hipster losers that this happened in a black/hip hop nightclub?

I know it isn't popular to say, but why is it that no one is REALLY surprised when blacks start shooting each other. Or better yet, when white kids trying to be black shoot each other (which is actually more hilarious).

Posted by ecce homo | November 19, 2007 12:57 PM

At the Crocodile Cafe for the Black Lips show security searched me so thoroughly I was expecting him to ask me to turn my head and cough.

Was it off putting? Hell yes, but I'll take my balls getting cupped by a bouncer's cold hands before I'll take a bullet from some fucking coward with a gun.

Kerri's spot on for blaming security.

Posted by I'm a Nuclear Bomb | November 19, 2007 12:58 PM

NIG-Nogs bringin' down the neighborhood again!
I have a friend who has been in the club business for YEEEEAAAARRS! He said he will never open another club that catered to blacks and the polluted people who love them- and guess what HE IS BLACK!!!
There used to be a gay club before Sugar and before Spintron in that very location... They had African Queen (or something Afo-Centric)night every Sunday until... Ahem, the owners decided to close the night down- guess why? Fights. Fights and someone kept stealing the tip jars... Nig-Nogs they are the same weather straight or gay. Hmph!

Posted by IMAdrgQ | November 19, 2007 1:05 PM

Katelyn, you're kidding, right? Do you think this type of thing happens at say, 80's night? Or ABBA theme nights? Has anything like this ever happened at Chop Suey? I mean come on!

Posted by Josh | November 19, 2007 1:05 PM

my sister was there, she was dancing next to the woman that was shot and had to help her as she lay bleeding on the floor because security failed to do so. my sister also had to call 911 bcuz security was too busy running and screaming with the crowd. sounds to me like security should be checking more bags and doing more pat-downs.

it wasn't strictly hip-hop night, however, i do know that the crowd was 18 + ...

Posted by rachael | November 19, 2007 1:11 PM

@33: See #26. Coward.

Posted by Greg | November 19, 2007 1:20 PM

This is a security issue. End of story.

On the extracurriculars in this thread: I'm not even mad that queers hate blacks and straights and suburbanites and whatever else. Feel free.

Bottom line is you don't do yourself any favors voicing that, even anonymously and there is not going to be any of that bullshit censorship you're trying to effect. It ain't happening.

Hate a form of music, hate a race, hate a gender or sexual preference all daylong. That's your business but just so you know, blacks, straights, bad dressers, irreverent music? That shit ain't going nowhere and it's like a free peak at how you really feel when you descend en masse on a thread like this and spew all that prejudiced bullshit.

I tend to think I've had it with fratboys and religious fundies and guns and violence right along with you but boy, am I sick to death of people's objectivity and tolerence going right out the fucking window when it's their turn at the plate with what they perceive to be a well justified hatred of another group.

Anything short of a beat down or a slur, suck it up and live with it like everyone else with any kind of unique cultlural identity has to. You're proud not helpless, right? Welcome to the game bitches.

Posted by Oh yeah, Did I Mention, The Shooting Was Security Issue? | November 19, 2007 1:37 PM

Hey Greg,

It ain't cowardly to point out the truth. The truth is that popular black culture glorifies violence and crime.

Why do you think that 2/3rd of the american black population are involved with the criminal justice system?

Oh wait, thats because whitey has it out for them.

Not because a majority of violent crime is committed by blacks.

Either because of Biology or culture, blacks are more violent and ferocious. It ain't cowardly to point that out. Its cowardly to ignore it.

Posted by ecce homo | November 19, 2007 1:40 PM

SECURITY ISSUE - i agree 100%....

keep pointing the finger if it makes you happy. although, race is really beside the point. might as well blame the 18 and over crowd too for being young and dumb. *rolleyes*

Posted by rachael | November 19, 2007 1:58 PM

SECURITY ISSUE - i agree 100%....

keep pointing the finger if it makes you happy. although, race is really beside the point. might as well blame the 18 and over crowd too for being young and dumb. *rolleyes*

Posted by rachael | November 19, 2007 1:58 PM


So, the black people would "FIX" that person for calling them nigger?

That sounds EXACTLY like the type of shit the commenter is calling them niggers for.

Posted by NigNogs | November 19, 2007 1:59 PM

@37 So what is security supposed to do when they pat someone down and find a gun? If this is "just" a security issue then play it out for me. The security guard finds a gun on the guy or girl. What does the security guard then do? Does the guard "confiscate" the gun? Good luck. Does the guard hold the individual with said gun and call the police? Good luck. What exactly is the security guard/bouncer supposed to do? I'm sorry, but this is not "just" a security issue. Popular culture which includes certain types of music, dress, movies, food, religion, whatever influence certain types of behavior one of those types of which took place last night. It is of course your choice to take a stance about things however you so choose, but at least be educated about them. Your post comes off as being angry at how you feel you are perceived personally rather than how individuals view this and other unfortunate events as a whole.

