Comments on Get Your Anti-Semitism Straight

Oh boohooey, semantics Nazi.

Even wikipedia calls it a "program"

"The Holocaust (from the Greek holókauston from holos "completely" and kaustos "burnt"), also known as Ha-Shoah (Hebrew: השואה), Churben (Yiddish: חורבן), is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist regime in Germany led by Adolf Hitler.[2]"

what is Semitism? and what is the synthesis?

I think the first several references in this post are supposed to be "pogrom," not "pogram," and of course not "program."

And really, pogrom might not be the preferred term for the holocaust, but it does mean the same thing.

pogrom - noun - an organized massacre of a particular ethnic group, in particular that of Jews in Russia or eastern Europe.

Synonyms - massacre, slaughter, mass murder, annihilation, extermination, genocide, holocaust, etc..

This seems like a simple case of different use of language (by a non-English publication), rather than any kind of slight.

@1,

Wikipedia calls it a "program"

AFP calls it a "pogrom."

Make a note of it.

@4 make a note of your own damn semantics. You wrote and bitched about "prgram"

"The Holocaust has been downgraded by the French press to a “pogram.”

Unless the article is quoting Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, which it doesn’t appear to be, the AFP (Agence France-Press) label the Nazi genocide a pogram. "

Which are you bitching about? Program or progrom?

Please @3, thank you. As a Jew, I'm less disturbed by Ahmadinejad's nuttiness than I am by the fact that someone who I thought was (A) Jewish and (B) a professional journalist can't correctly spell the word "pogrom." But then I guess that's because I live in Seattle and not Tehran.

(Yeah, this must make me a spelling Nazi. My pleasure.)

ETA: glad to see this was corrected.

Can you just not spell, Seattle98104?

Josh was bitching about the french use of the word "pogrom", not "program" or "pogram" or "progrom" or "prgram"... I don't think I've ever seen someone bitching about someone else's use of a word mispell that word three different ways in the same fucking post.

Basically, Josh's issue is the scale of the words. In English, a pogrom (note the spelling) is a religiously/ethnicly charged riot where one group targets another. Historically, pogroms took place in Russia, or Eastern Europe, and were aimed at Jews.

These riots were usually relatively small affairs. One town, one region, one city, or one neighborhood.

The Holocaust was not a pogrom. It was a series of events that contained several pogroms. The most prominent pogrom of the Holocaust, and one of a wider scale than most, was Kristallnacht. In cities, towns, and villages across Austria and Germany riots broke out and synagogues, homes, and lives were destroyed.

Basically, what Josh is upset about is that they're using a word that lessens the events of the Holocaust. Say I were to have my entire body crushed by a bus... every bone broken, most organs punctured... and the police man who called my parents to let them know told them "Your son has been in a collision". He's deliberately lessening the trauma of what happened to me.

I don't know if the French writers were deliberately lessening the Holocaust, if they have different cultural associations with the words, or what... but that's what Josh is going on about.

@ phelix, I'm guessing you missed the original posting where Feit used "program" instead of "progrom".

He since edited it, and did not make a note of it in his post. So, STFU.

#3 nailed it. There isn't really a story here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pogrom#During_the_Holocaust

We all fail at spelling and I fail at basic reading comprehension. He wrote "pogram" I read "program" he meant "pogrom". But, the Holocaust was a pogrom so I'm not sure what we're arguing about here anyway.

Is this a possible difference between American versus European/French nuances to the meaning of the word pogrom?

(Does anybody posting here know anything about European variations on nuance of meaning in the word pogrom?)

What the fuck. Josh made a point, a good point.

Another few years of the government here, and the concept of the knock on the door at midnight, and the one-way ride to nowhere will be back. And effete morons who worry about the placement of vowels in French newspapers will be among the early riders in the boxcars, no doubt.

Josh- So is the Anne Franke center anti semitic? They use the same term .

"The Nazi pogrom was an organized violence against Jews, often with the support of the government"

Though I think the term refers to specific acts like Kristalnacht and others, I also beleive it has become sort of a reference to the whole Holocaust. I dont think the AFP are being anti semitic.

The memorial albums of Auschwitz Birkenau uses it as well.
http://www.sundweb.com/Auschwitz/home.htm

http://www.annefrank.com/2_students_faqs.htm

Christian, in France they don't have "trolls" as such, because virtually every assertion a French writer would make is an attempt to generate controversy and lead the reader to bickering over minutiae. Many of France's greatest thinkers would have been dismissed as mere trolls had they been in USia. Were a USian to feint by introducing subtle misspellings to draw in and confuse the unwary, on the continent, such methods are widely admired, and are in fact taught at the Sorbonne.

