Comments on Did I Say Robots for Ron Paul? Well Look Who's for Dino Rossi...

the iron cross, like the swastika, precedes the nazis.

rossi is not a nazi. he's a corporate tool.

@1,
Duh. But they sorta tainted it.

Iron Cross goes back to the 17th Century Prussia (could be earlier than that)AND the German Military STILL awards the Iron Cross.

Rossi is a corporate tool. He is not clever enough to be a Nazi.

Dino Rossi: Not Clever Enough to be a Nazi.

Now there's a campaign slogan.

But unlike the swastika, the Iron Cross has always been associated with militarism and authoritarianism (in this case of the Prussian variety). Using the Iron Cross as a campaign symbol indicates either gross ignorance, or an identification with militarist and authoritarian ideals. Don't you think?

2 has it right. Whether the symbol preceeded the Nazi party or not, they appropriated it, and the *current* cultural reference is that of the Nazi party. This is creepy and weird.

NOT defending Rossi for using it and it is telling about the current GOP. And Rossi not being clever enough to be a Nazi? Yeah, Hitler never would have left a 130 vote short fall keep him from taking over.

Is it really possible that slog readers are this culturally disconnected?

This variant of the iron cross is widely used in motorcycle culture. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_Cross#Post-World_War_II

So it may be in poor taste (I wouldn't know: as far as I can tell *everything* causes offense these days), but if these people are coming from a biker or pseudo-rebellious background, it's entirely understandable. In those cultures, the symbol is widely used and commercialized and has lost all connection with Nazis.

Wait, why can't he be BOTH a nazi AND a corporate tool?

And how can you be a corporate tool when you were a CEO? I mean, he had corporate tools work for him, exploiting gullible Americans.

so orange county choppers is a nazi motorcycle customizer, and every prole that sports their tshirts & hoodies is a nazi?

its likely that OC chopper's logo is where the association is coming from in the minds of the idiots who vote GOP.

@7 - No, the Nazis wouldn't have let 130 votes keep them out of power. But this is an indication of thugishness, not cleverness. Historically Hitler *was* clever enough to convince many many Germans that he was not really as thugish as they thought he was (or as the SA might have been). It remains to be seen whether contemporary Republicans will come down on the side of thugishness or cleverness.

Yeah, with #8 here. I see these crosses all the time on biker paraphernalia, sold in malls all the time. It's hardly uncommon or taboo.

@2 and 6
Yes, tainted, much like dachshunds and bratwurst.

I will propose that at least one measure of the tainted associations of this symbol should derive from contemporary German society's comfort/discomfort with it, particularly in light of the fact that German law prohibits the display of the Nazi swastika.

This being said, note that the contemporary German military uses the iron cross as their national symbol and plasters it all over vehicles as an identifying marker. It's also worthwhile to note that the contemporary German military obeys some of the most stringent parlimentary requirements regarding overseas deployments of any of the NATO countries. Contrast this with, say, us.

Finally, I can see Rossi wanting to lock up the motorcyclist vote, but I'm not clear that pandering to the Prussian traditionalists has legs in this state.

Um, the bikers stole it from the Nazis too. Literally; they originally were wearing Nazi regalia they had captured on the battlefield in WWII.

How can people be so misguided?

While the iron cross is part of "outlaw" biker kitsch, it isn't because, as Wikipedia claims, it represents "honor" any of that nonsense. In fact, the 1930 Howard Hughes film "Hell's Angels" which gave the biker gang its name, featured its heroes flying behind lines in a captured German bomber decorated with the iron cross.

What is worse, 'Tino Rossi's supporters don't seem to be able to tell the difference between a yuppie CPA on a $25,000 Harley-Davidson playing dress-up as an "outlaw" biker, and the real deal, a world champion motorcycle racer. Given that it has been decades since Harley made a bike capable of competing on a real race track, you would think they would be able to see how little Valentino Rossi has in common with the guys on their outdated bikes in their outdated biker costumes.

To be sure, "outlaw" bikers are harmless, like those quirky fellows who dress up like knights and squires for a Renaissance Festival, so I don't want to be mock them too cruelly. But #46, Valentino Rossi, has nothing to do with that scene.

The Jewish rock band KISS has SS bolts in their design.

@9:

rossi is a creature of the master builder's association.