Posted by Josh | November 19, 2007 2:02 PM

this is definitely a security issue. Good security is taking preventative measures to make sure situations like this do not escalate inside or in front of a club...Neumos does an incredible job of security, well planned out, specific to specific events. I witnessed first hand the fantastic job those guys do over there. People need to take this shit seriously, it is so important.

if you are going to open a nightclub, take a cue from the clubs that are successful and get your shit together security wise. Learn from the people that do it right who are right next door.

Posted by Kwab | November 19, 2007 2:26 PM


When Security finds a gun on somebody they tell them they can't come into the club. It's really as simple as that. What the fuck do you think they would do?

Tell them come on in and have a good time?

Posted by Steven Severin | November 19, 2007 2:26 PM

Nig-Nogs = the Rottweilers of human kind…

Posted by Whoah! | November 19, 2007 2:27 PM

I'm no security guard but it seems like security is supposed to do one of the following if a gun is found:

1. Bar entry into the club, keep the gun outside.
2. Call the police.
3. Establish a presence and take control of the crowd.

Security guards confiscate drugs all the time, guns should be no different. They should be trained to handle these situations, not just to check for fake IDs.

Posted by I'm a Nuclear Bomb | November 19, 2007 2:28 PM

@44 I would think that some of your bouncers take a $50 and look the other way. That's what I think. I think that you don't really give a shit as long as you make bank and nobody gets hurt. You've helped to ruin what used to a be a great area to go out bar hopping. Also, no "thug" is going to let some security guard/bouncer take his gun without some kind of fight and then what happens? Your security guard turns him/her away with that gun and your club's responsibility is over? That person is going to be pissed at being barred and out looking for some kind of fight. You just really don't get the big picture do you? Hey, it might be someone walking over by SCCC or ordering a burger at Dick's, but they didn't get shot in your club so no big deal.

Posted by Josh | November 19, 2007 2:35 PM


Why don't you stop being part of the problem and start being part of the SOLUTION!

Please.. ahem...

"pass yourself away".



Posted by IMAdrgQ | November 19, 2007 2:38 PM

You might want to learn a bit about me before making accusations. My security is not going to take $50 to risk someone's life. I don't know you and sure the fuck don't want to.

Think about what you say before putting it out in public. However, the Slog is for people to throw out whatever ignorant remarks they have.

Posted by Steven Severin | November 19, 2007 2:46 PM

despite the lack of evidence or facts it didn't take a half hour on this morning's thread for sugar to be turned into a hip hop nightclub.. a scant few hours later it became a black hip hop club - although you couldn't begin to guess that from perusing their website. not long afterwards this descends into blame - the culprit being either black people or black culture - and racial slurs..
racism is such a trip...

Posted by the original nappy headed ho | November 19, 2007 2:51 PM

wow! sugars has really changed! The fights went from 2 dudes prancing around and slapping each other, ending in a drive by pillow fight to full scale gun battles! how exciting

Posted by ... | November 19, 2007 2:54 PM

I've lived on the Hill for 12 years... loved it, and never had much cause to complain about anything. But in the last year or so, there seems to me to be this violent undertone creeping into the nightlife, that, while it existed in some areas before, was WAY more subdued.

All I can say abut Sugar is, well, that I wish it would go away. Go down there and stand in front of the Comet, then walk ten feet over to sugar. It's crazy. It used to be totally chill on that street on weekend nights, mostly just clusters of friends out smoking. Now theres an undeniable bad vibe. Sigh.

I've loved this city (and Cap Hill in particular)dearly for so long, never been one of those self-hating Seattle dwellers, but lately I feel like something's really changed around here. It kinda doesn't feel like my home anymore... in fact, if I didn't have the best job I've ever had, I'd be so moving.

It breaks my fucking heart, no joke.

Posted by Will Penguin | November 19, 2007 3:02 PM

this slog shows exactly why a large number of minority gays can't stand you prancing white fairies. Go to san fran. the whole town is full of you lily white lispng annoying types....seriously...go now

Posted by === | November 19, 2007 3:03 PM

Why isn't Dan on this thread claiming this is a consipiracy by Mayor Nickels?

Posted by David Wright | November 19, 2007 3:04 PM

to #53 AKA ===

Was you you who stole that "tip jar"?!
(see # 33)
Oh no you Dih-Uhh!!

