Seems to be employing the popular tactic of calling something the exact opposite of what it is to make it more marketable, like "clear skies initiative" or "help America vote act." Ergo, "right to self-determination" is "right to be in the closet forever."

Our language is still in the fairly early stages of this progression. I look forward to the day when the process is complete and we are all speaking Bizarro language, where everything means the exact opposite of what it seems to be saying.

That would actually be more easily understood than what we have now.

"Or someone determines that God made him gay and that he doesn’t want to defy the will of God..."

You can't use that argument against them. To them it's a test from God, and a temptation from the devil. They can simply swap 'gay' with 'mass murderer' to make that point. Then they'll throw some more contradicting messages from the Bible at you.

Your last sentence is 100% correct, and Dr. James Dobson himself wouldn't be able to say otherwise.

When I first glanced at the post headline I thought it said...

Conservative Religious Group Comes Out for "Right to Righteous-Indignation"

@3: LOL

But I think I have one up on you. When I read the snippet from the article, at first I thought it said:

"...finding that it is possible, through religious MEDICATION, to change one’s sexual orientation."

For a moment I was wondering wth "religious medication" was supposed to be!

Gee, a school founded by Pat Robertson finds that prayer can change sexual orientation? What a fucking shocker. In other news, Elton John will be founding Freddie Mercury University, where studies will be conducted that determine rimming as many guys as possible will increase your lifespan and lower your cholesterol.

@5:

That makes me wonder what the school mascot would be...

Someone needs to send them an email saying "Thanks for the tip - I prayed to become gay and it worked!" That'll teach 'em.

This is a natural reaction to the "can't help it, born that way" defense.

While I personally don't care if a person chooses or is born gay (since my morality isn't based on religious dogma), its a predictable response from the Anti-Gay Crusade.

I know it shuts some people up to point out that people don't choose their orientation, but this is a battle that will have to be fought eventually. By using the 'born that way' defense, it sidesteps the issue of whether there is anything wrong with it. Which of course there isn't, but that defense is implicitly saying "I can't help the way I am born, so even if you think its wrong, accept me".

Which is noble and good, but it opens up the doors for the attack on whether it matters if you are born that way, gene therapy, etc. One day, the political stance will have to be "I don't care if you think being gay is wrong, you don't get to infringe my rights". But for now, its acceptance.

Seriously gang: I think I am going to join one of these fundie churches and tell them I really want to be straight. I would LOVE to plant myself into one of these "Programs" and expose what all this shit they are trying to prove is.

Any other gay's on here want to try this experiment?

What do you think their response would be if they were asked if praying could make you gay?

They'd say that's ridiculous, which it is, and just as crazy as praying to be straight.

@ 9,

I'd say David Schmader has pretty effectively covered it.

@7, completely agree with you. "religious determination from FOTF helped me realize my true identity and become gay!" = not the kind of publicity they want, to be sure.

Her last name is "Fryrear"

@1 I'm reminded of how "literal" or "literally" has become one of the few words in the language to mean itself and its exact opposite. While people do still use it correctly, it's almost equally employed like this:

"I laughed so hard, I literally shat my pants!"

I can't help but ask about the mess whenever someone says something like that.

@9

I think that might be akin to torturing yourself in order to prove that Abu Ghraib was a bad idea.

I mean, I was born into that culture and I have a hard enough time around them, and they aren't even trying to make me fantasize about sucking dick. I can't imagine putting up with that crap voluntarily and *on top of that* having them try to convince me that my sexual orientation was wrong.

On the other hand, if you make the right friends there, you might hook yourself with a large supply of free one pot dinners based on cream of mushroom soup as well as formed jello salads.

And Dan, you had the right idea. They support your right to "determine" that your "self" should be just the way they tell you it should be.

Am I the only one that thinks those ex-gay programs are probably the best way to hook up with really hot gay boys and girls? There's no way you can convince me most of the people in those programs are Cured of Teh Gay afterward. (Kind of like curing your eye color, if you ask me. Then again, they used to beat the hell out of left-handed kids to "cure" them of that, too.)

@9...my mom has offered to pay for it already! I think @16 and i were thinking along the same lines...LOL

Well, as long as for you really hot = self hating and tormented, then sure.

Also, just because these "ex-gays" are actually gay don't think you are off the hook on the cream of mushroom soup. Steeped in the culture, steeped in the food.

I didn't want to have to do this, but I am forced to mention: Cream of Celery soup.

@14
Nice David Cross quote.

i love how FOTF can stand for Focus on the Family, Focus on the Fag, and Fear of the Fag. All three are so apt.

The Christian idiots are small minded biggots. In Judaism we have a rainbow of opinions from the ultra-Orthodox who hate gays and stab them at Jerusalem Pride Parades, to the reform Jews who allow gay couples in the Synagog.

Judaism allows for some Jews to hate gays and try to kill them because in a real religion you allow a wide range of beliefs. Liberal Jews should not criticize ultra-Orthodox Jews who hate gays.

But all Jews must hate Christians and criticize their idiot beliefs.