Its funny that you showed up to that party, Erica. You didn't stick around long enough for any of us to say something to you ...
How fucked are we if 960 passes? I haven't been taking it all that seriously, because I didn't think it had a prayer.
@2 It'll likely be found unconstitutional, so it's just Timmy wasting more taxpayer money, as usual.
I am most seriously confused by the election results in general. What is going on?
I think that liberals must be pretty apathetic on local issues, and just turn out when there's sweeping, clear-cut ideological things to vote on. Local issues (which directly impact us way more than federal ones on a daily basis) are just too wonky for most progressives. Or something.
The anti-tax voters were out in force this year.
Erica, maybe the seemingly contrary patterns you're seeing don't have as much to do with conservative vs. liberal as much as a fine line in fiscal conservatism.
Remember that Libertarian Ruth Bennett got double digit votes in the governor's race last year.
Everyone forgets that WA state has a very large Libertarian population.
If you'd ever spent any time with Darlene Flynn, you wouldn't be at all surprised that she's losing tonight.
MFA: good point. That would explain the rainy day fund, too.
What in the world are you talking about, matthew fisher wilder? In one sense, you're way too low -- Bennett actually received five digit votes if you're talking about total counts. But in another sense (the one I believe you intend to suggest), you're way too high. As shown in the final tally from Sam Reed's office, Bennett's 63,465 votes constituted a mere 2.26% of the gubernatorial vote in 2004.While that's more than Steve LePage's 1.94% in 2000 (the only other time there's been a Libertarian running for governor since 1976), it's far less than the 2004 Libertarian percentages for Lt. Governor (Jocelyn A Langlois, 4.41%), Secretary of State (Jacqueline Passey, 3.09%), Treasurer (John Sample, 3.68%), Auditor (Jason G. Bush, 3.87%), Commissioner of Public Lands (Steve Layman, 3.36%), and Insurance Commissioner (Stephen D. Steele, 4.19%). To be fair, Bennett did outpoll Attorney General candidate J. Bradley Gibson, who only got 2.11%.The point being that Bennett probably had no measurable or definable effect on the 2004 gubernatorial election. The point not being that Washington voters, no matter which party they reluctantly profess to be part of, have an anti-tax/NIMBY/(small L)libertarian orientation.
It was a proposition, not a group of people. That is EVERYTHING that is wrong with politics in this country. You weren't voting for against "boots" ladenburg or for ron sims, you were voting for or against roads and transit.
It's possible Bennett got 12% of the vote in King County but I could be wrong. I am surprised it was only 2.something% after all.
Still, she got far more votes than the margin between Rossi and Gregoire in '04 (then again, even my family would have made a difference in that one), so she did make a difference. It doesn't matter now, but I wonder which way the votes would have gone had she not run.
I just think the voters were cranky.
What was strange was seeing my polling place pretty packed out at 5:30. People waiting to vote. For as low as turnout was, it was about as full as it was in 2004.
Sadly, RTID got a higher precentage than RTA (Sound Transit) so this looks like a HUGE vote against transit.
I just wanted to thank you for all your hard work fighting against new roads and a useful light rail system. Now that RTID has failed, and I-960 has won, we will need to get a 67% vote to fund light rail.
We're fucked. Thanks again.
my .02...On a purely local level.
The failure of prop 1 is meaningless in the short-term as none of its touted benefits would have been seen for a decade or more. Long-term? Who knows could be bad or great.
Satterburg winning. No big deal. At least in the short run, he'll be Norm light. And Sherman was all talk with little concrete to back him up.
Godden winning. Status quo.
Della losing. Hmm. He deserved to, but who is the real Burgess? This might make a difference. Della was barely a warm body on the council. If Burgess is proactive he might make a difference...so the question here is: do we get family values (I'll throw you under the bus for a buck) Tim, or the newly minted quasi-caring progressive?
Harrell winning. This is is probably the key local race. None of the wannabes were even a fraction of Peter. Peter was the opposite of Della, involved in everything and with an opinion on everything. Venus would have been Peter light by an order of magnitude. But what's Bruce? I think this is the biggest question to follow in the new council.
