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Tuesday, September 4, 2007

Letter of the Day

posted by on September 4 at 12:31 PM

Here I am, still feeling a bit annoyed about the moats around the beer gardens at Bumbershoot—and stupid, stupid regulations that prevent parents from bringing their kids inside the beer garden (I can drink in front of my kid at home and in restaurants, but not beer gardens?)—when this email arrives…

We are hoping to raise awareness with you regarding NW Soberstock 2007—it is quite a story and one we hope ends with a full house on Saturday Sept 15th at Marymoor Park to enjoy great music, food and fun and allow families to come together in a venue that is different than those offered today—how many times has a parent dreaded hearing their child say “Can I go see the “place name of any band here”?” and instantly had fear—mostly due to the realization that there will be drugs and alcohol being passed around and “promoted” so to speak—our festival and future festivals will leave an option for parents to remove that fear—our show is not an AA function—it is an event that gives the community and families an alternative to the ones out there right now. We recently added Sneaky Thieves and 4 time Grammy award winner Kevin Max of dcTalk and have to admit that the artist response has been significant.

We did not have a lot of time to get this started—six months ago no one would have given me a dime—to date—we have raised 18K—some from private investors—but also from sponsors Emerald City Guitars, The Redmond Inn, Talking Rain, Fox Bowman Duarte and Lakeside Milam. Rachel and I would love to set up a time to talk with you and believe if you met us—you would feel the energy inherent in this story, we do need to get a few more breaks to get the word out and would be forever grateful if were you to help is out!

Regards,

Michael J Sasenick
Rachel Galberth
Us Productions LLC
www.nwsoberstock.com

RSS icon Comments

1

FUCK KIDS!!! I am sick and tired of people bitching "I cann't do that because they do not allow kids". You know what? If it is so damn inconvienent to have the brats: DO NOT HAVE THEM OR GET A BABYSITTER!!!

Personally, there are too many places that allow children anyway including coffee shops, grocery stores ect.

And the kids are upset they can not go? It is called "Sucks to be a kid, don't it?"

Posted by Just Me | September 4, 2007 12:40 PM
2

This is a perfect example of what's wrong with festivals in this city. Go to any other city and there is none of this provincial "keep the beer in a garden" crap. Even when you go to the Gorge you can walk around - is it just a Seattle ordinance? And then once you're IN the beer 'garden' you get chased down by the smoking nazi's if you light up.

Posted by scharrera | September 4, 2007 12:44 PM
3

How ironic. Marymoor Park is one of the few all-age music venues in the area that actually allows you to drink a beer at your "seat".

Posted by DOUG. | September 4, 2007 12:45 PM
4

If it weren't for the absolutely shittastic bands they're promoting, I don't think I'd mind a booze free concert, really. I had my fill of drunk assholes Friday night when I got dragged to Silverstone in Tacoma.

Posted by Gitai | September 4, 2007 12:47 PM
5

I will gladly think of the children when I see evidence that some of these entitled fuckers take a moment to lift their attentions away from the cell phones that are welded permanently to their ears in order to think of theirs.

Posted by Chris B | September 4, 2007 12:51 PM
6

Well, um, good for them? Seriously, after waiting in line for a non-smoking beer garden over the weekend...these people clearly overestimate the "promotion" of alcohol at local events.

Posted by Hernandez | September 4, 2007 12:51 PM
7

It was so much fun not being able to move at bumbershoot. I'm not saying "don't bring your kids," I am saying "keep them under control and leave the 5 foot wide double stroller, 24 pack of diapers, costco sized wipes, formula, 16 changes of clothes, bundle of ballons, etc. in the freaking car. They have an in an out policy, and the human caravans block the movement of foot traffic.

Posted by wisepunk | September 4, 2007 12:52 PM
8

@1: You can't take your kid into a bar, either. Or a casino.

Posted by Orv | September 4, 2007 12:52 PM
9

The no-smoking-in-outdoor-beer-gardens thing is so fucking stupid. Anti-smoking zealotry is officially running amok. And I agree about the kids thing. Too many place they can go already. I don't want them in beer gardens, where I'm drunk and stumbling around... Small humans underfoot is not a good thing after a few drinks.

Posted by Matthew | September 4, 2007 12:57 PM
10

I think that Marymoor thing would be really great if Whitney Houston was lined up as a headliner. Cause ya know, she BELIEVES the children are the future just let them grow. The only thing that could possibly put it all in to orbit would be some really great Christian rock bands. Oh we could all stand there totally sober with our hands outstretched to God while we swayed to the rock on Christian lyrics about "Oh Jeebus you are the one for me" over and over until the time for that parking lot trip for the four valiums and quick shot of tequila arrived!

Posted by Sweetie | September 4, 2007 12:58 PM
11

Wow. What's weak this week.

/Emerald City Guitars has received the last of my dollars.

