Comments on 35 Days to Concentrate on I-35

Ugh. Make it stop.

I want to add something; about seven months ago Judah said I was an idiot for saying it's okay to be bigoted against people like these.

It is. It totally is. I hate these people. All of them. I want them dead.

Thank you.

http://www.trincoll.edu/depts/csrpl/images/Jesus.jpg

I-35 has been there for, what, 40 years or so? And they've just now noticed it? It's just concrete and asphalt, people.

"Purity Siege"?

Good to see that Pat hasn't lost the crazy.

Yeah, sure, Christ died for RTID.

No, Christ was not involved in anything like that, in ANY reading of the Bible.

Why do the Red Bushies hate Christianity so much that they would LIE like this?

Jesus died on a cross so that we can all be white upper-middle class republicans. No seriously, it's in the bible. Look it up.

The 19 year old gay man that was converted has a fiancé? Did they have him from the gay marriage or is this story just full of shit?

"Rimannuel" has got to be the gayest fundie name ever.

Jesus touched me in a very special place as well. Layed his hands on my being. It turned me on to the power hot manflesh incarnate.
Gracias Jesus,
and Manuel too.

Lets claim all treasure trails in the name of Astaroth.

I want to add something; about seven months ago Judah said I was an idiot for saying it's okay to be bigoted against people like these.

Yeah, you're still an idiot for saying it's okay to be bigoted against people like these.

Crazy as these fuckers are, their craziness is only dangerous to us in one specific way: that bit at the end where the crazy little bucktooth lady says, "What do we expect to see? We expect laws to be changed in cities. We expect righteous leaders."

That's the only part of any of this that is actually any of your business, and we actually have a legal structure for dealing with it. As soon as they endorse a candidate or an initiative, their nonprofit status should be pulled, and it's as simple as that.

Beyond that, yeah, it's idiotic to be bigoted against them. Whatever kind of crazy they are, there are a lot of Americans who are similarly afflicted. In fact, the crazy religions are the only ones that are succeeding in the marketplace of ideas these days. Being bigoted toward them just means you can negotiate with them, and there are a lot more of them than there are of us.

That James fellow converted while he was drunk. Obviously, jesus wants us to be drunk.

And tax collectors. Jesus loves them especially.

Pharisee City, here I come!

But only a few miles from I-35 in Kansas City is US 69, which it largely replaced. Clearly the Creator had a plan. Strangely, US 69 signs tend to disappear more frequently than other highway signs.

It's like I'm tripping on acid or something.

If I-35 is the Highway of Holiness, why did God allow one of the bridges that carry it through Minneapolis to collapse? Is I-35W less holy than I-35E?

Stop it. I live in the United States. Not one of those backwater countries that worships inanimate objects and practices numerological fundamentalism.

@10

Hmmm...

poe is a bit introspective and pretty much right on.

while judah has all of his points twisted into some asinine logic of his own creation; his usual bitter spewing, wrapped in assimilationist hooey.

i'm going to have to agree with judah here. at least if you are going to bigoted against these people, understand there are a lot of them, and that not all of them are idiots.

from judah:
"Whatever kind of crazy they are, there are a lot of Americans who are similarly afflicted. In fact, the crazy religions are the only ones that are succeeding in the marketplace of ideas these days."

and from infrequent:
"at least if you are going to bigoted against these people, understand there are a lot of them, and that not all of them are idiots."

soooo. it's better to accept what crazy(judah is right on this) idiots(the majority of 'em according to infrequent) want and do, because there are so many of them, than it is to hate them for their crazy idiocy itself. right... okay, i'll get right on that.

Everything I say and do is correct.

This is great theater, NYC has NOTHING on this entertainment.

lulz. These people are morons and their beliefs stupid.

to wit: "crazy', "idiots", "morons" with stupid beliefs.

whats not to love?

it's better to accept what crazy idiots want and do, because there are so many of them, than it is to hate them for their crazy idiocy itself.

You are aware that we live in a republic, right? With the voting and the majority rule and all that business? So yeah, what they want matters because there are a lot of them, and we have to be able to negotiate with them for that reason. Their craziness and stupidity is actually, essentially, how most people in the world think. You either work with them and try to understand where they're coming from, or you pursue an oligarchy of the intelligentsia.

Beyond that, yeah, it's idiotic to be bigoted against them. Whatever kind of crazy they are, there are a lot of Americans who are similarly afflicted.

Being bigoted is definitely not a great idea, but I definitely got a shiver when they talked about "setting people on fire", protesting outside of gay bars, and changing the laws in the cities close to I-35.

