Slog - Comments on We're Number 23!!! http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23 CNN Money just put out a list ranking the median home prices of big cities in the US. While the list doesn't account for recent housing market trends/woes, it's interesting to see where we place in the grand scheme of things. Isn't it disappointing to find out you could've purchased, like, 30 houses in Memphis or Detroit for what you paid for your Belltown condo?... Copyright 2008 Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:10:04 -0800 Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:34:17 -0800 http://www.movabletype.org/?v=3.34 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Comment by data checker Median price of a house in Seattle is just over $500,000. The median wage in Seattle will buy a house that costs just under $300,000.

I think CNN's numbers are off.

]]> data checker http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833349 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833349 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:16:16 -0800 Comment by Mr. Poe "Isn’t it disappointing to find out you could’ve purchased, like, 30 houses in Memphis or Detroit for what you paid for your Belltown condo?"

Um. No.

]]> Mr. Poe http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833356 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833356 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:19:04 -0800 Comment by maria yes, but it's memphis and DETROIT!?!? that would be like shipping me off to, oh i don't know, HELL?

]]> maria http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833358 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833358 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:19:48 -0800 Comment by jonah S @1-These are based off of last years data. I can't remember what the median house cost was last year. Obviously it's more now. I'll see if I can dig it up.

]]> jonah S http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833362 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833362 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:21:29 -0800 Comment by Matt from Denver Holy crap, that's a $140,000 jump from the price in city # 22, Chicago.

@ 1, they probably are looking at the entire metro area of each city, not just the cities sans suburbs and exurbs. Still, all these studies always seem to lowball the results somehow, don't they?

]]> Matt from Denver http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833369 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833369 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:23:09 -0800 Comment by George The bottom of the chart says this only included sales within city boundaries. Which makes the comparison sort of interesting, but not very telling about the affordability of each area. Cutting out the suburbs will of course make hollow-core Detroit appear super cheap. And make small Seattle very expensive. All this chart tells us is that there is more land within the city limits of Chicago than within the city limits of Seattle.

]]> George http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833385 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833385 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:32:33 -0800 Comment by Giffy Limited land plus being a nice place to live equals expensive homes. Fancy that.

]]> Giffy http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833397 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833397 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:38:19 -0800 Comment by Matt from Denver @ 1, per 6 I stand corrected.

@ 7, then why is LA at the top?

]]> Matt from Denver http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833415 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833415 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:46:35 -0800 Comment by DOUG. I just got back from Memphis. Cool city. Invest now.

]]> DOUG. http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833431 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833431 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:56:32 -0800 Comment by lostboy Has no one noticed yet that the list is not in order?

Here's the list in price order. We're #25.

1 Detroit, MI $75,219

2 Memphis, TN $79,000

3 Louisville, KY $92,485

4 Baltimore, MD $107,000

5 Columbus, OH $107,500

6 Indianapolis, IN $114,978

7 Philadelphia, PA $119,000

8 Milwaukee, WI $126,000

9 Fort Worth, TX $139,650

10 San Antonio, TX $143,640

11 Nashville-Davidson, TN $145,700

12 Charlotte, NC $149,500

13 Dallas, TX $162,260

14 Houston, TX $162,775

15 Jacksonville, FL $166,800

16 Atlanta, GA $178,500

17 Denver, CO $205,500

18 Austin, TX $210,373

19 Phoenix, AZ $237,000

20 Portland, OR $252,000

21 Chicago, IL $255,000

22 Las Vegas, NV $272,000

23 Boston, MA $382,000

24 Washington, DC $384,000

25 Seattle, WA $395,000

26 San Diego, CA $479,000

27 New York, NY $530,000

28 Los Angeles, CA $555,000

29 San Jose, CA $645,000

30 San Francisco, CA $765,000

]]> lostboy http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833438 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833438 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 14:59:27 -0800 Comment by JMR Has no one noticed yet that the list is not in order?

Is there a rationale for the ordering on the website or is it just a screw-up?

]]> JMR http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833442 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833442 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:05:15 -0800 Comment by Big Sven "Has no one noticed yet that the list is not in order?

Is there a rationale for the ordering on the website or is it just a screw-up?"

The screwup is on Josh's part. The list is house price divided by median income.

I wish people understood math.

]]> Big Sven http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833449 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833449 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:08:12 -0800 Comment by Tlazolteotl Fuck! I'm moving to Charleston!

]]> Tlazolteotl http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833450 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833450 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:09:28 -0800 Comment by lostboy A couple more points:

The price jump to Seattle from #24 Washington DC is $11K.

Los Angeles is third highest; San Fran takes the crown.

]]> lostboy http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833464 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833464 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:17:07 -0800 Comment by DOUG. It's affordability, stupids.