Posted by Lil'Boy Blue | November 19, 2007 3:13 PM

will @ 52
i have lived and loved this city for decades as well. this is the first time and place i've heard the term nig-nog used.
heartbreaking indeed

Posted by the original nappy headed ho | November 19, 2007 3:22 PM

A couple of quick thoughts here in between the expressions of hatred...

1) Hip Hop is the predominant popular cultural trend of America. All of, white, yellow and brown. If Hip Hop is associated with guns and violence...with sexual promiscuity and the consumption of illicit substances...THAT'S BECAUSE AMERICA IS OBSESSED WITH ALL OF THOSE THINGS.

The sooner people stop thinking of violence as "their" problem and "why can't they just stop" and accepting it as "our" problem and figuring out what to do to solve it, the quicker we get to some workable, viable answers...and the less time we waste just pushing the problem around...

Which brings me to my second thought...

2) Remind me, how exactly did the closing of Tabella* make people safer?

My point has always been that you don't solve this problem by simply shutting down a popular club. You either make the problem worse by forcing more and more people into fewer and fewer establishments, thus creating a situation that invites explosive reactions...OR, you end up simply moving the problem from one location to another location--leading to an endless game of Club Closing Whack-a-Mole.

3) Why would someone bring a gun to a club? One of the major reasons would have to be because they don't feel safe and they foolishly think that a gun helps them feel safe.

THAT'S why security is important. If you present a club where it is obvious and demonstrable that no shit will be tolerated, that no one is going to get in while strapped, that the club itself doesn't feel sketchy and dangerous inside, that scenarios that do arise--say, like stupid beef over spilled drinks or people bumping into each other--get handled quickly and professionally...that goes a LONG way to making everyone feel safe and to make everyone value the club experience within...

BUT, even with all of the precautions in the world and the best available security...this is an industry that thrives on alcohol and emotion--and stupid shit might happen. That's when HOW you deal with stupid shit is important--and if the city has made it clear that if you call for police assistance that it will count as a negative mark against your club staying open, RATHER THAN AS PART OF THE BASIC FUNCTION OF THEIR PUBLIC OBLIGATION much less encouraging responsible teamwork between business owners and the police...then a little stupid shit turns into majorly stupid shit and people die.

Simply put. People, ALL PEOPLE, will want to find entertainment...they will go to get their dance on, get their drink on and get their chances for love on.

You can't stop 'em, you can only hope to contain 'em.

As long as what they want to do is legal, you do that best by figuring out "how do we make it safe for people to do what they want to do" not "how do we stop them for trying to do what they want to do."

pg--veteran of many club wars

PS--(*)--from above, I know that Tabella was not shut down as much as it was bought out and repurposed...but we had this same conversation about how it "needed to be shut down" and I made the same argument that shutting it down won't solve the problem, it'll just move it.

It seems to have done that.

PPS--Sorry for the interruption. Now, then...some of you were hating?

Posted by pgreyy | November 19, 2007 3:33 PM

@ 42.

Talk about missing the point.

Severin already answered your question but I repeat. Hate all you want. Qualify your hate with whatever facts are at your disposal, I don't need to point out how countless other groups throughout history have felt threatened enough to do that at their own peril. You wanna play for the losing team, knock yourself out.

There's no fucking way this nanny shit is going any further than a protest march or some internet whining. Covet the realization of your narrow views' utopia all day long. At ends at the end of your turned up nose, bigot.

You're not getting it. We share these streets, these clubs. Steer clear of the ones with blacks and straights or whatever it is that's wrecking your comfort zone, Nancy. Better yet, join the fucking club and stop trying to oppress with what yopu hope is majority rule.

God damn, I can't believe people some times. Today, I'm particularly aghast at members of a culturally oppressed group needing a fucking picture drawn for them about why they should'nt desire to oppress.

The sooner you can draw the line at it being a security issue the sooner you can shed your fear spawned need to control arts, entertainment and lifestyle in the interest of actualizing a utopia that works best for you and not so well for "the not yous".

Posted by Oh ,Yeah, Did I Mention It's a Security Issue? | November 19, 2007 3:52 PM

pgreyy @ #57

Speaking the truth is not "hating" (or whatever E-bonic word bastardization of the English language you meant to use).
It becomes "hating" to you when the truth hits a little too close to home...

Posted by Muahahahahah | November 19, 2007 3:58 PM

Actually, Muahahahahah, I was using "hating" in a non-colloquial way.

People are actually expressing their inner hate in this thread--and that's both sad and stupid.

As far as "the truth hits a little too close to home"--I can't even imagine what you intended to mean by that.