And hey... I doubt that they'd take kindly to Wiccans or gays or whomever ministering outside of their churches or community centers.

Judah: sure it is a republic, w/all that attendant stuff... but negotiation? would not that validate the very hatred and ignorance that these people ooze?

hey if they want to talk, logically, for mutual benefit, they can lose all the superstition, arbitrary and achaic proscriptions, and divine right based upon the few literate scrbes at the time, then we'll talk, otherwise it should be a non- starter.

reason and logic should be the rule of the day, not mass delusion.

What a dumbass. 35 does NOT go to Canada (didn't he look at the map in the clip?) It starts in Duluth. I live about a half-mile from 35E where it goes through St. Paul. These people better stay the fuck away from me.

would not that validate the very hatred and ignorance that these people ooze?

No, because we're not negotiating with them about their religion, we're negotiating with them about civic obligation and our shared political future: schools, roads, food production, fiscal policy, trade policy, and so on. We don't need to argue religion and we don't need to refuse to argue religion on our own agenda: the Constitution gives us all the justification we need. We don't keep prayer out of schools because we're atheists. We keep it out of schools because the First Amendment requires us to. Nothing personal. Now let's talk about corn subsidies.

hey if they want to talk, logically, for mutual benefit, they can... (snip) ...otherwise it should be a non- starter.

Yeah, no.

Look, if I sit down to negotiate with someone and they tell me that aliens told them we have to keep our corn subsidies in place at their current levels, the aliens aren't really my problem. The corn subsidies are and, if the person across the table from me can't negotiate with their aliens, I haven't been handed an ultimatum -- I've been handed a bargaining chip. "Fine, you can have your corn subsidies but, all due respect to your aliens, that's going to cost you. Let's talk about welfare for dependent children."

If, on the other hand, they sit down across the table from me and tell me that their aliens have commanded them not to negotiate with anyone who doesn't believe in aliens -- well. Sorry, dude. We actually have a rule about that. See above re first amendment.

The mistake most people make around all this stuff is to assume that their beliefs make more sense. Yours don't. They may be less funny to fewer people but, whoever you are, you take a certain number of things on faith. The miracle of American democracy is that it has a built-in tool for allowing people with disparate beliefs to be on the same side. I know those Christians all think I'm going to hell about fifty different ways, but that's between them and their God. To me, up to a certain point, they're just other Americans. Like a lot of Americans, they're crazy and, arguably, kind of dumb. But I can work with that and, honestly, I don't have a lot of respect for anyone, who calls themselves an American, who can't.

@point x point synopsis. well, first, i'm not sure what you mean by accepting what they want to do. i certainly never said that, i don't see where judah said it either.

first, it's bad policy to judge any person based on a standard. this comes up often on slog so there's really no reason to rehash it here and now.

but what i was getting at is that they have numbers, thus political pull.

for instance, many people do not understand that a "civil union" does not grant all the same rights as a "legal marriage". to understand this misconception of the religious right makes it much easier to communicate the significance of "marriage", and that while it's a word, it's not just a word.

not for all, of course, but for many.

eh, ignore what i just said and read judah @28.

you can't decide for everyone, because, eventually you will run into someone you disagree with. so we allow freedom.

you also cannot force common sense on people. democracy works when the people are ready for it. and people will not let go of religion until they are ready -- forcing this will never work.

to assume people are backwards because of the environment they grew up in can be rather counterproductive.

but then again, as i said at the beginning of this, judah seems to present these ideas in a much more cohesive manner than i do.

So if you lay the actions of some religionists at the feet of all religionists, you're a bigot. If you lay the actions of some atheists at the feet of all atheists, then you would be the Pope.

Questions?

yo Judah,
okay,
"because we're not negotiating with them about their religion, we're negotiating with them about civic obligation and our shared political future: schools, roads, food production, fiscal policy, trade policy, and so on. We don't need to argue religion and we don't need to refuse to argue religion on our own agenda: the Constitution gives us all the justification we need.

when they leave it(their sky fairy reverence)completely off the table and don't try to influence, then sure thats a different matter. they don't, it's not in their programming; and as to the leaving it up to the constitution, well you can wank off about that as much as you want, but historically it's been working much better for the haves and the religious than it has for the nons..
look it up if you dont belive me.

ahhh negotiation. where to start?
well first I would say it's a matter of framing your terms, and when the other side names their terms, and those terms are less than rational, or downright wacked. I'd say it'd be better not to engage them in the crazy. Like, not use the bible as justification of anything...ya know?

