Yeah, it's exactly like Germany in 1938. Except for the part where Bush hasn't outlined any plans to acquire territory through conquest, hasn't created a "Jewish other" for his social platform, has actually created a depression instead of bringing us out of one, has utterly failed to create political momentum for a war mobilization of our economy and military, and has never asked for anything remotely like the Enabling Act. Except for all that stuff and, oh, popular support for the dissolution of the republic, it's exactly like Germany in 1938.

Though you know the other things it's kind of like is the United States in 1967. The Iraq Resolution being much more like the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution than it is like the Enabling Act, and the PATRIOT ACT being much more like COINTELPRO than it is like the Reichstag Fire Decree -- Iraq being much more like Vietnam and the myth of an "Axis of Evil" being much more like the myth of a global communist conspiracy. Not to mention the revival of the domino theory and so on.

But otherwise, yeah. Exactly like Germany in 1938.

Thanks for dropping in.

Better read this before you go any further:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1933392797

It's like Nazi Germany!

LET'S GET THIS SORTED! DISCUSS!

(I can't believe I'm addressing Geoff Tate!!!)

We are not Germany 1938, we are America 2007 and frankly that is in some ways scarier. The type of facism we are embrassing is different and in many ways more subtle than Germany of Italy in the 1930's.

Truth

Yeah, I've read Wolf's ideas on the 10 steps to fascism and all that. I wasn't terribly impressed. Like most liberals, she seems to have a hard time understanding that there's a difference between a "fascist shift" and "Germany in 1938".

Hitler's Germany was not the logical outcome of all fascist shifts. Italian fascism, while certainly not a system I'd like to live under, lacked most of the characteristics of German Nazism, and there's very little reason to believe that it was headed in the same direction. There are degrees of all political systems. Comparing the United States now to Germany in 1938 makes about as much sense as comparing Canada, with its socialized medicine and large domestic spending budget, to Stalin's Soviet Union -- which, I might add, many opponents of socialized medicine actually do.

There is a fascist shift taking place in the United States, and it's very similar to the fascist shift that took place here 40 years ago. That's a bad thing on its own terms, and intelligent people should be able to discuss it in realistic terms. Comparing it to the Nazification of Germany in 1938 just makes us sound like a pack of cunts.

And GITMO is the public one, FWIW.

Honestly, it just seems like we're returning to the status quo after two World Wars and proxy wars during the Cold War.

Great job on the National Anthem at the Hawks game a couple of weeks ago. Come back any time!

Our secret camps concern me because they're immoral and illegal. But they don't make me fear for my liberty. The only people who are likely to be afraid of those camps are Arabs and people who look like Arabs -- and even there, the thing to be afraid of is the incompetence of our government and the ridiculous political agenda that keeps them from admitting when they've made a mistake, rather than a draconian political agenda of silencing dissent. Anyone -- even an Arab -- can stand on a street corner in this country and accuse the government and Bush of all manner of atrocities and be completely secure in their liberty. And that's the difference between our "secret camps" and the concentration camps of Nazi Germany -- not just a procedural difference in how they function, but a difference in what they mean to political discourse in our society.

What we're doing is bad for its own reasons. We don't need to go talking a lot of ignorant bullshit about Nazis.

No doubt you would be able to provide an extremely insightful breakdown of our current situation vis-a-vis numerous historical parallels. It would be fifteen paragraphs long and for the ten people who actually read it (nine if you don't count me), it might help them to understand the particulars of exactly how they are fucked.

Let the rock star speak for crying out loud.

A true Seattlite, unlike any of you wannabe hipster shitty poser artistic transplant little cow turds.

Operation Mindcrime is handsdown one of the best albums of the 1980's.

Most conversations end when somebody brings up Hitler, there is no comparison, but Wolf Chomski and other serious thinkers do talk about semi police states, neoliberal expansionist wars, empir,. erosion of liberties and other things that are indeed happening.

Ever read "It Can't Happen Here"? It is.

The "People are too stupid or apathetic to appreciate your points," argument. Always a little spot of sunshine in my day.

I guess my response would be that, A) there are still a lot of people around who remember the Gulf of Tonkin resolution because they were alive when it was passed. Not many of them read the Slog, more's the pity, but it might not be quite as obscure as you seem to think it is. B) More sophisticated similes suggest more useful solutions to our current problems. People who want to act against the fascist shift currently taking place in the United States would be much better served by employing the mobilization efforts of the SDS than they would be trying to recreate the White Rose or the Rebel Alliance. C) Dramatic similes have a situational shelf-life after which most people have been exposed to a battery of arguments about the validity of the simile and made up their minds about whether they agree with it or not. The level of debate becomes more specific and nuanced and the demographic that uses the original broad-strokes simile slides down the IQ scale. So, for example, people who still use the phrase "family values" unironically are generally considered morons even by the party who coined the term, because most people in the party know that the debate has evolved way beyond the set of assumptions implied by that fairly simplistic analogy.

