Comments on Got Protest? Who Cares.

This is just a little theory from my own personal experience, but I think that, as someone who both partook in the rising tide of street protest in the late 90s and witnessed firsthand the streets of NYC on 9/11, the sexiness of radicalism and street mayhem went away on that day. It no longer seemed romantic.

Protest changes nothing.

Want to stop the Iraq War? Buy a hybrid or plug-in hybrid and boycott firms that help Red Bushies.

Actions. Not words.

Gosh, it's almost as if the anti-war movement would be more effective if it organized itself into voting blocs and then committed significant quantities of capital to specific economic and policy goals. But that would require people to spend at least some of their time and money doing something other than whatever the fuck they feel like doing from one moment to the next.

But that can't be right. Because we don't want it to be.

or perhaps don't protest at teh drop of a hat for any goddamn reason taht rubs you the wrong way. the power of the protest is muted when it's done all the time.

The L.A. riots of April 1992 weren't exactly sexy with radicalism either. It's basically a case of learned helplessness part of which is rooted in the failure of the 60s protests to end the war. The protests succeeded in making its targets unpopular, which was worth it alone, but it didn't break the threshold.

The only protest that is going to make the President of the United States change a policy is a violent protest that threatens the interest of the President and his/her party.

And that's not going to happen in the near future. Perhaps later, but not now.

This is specifically war policy, though. As far as civil rights go, protests have paved a lot more ground successfully, in comparison.

Silly Josh. Don't you know that it's WEARING ORANGE that will topple the Bush administration these days?

Seriously, I still think the answer is in the ballot box. The problem with the Democrats is that they still don't have enough true liberal-held seats to really win the toe-to-toe with the GOP - the small but still too numerous conservative blue-dog Democrats are holding them back.

I witnessed 9/11 from the street and worked in One World Trade. For a few months after, I just wanted to see Bin Laden brought to justice. But, when the drums started for Iraq, I protested the war. There were huge protests in NYC, especially around the time of the RNC convention, and I felt it was my duty to get out and show some numbers in the streets. That is still true, but I think the purpose would be to keep the heat on the Democrats. I don't understand how you can write a piece saying that it doesn't matter. Complacency is aiding and abetting. If you watch TV, it's pretty easy to forget that this country is fighting in two countries. People need to be reminded that something evil is being done in their names.

It's not the only means, but doing nothing is not going to end the war. Not to mention that the Neocons would love to expand the war into Iran. Do you think that doing nothing is going to dissuade them? What is the alternative to protesting that you are suggesting Josh?

Oh, and we need to very seriously push primary opponents against the Brian Bairds of the world.

@2 - Screw hybrids. Stop moving 3000 lbs of machinery every time you want to move a single 150 lb person from point A to point B. That throws away 95% of your efficiency right off the top. All the hybrid does is improve on the remaining 5%, which is like putting a band-aid on a shrapnel victim.

@1 - The sexiness of radicalism went away when Bush got elected, though 9/11 did make it worse. The Left is more energized when Democrats are in office because they feel 1) the Democrats are betraying the lefty causes that the pretend to support during campaign season, and 2) Democrat leaders are more likely to actually listen and change policies (even if they're not). The Republicans don't give a shit what the Left thinks and aren't afraid to say it. Do you think the 1999 WTO protest in Seattle would've been as huge with a Republican administration in office? I don't.

I don't think doing nothing will dissuade them. Thing is, I don't think protesting will dissuade them either. Volunteering for good organizations, giving time and money to people who can work to make a difference, that I can respect.

Going out and marching in protest is symbolic, and that's all. I don't think it ever changes anyone's mind.

Protest this, boycott that.
Vote for him, vote against her.
Enroll in this, volunteer there, write to the government official of your choice.

Spin in circles to the music provided by the masters.
Dance in their beautiful ballroom.

Whatever they want, they will have.