Rossi's cross looks just like this surfer logo to me:

http://www.shorelinesurf.com/shoreline-logo-tees.htm

Actually, the iron cross dates to the Napoleonic wars. It was designed by Karl Friedrich Schinkel, possibly the most important architect *EVER* for the Prussian military as a symbol both of national *liberation* and national pride -- and was a symbol of the struggle to free Germany from the overlordship and military dictatorship of Napoleon.

At the time, Prussia was considered to be one of the most *progressive* states in Europe. It's military was a model of professionalism and capability (think Clausewitz).

The iron cross originally was associated with the military much in the same way as our purple heart is associated with the military -- in a positive, not a negative sense.

Of course as Prussia and Germany became less progressive and as nationalism becams more militarist and chauvinistic, the iron cross came to symbolize these regressive aspects of German culture.

What a fucking load of shit. Really Josh, did you just graduate from the Bill Donahoe Right Wing Asshole School of Manufactured Outrage? It's an Iron Cross you ignorant dildo. The Iron Cross was used in Germany before the Nazis took over and is still used in Germany. It's not a Swastika for fuck's sake and your attempt to link Rossi's supporters with the Nazi part shows that you're every bit as stupid as those useless right wing dogfuckers who were wetting themselves because Barack Obama wasn't showing his patriotism by wearing a cheap US flag lapel pin.

When soldiers returned from WWII they bought motorcycles for cheap transportation and many brought back war souveneirs such as the iron cross and the stahlhelm helmet. Displaying such items showed pride in victory (this helmet shows there is one less Nazi in the world, etc, a similar practice to scalping if less gruesome). Hovever the symbols themselves integrated into biker culture and this meaning has been all but lost.

Nowadays American white supremacists DO display the cron cross as a token of their racist ideology. for example see http://www.google.com/search?q=%22iron+cross%22+site%3Astormfront.org&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

American white supremacists also display the American flag as a sign of their racist ideology. That doesn't mean we should just hand the symbol over to them, for it to be evermore associated with complete assholes.

Still, yeah, weird use of the iron cross there.

Really? Returning WWII soldiers on hogs?

Then riddle me this: How come nobody has ever seen an old biker dude display any Imperial Japanese war trophies? Did the GI's who came back from the Pacific theater dislike motorcycles?

Beautiful theory. Ugly facts.

Nazi symbols are mostly for racists, though a few trace their roots to the old Hells Angels movie.

Ya'll are tools.... it's a freaking maltese cross... go check out the fire department's logo... Seen them on a plenty and elbow.... Seattle: Home of the red diaper doper baby crowd...

Sheeple person, you are ignorant on the subject of crosses. The fire department logo is a cross of St. Florian, patron saint of firefighters.

I'm confused as to whether the original Hells Angels wore nazi regalia as some sort of sign of pride of having defeated the nazis or whether it was for shock factor. Here on Slog is the first I think I've heard of the former theory. The time period would fit though.

Although most of the bikers that one might find wearing a some sort of Iron Cross gear here in Washington are likely incredibly tame weekend riders, nonethess the symbol still evokes thoughts of nazis.

I think that is the real issue here, so what if fire department crosses are similar and most bikers are normal dudes dressing up in a costume on the weekend, the fact is you will never be able to seperate the Iron Cross from the nazis and as such someone who is SUPPOSED to be PR savvy enough to represent our state ISN'T.

I have a t-shirt from a courier rally that features a prominent Iron Cross and I don't wear it outside the house for fear of giving the wrong impression.

Something about the way the words Posse and Rossi are crossed like in an old punk rock and skinhead logo bugs me too.Even if they are trying to be cool it doesn't sit well with me.

You notice not too many kids are named Adolf these days either?

What's more disturbing is that the fact that our country has slipped to the point that the Republicans followers are of such ilk that we genuinely fear that they will all be wearing brownshirts and sporting such regalia as this Rossi Posse shit while they beat us up or keep us from entering the polls.

Or they might just be to lazy to make their own shirts and ripping off the piss poor band Rossi Posse...

http://www.therossiposse.com/

LMAO, THE ROSSI POSSE!

Dude, Josh Fiet is synonymous with intellectual dishonesty.

Rossi is trying to capture the pseudo-rebellious, mars-hilly, ex-fratty crowd.

You guys aren't missing the point on purpose are you?

This is right up the " bros' " alley.

"Dude! Rossi's down, Bro! He probably rides a hog, man!"

20 something whitey tuffs from the Eastside are shitting their pants over how "bad ass" Rossi is after they see this decal on the back of a killer toy puller with Strung Out blasting in the cab.