Also of interest will be who the two newbies (Tim and Bruce) choose to align themselves with and which of them emerges as top dog.
And then....there is the lingering question of what happens with McIver.
K, the 2/3rds is for legislature, not voter initiatives. Why would Tim Eyman, initative whore, try to win an initiative that requires 67% of a vote? Not that this would help light rail of course, but it wouldn't kill it either.
Also, I noticed I-960 dipped 2% to 53% just tonight alone. If it continues this pattern overnight, it might dip below 50% by morning.
If not, then it probably will be ruled unconstitutional.
I'm disappointed in this year's results too, moreso in my own state or region, but at least this isn't as suicidal as the 2004 results. Ugh. Anyway, heading to bed. YOu guys can stay up all night worrying if you want.
Sorry, I spent so much time with the 2004 WA Gov race (wrote dozens of DailyKos diaries, almost daily) that I have to say something whenever the subject comes up.matthew fisher wilder, again:
Nope, not even close. Bennett scored a bit lower in King than overall -- 18,952 votes, 2.16%. Her vote was really quite consistent across counties, ranging from 1.43% in Franklin to 3.61% in Skamania.OTOH, I certainly agree with you that any little whisper of an effect of something might have shifted the Gregoire-Rossi margin in the other direction. But I doubt that we'll ever know what such effects might have been or how large they were.
So, thanks to Ron Sims, the Stranger, and the Sierra Club--light rail got a resounding defeat at the polls tonight. I hope you all feel proud. I am interested to see if the Stranger and others are actually going to start covering electoral politics in this state and region now. Are you going to help us get to a victory for light rail or are going to continue to sink our chances for rail in this region?
Tell us now what your plan is to ensure electoral victory for mass transit.
Tonight reminds me of 2000 when Al Gore wasn't quit good enough for many of you. So we got eight years of George Bush. Now it looks like we get the roads built anyway and no rail. Congrats...I guess...
the 1:05 drop is discouraging...it shows Fisken falling behind, but it's still only 25% of expected ballots.
On the other hand, the point gap over 960 statewide is falling.
And again, I hate mail in voting.
I have a rather different answer for why Prop 1 did badly in the 43rd and 46th that transcends the rail/roads debate as folks here are trying to frame it - SR 520 in general and the Pacific Street Interchange in particular.
The cliche that all politics are/is local still holds, and lots of people in NE Seattle recognized that the only way they could kill the current SR 520 proposals was to go public and campaign to get their neighbors to vote against Prop 1 in the hopes of forcing some new alternatives (and they did it the old fashioned way by going door-to-door with literature and having volunteers do personal phone voter contact instead of recorded Robo-calls).
As independent expenditure campaigns go, these folks got a lot more bang for their buck than Forward Seattle did.
I, for one, voted no on Roads and Transit largely because of the funding sources, cars and sales tax. Is it too much to ask that the people who make large amounts of money off of the humble proletarian, who is stuck in traffic, foot the bill for getting them to work? Unfortunately in Washington we don't have an income tax that we could ramp up on people making more than $200,000 or whatever and be done with it, and I doubt the business lobby will let us tax the business directly. Does anyone see any way to get a more progressive funding source for transit?
Ok perfect is the enemy of the good people, when do we see this alleged 2.1 ST plan and how do you plan to pass it without the votes of the road supporters?
THE NEO HIP DO NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT PROBLEM SOLVING - AND IN ALL POLITICS ABOUT ANY PUBLIC POLICY THAT ALWAYS MEANS COMPROMISE
THERE WILL BE NO LIGHT RAIL IN THE NEAR OR FAR FUTURE
IF TIM EYMAN IS AS SMART AS I THINK HE IS --- HE WILL DO A STATE WIDE MONEY BILL, BY INITIATIVE, FOR ROADS ONLY
FUCK SEATTLE, AND HE JUST PROVED HE CAN, AND DID, AND NOT HE HAS CONSERVATIONISTS ON HIS SIDE, SHREWD GUY
BY THE WAY, THE REAST OF THE STATE DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE 520 BRIDGE OR THE STATE OF STREETS IN SEATTLE, VIADUCT OR OTHER
AND IF ROSSI BEATS GREGOIRE - ANTI SEATTLE WILL REACH NEW HEIGHTS, AS IN STATE SUPPORT FOR ANYTHING, PAYBACK IS MEAN AND I SUSPECT DINO HATES SEATTLE LIBERALS
TYPING EVERYTHING IN CAPS MAKES YOU LOOK LIKE A RETARD.