@13,

You answered you're own question. Pogrom describes things like Kristalnacht.

Trains and concentration camps and gas chambers go well beyond that.

I love me some France, but tap Marcel Ophuls' amazing and shocking doc 'The Sorrow and the Pity': the Vichy regime willingly and uncoerced sent more Jews to the Germans for extermination than any other European country.

Josh is the final arbitrator of truth on the matter, even if he couldn't spell it right in his original post. He said it, it must be so.

Either there was a recent rewrite to the AFP article or Josh has issues:

Ahmadinejad, who has called for the destruction of Israel and questioned the true scale of the Holocaust, earlier said he was open to meeting survivors of the devastating Nazi pogrom.

It is disturbing that AFP would make that mistake, since it was a genocide.
But considering the US Congress and the White House doesn't officially call the Armenian Genocide, a "genocide" and the ADL until two months ago (and under incredible pressure from Jewish & Armenian Americans) finally started calling the Armenian Genocide by its name (though there are signs that the ADL is backtracking on using the term AGAIN!)...we should be more understanding of our neighbors across the Atlantic.
Thankfully, the French have laws on the books to combat holocaust denial and other hate crimes.

What do you expect from nationals from a country that continued to ship jews to their deaths AFTER the liberation? What do you expect from nationals from a country who can nominate a xenophobic cretin like Le Pen?
Genocide however is also inappropriate. Strictly speaking it means the extermination of an ethnic group or tribe. So the Holocaust was attempted genocide, not genocide.
Prior to the Holocaust, "Pogrom" was the word used fo attempted genocide. Thus the Armenian Genocide of the early part of the last century was called the Armenian Pogrom or the Turkish Pogrom against Armenians until after the Holocaust.

@17: Arbiter, not arbitrator, Mr. Spelling 'Nazi'.

@16
Grant,
I'm with you. I love me some French, but I think there is a systematic downplaying both there and Here about the level of willing cooperation with persecution,ethnic cleansing, and genocide of Jews both before and after the German occupation. It wouldn't surprise me if some French writers and speaker reflected an unwillingness to face this fact by downplaying the holocaust to one degree or another.

Oh noes! They used a non-preferred nomlecature about halfway down the page!

WORLDS TINIEST VIOLIN!

Pogrom
n. An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews.

How is that not accurate???

@2 did you really expect anyone to answer you intelligently?

"the Vichy regime willingly and uncoerced sent more Jews to the Germans for extermination than any other European country."

Grant youre wrong. Yes the Vichys were genocidal Nazis and are responsible for massive crimes against jews. But the ones that sent the most jews to extermination were the Hungarians and the Arrow cross party.

And the worst of the worst puppet regimes? That would be by far the Romanians who occupied the former USSR Odessa region and are responsible for the deaths of more than 200, 000 jews. By far they were the worst Nazi collaborators. On a good note, they paid dearly when most of their divisions were wiped out in Stalingrad.

@20
True, but Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term "genocide" cited the Armenian case as a textbook example of its occurrence...you can see video footage of him appearing on US network TV in the 1950s and saying so. The footage appears in Andrew Goldberg's PBS documentary, "THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE."

Enter "define:pogrom" in Google and you get:

# An organized and often officially encouraged massacre of or attack on Jews. The word is derived from two Russian words that mean thunder.
www.chgs.umn.edu/Educational_Resources/Curriculum/Witness_And_Legacy_-_Teacher_R/Glossary__Teacher_Resource_Boo/glossary__teacher_resource_boo.html

# An organized persecution or extermination of a national, religious or ethnic minority, especially the Jews. Via Yiddish from Russian: destruction, from po- like + grom thunder.
www.rrz.uni-hamburg.de/rz3a035/ns_term.html

# An organized violence, riot, or massacre again helpless people (ie a massacre of Jewish people)
www.whsd.k12.pa.us/wh/Teachers/Arthla/fiddler_vocabulary.htm

# (po-grom'), Russ. An organized massacre of Jews.
digital.library.upenn.edu/women/antin/land/land-21.html

# An organised persecution and massacre, as of Jews in Tsarist Russia.
www.connections-exhibition.org/index.php

# An organized, often officially encouraged massacre or persecution of a minority group, especially one conducted against Jews.
www.p38lessonplan.com/termsH.html