Posted by pgreyy | November 19, 2007 4:06 PM

Geez...I'm reading the same old comments as the last shooting...or the one before...or the one before...or the next one. The solution to this problem is not going to come from the smart folks on this board. We're too nice. Solving this one is going to require some tough and unpopular measures.
So, who's going to get shot at next month? Your friend? Your kid? Whack-a-mole my ass.

Posted by bill | November 19, 2007 4:36 PM

Indeed Bill, which is why I'm forwarding legislation to the City Council outlawing black people within the corporate limits of the City of Seattle.

Posted by Greg Nickkkels | November 19, 2007 4:45 PM

i heard it was an undercover sting -- mayor/cops showing how easy it is to sneak a gun into a club and shoot people

Posted by undacova | November 19, 2007 5:03 PM

Bill @ 61.

Do you happen to work for the Bush Administration?

Let's not listen to the smart people who know what they're talking about, let's just go in and blow up some shit--that'll show 'em.

The reason that shootings continue to occur is because the problems aren't being solved simply by moving the problems from one location to the next and by making isolating the clubs from the resources available that should be helping them to be as safe as they can be...

But if you want to start waterboarding everyone who wants to go out, dance, drink and try to get laid...and carpet bomb the club if that's going to help solve anything...there's sure to be a job for you in the future Guiliani cabinet.

I'm stretching the analogy a bit thin, I understand...but the current War in Iraq is both an example of "getting tough" and it is certainly "unpopular."

Remind me again what problems are being solved there?

Oh, that's's actually CAUSING more problems...

As would a knee-jerk reactionary effort to shut down every club that plays hip hop. Especially one that does so one club at a time...

Call it Iraq-a-Mole, if you will.

Posted by pgreyy | November 19, 2007 5:04 PM

I hate to say it, but I think the only way to stop all the violence is for Sugar to go back to being gay, and for us to all be gay. It doesn't make me happy, either, but it's time for radical solutions.

Posted by hate to say it | November 19, 2007 5:05 PM

@62 Thanks for calling me a racist. I hope you go to Sugar's next week.

Posted by Bill | November 19, 2007 5:14 PM

@64 unbelieveable how my comment makes you think I am in the "Bush administration." The bias in the Slog is blinding so many of you. Rather than consider options, you JUMP on me for suggesting an alternate approach to a serious public safety issue. I said "tough and unpopular measures." And you are using terms like "waterboarding" and "carpet bombing???" Wow, someone did NOT get laid this morning (month?). If it matters here (and it doesn't, but it seems to matter to you) I have been very vocally opposed to the Iraq national nightmare from well before Day 1. Sorry, but your little dream vision of me is SO far off the mark.

You actually used the term "knee-jerk reactionary?" Do you know what reactionary means? Because you are pretty much personifying the term by going all kung-fu on me for simply stating that we all need to be looking together at a wider range of solutions with these tragic yet predicatable shootings.

Posted by bill | November 19, 2007 5:54 PM
Why would someone bring a gun to a club? One of the major reasons would have to be because they don't feel safe and they foolishly think that a gun helps them feel safe.

Oh come on. That's why people have guns in their home. Someone who brings a gun to a club does it to feel powerful, to feel like he can take action (i.e. kill someone) when he gets pissed off.

Posted by keshmeshi | November 19, 2007 6:02 PM

Two replies.

1) To Bill @67,

It is called "exaggeration for effect", Bill...and it's a pretty standard form for a discussion reply to take.

I was trying to draw a parallel between your saying "the solution to this problem isn't going to come from the smart people on this board" (and, I should note, I recognized but chose to ignore the sarcasm there) and the unfortunate tendency of the current national leadership in blithely ignoring the advice of knowledgeable people in pursuit of their own path--seemingly without regard to the results of their actions.

I am under no delusion that you are actually a member of the Bush Administration--it was just a way to illustrate the parallel I was trying to draw.

Similarly, my comments about waterboarding and carpet bombing were not meant to be taken literally--they were a way to suggest, by exaggeration of an analogous example to the extreme, that a "ignore suggestions and just get tough" approach has failed us in the past.

I could have made the same point by saying that just saying "Close 'em" is similar to those who cried out "Nuke 'em" after 9/11. Probably would have been a more cohesive example, but one's edit is always sharper than one's first draft.

And yes, I used the term "knee-jerk reactionary effort" and I stand by it.

Sorry if you felt I went all kung fu on you in responding to you--but a truly wise man might point out that the failure of my response to you to either accurately convey my thoughts on the matter or to convince you that my position is more valid than yours is, in itself, proof positive that a "knee jerk reactionary effort" is ineffective and ill advised.

Not everything is as shallow as the pool you're swimming in.