Posted by LT L | September 4, 2007 1:03 PM
12

uh, dctalk is a christian band. sway away.

Posted by infrequent | September 4, 2007 1:04 PM
13

@8, Yeah, but I don't drink or gamble. So you are saying if you want to stay the hell away from those well behaved little children (have a look at them today at QFC at U-Village or Whole Foods) I have to get a drinking problem or a gamblling problem?

Posted by Just Me | September 4, 2007 1:06 PM
14

In light of the massive strollers/entitled parents walking around Bumbershoot, I have to disagree with Dan. I love kids, I have kids, but can you imagine a bunch of parents with their strollers and screaming kids running around those beer gardens? Their tipsy to shithammered parents slowly losing interest/control of their little darlings? Dan, you may be able to keep control of your kid, but I don't trust a lot of kid-owners out there to be respectful and cool in that situation.

Posted by caroline | September 4, 2007 1:06 PM
15

Soberstock? Just the name alone makes me want to vomit. Ugh.

Posted by Gimme a break | September 4, 2007 1:07 PM
16

What's Weak This Week!!

Posted by jeff | September 4, 2007 1:08 PM
17

I used to listen to DCTalk when I was a christian fundy back in middle school. Them and Audio Adrenaline. Wow those were scary times.

Posted by CBC | September 4, 2007 1:10 PM
18

the point is that we shouldn't be cordoned off in beer gardens in the first place. bumbershoot is a festival that is closed off with only 2 entrances and exits. what does it matter if you carry your beer around from one venue to another?

these rules are stupid and they don't help underage kids from drinking rather they make the kids form unhealthy attitudes to alcohol.

Posted by D. | September 4, 2007 1:13 PM
19

@1 - Coffee shops and grocery stores should ban grumpy adults. It is called "Sucks to live in a society, don't it?"

Posted by Mahtli69 | September 4, 2007 1:20 PM
20

Bogus. Lame neo-prohibitionists convinced their kids will turn to the devil if they can see alcohol being consumed. Same sort of folks who pushed for the ridiculous banishment of children at the long family-oriented Oregon Brewers' Festival (documented nicely here: http://www.brookstonbeerbulletin.com/the-olcc-vs-humanity/)

Anyone supporting this kind of "protect the children" events will not be getting a dime of my money.

Posted by Ben | September 4, 2007 1:20 PM
21

Ahhh, the anti-human crowd speaks.

Listen fuckwads, if it weren't for us people with kids, the human race doesn't continue capice? Its real fucking simple.

And if halfway intelligent people don't reproduce, then only stupid, poor, and ignorant people do. I wonder what THAT society will look like. It is NECCESARY to have society supprt families, not hurt them.

So go fuck yourself, you little pea brained urban shitbags and your wannabe artist image. I hope my kid takes a dump in his diaper while screaming at your friends gallery opening. I go to whole foods with my kids to do the unthinkable...shop for groceries. Sorry if that disrupts your in and out to pick up some dried out pekora and a chai latte, but fuck you anyway. BTW wash your hair and your tattoos are retarded.

As for you dan, you quite possibly could be the most fucked up parent I know, ostly because you brag about what a great parent you are. I have NEVER heard another parent say, "I should be able to take my kid to a beer garden". You really treat your kid like a dog or a lamp don't you.; Just something else to prop up your image. ANother accessory to demonstrate to the world you hate just how "normal" you are. But when it comes to actually sacrificing something for THEIR benefit, then you whine like a little bitch. DId you stop to think that maybe a fucking BEER GARDEN is not the place for kids? Jesus. Drunks and kids don't mix, moron...

Oh, and did you stop to think that your boy would be bored hanging out in a beer garden while daddy flirts with other drunk fools? Probably not, after all, you having a concern for the needs of another human being is about a rare as you not spreading your legs for any little pretty boy that gives you a boner. Yeah, pal, non-monogomous...your so freaking cool.

I hope you get exposed for just what a piece of human refuse you are.

Quite torturing your kid to prove to your parents that you really are a good person. Quit forcing your kid to resolve your deep seeded problems.

Posted by ecce homo | September 4, 2007 1:27 PM
22

Bumbershoot has about a dozen exits, more if you don't mind jumping fences.

Beer garden rules are put in place by the state, not city, and not Bshoot. Smoking is not allowed in outdoor beer gardens because of some bizzaro interpretation of state law by the King County smoking police.

DC Talk is a fundy Christian band. Lakeside Milam is a drug and alcohol recovery center.

The sponsors should be embarrassed to have their names attached to this lame event. Although, if the tards who will go to this show stay out of other fests then we have a good thing happening.