Get too greedy, try too hard to deny their will and the music will stop, the buffet will be closed, and you will awake from your illusions of self-empowerment.

don't pay any federal taxes, that is the only way to protest.

tsm @6:

No, no, no. Not orange. Pink. Haven't you been watching the Patraeus report? It is "Code Pink" doing the protesting leg work.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think "Code Pink" is the worst name for a protest group ever. Sounds like the Q Patrol or something. Who could possibly take a protest seriously by a group called "Code Pink"?

@9 - so long as you fail to realize that 95 percent of the commuting traffic is in cars - mostly 17 mpg or lower cars - and that switching to a 50+ mpg hybrid or 100+ plug-in hybrid would have more impact than anything else - you're doomed.

Get. Real.

Look, I love transit too. My son has a bus pass for school. I used to walk him to school when he was in primary and middle school. I walk to work most days.

But pretending everyone else will change is ... interesting. And not going to happen.

@13 is right about Pink tho. A friend of mine in SF works for Code Pink. And they show up in pics, which is more than most protests will ever do.

Well, face facts. As long as we have a presidential system which allocates the power to start a war to a single individual, protest will largely be useless, and the president will be the sole decision maker on whether or not we go or stay in war. The War Powers Act is about as sturdy as a doily, and Americans like war. Protests will do nothing. We'd need a massive constitutional overhaul before we could stop war through popular demand.

We have the internet now. We can fight back in ways we've never been able to fight back before. Why spend an afternoon marching down main street when you can spend it collaborating with people to get better candidates elected and to pressure the media to do their own jobs better?

@9 - Driving a hybrid is like electing a Democrat. It's not going to solve any problems. In fact, it is still part of the problem, and is leading us to doom, but, granted, it is better than driving an SUV (Republican).

95% of the commuting traffic is in cars because there is no alternative. Every other developed country in the world has a decent rail system. Why not us? The only reason is our leaders, and the citizens who elect them, lack the political will. We coughed up a half-trillion dollars for Iraq. What if we had spent some of that money on modern mass transit?

PS @9 - If we had any cojones at all, we would charge tolls on every road, and tax the shit out of gas to fund modern mass-transit.

The day I was walking out of the parking garage of my building at work and some teenager in an anti-bush t-shirt hopped up from the sandwhich board with listed prices with a smug look on her face and a sharpie in her hand. Her act of anti-war protest art? Crossing out the word "republic" and writing "democrat".

I think this sums up the whole movement nicely.

@17,

And because people are lazy. Congestion could be reduced a great deal if people would carpool, but gas is still so cheap that most commuters won't even bother.

@17 - oh give it a rest. No one cares what you write in your manifesto and while you whine about transit you fail to realize you'd do far better not supporting things that encourage people to commute to work long distances. Like that RTID thing that just makes it worse while ignoring the real dangers on our bridges.

Again, if you want to protest, do something then write a book about it. But marches of a million people will just get reported as 50,000 by the media anyway ... far better to send 5-6 people to a hearing and get more coverage on the news.

@21 - You're going in circles. This entire discussion started with you suggesting that we all buy a hybrid. Now, you're warning us of the dangers of supporting things which encourage long commutes? (like, perhaps, driving a hybrid with "good" gas mileage?)

Meanwhile, my suggestions that we build better mass transit, charge road tolls, and raise gas taxes is a manifesto? Who do you work for, Ford?

Mahtli69 wrote:

Every other developed country in the world has a decent rail system. Why not us? The only reason is our leaders, and the citizens who elect them, lack the political will.

I disagree. I think another reason is that we Americans live in a corporatocracy, and those who profit more from automobiles being built and fueled than from our nation building and maintaining a responsible, sustainable transportation system are the ones who call the shots here.

End corporate personhood!

I fixed one of the posters for tomorrows protest:
http://sgiffy.livejournal.com/

Demonstrations and protests did help stop US involvement in Vietnam. The politicians reduced troop levels which allowed the North to prevail. While the war was unwinnable, a half a million US soldiers, sailors and marines could and did keep the NVA and VC from taking over Saigon, which would have continued indefinitely.

This entire discussion is more useless than protests.

Gomez: Yup, this discussion is actually LESS than action.

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