Bottom line--before dismissing the suggestions from the "smart people" and advocating some undefined "get tough" approach (...and wasn't the city ALREADY in their "Get Tough on Club Violence" pose?), maybe some of these suggestions ought to be considered?

Either that or we just assure the UN that we've got the evidence about WMDs in the basement of Tiki Bob's.

2) To Keshmeshi @68,

I didn't say that "a sense of personal safety" was the only reason for someone to be stupid enough to carry a gun to a club, I merely said it was one of the major reasons.

And, I could turn around both of your examples of other reasons for carrying a gun and describe them, actually, as manifestations of the desire for personal safety--i.e., the sense of feeling powerful is the inversion of the sense of feeling powerless and the ability to take action is the inversion of the inability to do so...

However ill-formed the opinion that carrying a gun makes you feel safer may be, it is, I believe, the root emotion driving most people who do so to do so--and denying that root emotion comes dangerously close to dehumanizing those whose behavior may not be what you wish it to be, but yet it is entirely and imperfectly human.

There is a pathology to saying things like Terrorists kill people for no other reason than they hate freedom. or Thugs kill people for no other reason than they want to.

Saying things like that is easy and it makes a good sound bite. But giving in to thoughts like that make it very easy to accept impatient directives to simply "get tough" and "do something" without figuring out what process might actually fix what's wrong...or without considering what might actually happen if you "get tough" and "do something."

Real solutions aren't always easy or instantaneous or perfect--because people aren't always any of those things.

Posted by pgreyy | November 19, 2007 7:19 PM


I don't buy that it's even a major reason. Despite the hysteria over club violence, clubs in this city, and the city itself, are very safe. A person who carries a gun into a club is seeking out trouble and seeking out violence, not trying to protect himself from it.

Posted by keshmeshi | November 19, 2007 7:47 PM

There is no constitutional right to have hip-hop clubs in your city, ergo, if you all keep shooting each other at hip-hip nights in your city, soon your city will have no more hip-hop nights. That's what Nickels is moving towards, and that's what's going to happen. In five years, it's going to be such a prohibitive pain-in-the-ass to have even a hip-hop night that there will simply not be any. Don't thank me, thank fiddy cint.

Posted by croydonfacelift | November 19, 2007 9:23 PM

Alright gang, so let's recap!

Solution 1: Capitol Hill must be cleansed of straights and blacks (by someone else, because violence is for straights and blacks).

Solution 2: We'll regulate the kind of events approved for Capitol Hill and let market forces decide where the blacks and the straights land (Pioneer Sq and Bell Town seem to be potential locations).

Solution 3: Clubs will hire dilligent, vigilant , professional security staffs and the Police will start being accountable for enforcing existing laws already on the books and concerning themselves with more than parking and traffic.

Seattle is seen as one of the safest cities in the States, which I think it is. Still, that can change.

Los Angeles is a 13 million person suburb with one of the most violent and corrupt reputations in the U.S. It has a police force of 15,000. (One officer to every 867 citizens). One of the most grossly understaffed departments anywhere. SPD serves a city of 560,000 with a force of 1200. That's about 1 officer to every 469 citizens. In Los Angeles, a city that is stretched much thinner than Seattle's I've seen a much more prominent police presence and pound for pound far more effective in that nobody in their right mind is gonna fuck around. There are shootings but in a club like Sugar? That's brazen. It wouldn't happen.

I don't know of anyone in this town who takes the cops seriously. Sleepy towns breed stupid, lazy cops. Compound that with your continual influx of much more sophisticated criminals from Chicago and Los Angeles and this place is on it's way to full blown colonization (again) and the bureaucrats and lazy cops are not going to have any fucking viable solutions. You'd better start coming up with some more thought out solutions than temper tantrums about eliminating the wrong kind of race and the wrong kind of music. Aside from being unAmerican, it's just stupid saying shit like that.

You get another sweeping exodus of big corporations, a dissinterested police force, a dullard mayor with no vision beyond spreading contracts among his frat buddies and you're looking at the next Baltimore or Detroit. It's gonna suck. Sell now and leave or hunker down and get a grip on some better ideas if this shit is so goddamned important to you. Crying, "It's the nig nogs and hip hop" is just not gonna float. It's not an answer. I can't believe anyone needs that pointed out.

And if your soulutions are gonna be funded on The City's dime, you're gonna have to get over alot of this provencial bullshit and come together as a city too. This is literally the stupidest city I've ever seen and I was sold on it being an intellectual mecca. Whatever, I love it, it's home but goddamn I see some people just experimenting with a life beyond logic here. Some real prized thinkers making their bones here alright.Whooowheeee!