Finally, I daresay that people who use the story of Germany's transformation from a democracy to a fascist state with aspirations for global domination as an analogy for current US politics actually aren't familiar with it in any meaningful sense, or they would know better than to use it. For people who still do use it, it may as well be the story of the Galactic Empire; it has about that much historical currency in their minds.

Let the rock star speak indeed.

Anyone -- even an Arab -- can stand on a street corner in this country and accuse the government and Bush of all manner of atrocities and be completely secure in their liberty.

Judah, are you aware of the "Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007" that is making its way through Congress now? It passed the House 400-6 last month under Suspension of Rules.

See this related Democracy Now Amy Goodman interview of Jessica Lee, reporter for the Indypendent (NYC Indymedia Center) and Kamau Karl Franklin from the Center for Constitutional Rights.

Quoting the Center for Constitutional Rights' Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007 fact sheet:

“SEC. 899A (2) VIOLENT RADICALIZATION- The term `violent radicalization' means the process of adopting or promoting an extremist belief system for the purpose of facilitating ideologically based violence to advance political, religious, or social change.”

What is an extremist belief system? term is left undefined and open to many interpretations, socialism, anarchism, communism, nationalism, liberalism, etc. that would serve to undermine expressions that don’t fit within the allowable areas of debate. A direct action led by any group that blocks traffic can be looked upon as being coercive.

“SEC. 899B. (3) The Internet has aided in facilitating violent radicalization, ideologically based violence, and the homegrown terrorism process in the United States by providing access to broad and constant streams of terrorist-related propaganda to United States citizens.”

The focus on the internet is crucial, it can set up far more intrusive surveillance techniques, without warrants, and the potential to criminalize ideas and not actions can mean penalties for your stance rather than any criminal act.

“SEC. 899A. (4) IDEOLOGICALLY BASED VIOLENCE- The term `ideologically-based violence' means the use, planned use, or threatened use of force or violence by a group or individual to promote the group or individual's political, religious, or social beliefs.”

What is force, is civil disobedience covered under that, if arrested at a protest rally and charged with disorderly conduct, obstructing governmental administration, or even assault does that now open you up to possible terrorist charges in the future?

If this passes, we'll very likely not be completely secure in our liberty while standing on a street corner in this country and voicing dissent.

• "The New Enabling Act" by John Steinberg, Raw Story, September 7, 2006


• "Bush's 'Patriot Act' Vs Hitler's 'Enabling Act'; What's The Difference?" by John Carman, Rense.com, October 5, 2004

They say history doesn't repeat, but it does rhyme. Rock lyrics also generally rhyme. It is a natural fit!

And as soon as I actually try to prevent someone from talking -- rather than just heckling them for saying stupid shit -- that argument will be applicable.

@33

Here's a little present for you. These are the Criminal Anarchy statutes that were in force in Washington State from 1919 to 2000. You know how many people were prosecuted under these statutes? Three, in 81 years. Laws do matter, but there's a difference between what's legally permissible and what's politically likely. There are similar statutes all through American history -- particularly during the 1960s -- but I'm especially fond of these ones.

RCW 9.05.010 Criminal anarchy defined. Criminal anarchy is the doctrine that organized government should be overthrown by force or violence, or by assassination of the executive head or of any of the executive officials of government, or by any unlawful means. The advocating of such doctrine either by word of mouth, by writing, by radio, or by printing is a felony.

RCW 9.05.020 Advocating criminal anarchy--Penalty.
Every person who:
(1) By word of mouth, by writing, by radio, or by printing shall advocate, advise or teach the duty, necessity or propriety of overthrowing or overturning organized government by force or violence, or by assassination of the executive head or of any of the executive officials of government, or by any unlawful means;
(2) Shall print, publish, edit, issue or knowingly circulate, sell, distribute or publicly display any book, paper, document, or written or printed matter in any form, containing or advocating, advising or teaching the doctrine that organized government should be overthrown by force, violence or any unlawful means; or,
(3) Shall openly, willfully and deliberately justify by word of mouth, by writing, by radio or by printing the assassination or unlawful killing or assaulting of any executive or other officer of the United States or of any state or of any civilized nation having an organized government because of his or her official character, or any other crime, with intent to teach, spread or advocate the propriety of the doctrines of criminal anarchy; or,
(4) Shall organize or help to organize or become a member of or voluntarily assemble with any society, group or assembly of persons formed to teach or advocate such doctrine,
Shall be punished by imprisonment in a state correctional facility for not more than ten years, or by a fine of not more than five thousand dollars, or by both.
No person convicted of violating any of the provisions of RCW 9.05.010 or 9.05.020 shall be an employee of the state, or any department, agency, or subdivision thereof during the five years next following his or her conviction.

9.05.030 Assemblages of anarchists.
Whenever two or more persons assemble for the purpose of advocating or teaching the doctrines of criminal anarchy, as defined in RCW 9.05.010, such an assembly is unlawful, and every person voluntarily participating therein by his or her presence, aid or instigation, shall be punished by imprisonment in a state correctional facility for not more than ten years, or by a fine of not more than five thousand dollars, or both.