]]> DOUG. http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833472 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833472 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:23:30 -0800 Comment by Matt from Denver 10 - 14, I'm too lazy to dig into it further, but the top of the list reads, "In which cities do real-estate buyers see their incomes go the furthest?" So I'm guessing that the list is ordered that way based on the median income of each city; e.g., the median income in SF is probably higher than LA, so LA tops the list even though the median housing price is lower than SF.

]]> Matt from Denver http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833476 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833476 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:25:12 -0800 Comment by Eric F @7 said "Limited land plus being a nice place to live equals expensive homes. Fancy that."

@8 said "@ 7, then why is LA at the top?"

Probably because LA is very dense, and a nice place to live. You're thinking of your image of LA, not the reality. But this survey is useless unless it uses CMSA (consolidated metropolitan statistical areas), and LA, which has other cities hollowed out of its middle like Lesotho out of South Africa, illustrates as much.

]]> Eric F http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833481 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833481 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:28:32 -0800 Comment by Bellevue Ave Big Sven, I wish people understood English well enough to read about what the chart means.

Median Sale Price as counted by the assessor: This means the median price of homes that actually sold in 2k6. Not what the median listing price is.

Even this year Im finding figures for median income that are like 409k for king county.

now anyone that complains about median being the measure of home prices misses the point of using median.

]]> Bellevue Ave http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833485 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833485 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:31:51 -0800 Comment by Matt from Denver @ 17, I've been to LA, and no, it's not a nice place to live. But that's just my snarky opinion. San Diego, on the other hand, is much nicer, even if it's a GOP stronghold and goes up in flames every few years.

]]> Matt from Denver http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833487 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833487 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:35:15 -0800 Comment by Dougsf Memphis is pretty cool in a lot of ways, actually.

]]> Dougsf http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833491 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833491 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:36:13 -0800 Comment by Big Sven Bellevue Ave, you normally post all sorts of interesting stuff, so I'm going to resist the urge to write in asterisks and caps and swear words at you and others who are running a little slow today.

The article does indeed say "median home prices." However above that, in much larger letters, it says "In which cities do real-estate buyers see their incomes go the furthest." Incomes. Incomes. "Go the furthest."

Are you starting to see it now?

As to your statement that median incomes are $409,000 in King Co., well... hat's off to you sir. Seattle must be a lot more affluent than Issaquah.

]]> Big Sven http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833507 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833507 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:44:44 -0800 Comment by Will in Seattle @13 - my mom lives in Charleston.

I wouldn't recommend it, altho they do have some nearby surf and it is a college town.

]]> Will in Seattle http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833515 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833515 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:48:22 -0800 Comment by Big Sven WiS@22- Folly Beach rocks!

]]> Big Sven http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833529 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833529 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:52:47 -0800 Comment by Bellevue Ave No sven, I got it about the affordability but I dont think the problem is with the math, at all. I think the problem is that people are looking at median LISTING PRICE, instead of median SALE PRICE, as an indicator of what the base affordability is before income is factored.

In fact that wasnt even directed at you to begin with, so I apologize if you thought it was.

]]> Bellevue Ave http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833531 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833531 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:53:02 -0800 Comment by Bellevue Ave Even at the source that was quoted for the 500k median price NWMLS
the res+condo was less than the 500k posted, the res only was less than 500k.

The common theme...that was the closing sale price.

http://www.nwrealestate.com/nwrpub/common/mktg.cfm

]]> Bellevue Ave http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833552 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833552 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:05:49 -0800 Comment by Bellevue Ave another little bit. look at the % of closing or pending sales yoy. double digit drops, single digit appreciation in king county. housing prices are not very elastic and home owners, either reselling or new starts are not adjusting to market demand at a rate that most people want to see.

so they complain about "WHAT HOUSING MARKET SLUMP?" without realizing we had one of the best housing market booms backed on actual inflows of population to the area, and that housing prices arent adjusted on the spot due to market conditions.

]]> Bellevue Ave http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833559 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833559 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:08:57 -0800 Comment by Bellevue Ave and that's another thing that sticks in my craw (yes! I finally got to use the phrase); the home sellers not reducing their prices to meet market conditions of reduced credit qualified buyers. I understand why they dont but it's just increasing the pain they are suffering. Instead of selling for 5% less now, they are going to be selling for 5% over the next 2-3 years presenting an opportunity cost. This of course is based on the assumption a owner wants to sell. In the case of condos, they need to be much more aware of market conditions because they dont make money unless those condos do sell, where as a homeowner can sit it out and wait while still reaping the benefits of home ownership.

]]> Bellevue Ave http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833573 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833573 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:19:42 -0800 Comment by from east of miss and k-town is the redheaded step-child, per usual, behind memphisto and nash-vegas.

"k-town?"

google it.