Posted by Game Over | November 19, 2007 9:58 PM

@ 71

Bill Of Rights

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

As long as there is a buck to be made off of hiphop, that's how long it will be around.

If you hate it so much, get busy making it too expensive and too much trouble. Thee's no law constitutional law that can be made against it.

You know this already and you're baiting so let's have it...

Posted by Duh | November 19, 2007 10:07 PM

Firstly,I live across the street from Sugar and its never struck me as being a black club. The patrons seem to be primarily of the asian and trashy white variety.

Secondly, I don't think it has anything to do with it being a hip-hop club. It has to do with it attracting an element into a neighborhood in which it doesn't belong. If it were a bunch of rednecks trashing the block (i.e. rolling dumpsters into the street, ripping apart the trash and recycleing bins, and otherwise being douche bags)I would hate them just as much.

Thirdly, I don't give a fuck if a bunch of suburban idiots want to shoot each other. I would just prefer them to stay in their own neighborhoods rather than come to mine with misguided preconceived notions about the city that would lead them to bring a gun to a club in the first place.

Posted by justin | November 19, 2007 10:19 PM

@69 thanks for the reply. Honestly. But please note that my comment about the "smart people" on this board was meant literally. You assumed it was sarcastic and it flat out wasn't. It is obvious that most of the comments here are written by pretty smart people. Who is to argue that?
What I said was that this issue is not really being addressed by this particular group of smart people. We see the same exchange every time there is a club shooting. Painful to say...but yeah, EVERY time. And my opinion is that we all need to look at some alternative approaches here. It's juvenile to say that we should ban streets, or ban banks, or convenience stores. Those places don't attract a pattern of violence. These very few clubs do. They attract a violent element. White, Black, Asian, Straight, suburban, whatever...why should I care. Does a bullet care? Hey, let's make a wager that there will be a shooting again in the next month or two at one of these places on a night when they are doing a mixed 21+ and 18+ "exotica" or "platinum" nite. It is completely predictable. So, why should we stand for it? Do you have one in your neighborhood? One where you might be in harm's way?
I repeat, the vast majority of clubs are issues. Some of you sound like the gun lobby. You claim that one affront to the precious institution of the nightclub will lead to the downfall of every god given freedom. Well, you are wrong. We want balance. Yes guns, but no bazookas, ok? And yes clubs, but no clubs where gun violence is a pattern, ok? It is our right as a society to regulate protected activities. So, let's be smart about this. Let's do something about this. Let's not be bullied by some "nightclub lobby" like we are by the gun lobby. Let's come down on bad clubs so that everyone can enjoy all the great clubs out there. I may be the only one here of this opinion. If so, thanks for hearing me out. And stay safe.

Posted by bill | November 19, 2007 11:19 PM

Hey Bill,

The thing is...though the same solutions are mentioned every time, until they're actually attempted and shown to have either worked or not worked, there's no point in suggesting still further alternative approaches (especially when THOSE approaches won't be acted on, either...)

It's the classic "Something is wrong and, shockingly, not doing anything about it isn't fixing the problem" scenario.

I think that it's clear that the city's continuing plan to try to shut down "problem clubs" is not working--as new "problem clubs" keep opening up. Club violence didn't end when they shut down Celebrity Italian Kitchen...or Jersey's...or Larry's...or Mr. Lucky's...or with the closing of Tabella.

In fact, I believe that is has been the city's continuing efforts to make it difficult for clubs that cater to fans of the predominantly popular music in this area that exacerbates the problem--by forcing too many people into too little space.

...and then, they basically abandon the clubs that DO attempt to serve that market by making it very difficult to count on the services demanded by all citizens--that government and the law enforcement arm of that government shall uphold the law and protect the citizenry from their legal pursuing of happiness...and not force club owners and club goers to play a dangerous game of "Hope nobody dies because we'll get shut down if we were to call 911"-chicken.

If city leaders and law enforcement looked at this problem as a tragedy instead of an annoyance...if they came to the nightlife industry earnestly wanting to help make things better...and if collectively they could agree on how to properly train and staff the security of a club, how to interface club staff with local law enforcement to cohesively handle problems together rather than as adversaries, and to leave the social engineering of "if you don't play that kind of music, you don't inspire people to live that way" out and allow the marketplace to determine what entertainment options a club might want to offer--then we're all on the way to solving the problem.

And THEN, when clubs aren't isolated and abandoned by local law enforcement, THEN they can simply enforce the laws that are on the books currently to enforce compliance--and if a club ignores guidelines and good business practices for properly maintaining the safety of their patrons, does a shitty job of training and staffing their security personnel, and generally doesn't give a shit...then, I have no problem with them incurring the consequences. A better run and safer club will take its place.