RCW 9.05.040 Permitting premises to be used for assemblages of anarchists.
Every owner, agent, superintendent, janitor, caretaker or occupant of any place, building or room, who shall willfully and knowingly permit therein any assemblage of persons prohibited by RCW 9.05.030, or who, after notification that the premises are so used, shall permit such use to be continued, shall be guilty of a gross misdemeanor.

RCW 9.05.060 Sabotage defined--Penalty.
Whoever, with intent that his act shall, or with reason to believe that it may, injure, interfere with, or obstruct any agricultural, stockraising, lumbering, mining, quarrying, fishing, manufacturing, transportation, mercantile or building enterprise wherein persons are employed for wage, shall willfully injure or destroy, or attempt or threaten to injure or destroy, any property whatsoever, or shall willfully derange, or attempt or threaten to derange, any mechanism or appliance, shall be guilty of a felony.

RCW 9.05.070 Interference with owner's control. Whoever, with intent to supplant, nullify or impair the owner's management or control of any enterprise described in RCW 9.05.060, shall unlawfully take or retain, or attempt or threaten unlawfully to take or retain, possession or control of any property or instrumentality used in such enterprise, shall be guilty of a felony.

RCW 9.05.080 Penalty for advocating sabotage. Whoever shall
(1) Advocate, advise or teach the necessity, duty, propriety or expediency of doing or practicing any of the acts made unlawful by RCW 9.05.060 or 9.05.070, or
(2) Print, publish, edit, issue or knowingly sell, circulate, distribute or display any book, pamphlet, paper, hand-bill, document or written or printed matter of any form, advocating, advising or teaching such necessity, duty, propriety or expediency,
(3) By word of mouth or writing justify any act or conduct with intent to advocate, advise or teach such necessity, duty, propriety or expediency, or
(4) Organize or help to organize, give aid to, be a member of or voluntarily assemble with, any group of persons formed to advocate, advise or teach such necessity, duty, propriety or expediency, shall be guilty of a felony.

sorry i egged yr house all those years ago... i should've just written you a nasty letter.

'twas fun though.

It is somewhat ironic that the songs that people have referenced in this thread started by Geoff Tate are Silent Lucidity and Jet City Woman - songs that Geoff Tate sang, but did not write (Chris DeGarmo wrote them), or co-wrote but are nonetheless none of the politically or socially minded songs by Queensryche, which were usually written by Geoff. Odd, for a political thread. From the album that gave us Silent Lucidty and Jet City Woman, check out the songs that Geoff tate DID write the lyrics for, that are politically/socially minded:

EMPIRE
Music and Lyrics by Michael Wilton and Geoff Tate

Last night the word came down, ten dead in Chinatown.
Innocent, their only crime was being in the wrong place, at the wrong time
Too bad, people say what's wrong with the kids today
Tell you right now they've got nothing to lose

They're building EMPIRE!

Johnny used to work after school
at the cinema show.
Gotta hustle if he wants an education
he's got a long way to go.
Now he's out on the street all day
selling Crack to the people who pay.
Got an AK-47 for his best friend
business the American way.

Eastside meets Westside downtown.
No time, the walls fall down

Can't you feel it coming? EMPIRE! Can't you hear it calling?
Black man, trapped again. hold his chain in his hand.
Brother killing brother for the profit of another,
Game point, nobody wins. Decline, right on time.
What happened to the dream sublime?
Tear it all down, we'll put it up again. Another EMPIRE?

Eastside meets Westside downtown.
No time, no line, the walls fall down.

Can't you feel it coming? EMPIRE!
Can't you hear it coming EMPIRE!
Can't someone here stop it...??!!

RESISTANCE
Music by: Michael Wilton, Lyrics by: Geoff Tate

Protests in New York.
Listen to the call of the wild.
Brother, sisters carrying signs.
Breathe deep before it's too late;
The sky is falling, burning your eyes.
Down in New Orleans river's boiling.
Nothing living, nothing to eat.
Thank the Lord, daddy's working 8-5.
Paying the doctor, baby's got cancer.

Give and take.
Has all we've learned been wrong?
Look around at what we've been given.
Maybe we've taken too long.

Resistance- shouts the man on the right.
Can't solve the problem overnight.
Resistance- Listen to the call of the wild.

Burning coal.
Got to keep the company warm as
the rain keeps killing the trees.
Cut 'em down quick.
Pay the man his wage, he's making paper
to fuel the "Information Age".
Out in the midwest,
hear the roar of the plough,
turning grassland into sand.
Got to feed the people more every day
but the wind keeps blowing the land away.

Give and take.
Has all we've learned been wrong?
Look around at what we've been given.
Maybe we've taken too long.

Resistance- shouts the man on the right.
Can't solve the problem overnight.
Resistance- Liberal opposition crying violation.
Stop the madness.
Resistance- Through the din, one voice we should hear.
Resistance- Listen to the call of the wild.

There's no easy solution.
The price is high, and it's time to pay.
Turn of the century vision
focused on a better way.
Resistance- shouts the man on the right.
Can't solve the problem overnight.

Resistance- Liberal opposition crying violation.
Stop the madness.
Resistance- Through the din, one voice we should hear.
Resistance- Listen to the call of the wild.