Posted by Frank | September 4, 2007 1:27 PM
23

@12 Thank you Infrequent! I'm not up on my Christian rock bands, but I love that commercial for that album of Christian rock music where all the people sway and stuff. It would actually be kind of fun to be really doped up on a bunch of ativan or valium and go in to one of those concerts. Just feel the Lord flow in to your through the strains of the music. Makes me want to put on a Tracy Partridge outfit and buy a tamborine!

Also, if people can afford to go to Bumbershoot than they should be able to afford a babysitter. Those double wide strollers are a hazard!

Posted by Sweetie | September 4, 2007 1:29 PM
24

My parents wouldn't take me along to bumbershoot when I was a little kid because I was too much of a hassle and too disruptive. How smart of them :-P

My older sister got to go, and I had to stay with grandma and watch the Dialing For Dollars movie on Q13.

Posted by brappy | September 4, 2007 1:32 PM
25

whatever happened to dialing for dollars, who stole my movies?

it was the damn kids with their hair and their music

Posted by vooodooo84 | September 4, 2007 1:39 PM
26

I hate having to choose between ecce homo and children-hating trolls.

My 6 and 9 year old kids went to see Great Big Sea at the zoo last month. They had a totally great time, danced and sang to all the tunes. The zoo has a beer garden. My kids didn't fuck with anybody, they didn't cry, they didn't run around, so for those of you saying kids shouldn't be able to go to any shows ever... fuck you.

I wouldn't presume to take my kids to Neumos or the Conner or the Tractor or anything like that, but there's a time and place for all ages shows.

Posted by Big Sven | September 4, 2007 1:39 PM
27

@21 Please clip some coupons, join the QFC club or whatever, but get some savings so you can afford a babysitter. This way you can leave the children at home and not torture the rest of us with them while you grocery shop. By just switching over to Safeway alone you can buy your groceries AND afford a babysitter. It's not so much that you have a right to take your kids wherever you please whenever you please it's that no consideration is shown to the other people attending the same events, eating in the same restaurants, shopping in the same grocery stores, etc... People who haven't asked you or anyone else to foist their children upon them. If you are going to claim that your children are just the most incredibly behaved little darlings that cause no ruckus while in public then I would urge you to patent it is whatever you feed them and get it out to the masses.

Posted by Sweetie | September 4, 2007 1:42 PM
28

I don't have a problem with kids. I have a problem with parents.

Posted by monkey | September 4, 2007 1:51 PM
29

Hey Sweetie,

I gotz no problem affording sitters. I just have this little thing I like to do with my kids. Its called EDUCATING them. Part of that is learning about what people do all day. Like going for walks, taking a bath, going to the park, going grocery shopping, etc...

Oh, and I never pretend that my kids are perfect. I actually enjoy it when some asshole like you shoots me a dirty looks cause my 3 year old is excited to point out to me something they think is neat.

Then again, what can I expect from a bunch of anti-life, drugged out losers who are think that thar are something special. The truth is, you will die a lonely death locked away in some institution lamenting never having had children. No one will care when you die alone, and no one will ever remember you. Pretty sad. Now go a find the next new cool thing or deviant fetish you can distract your inner meaningless with. That way, you won't ever realize what a sucking black whole your soul has become.

Oh, and just in case your parents never told you, kids do goofy shit that sometimes annoy adults.

Actually, what am I saying? You probably have like 500 people as friends on myspace, work as a receptionist or admin. assistant and are all of 25 years old. You got a few more years before you actually have to grow the fuck up.

eat me, I hope my sweet little children make you cry at night.

Posted by ecce homo | September 4, 2007 1:53 PM
30

Right on Big Sven. My kids are 2 1/2 and unborn (due in January) but I hope to take them to shows in appropriate settings (key phrase right there) when they're big enough. My parents took me to the symphony when I was 6 and I knew how to sit still and behave myself. I trust my children will be this way too.

Sweetie @ 27, I don't know when you go shopping but asking someone to get a babysitter while going grocery shopping is the height of idiocy. If you have that big of a problem with kids, here are my suggestions: a) do your shopping either when they open or just before they close; b) learn to keep your eyes open and see exactly how many misbehaving kids are around (hint: you'll see a lot more well behaved kids); and c) get professional help. It's one thing not to like kids (I didn't like them for a long time) but another thing if you feel like telling people to get a babysitter for grocery trips. It's not like Mom's going to see a movie for Christ's sake.

Posted by Matt from Denver | September 4, 2007 1:54 PM
31

@ 26 - your first sentence says it all. In this thread we get to either believe in child imprisonment or in child worship. Crap.


I can't comment on Bumbershoot since I wasn't there, so I will just say this: there are lots of good ways to raise kids, and lots of bad ways too. You cannot tell the difference from watching a family's behavior one time. So if you were raised by imperfect parents (and most of us were), or if you've ever been an imperfect parent (which most of us will be), then you have a responsibility to give other parents the benefit of the doubt in public.