]]> from east of miss http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833574 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833574 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:21:35 -0800 Comment by Big Sven Bellevue Ave- thanks for the clarification.

As to why people don't sell at a loss, I think a lot of people *can't*. They're up to their armpits in home equity loans and don't have the money they would lose in the sale.

]]> Big Sven http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833590 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833590 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:31:41 -0800 Comment by lostboy Ok, affordability. This bashed list is imperfect since the income info I found here seems to be grouped by metro area rather than city limits, but fwiw:

        Median      Median

        Price      Income     Ratio    City

01  $75,219   $66,700  1.13  Detroit, MI

02  $107,000   $75,800  1.41  Baltimore, MD

03  $79,000   $53,200  1.48  Memphis, TN

04  $92,485   $57,500  1.61  Louisville, KY

05  $119,000   $71,600  1.66  Philadelphia, PA

06  $107,500   $64,200  1.67  Columbus, OH

07  $114,978   $63,800  1.80  Indianapolis, IN

08  $126,000   $65,600  1.92  Milwaukee, WI

09  $139,650   $62,200  2.25  Fort Worth, TX

10  $145,700   $60,100  2.42  Nashville-Davidson, TN

11  $149,500   $60,200  2.48  Charlotte, NC

12  $162,260   $62,200  2.61  Dallas, TX

13  $178,500   $67,100  2.66  Atlanta, GA

14  $143,640   $53,700  2.67  San Antonio, TX

15  $166,800   $59,700  2.79  Jacksonville, FL

16  $162,775   $57,300  2.84  Houston, TX

17  $205,500   $71,400  2.88  Denver, CO

18  $210,373   $69,300  3.04  Austin, TX

19  $255,000   $69,800  3.65  Chicago, IL

20  $252,000   $63,800  3.95  Portland, OR

21  $237,000   $59,100  4.01  Phoenix, AZ

22  $384,000   $94,500  4.06  Washington, DC

23  $272,000   $60,100  4.53  Las Vegas, NV

24  $382,000   $80,500  4.75  Boston, MA

25  $395,000   $71,800  5.50  Seattle, WA

26  $645,000   $94,500  6.83  San Jose, CA

27  $479,000   $69,400  6.90  San Diego, CA

28  $530,000   $71,300  7.43  New York, NY

29  $555,000   $61,700  9.00  Los Angeles, CA

30  $765,000   $84,500  9.05  San Francisco, CA

]]> lostboy http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833603 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833603 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:40:17 -0800 Comment by Bellevue Ave The idiocy then is actually trying to list the house hoping there will be a sucker out there. When the pool of fish is smaller you wait until more breed. You're also paying a listing cost with a

[profit:listing fee per month x months
listed] ratio that gets worse each month you put a listing out there. If the decision is between selling for a loss and being fucked in one way vs. not selling and being fucked in almost the same way, i'd say go with not selling period and take your shit off the market.

]]> Bellevue Ave http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833617 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833617 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:48:51 -0800 Comment by Bellevue Ave the ratio is based on appreciating home prices which will happen but only if you can find a buyer and interest payments dont fuck you first.

]]> Bellevue Ave http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833618 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833618 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:50:00 -0800 Comment by Matt from Denver @ 31, from a personal perspective it's very informative that my current home (Denver) and former (Seattle) have about the same median income but a difference of about $180,000 in the median house price.

]]> Matt from Denver http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833619 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833619 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:50:06 -0800 Comment by duncan Memphis: Home of Elvis, and the ancient Greeks.

]]> duncan http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833625 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833625 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 16:57:25 -0800 Comment by Gitai It's not a surprise that it's cheaper to live where no one fucking wants to. I've known since day one that we pay a large cool tax for living in Seattle, but I think it's worth every fucking penny.

@34 Memphis was in Egypt. Are you talking about the Greeks who conquered Egypt?

]]> Gitai http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833636 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833636 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:06:25 -0800 Comment by duncan @35, no, I was just quoting David Byrne. It's a lyric from the Talking Heads song "Cities".

]]> duncan http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833641 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833641 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:13:11 -0800 Comment by duncan Did I forget to mention, to mention Memphis?
Home of elvis and the ancient greeks?
What do I smell? I smell home cooking!
Its only the river, its only the river.

(okay... back on topic now... promise, cross my heart.)

]]> duncan http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833648 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833648 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:18:02 -0800 Comment by Y.F. When I saw this I thought "Fuck, the only place I can afford to buy my own home is Memphis and Detroit".

]]> Y.F. http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833664 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833664 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 17:39:52 -0800 Comment by duncan Baltimore is looking better all the time.

]]> duncan http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833734 http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/10/were_number_23#c833734 City Thu, 25 Oct 2007 19:34:17 -0800