But that's not the situation here--and, this is my main point... Take a look at the bigger picture and you'll recognize that the problem doesn't actually start with the club violence...and that's why other solutions fail. Club violence is a problem, but it's truly just a symptom of the real problem...and to solve the problem, you need to not only treat the symptom but also attack the cause.

The problem starts with artificial restraint of trade and the failure of local government to live up to its obligations. Until you address those issues, you're playing Whack-a-Mole.

But, if you've addressed the issues with artificial restraint of trade and you've re-imagined the role of local government and law enforcement in their dealings with nightlife--you can then work on the symptoms.

Imagine there's a city with as many clubs of the types of music that the people of this city want to enjoy, without being coerced into not opening what people want... Imagine then, there's a partnership to help keep those who are intent on illegal activities and on ruining everyone else's good time out of the clubs. And, with that partnership in place and the artificial restraints eased--THEN, if there are still clubs where laws are broken and the public safety is jeopardized...then all that needs to happen is to enforce the laws that are already on the books.

Well, we can dream, can't we?

Because what will happen is nothing...or, worse, what will be done just increases the likelihood and severity of further future problems.

...until there's only one man who might clean up the clubs of this town.

The Dalton.

Posted by pgreyy | November 20, 2007 12:06 AM

Good-bye, Sugar. Look for Mars Hill to open its Capitol Hill location here soon.

Posted by Mahtli69 | November 20, 2007 12:12 AM

and here i thought they were just bad tippers...

Posted by out of work bartender | November 20, 2007 8:12 AM

This kind of thing NEVER happens at the Gay clubs. Damn! Too much testosterone

Posted by Gary | November 20, 2007 11:32 AM
80's U-G-L-Y on here!!

hey, dum-dums; Sugar isn't a very 'black' club...i've never been in there, but i've walked past there, A LOT, and the club clientle waiting to get in seems to be more Asian/Latin/White than Black...

if you're going to be hatin' then at least get it straight WHO youre hatin' on...


Posted by michael strangeways | November 20, 2007 11:35 AM

@76 Well reasoned response.
I really do agree that addressing symptoms alone is not likely to provide an effective long-term solution. You present a case for something that looks like a cure. But it implies a revisioning of local government. It is indeed a nice dream, but it's not a dream that will come true any time soon. I would rather address the symptoms of a problem WHILE working on that elusive cure.
If Sugar is closing, then that's good. Will the problem move? Probably. But not until someone else steps up and decides they want to appeal to this same hood mentality. Then maybe some day, no one will want to do so due to the likelihood of being closed down. But today for everyone who lives near Sugar, I bet they are pretty damn glad to know that their neighborhood just got a bit safer.

Posted by Bill | November 20, 2007 12:07 PM

ok. all of these clubs cater to Neanderthal, provincial morons. breed on mtv and a vast sense of entitlement. clubs build nights for them and placate them with alcohol and them send them out in the streets to wreck havoc and fuck with people (and not the kind of that is fun). it's not just bashings and shootings - they are just unpleasant and should fuck off to where they might be more comfortable like the 1950's or something...

I question bars and building owners doing this for what seems like profit or altering of a neighborhood they profess to love, but what do i know... i tried looking for the city plot, but i tripped over that damn leopard, in the basement without the light and knocked myself unconscious.

Things are dodgy on the hill, has been for a while. it'll get better. condos will come, they'll complain about the noise and tell us to get out of their driveways.


Posted by cbangs | November 20, 2007 1:26 PM

@80 I agree. I hardly see any blacks lining up to go into Sugar, unless they are able to change color once they get in. Asians mostly.

Posted by BGuy | November 22, 2007 1:20 AM

To the Owners of Neumos,

Why do you attack the professionalism of Sugar? On several occasions this summer when I was showing up for work at Sugar, I saw your security behind the Shell gas station alleyway. What where they doing behind there you may ask. Well, they were smoking pot before starting work and protecting your club. True, you have been lucky so far that there hasn’t been a major issue there. But don’t fool yourself, it isn't due to your attentiveness to the safety of your club. Just thought you might want to know.

Posted by Panacea7 | November 22, 2007 11:37 AM

Whatever happened to embracing a neighborhood with a diverse people and diverse needs? I thought that is what separated Capitol Hill from the rest of Seattle. You sound so hypocritical and ignorant when you judge people on the way they look. True, the nightclub attracted more blacks and Asians to the neighborhood, but they were not a bunch of gang bangers.
The clientele was representative of the entire city demographic.
Besides, who are you to judge who the right people are for the neighborhood?
Capital Hill should not be some private gay utopia for hipsters and individualist.
If you want it that way, buy a private island somewhere.