That even extends to douchebags like ecce homo, who extol the virtues of bringing their kids to inappropriate events while simultaneously judging other parents for bringing their kids to other events. You still have to give them the benefit of the doubt, because if you are a parent or love someone who is, you know that nobody gets it right all the time.


StotheL


P.S. You do NOT have to give the benefit of the doubt to comments on blogs, though. ecce homo, stop being a prick about Dan's parenting - not cool.

Posted by StotheL | September 4, 2007 1:55 PM
32

@21 - Lo and behold, I agree with ecce homo. Well, at least the first half of the post where you talk about the grocery stores. You lost me with your tangent about tattoos and Dan being a bad parent. Dan is right on the money about our state's ridiculous nanny-like attitude towards alcohol. Go to Europe (or Safeco Field!), and you will see kids and beer in the same building without any problems. The irony is the tighter controls have the opposite of the desired effect (that is, the more you make alcohol into a bogeyman for kids, the more it will actually be a bogeyman when they are turned loose on the alcohol-filled world as results).

AND @27 - Kids are as much a part of society as you are. It's the fucking grocery store. Even if the kids are screaming the entire time and sitting in a putrid pile of shitty diaper, is that preventing you from getting your shopping done? Or are you unable to pick out the best produce unless the store sounds like a library?

Posted by Mahtli69 | September 4, 2007 1:57 PM
33

@32 - "as adults" not "as results". Cursed no editing!

@29 - Lo and behold, I agree with ecce homo again. Though you did lay it on a little thick. I almost feel bad for Sweetie now.

Posted by Mahtli69 | September 4, 2007 2:01 PM
34

ah, audio adrenaline! is it wrong for me to still think some of those songs are catchy?

@sweetie oh, i am familiar with the CD you refer to. only, i don't think your proposal would end up being as much fun as it sounds. it would wear off too quickly. or maybe you'd start to feel the experience was real, and the next thing you know you are clipping coupons with your kids, shopping at safeway and wondering why bumbershoot cannot be family friendly.

Posted by infrequent | September 4, 2007 2:01 PM
35

#31

How is a grocery store an innapropriate event?

I don't have any probelm with kids going to bumbershoot. I do have a problem with people thinking its a good idea for kids to hang out in a beer garden. Gallery openings are a great place for kids to go. Its quite educational, and I get a kick out of pissing of "artists" in their multi-colored stockings and hula hoops.

Kids should be in bars or abandoned by parents going to bars. Kids should be included in family outings and activities, not resigned to home where they aren't exposed to anything.

And fuck dan savage.

Posted by ecce homo | September 4, 2007 2:05 PM
36

"I hate having to choose between ecce homo and children-hating trolls."

Me too (although EH is just being a dick as usual when he goes on to rag on Dan's parenting). As someone with no children who may never have any, the militant childfree still manage to annoy the shit out of me with their myopia sometimes, and their apparent insistence that children never make an appearance in public, ever. Complaining about children being in grocery stores? Get the fuck over it!

Posted by tsm | September 4, 2007 2:07 PM
37

More importantly, this Soberstock fellow should be banned from ever using an em dash again. I think he just exhausted his lifetime supply.

He'd probably just replace them with ellipses, though...

Posted by leek | September 4, 2007 2:08 PM
38

You may think I am an idiot, but I am right.

I doubt ANY other parents on SLOG would aggree that they should be able to take their children into a beer garden. Let alone suggest that they would WANT to.

I don't drink around MY kids at home either, cause I don't want to teach bad habits. I guess Dan does.

Posted by ecce homo | September 4, 2007 2:09 PM
39

#35

that should read "NOT be in bars or abandoned by parents to got to bars."

Posted by ecce homo | September 4, 2007 2:10 PM
40

@38 - my parents occasionally took me into bars when I was a kid, in a time and place when that was still legal. I was not traumatized for life, nor do I drink heavily. Your kid will not become an alcoholic because he saw people kick back a beer now and then.

Posted by tsm | September 4, 2007 2:12 PM
41

@38 - Kids in a beer garden? No problem for this parent.

Seeing adults (including adults that happen to be your parents) drink responsibly? A good thing.

Seeing other adults (NOT including your parents) drinking irresponsibly and puking on their shoes? All part of the education that you seem to support.

I too was raised in a time and place where I could be around adults and alcohol. And I turned out fine (hic).

Posted by Mahtli69 | September 4, 2007 2:18 PM
42

@35: Grocery stores = appropriate. Gallery openings = questionable - case by case at best. And I'd argue that you're on pretty shaky territory to accuse Dan of having kids just as an accessory, when you take such obvious pleasure in using yours just to piss "of" artists at their own freaking openings.

I don't think you're an idiot, and I agree with a lot of what you're saying (like kids need to do normal things like grocery shop.) But you're tossing stones out of a glass house on the beer garden vs. art gallery thing.