"The mistake most people make around all this stuff is to assume that their beliefs make more sense. Yours don't"

nope no ones do, never will. I'm fine with that, but giving credence to people only on superstision and wish fantasy, seems short sighted and dangerous, to us and those that may not be in their fold.
It has happened before, and we can speak out and (hopefully)not let it happen again.

You can't reason with crazy.

P.S. Does anyone else think it would be cool to hang an "I-69" sign on the bedroom wall? I would think Robertson would go nutso on thhat one, not I-35.

thanks @ 31 for the link.

nad since i've gotten drunk and myspellled two much, imz done.
but anywhoO.

suck it jesus.

The mental illness called religion is getting worse in the US huh? Just completely out of control.

Mr Poe @2

I want to add something; about seven months ago Judah said I was an idiot for saying it's okay to be bigoted against people like these.

It is. It totally is. I hate these people. All of them. I want them dead.

Thank you.

Yeah, but Judah's a fucking dick. I mean really, this non-judgmental, all beliefs are equal crap that he's spewing is just that, it's pomo moral relativistic crap spouted by someone who doesn't have the balls to make judgments of his own and tell these people that they're full of shit. The negotiation process that he describes is short circuited by the fact that the people he talks about negotiating with don't play by the same rules as the rest of us. Christoids don't recognize being a non-Christoid as a legitimate state of being and therefore will consider any bargain with non-Christoids to be null and void because keeping their word is less important than worshipping Jeebus.

As far as "not forcing common sense" on these people I have no interest in forcing that most uncommon of things, common sense on them, I just want them to leave me the fuck alone and not shove their stupid Christoid bullshit down my throat. And if the rapture happened tomorrow and these ignorant fucks were sucked up to Heaven by God's Celestial Shopvac then so much the better.

Yeah, but Judah's a fucking dick. I mean really, this non-judgmental, all beliefs are equal crap that he's spewing is just that, it's pomo moral relativistic crap spouted by someone who doesn't have the balls to make judgments of his own and tell these people that they're full of shit.

Yeah, you've got me all figured out. I'm a big fucking dick, but I don't have the balls to be mean to people. Such a bundle of contradictions.

You're confusing ambivalence for approval; I don't judge their belief system because I don't care about it. Their evangelizing doesn't offend me because I don't take it personally and their condemnation doesn't annoy me because it doesn't intimidate me; I don't need their approval or the things that come with it, so who cares what they think of my lifestyle? I just need to work with them and, to do that, I just need to respect them enough to ignore their bullshit.

The live-and-let live attitude I pitch in dealing with these people is an appeal to progressives to climb the fuck down off their intellectual high horse and try to actually advance our agenda, instead of going around being all Dennis Kucinich about shit all the time: "I was right. Sure, I'm such a superior dick that nobody will listen to me, but you should let me run things anyway, because I was right."

So congratulations on being right, fucknut. I'm going to try and get some things done, and when the economy improves or civil rights improve or the rhetoric of the far right becomes more inclusive and less fanatic or the war ends or whatever, you can pretend that your boundless fucking superiority finally won over the savages to your way of thinking. It doesn't make any difference one way or the other because, while assholes like you are a dime a dozen on the streets of Seattle, you're basically a tiny fraction of a percentage of the population of the country as a whole so, when all's said and done, your opinion counts for fuck all in the grand scheme.

But hey, good work on the Shopvac joke. That was, like, totally ironic and shit.

"Purity sieges"??? Maybe we can all stop arguing with each other and realize how seriously scary these people are. The crazy bucktoothed woman was ID'd as a "prophetic intercessor." WTF? Like she's going to make Jesus come back sooner? People who think they can do that are happy to overthrow the government before breakfast and kill all the infidels by lunch. I'm a Christian but these people make me want to send the lions back into the coliseum.

I grew up not far from I-35 in OKC and there's no way around it: these people are batshit crazy and anyone who is not a creation-theorist theocrat needs to abandon the "narcissism of small differences" on display above. Only then can we send these people back to the hills and hollows where they retreated after the Scopes fucking monkey trial. Ever since Reagan won we've coddled them and nodded politely as they "slay people in the spirit." The past 25 years have been one long "purity siege" and it is high time that we all laugh at them and fuck in the streets until they go home.

Anyone have anymore doubts that this country has become a lunatic asylum?

These people are so very stupid that they don't realize they're being played to support a bogus NAFTA-esque highway scheme.

Fucking Retards. No wonder Robertson is a millionaire.