AND READING YOUR MESSAGE CONFIRMED IT
sigh, fuck you erica. good luck on getting enough additional light rail/mass transit that will do any good. well i guess those additional 1 million people in area by 2030 won't have anyway to get here.
screw public initiatives - it's called voting for your elected officials.
I don't understand this post. I-960 got KILLED.
Oops, nevermind. I-960 is getting killed in KING COUNTY. I forgot about the bumpkins...
Maybe we can finally decouple roads and trains. Use gas tax (and tolls) to pay for roads and use the farebox to pay for trains. If you want to force more people to use the trains, then sever some of the roads coming into Seattle -- for instance, I wouldn't mind seeing the 520 bridge removed. That would be a lot cheaper than rebuilding the thing -- which will still be choked because there is no way the homeowners on either side of the bridge would allow it to be as wide as it needs to be to handle the traffic.
Seriously, I am so tired of the interest groups coming up with these convoluted taxing schemes to force "someone else" to pay for local transit. Sales tax for trains. Car tab tax for buses. And all the Seattlites dreaming of having a state income tax to pay for everything.
Seems to me like the liberals stayed home. Makes sense - off-year elections like this are low-turnout affairs.
So that raises some big questions for light rail, which Erica opposes but the rest of us would like to support. Do we need to run this in a major election? 2008 is out of the question, of course, because Gregoire is skittish about having a tax measure on the same ballot as her name. Does that mean she or other Dems would balk at putting ST2 on the 2012 ballot?
If they would, then where exactly DO we put it? 2010 - would a Senate race draw out enough liberals and pro-transit folks? 2011 - wouldn't that cause the same problems we witnessed today?
Thanks a lot Erica. You've helped kill clean mass transit in Western Washington, perhaps for good. In your ignorance you did not examine the full range of transportation issues, and did not investigate the underlying politics. This was our best chance, but you, in typical Seattle fashion (how's it feel to have gone native?), decided to sink it because it wasn't perfect.
Forward Thrust in 1970...Sound Transit in 1995...Monorail in 2005...and Prop 1 in 2007. All failed. Seattle slips further and further behind the nation and the world, at precisely the moment it needed to invest in catch-up.
Mr. X: The problem is that, Seattleites, esp. those sitting on a Cap Hill perch, never leave city limits except to visit Portland or see someone at the Gorge. So they have no fucking idea what hell 520 can be.
Will we get the suburbanites to vote for our light rail with nothing in it for them? No. Do we need their support for it to pass? Yep.
Would I rather have tax-funded, free-to-ride light rail or underfunded, under-ridden $2.00/ride light rail? Hmm.
So the same structure that has prevented any citizen accountability for ST stops pro light railers from putting their own initiative on the ballot, ironic.
Is the next shoe to drop that they really don't have enough money to get to the UW? Maybe $3 billion to get to 75th street isn't the best investment.
Maybe KCMetro and ST should work together and bring us some state-of-the-art low floor buses and see what can be done. With all the kvechting about the opponents having no plan, in fact they did consistently say more and better buses.
Maybe if traffic gets shitty enough those 1 million by 2030 will move to Portland instead.
Power to the people!
Ah well, since there won't be any Prop. 1 tax increase, I should have enough extra cash to buy some water wings, so when 520 crumbles underneath my bus during the next seismic event, I might not drown.
What next folks? Since Prop. 1 apparently wasn't good enough, what's going to make the cut? And are all of you "no on Prop 1" folks going to work as hard as hard for a better package as you did trashing this one?
1. start tolls and congestion pricing now.
2. put more money into buses now.
3. safety or maintenance projects: first convince us the new 520 will (a) remain useable after the earthquake and (b) will not be the only strucgture standing aftere the earthquake. Then use gas tax, tolls etc. and user fees to friggin build it. Oh, and get the design settled before we vote on it.