Incidentally, I don't see a problem with bringing kids to an outdoor drinking establishment during the day. Especially 8+ year old kids, like Dan's. In my view, that's no more questionable than bringing them to a gallery opening to which kids aren't expressly invited. BUT I say it's up to the parents to make a judgment call and stop judging everyone else.

Posted by StotheL | September 4, 2007 2:23 PM
43

Who would want to bring children into a world that is killing itself? It sounds like child abuse to me.

Posted by Just Me | September 4, 2007 2:23 PM
44

@32: Right on the mark. Children and beer coexist peacefully at Safeco Field all summer long. People get too freaked out about underage drinking, and, in the process, help to perpetuate the bad habits of American teenagers.

Posted by Greg | September 4, 2007 2:24 PM
45

Just Me@43, try listening to "The Night I Heard Caruso Sing" by Everything But The Girl. I can't promise that it will change your mind, but I think it comes the closest to beautifully answering the question you pose.

Posted by Big Sven | September 4, 2007 2:33 PM
46

I'm so glad I spend most of my time in Munich, the one city with the only one and true beer fest, where smoking is allowed and so are the kids. No drinking age. Stupid puritanical americans.

Posted by Will | September 4, 2007 2:35 PM
47
Listen fuckwads, if it weren't for us people with kids, the human race doesn't continue...

Wait. Is that a bad thing?

Posted by keshmeshi | September 4, 2007 3:13 PM
48

Wow, Ecce I hope you talk that way around your children, just to, you know, show them what an IDEAL EXAMPLE of adult parenting you're instilling in their impressionable little minds. At the rate your going, I can just as easily imagine YOU dying, lonely and forgotten by offspring who long ago dissavowed any knowledge of their genetic relationship to you. I mean, which is worse; dying alone with no children? Or, dying alone knowing your children hate your guts?

NEWS FLASH: not EVERY SINGLE FUCKING ACTIVITY ON THE PLANET must be gauged by its effect on "the cheeldren". If propagation of the species is the only rationalization you can come up with to support the concept that every human activity must somehow fall into this paradigm, then I seriously have to question your right to call out Mr. Savage's parenting skills (or relative lack thereof, in your opinion.)

You know, in CIVILIZED COUNTRIES, the quandry of whether or not a parent was allowed to take their progeny into a licensed drinking establishment wouldn't even be an issue; the entire continent of Europe has not fallen into some post-apocalyptic state of anarchy just because moma and poppy dragged little Hans or Gretel into the local "Ratskeller"; quite the contrary. Every reputable study on the subject shows that when children are exposed to an environment where responsible social imbibement is shown to be the norm, they tend to - Ta-da! - grow up to be mostly responsible drinkers themselves. Whodathunkit?

Posted by COMTE | September 4, 2007 3:13 PM
49

@48: Don't people in European cities just leave their kids in their strollers out on the sidewalk while they go in to drink? Seems like I heard that somewhere.

Posted by Orv | September 4, 2007 3:24 PM
50

Some people don't like kids anywhere because they're annoying. Others don't like kids anywhere because they're so pure and being around adults will harm them.
Both groups are wrong (and creepy).

Posted by Poster Girl | September 4, 2007 3:26 PM
51

Any chance all you kid haters could start wearing armbands so I could give a wide berth around your negativity? I'll keep my kids away from it too, win/win.

Posted by jkjk | September 4, 2007 3:33 PM
52

Wait. Would there still be weed at this event? Please?

Posted by Katelyn | September 4, 2007 3:44 PM
53

The absence of strollers and diaper bags, or the clear presence of an alcohol-induced hang-over should be a sufficient "tell", jk jk.

Posted by I LOVE KIDS - PANKO-COATED & DEEP FRIED | September 4, 2007 3:45 PM
54

@ 29 "Now go a find the next new cool thing or deviant fetish you can distract your inner meaningless with. That way, you won't ever realize what a sucking black whole your soul has become."

I hate to feed the troll, but... I just loved this comment because I think exactly the same thing about many people with kids (not all, of course) -- kids distract from their inner meaninglessnes. I have nothing else going on in my life to give me meaning, so, voila, a baby! Instant purpose in life!

Posted by Julie | September 4, 2007 3:51 PM
55

Drinking around kids is awesome! Once you've had a couple drinks you notice that kids are more spontaneous and fun than the story-telling bores you came to the beer garden with. They might even get you off your ass and dancing or doing a magic trick or pitching a baseball. And stressed-out parents, once buzzed, often like their little angels better. And as for the hipster douchebags who don't even want kids in grocery stores: your girlfriends like kids and want to have them, just not with dumbasses like you.

Also, Dan is a great parent.