# organized massacres or act of persecution
www.promotega.org/fld00005/wordstoknow.html

# Pogrom. An organised attack, especially against the Jews or- other minority group.
www.ronsorg.org/tableofcontents/sector9/goft.htm

# an organized attack or massacre against a group of people (especially the Jews)
schools.cbe.ab.ca/b628/social/russia/glossary.html

# organized persecution of an ethnic group (especially Jews)
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# A pogrom (from Russian: (meaning "wreaking of havoc") is a massive violent attack on a particular ethnic or religious group with simultaneous destruction of their environment (homes, businesses, religious centers). The term has historically been used to denote massive acts of violence, either spontaneous or premeditated, against Jews, but has been applied to similar incidents against other minority groups.

But of course, Josh is, as always, the decider -- in this case of word definitions.

@1

"Even wikipedia calls it a "program"

WOW! WIKIPEDIA! WOWZERS!

It is so fucking bad that some idiots take this site to be the authority on anything; ever.

The post is dumb because:

a. who gives a shit if someone calls it a pogrom- yes, it doesn't convey the scale of the Holocaust accurately. But seriously, is this the best evidence you can dig up that the French are antisemitic ?

b. Nuances and changes in translation can easily account for the issue at hand, and...

c. A slightly inaccurate story that got past editors is a pretty common occurence even for Reuters, the NY Times or the BBC, and hardly reflects the attitudes of the French press at large, which brings me to...

d. Why all the fucking outrage?

"d. Why all the fucking outrage?"

Because Josh Feit is a self righteous dick, as far as I can make out.

The Jews have suffered more than any other people in history, and WWII was the most horrific act of mankind on an innocent, minority within it's midst. No other people, ever have suffered like the Jews suffered.

We must constantly remind the goyim of their hideous dark souls that are so capable of evil. Israel should be a light to all nations, and example of a perfect society based on law and justice in which every minority group is respected and and allowed to live without intimidation.

@32, is that offensively ironic or offensively sincere?

Only the French would claim that the Jews have not suffered more than any other people on earth. I sincerely believe that Judaism is truth and that the Jewish people have a special place on this earth.

As Jews we must demand that the Holocaust be remembered as the worst event to happen to any people. Any writer or nation that ever questions anything about the Holocaust is a revisionist.

Auschwitz is as important as Sinai - because the Holocaust has changed humanity's relationship with God every bit as much as the giving of the Law. No one can deny that this is true. Therefore we must constantly defend the memory of The Holocaust and the 6 million number. Anyone who says maybe 5.5 million died, or maybe it was 8.5 million, is trying to deny Jews their history. As Jews in America today, we are the holocaust and so speaking against the holocaust is speaking against the Jewish people. 6 million is a holy number now and can never be questioned by anyone.

Issur, Josh is interested in Jews because he IS one. I am interested because I am part-Jewish (anyone who says that's not possible, let's hang out and wait until the next time someone asks if I'm from the East Coast...it happens about, oh, every other time I meet someone). What's your reason? 'Cause, you are like, OBSESSED.

Josh, I think you forgot some ellipses to indicate the part of the article you left out. Coincidentally, it was the part of the quote which used the word "Holocaust" to describe the Holocaust.

Grant, please read David Mamet's new book that urges America Jews to become more observant and hold Israel in their heart of hearts. I thought David Mamet would be against religion but he wasn't and his writing gave me back my Jewish soul. David Mamet is a genius writing plays, but as an observant Jew he really made a difference.

Grant you and Josh do a great job bashing Seattle Christians, but that's not enough. Go to shul, find the soul that God placed in you. I'm an atheist but I still believe God gave Jews special souls.

Issur, I'm still confused. Ironically offensive or sincerely offensive?

Issur, I believe your comments are ussur. Enough already.

Several people, far more educated and intelligent than I am, have called the Holocaust the biggest pogrom in history. It's not meant to downgrade the idea of the Holocaust, but merely to note that it had thousands of years worth of precedents as far as anti-Semitic acts against the Jews are concerned.

Still, if this is a direct quote from Ahmaninejad, I'd rather not give him the benefit of the doubt as far as understanding the differences between a nasty resettling in Tsarist Russia and Auschwitz.