Don’t get me wrong, the fact that a shooting occurred there sucks, be we live in a city and shitty things sometime happen.
I have been employed as a bartender at Sugar since it opened. When nights got rowdy, specifically our latest Thursday Promotion, we expressed our concerns to George and the management. It was our suggestion that he should enforce a stricter dress code and fire the individual promoters that were responsible for bringing the wrong element into the club. Instead, George went a step further and canceled the entire Thursday night promotion. This decision probably caused him a substantial financial loss but he felt that the safety of the club should not be jeopardized.

Following several violent shooting incidents at other Seattle nightclubs, George contracted with SARKA. “SARKA is a professional security organization that utilizes a multi-national network of Subject Matter Experts (ItSME) whose combined experience and education offers the most up-to-date security expertise for High Risk Environments and other sensitive operations.” ( SARKA has served provided security at Sugar Nightclub since August, 2007. Since the shooting on Sunday Night, SARKA has not returned any of George’s phone calls or emails.

Your obsession with the location of this tragedy is ridiculous.
But we do need to blame somebody for this tragedy.
Let’s blame hip hop. Let’s blame the parents of the shooter. Let’s blame the gun manufacturer. Let’s blame violent video games and movies. Let’s blame the police for failing to catch him sooner.

On second thought, maybe we should just blame the “waste of life” that decided to shoot three people in a crowded nightclub.

Posted by Panacea7 | November 22, 2007 11:39 AM

Here is the website address again for the contracted “security specialist” at Sugar. Maybe the journalist at The Stranger will do their due diligence and actually do the investigative work that has been neglected by the other news sources.

Posted by Panacea7 | November 22, 2007 11:41 AM

I am going to open up a gay bar in the C.D area. And then I am going to wonder why the clientle are getting beaten and killed.

Posted by Drew | November 24, 2007 5:21 PM

The shooting of three innocent people was an utter tragedy - I have it from one of the detectives who processed the scene that the most severely injured victim was a good kid and NOT gang affiliated.
I also know that the policy that night was to search men only, women were not searched bodily but all bags were screened. In retrospect a different, stricter policy should have been in force. Hind sight is 20-20.

The door staff that night (and the crew generally which had gelled well after a large recent turnover) were not crooked and were not corrupt; they took no bribes, they didn't look the other way on any attempts to bring weapons in and the searches that were carried out under the (male-only and bags) policy were done professionally and thoroughly. The SPD were informed (by witnesses pointed out by security) of the shooter's identity almost immediately and that piece of garbage was arrested a day ago. It is almost certain that this person obtained the willing cooperation of a female acquaintance to bring his weapon into the club so that he could victimise everyone in there.

Did security take cover? Yes. Did security "run screaming out with the crowd"? No. Those at the entry and exit stayed at their posts and evacuated the crowd as best they could - it was panic and pandemonium as you can imagine. There were several security inside, some mere feet from the shooter and these held their ground and bore witness as best they could. Security also rendered first aid to the wounded as did bar staff. The patron mentioned above may have helped the young lady who was shot but the star at that treatment was a Navy corpsman who had just returned from a tour with marines in Iraq. The fisrt to reach the young man most seriously injured was a five foot nothing female bartender who was at his side almost the moment he he the deck - utterly fearless and thinking only of the injured man. The others were the victim's friend and an EMT trained security guard.
This was a total tragedy. One moral midget traumatised all the patrons, all the staff and victimised the three innocent people he shot. Were security uncaring or lacksadaisical or oblivious to the potential threat? Absolutely not. In fact those that stood their ground and those that ran TOWARDS the sound of gunfire despite being UNARMED themselves did more than anyone can reasonably ask of staff paid $13 or so an hour. As noted in the comment by tghe Sugar bartender the rush to judgement by those with few to NO facts about what actually happened that night has been swift. Im not sure what the mayor's excuse is - he at least will have been briefed by the police. Bottom line is that most people have a very false sense of security and do not realise that their safety is a matter of betting on the averages and trusting in sheer luck. You avoid the worse parts of town, you cross the road to play it safe when someone walking towards you gives you a bad feeling, but bad things can reach right out and grab you and change your life despite your and lots of other people's best efforts. In fact thats what these sociopaths and criminal assholes get off on - showing you that your rules dont apply to them and reaching into your comfy world and fucking it up.
Aw fuck it, there is everything and nothing to be said in the face of such a tragedy. My heart and prayers go out to the young man still critically injured and to his family and thats probably all any of us should be saying.

Posted by Club Security | December 1, 2007 12:21 PM

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