Posted by ROAG | September 4, 2007 3:51 PM
56

@54: Well, yeah. I feel like there are a lot of people who, once they reach adulthood, throw up their hands and say, "Well, my life turned out like shit. Time to have some kids and live vicariously through them, instead!" It's like a do-over. I certainly don't think Dan Savage is in that category, though.

Posted by Orv | September 4, 2007 4:15 PM
57

Actually #53 some people can choose not to have kids and still not be wildly unevenly angry about their existence. Honestly before I had kids I was more charmed by other people's than I am now. I don't have dogs, but I don't seethe about how they shouldn't be in public.

Posted by jkjk | September 4, 2007 4:17 PM
58

@56. Agreed. I know plenty of people on both sides of the fence - people without goals of their own in life who have kids as a substitute vs. people who have rich, purposeful lives who want to share them with children of their own. I hope when I have kids that I am the latter...

Without knowing either of them personally, of course, Dan gives the impression of the latter and our dear ecce homo gives the impression of the former.

Posted by Julie | September 4, 2007 4:25 PM
59

Christian rock without alcohol is like a root canal without Novocain.

Posted by Giffy | September 4, 2007 5:08 PM
60

Jeebus, people, some of y'all need to mellow the hell out. I happen to like having an adults-only refuge at festivals. Most of the time, I don't seek it out, because I'm not some frothing-at-the-mouth child-hater. Then again, there are plenty of times I'd like to kick back with a beer without hearing glass-shattering shrieks or "No, Brittany, don't do that, honey. Brittany, put that down. Now, Brittany..." endlessly. Actually, it's mostly the teenagers I want to get away from at festivals; the little kids are usually fun.

I fail to see what's so horrible about some venues being adults-only. It's not like I'm saying EVERYTHING should be adults-only. Then again, I do think you should be able to carry your beer around the festival without the Morality Police descending upon you en masse. But, please, keep the underage out of the beer gardens for those of us (many of us parents who left the kids at home or with sitters for the day) who like 'em the way they are.

Posted by Geni | September 4, 2007 5:35 PM
61

Oh, Ecce! I wuv oo!

I have a beer or two in front of my kid at Safeco field. In Munich, a town I love, he comes to the beer gardens with me -- beer gardens that have play equipment and swing sets in the middle of them, because the Germans believe that children belong in beer gardens. No one gets shit-faced in front of my kid -- not me, no Terry, not friends. But we drink from time to time (and what better time than at a festival?), and he's learning how to drink, and drink responsibly, watching us drink and drink responsibly.

Okay, I'm off for home! Terry made pasta for dinner -- from scratch! -- and we're going to sit at our kitchen table and eat dinner with DJ. He's going to have a glass of milk, we're going to share a bottle of wine. And we'll talk about his day, my day, and school starting tomorrow. And then, when he goes to bed, we break out the meth pipe and get online and invite strangers over for unprotected, anonymous sex--you know, a regular Tuesday.

Posted by Dan Savage | September 4, 2007 6:14 PM
62

LOL. Dan Savage. Your post @61 made me like you again.

Posted by Katelyn | September 4, 2007 6:38 PM
63

i was kind of missing ecce homo for a minute there, thanks for bringing back your alter ego, dan. ;)

i tried to blam the possible incoherence of this post on a prescription drug, but the new spam filters would not allow it. ah well.

Posted by erin | September 4, 2007 7:23 PM
64

This doesn't have to be an issue of the kid-haters vs. breeders. Some kid-haters shoot a hairy eyeball to any kid making any noise anywhere--they need to tone it down or only go out after bedtime. Likewise there are breeders who do nothing to control their out-of-control kids and take them to places they (those particular undersocialized kids) have no business being. Then there are good kids who can go anywhere anytime and not bother anyone (maybe Dan's lucky enough to have one), and I welcome them because, well heck, kids are fun to watch, kind of like watching a dog play frisbee. But there are plenty kids who get dragged to inappropriate places when they are tired, hungry, bratty, sick etc and act like little tyrants thereby pissing off lots of people who end up demanding adult-only events (or the caged-in haven of a beer garden). Sure, the hairy eyeballs can use a good shave, but parents of the out-of-control need to get a sitter, take the kid home when he's had enough, or if they can't bring themselves to do either of those, try listening to some of the many fine recordings of concerts available free and legally online from the comfort of your own home.

Posted by Sam | September 4, 2007 7:24 PM
65

Kids are annoying.

Adults are annoying.

Drunk adults are far more annoying than kids.

Children cannot be sequestered in "child-only" settings until they reach 18. They are humans also. Just like everyone has to deal with adult jackasses, everyone also needs to cope with annoying kids.

Posted by mla | September 4, 2007 7:53 PM
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And the first adults who need to cope with annoying kids are their parents.

If that happened more often, the rest of us wouldn't have nearly so much to gripe about, now would we?

Posted by COMTE | September 4, 2007 8:20 PM
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You can't force an entire group of fellow citizens out of society simply because you personally think they are annoying.