I don't think Judah is a dick, but I think he's profoundly wrong. I am all about tolerance of different beliefs, but NOT IF THOSE BELIEFS HURT PEOPLE. I'm sorry, but what about the young convert's poor brokenhearted fiance? What about the convert himself, who might spend the rest of his life completely confused and tortured? What about the young women scared away from an abortion clinic because their mom's best friend is outside with a damn sign? If fundamental Christians kept their beliefs to themselves and their churches I would have no problem. I myself believe some wierd shit (seriously). HOWEVER, when they take those laws to the streets with signs and books proclaiming how evil I am, when they directly attack me because of characteristics I was born with and cannot change, they LOSE that right. The first amendment protects the freedom of religion, not the freedom of actively hurting other people. Call me a bigot; I fucking hate all of them and I want to cry every time I hear about another young woman or gay being sucked into their hurtful, vengeful, seething trap of lies.

So here's the thing. If they wanted to pray for I-35 as their magic god corridor, that's their business. I don't care how much they pray for it. Hell, they can even go to it and pray there for it.

But they don't stop there, they think all of us should be praying for it too. Hence "Purity Sieges."

They're at war, how do you just ignore that. "I know that you've done some batshit crazy things before that have seriously fucked up the world and you continue to do that sort of batshit crazy stuff (GWB anyone?) plus you want all of us to be batshit crazy with you and you're at war to make that happen.

But instead of telling you to fuck off and die, I'm going to ignore all of that so we can negotiate."

Right.

Oh, and Judah:
I just need to work with them and, to do that, I just need to respect them enough to ignore their bullshit.

This is why we trade with China, no?

I am all about tolerance of different beliefs, but NOT IF THOSE BELIEFS HURT PEOPLE

And that's where you and everyone like you is a bigot and a moron: beliefs don't hurt people.

You know that thing where fundamentalist christians justify their attacks on gay marriage because gay marriage "hurts" straight marriage? Same bullshit. Those people are taking a social conflict and turning it into a legal conflict and, in the process, totally disregarding the First Amendment.

HOWEVER, when they take those laws to the streets with signs and books proclaiming how evil I am, when they directly attack me because of characteristics I was born with and cannot change, they LOSE that right.

So, here you are, ready to revoke their rights to freedom of assembly, speech and the press -- because you feel their message "harms" you. So yeah, you're an idiot and a bigot. Their agenda can only be enforced upon us in a binding way through the legal system, and the legislative process provides us with ways to counter that. Stifling the agenda before it can reach the public arena by actually revoking their right to express their ideas is, frankly, fascist and un-American.

Also, btw, that addresses your concerns about women scared away from abortion clinics and converts and fiances and all that business as well: what the Christians are doing in all those circumstances and how people react to them is, ultimately, voluntary on all sides. The mom's best friend gets to hold a sign and chant, the pregnant women gets to make a choice about blowing past her or not. But it is a choice. If pregnant women's rights are actually violated in some way: if they're fired, or physically abused, or barred from the clinic, or stalked at home or whatever, then those actions are illegal and we can take legal action against them. But our system of government pays us all the compliment of assuming that we are strong enough to be exposed to ideas that hurt our feelings in order to create a public discourse where no idea, no matter how crazy, can be barred from the marketplace of ideas.

If that's more than you can handle, I don't know what to tell you. You might try the United Kingdom or Germany; both very nice places, where the right to free expression is often discussed -- but hardly guaranteed.

Beliefs don't hurt people? I'll make a note of it, Judah.

This is nothing more than standard issue PR crap from a giant PR machine.

I've seen it a million times. You'll notice that they never have follow-ups to how successful their program has been. Two reasons for that:

1.) They aren't successful

2.) They already accomplished their purpose (generating "love offerings" for the 700 Club and all the associated ministries.

There's a sucker born every minute, darlings. That's what the 700 Club is there for.

Beliefs don't hurt people? I'll make a note of it, Judah.

And, again, that's where you're retarded.

There's a difference between believing something and doing it. Belief is a prerequisite for action, but not all beliefs lead to actions and our national ideals and our constitution explicitly protect the free expression of beliefs and opinions -- and distinguish between expression and action.

Germany doesn't have any such protections. So, for example, it's illegal to possess a copy of Mein Kampf in Germany. And, keeping in mind that I would've been deported to Poland and gassed if I'd lived there 65 years ago, I actually like Germany quite a bit. It's a cool country with a lot of good points. Great theatre scene. Good clubs. Incredible museums. But I prefer the United States, philosophically, in pretty much every respect.

And, finally, per Godwin's law, you've just forfeited the argument. Thanks for playing.

Ur welcomz.