4. Build rail connections in the dense areas first including W Seattle, Ballard, Kirkland and Renton.
Put it up in 08 or 09 when the first segment supposedly will be running.
Fund it with tolls and congestion pricing and car tabs and not the sales tax. Possibly a property tax. Change the 18th Amendment to allow this.
And everybody stop demanding that rail reduce congestion as we all know it doesn't. It does move people.
Stop using silly figures like the anti-Prop 1 crowd saying rail will only garner 1% of all trips. Duh. Ech new highway segment that costs billions will garner only 1% of all trips and your little trip for a paper at 6 am shouldn't count the same as a 15 mile commute to your job. EAch rail line can add capacity of over 100,000 trips a day.
5. Stop everyone being really bitchy/conslusory/thrological towards opponents each camp has got it about half right.
6. REally dig down and figure out why the hell rail is WAY more expensive here than in other cities.
7. Market rail as providing a time benefit to 800,000 users worth hundreds of thousands of dollars to them over 50 years.
8. BTW the 50 year costs including O+ M will make anything difficult. Say thanks to the anti monorail crowd. To reduce these costs use automated rail. Which requires complete grade separation.
9. Hire a bunch off folsk not from this area to be in charge including folks who have built rail and made it work.
10. REmember everything changes and 1 or 2 years is almost a lifetime.
1.. Meanwhile puch e cars and zoning to further density. Get better design review so the new buildings are not ugly.
11. Get the majority in the leg including the ones from Puget Sound to stop being weenies on transit and stick up to the raod warriors instead of appeasing them and collaborating with them.
mint chocolate chip @32:
There's no denying there's a real cause-and-effect relationship between infrastructure and population. It'll take a while to play out. But you could make a real argument that Prop. 1's defeat just reduced the 2030 population of the Seattle area by a very large number.
I'm sure a lot of folks are hardly shedding a tear over this outcome. In this respect, the lesser Seattle crowd knows what they're doing. Kind of a "starve the beast" philosophy, but applied to local growth rather than the federal government.
People (as in Erica) should really not be surprised that Roads & Transit lost by such a wide margin. Why we try to ‘out green’ each other in the halls of Seattle, people in the rest of King County, Pierce and Snohomish do what they always do -- Vote NO on any new taxes.
We had to win and win big in King County (esp. Seattle/Bellevue) to make up that difference. That is always how tax measures work. But we divided and conquered ourselves on this one.
I am all about the urban archipelago but one thing we already know is Seattle can't just fund our own roads and transit service and ignore the rest of the state. We have now spent some time focused on the region (which contains the most urban centers) and tried to streamline and fund our own transportation system and we have failed - again. It's really sad to me.
And, hey, did anyone notice that Tim Burgess' signs idealize single family neighborhoods. I tried to warn you people but you did not listen. It’s the rise of the single family protectionist nimby’s.
The election results last night were pretty depressing. The right-wing in this state is just better at turning out voters in off-year elections. Lefties only vote when it’s sexy. GOTV campaigns are the way to win. Tim Eyman knows it, and keeps getting his people out. Only 25% of King County’s mostly-liberal voters voted. All the money that was spent on public education from the RTID and Simple Majority people should have been spent organizing, doing field work, and getting supporters out to vote. “No on 912” knew GOTV was best the last time around and got the state to vote to keep higher gas taxes to support transportation. I blame strategy for the dismal returns. I also blame apathy by the common liberal King County voter.
Actually, the Sierra Club targetted the 43rd and 46th districts for the No on RTID - and it did work. You'll see when the credentialed report is certified.
Global Warming - it's NOW. No new highways. Period.
oh, hey, cressona, a couple of people asked me who you are - and I know we both worked on issues together, but you know how bad I am at names - can you remind me?
especially after the Karl Rove tactic your buds used in ID'ing me? you owe me.
Hopeless ignorance everywhere.
Prop 1 failed because people hate MVET taxes, and passing it meant decades of construction before there was anything to show for it.