I gripe about a lot of people doing annoying things-I don't focus on a random group and try to banish them altogether. That's discrimination.

Posted by mla | September 4, 2007 8:50 PM
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The Kevin Max you will see at the concert is a lot different than the Kevin Max you might remember from dcTalk... just listen to his solo stuff... with Adrian Belew of King Crimson and old Genesis... this guy has matured.

Posted by Mark | September 4, 2007 9:17 PM
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Ecce, just as you like to parent with a huge stick up your ass and are free to do so, most of us in the civilized world, especially Europe, occassionally like to parent with a glass of a beer or wine in our hand. It's not a big deal, happens all the time, when Dad get's home from work, at dinner time, BBQs, family gatherings and vacations, and kid-friendly parties.

We feel that it's stupid and condescending of the city to tell full grown adults that we have to choose between bringing our children and having a drink. It's a false choice, imposed by assholes with sticks in their asses like you, who don't feel complete unless they are judging other people's parenting skills.

Posted by Sean | September 4, 2007 10:02 PM
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COMTE @66:
As a former smug, kid-hating hipster who is now a father of two, I know just where you are. I also know you are woefully naive if you think that parents can or should have some obligation to prevent their kids from annoying smug hipsters.

Yes, kids can be annoying if you aren't used to them. They don't listen to reason. They shout and make a lot of noise. They break things. They think only of themselves. They hid behind mom's legs when you try to smile at them. They're almost as bad as smug hipsters. But you can't remove their annoying traits without taking (by today's standards) drastic and damaging authoritarian measures, measures which in the long run would probably turn them into asshole conservatives.

Take my advice - grow up, accept kids for what they are, and appreciate parents for somehow managing to deal with these annoyances every day for years, sometimes even at 5:00am.

Posted by Sean | September 4, 2007 10:18 PM
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They're your kids Sean. If you can't control them, why should the rest of us have to put up with your inability to properly and judiciously discipline them? I certainly don't have the right to do that - because, duh, they're not my kids - but that doesn't absolve you of the responsibility to do so when you take them out into the public sphere. The "kids will be kids" canard doesn't cut it. If your child breaks something in a store, would you reasonably expect them to just shrug it off? Of course not, but that's the tone I frequently hear from parents when their children willfully (and often quite manipulatively) create a disruption in a public place, and the parent self-centeredly allows the disruptive behavior to continue instead of doing the right thing by taking the child out of the situation. That's just self-indulgence on the part of the parent, and I don't see any reason why I or anyone else should have to put up with it.

Look, no reasonable person expects a child to behave like an adult, which is usually what parents are implying when they tell a healthy and otherwise rambunctious five year-old to "act your age", and there are plenty of situations and environments where it is entirely appropriate, nay encouraged, that kids BE kids. But by the same token, we DO expect the parents, as the functioning authority figures, to instill in their children the notion that when their behavior is inappropriate and disruptive - and that's the key here - there will be consequences.

After all, if some children can behave appropriately in public, and do so without either coersion or the use of force, then it's not terribly unreasonable to expect that most children not suffering under some bio-chemical or severe physical or psychological condition can do likewise.

Posted by COMTE | September 5, 2007 12:19 AM
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COMTE, I honestly can't tell what you and Sean are even arguing about at this point.

Net net: should parents take responsibility when their kids act inappropriately in public? Of course. My six year old and I leave the restaurant if he can't "act his age" (by which I mean 6- able to sit in one place for a half hour- not 18. Most parents know what's age appropriate behavior.)

Should the fact that some percentage of parents don't take responsibility for their kids (kid-hating hipsters might say 80%, I might say 20%) mean that me and my kids are barred from any and all situations where we might run into hipsters? Of course not.

Posted by Big Sven | September 5, 2007 2:33 AM
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If you have well behaved children and they turn in to "asshole" conservatives... that tells me that being an "asshole conservative" is the way to go. It goes to show that children that misbehave grow up to be liberals and lack direction and discipline... now I understand it all. I am glad I am a conservative and that I am not embarassed by my children in public.

Posted by Mark | September 5, 2007 6:54 AM
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That's a pretty tenuous leap of logic there, Mark. Care to back that opinion up with any actual facts?

Look, kids are kids, no doubt about that. And kids acting like kids in kid-appropriate settings isn't a problem. The problem comes when parents bring kids into environments, whether exclusively adult-oriented or not, for which the child isn't properly socialized, and then don't do a thing to invoke corrective behaviors. The kids get away with being disruptive because their parents either lack the skills necessary to discipline them, or worse don't get that the behavior is disruptive to others in the first place.

And in either case the typical response of the parents is become defensive when the rest of us refuse to tolerate behavior in their children for which they themselves have essentially relinquished responsibility.

