9-11 Truthers are wacky bunch.

What I don't get is that the Bush Administration couldn't manage and fight a war against a bunch of rag-tag, barefooted Iraqi insurgents and their meglomaniacal tin-horn dictator, but somehow was competent enough to pull off the world's worst terrorist attack and at the same time keep all of those people involved totally quiet.

The Bushies couldn't hide Haditha, or Abu Ghraib, or Foleygate, or all the other scandals, but somehow has managed to keep all the 9-11 "inside job" information top secret?

Yeah, right.

the problem with 9/11 truth is that even if it were true, it wouldnt change the situation that we are in now.

What do you say to Truthers? I dunno, keep taking the lithium?

Re: Implosion of the Towers.
See also: Contingency Plan

The 'exploding rivets' or whatever was detonated in the little puffs of smoke just prior to the towers imploding were built into the building. Do you really think the planners of the towers did not see this scenerio playing out? If the buildings were ever damaged to the point that the building was unrecoverable or too expensive to repair, they had a dismantling procedure built in which was highly cost-effective. Worked like a charm. JMHO

Re: Implosion of the Towers.
See also: Contingency Plan

The 'exploding rivets' or whatever was detonated in the little puffs of smoke just prior to the towers imploding were built into the building. Do you really think the planners of the towers did not see this scenerio playing out? If the buildings were ever damaged to the point that the building was unrecoverable or too expensive to repair, they had a dismantling procedure built in which was highly cost-effective. Worked like a charm. JMHO

Re: Implosion of the Towers.
See also: Contingency Plan

The 'exploding rivets' or whatever was detonated in the little puffs of smoke just prior to the towers imploding were built into the building. Do you really think the planners of the towers did not see this scenerio playing out? If the buildings were ever damaged to the point that the building was unrecoverable or too expensive to repair, they had a dismantling procedure built in which was highly cost-effective. Worked like a charm. JMHO

Re: Implosion of the Towers.
See also: Contingency Plan

The 'exploding rivets' or whatever was detonated in the little puffs of smoke just prior to the towers imploding were built into the building. Do you really think the planners of the towers did not see this scenerio playing out? If the buildings were ever damaged to the point that the building was unrecoverable or too expensive to repair, they had a dismantling procedure built in which was highly cost-effective. Worked like a charm. JMHO

Re: Implosion of the Towers.
See also: Contingency Plan

The 'exploding rivets' or whatever was detonated in the little puffs of smoke just prior to the towers imploding were built into the building. Do you really think the planners of the towers did not see this scenerio playing out? If the buildings were ever damaged to the point that the building was unrecoverable or too expensive to repair, they had a dismantling procedure built in which was highly cost-effective. Worked like a charm. JMHO

OOPS!

I think stevjabs just activated his own dismantling procedure.

Joe Szwaja: 9/11 truther? You decide.

http://www.seattleweekly.com/news/blogs/dailyweekly/2007/09/civics_101.php

@4-8 If you repeat the same nonsense enough times, people will begin to believe it. If you repeat the same nonsense enough times, people will begin to believe it. If you ...

OH YEAH? HEY CHUMP, BUILDINGS DON'T JUST CAVE IN ON THEMSELVES! THEY DON'T! TRUST ME, I KNOW THIS STUFF! AND HOW COME THIS ONE GUY SAID SOMETHING ABOUT HOW A PLANE MIGHT CRASH INTO A BUILDING SOMEWHERE - IN 1999?!?!?!?! 1999!!!!!! WHY CAN'T YOU SHEEP OPEN YOUR EYES?!?!?!?!

Also @4-8: That's a neat-o theory you have based on zero evidence. It kind of highlights the issue that the Truthers are getting at. The Truthers don't seem to be a movement set on proving that Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/etc. are an evil race of space aliens sent to this planet to enslave us by orchestrating massive building implosions and forcing us to watch Britney spears videos; it's people asking reasonable questions.

I wouldn't consider myself a conspiracy theorist either, but I've certainly wondered about WTC 7, the reason for the "too perfect" collapses, and other aspects of the story that don't add up. It seems the administration's most impressive accomplishment has been to convince the masses that anybody asking questions must be either a terrorist or a fucking lunatic.

Not that this will settle anything, but...

Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA's preliminary report, which said there was relatively light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. "The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, physical damage to the south face of building 7," NIST's Sunder tells PM. "On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom — approximately 10 stories — about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out." NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7's upper stories and its southwest corner.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST's analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of "progressive collapse," a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or "kinks," in the building's facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

According to NIST, there was one primary reason for the building's failure: In an unusual design, the columns near the visible kinks were carrying exceptionally large loads, roughly 2000 sq. ft. of floor area for each floor. "What our preliminary analysis has shown is that if you take out just one column on one of the lower floors," Sunder notes, "it could cause a vertical progression of collapse so that the entire section comes down."

There are two other possible contributing factors still under investigation: First, trusses on the fifth and seventh floors were designed to transfer loads from one set of columns to another. With columns on the south face apparently damaged, high stresses would likely have been communicated to columns on the building's other faces, thereby exceeding their load-bearing capacities.

Second, a fifth-floor fire burned for up to 7 hours. "There was no firefighting in WTC 7," Sunder says. Investigators believe the fire was fed by tanks of diesel fuel that many tenants used to run emergency generators. Most tanks throughout the building were fairly small, but a generator on the fifth floor was connected to a large tank in the basement via a pressurized line. Says Sunder: "Our current working hypothesis is that this pressurized line was supplying fuel [to the fire] for a long period of time."