And Will, you obnoxious spamming bitch, few if any people who voted against Prop 1 gave a shit about global warming, nor will ST2 have nearly enough support to pass after the populace shot down light rail this year, nor would a rail line in Seattle have any significant impact on worldwide global warming, because there are still 215 other countries and 7 billion other people who are still doing their own thing. The polar bears are going to die anyway.
Mrs. Y @36 states that Seattle can't fund its own transit. That is not self-evident to me. If Seattle wants trains, Seattle should build trains. I don't live or work in Seattle. If Seattle funds a train system, I am perfectly willing to pay extra bucks to ride on it for those times that I travel into Seattle.
Sorry, Will, no ST2.1 vote in 2008. Maybe not in 2009, either.
oh, sod off, Gomez. You know zip about national politics or you'd have seen that global warming was behind a number of close upsets. the voters grok it, the politicos are stuck in the Build To Get Labor And Construction Support mindset.
And Chris, you didn't say that the first two times I interviewed you for PACs ... congrats for electing a GOP candidate for congress to sit as King County Prosecuting Attorney, that's why a number of us avoided your lunch.
I don't know what the hell came you, Will, but you became a complete fucking idiot in the last two days, and a troll to boot. Do the world a favor and STFU.
That ain't nice or all that intelligent, but neither are you. No one wants to hear it, not even anyone on your side... if there is anyone.
You guys lay off Will. Will is a good guy who wants to do the right thing. It will take him some time to realize how badly he has miscaclulated politically.
Highways *will* get the state money now. And Will's 43rd District legislators will vote that money. Pierce County will get its Cross-Base Highway anyway, Will, because you helped kill RTID.
Outside the 43rd District, people in this state *want* highways. Frank Chopp and Ed Murray, who have to do business with the rest of the state, know this.
Will in Seattle, who is fixated on 100-story apartment buildings and polar bears, can't understand that the rest of the state isn't. Go easier on him, please.
While I still like Ivan, and all my Burner friends, I disagree about your conclusion.
We were at an inflection point, as has happened numerous times (remember when Seattle was anti-growth and we had caps on building heights?), where the voting populace has already figured out that they don't like what the politicos have been shoving down their throats.
And that means they want real action on global warming, and they want their bridges repaired, fully funded, and not with taxes that take three generations to pay that have zip to do with road usage.
That means they don't just want someone to slap a pretty label on a make-work project for contractors and labor to get rich off a Sea-Tac to Tacoma link that makes absolutely no sense economically. Come on, 1/10th the ridership per mile for that segment of the UW-Northgate segment and you haven't even FINISHED building the UW to Sea-Tac and don't even have a segment up and running.
You're missing the point, Will. Now it isn't a question of who gets what. It's a question of who gets what FIRST.
In this post-RTID political climate, the roads that you didn't want will get the boodle FIRST. If events prove me wrong, you know I'll admit it to your face. But that's what I think will happen.
The transit that you want will wait in line, because now you haven't the clout to get to the head of the line for the boodle, no matter how righteous your cause might be.
Yah! When did Will become a troll????????
Ivan speaks the truth.
Eyman, Freeman, Rossi and cabal will squeeze Seattle into the land of the crazy naysayers who don't want to pay the bill - and take the states money and build roads.
The road people won, with the Sierra Club licking their asses.
This is not dreamland performance art at Cal Anderson Park, but real hardball politics.
And if I was in their shoes, I am not sure I would want Seattle voters as a partner. All talk and tantrums and no walk.
Dino is on the way to creaming Gregoire.
She lost de facto. They will now push her to the wall. Along with her Seattle claque.
The money the R's pumped into Satterberg's rise was a piddle. Wait till the big boys on the Eastside do the money thing for Rossi.
So funny -congesting pricing? Whatever. Tolls.
Lol. No chance. Ain't gonna be no state funds for new highways without a vote.
And that won't happen this year.
The road people had no chance without the massive shift that Sierra Club did - and the electeds know it (and most have admitted it, even if not in earshot of the Stranger staff).
Will @ 51:
The road projects will come one by one. They'll come from the Legislature. There will be no public votes. Your legislators will vote for them. The Governor will sign them. And you and your Green Taliban friends will be powerless to stop them.
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