That's the bottom line, and that's why some of us become irritated when such parents insist it is OUR obligation to give up our rights as adults, in order to "tolerate" the rude behavior of their children.

Posted by COMTE | September 5, 2007 9:12 AM
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I love the response to this letter - never even thought it would be posted but amazed at the negativity surrounding it - Adrian is the most amazing performer I have seen in recent days and that includes Radiohead, Peter Gabriel, Alice in Chains, Roger Waters, Tool - the reason for the show is partially selfish - I cannot drink or drug - and so I needed a safe environment - I also want to see what the energy is in an entirely attentive crowd withour bottles getting thrown, fights, puking - the fun that is somewhat entertaining for the first 100 concerts I went to - I hope that perhaps minds open and some of you come and see this show - it is not christian - it is not anything more than a concert where music is the centerpiece - no altered states - and a beautiful opportunity to actually remember the next day!

Posted by Michael Sasenick | September 8, 2007 7:48 PM
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This pisses me off – This is not about bringing babies in diapers being pushed around in strollers offending all the non parents who would prefer for you to hire a nanny rather than attend a concert where children are present sans beer gardens. This is about enjoying today’s artists in an environment that focuses on the music and allows the community to come together and experience a different kind of energy. I have two adorable girls who are the most important thing in my life and I look forward to
going to this concert with them to sing, dance and play as music nurtures their self-esteem while
encouraging creativity, self-confidence and curiosity. This is about going to a concert with your kids and not having to put up with drunken middle aged men sizing up your 14 year old daughter with 32.C tits who looks like she’s 18 – and those parents who want to take their children into the beer garden be prepared to deal with delusional drunk’s desperately trying to hit on your child - this isn’t about teaching your children how to drink responsibly or about not having liquor – it’s about going to an event without worrying about the drunk debauchery and drugs being pushed down their throats - Dan and all you beer garden drinking fools wanting to bring your kids into the beer garden stay home or go to a Brittney Spears concert where drinking is allowed and show em a real good time and how to emulate that grown up in a great environment with adults who drank responsibly just like you kinda role model– Linsday, Nicole, Paris, and Brittney all need more friends like you Dan!– it’s lonely in Jail especially for 24 hrs. And Drug treatment is a waste of time…By the way Adrian Belew is ranked 42nd on Rolling stone Magazine's list of the 100 greatest guitarist’s of all time. He is a member of prog-rock heroes King Crimson, and has played with the likes of Robert Fripp, David Bowie and Frank Zappa ,joe cocker, peter gabriel,herbie hancock,nine inch nailsand many others, Belew is accustomed to being accompanied by world-class talent. His Power Trio is backed by the brother-sister rhythm battery of drummer Eric and bassist Julie Slick, 20 and 21 respectively.Review from the Washington Post - On paper it seems cuckoo; in concert it was nutty fun. the trio muscled through such space-age chamber pieces as "Big Electric Cat" and "Thela Hun Ginjeet" with cool ferocity; Julie, as alluringly remote as Talking Head bassist Tina Weymouth, and Eric, who frequently laughed out loud after particularly busy drum solos, matched the boss note for note, causing frequent exchanges of grins across the stage. It was clear the three were having a blast while putting across their best effort.Belew, who played a futuristic-looking Parker Fly guitar, made use of the daunting number of effects pedals at his feet, changing the sound of the guitar several times during a single tune. But the technology never overshadowed the organic nature of the numbers, and the young adults playing with him provided alarmingly mature soul.

Posted by Rachel G | September 9, 2007 12:29 AM
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I must admit that after the first 20 posts of either the childhating a$$holes or the parent taunting clever's; I started to zone out. How had that letter anything at all to do with diaper changing stations and kiddie carnivals? It was about a festival that's being thrown by some pretty decent artists. Not to mention some possibly up and coming artists. Honestly, you go to the High Dive to get wasted and savor bands you'll never hear about again. So then is it really incredibly out of the question to go to a festival with a plethora of bands and some artists that're actually very well known?

Music, isn't that what it's about?

Posted by Amber | September 9, 2007 1:05 AM
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I'm going to go to Soberstock just so I can enjoy a little music without pretentious whiners like some of you people. You don't like it? Don't go. Get off your high horse and think about other people for once.

Posted by Dawdler | September 10, 2007 8:55 AM
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Hi there. I may be going out on a limb here, but I think the 'kid' thing's been overblown a bit. The article was about a concert with no alcohol. Big Deal; I can enjoy a show without beer. And the bands performing appeal to adults, not 'kids', and may appeal to some teenagers (like TU, who toured with TOOL). It doesn't really sound like a 'kid' show; the Telly Tubbies will not be performing. You know, thinking more about it, I kinda doubt too many strollers will be there. By the way, Adrian is rad if you don't know his work.

Posted by Hez | September 13, 2007 12:50 AM

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