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors — along with the building's unusual construction — were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.

So, I thought the interesting thing about the article was the differences among Truthers' beliefs. I mean, saying planes did not actually hit the Towers is a totally different (and much crazier) thing than saying the government "willfully ignored clear evidence 9/11 was going to happen".

I would be much more inclined to pay attention to the Truth movement if there weren't fringe people lumped in there that thought things like there were no planes, the planes had no people on them, etc.

With a little prodding I might be able to be convinced that the government knew about the attackes, but I doubt I could ever be convinced that they actively carried them out.

9-11 truthers are as out of it as the Red Bushies are.

Delusional beliefs can frequently be a sign of drug side effects or Alzheimer's ...

and I should point out that people don't really understand that modern buildings are a lot less substantial than people realize.

It seemed to me that Paul Constant's article was a little too easy on these "truthers." Maybe I was hoping for something more vitriolic since this is the Stranger. These people are lunatics on the level of creationists, Scientologists, Mormons, and holocaust deniers. I also would have liked him to tear apart their "evidence" head on, but perhaps he feels so many credible investigations have already done this that it's a waste of time.

@19 - actually, if it's a waste of time, it's because it seems pretty clear most "Truthers" don't really want the truthful explanation if it will turn out to be the commonly accepted one. They're more satisfied exchanging folk beliefs about material science and what some guy said in passing in a late 90's congressional briefing one time.

The responsibility of truth, justice and accountability for 9/11 should not have an expiration date.

Six years has allowed the Truth Movement to grow from concerned individuals who found inconsistencies in the reported story, commission hearing and commission report into growing bodies of highly credible professionals in government, military, industry and academia. This list grows by the day.
patriotsquestion911 (dot)com
ae911truth (dot) org
stj911 (dot) org

I have talked to Norman Mineta personally about his timeline on that morning and the events in the PEOC.

It is irresponsible almost to the point of complicity if we do not take the research, analysis, and experience of these professionals and move forward with a truly independent and extremely thorough investigation.

Ask yourself what you *believe* and what you actually *know* about the events of 9/11. It is past time for a new investigation. What will we tell our future generations, our children about 9/11?

Some guy in a cave orchestrated it?

The scope of WeAreChangeSeattle.org is not just 9/11. I encourage all of you to visit our site personally and see for yourself.

Conspiracies on such a grand scale are simply impossible by human nature. Gather more than 10 people from different backgrounds together, and at least one of them will be too stupid, arrogant or greedy to keep the secret. Hell, even family members rat out mobsters.

That said, we'd still like to know what happened on those planes. I'm left with the assumption that nearly 300 americans cowered in a corner of a jumbo jet because some scary little dudes slit a flight attendant's throat. (Despite what the movies portray, you don't die instantly from that!) We have one story of a judo champ charging a cockpit on the PA flight, but can we really believe that? Out of those 300 some people, only one of them had any guts? It's not hard to beat up a smaller man who's holding a tiny razor knife, especially if you know you're life is on the line. Were there no former or current military personnel on those planes? (You know, people with some hand-to-hand combat training.) Does the government just want us believe that some wacko with a pocket knife can bring the country to a stand-still?

The other truth I'd like to find out is why EVERYONE in the US government panicked. Bush went into hiding for most of the day (a fact that is conveniently forgotten). Norman Minetta, a Clinton holdover, rashly decided that *no* air travel was safe for three days (or someone decided that for him). Other than destroying an already faulty airline industry's economics, the message was that "We don't know what happened, and we can't stop if from happening again."

If we really knew what happened on those planes, do you think there would ever be a chance for it to happen again? I'd like to think that 300+ americans would stand up to 19 psychos with boxcutters.... if that's what really happened.

The lunatics do indeed kill off most of the "truth" credibility. The answer - such as it is - has always seemed ridiculosly simple to me :

Did the US orchestrate the attacks? Of course not. That's ridiculous.

Did 19 ragtag dudes with boxcutters wreak that kind of havoc all by their lonesome? Of course not. That's ridiculous.

Did the US have some notion that 19 ragtag dudes might have something in mind, and lay back just a little, to see what they might be able to gain out of the deal? Maybe so, maybe not. But as a thought, that one is certainly not ridiculous.

Unfortunately, that last one also paints a picture with dots that are very difficult to ever connect. Which the "artists" know. And which the "patrons", at the end of the day, for all their huffing and puffing, really don't care enough about to follow all the way through. Which the "artists" are also fully aware of.

After all - we got Britney and company to keep us occupied. Life is good.

@22 - The box cutters worked because conventional wisdom at the time was if you are hijacked, do what they say and chances are you'll make it out alive.

I think Flight 75 was shot down by Dick Cheney.

----------------

@21 - I believe there was massive cover-up regarding 9/11, but it was mostly just administration officials covering their asses afterwards. Did they have pre-9/11 intelligence about a plane attack? Yes. Was it specific enough (dates?, locations?) to do anything about? Maybe. Was their complicity on the part of the Bush Administration to let it happen? Maybe.

However, did the Bush Administration actually perpetrate 9/11? I don't think they could've pulled it off if they wanted to.

Could a guy in a cave pull it off? The beauty of the 9/11 attack (if you can see beauty in such a thing) was its simplicity. The only difficult thing is finding pilots willing to fly a plane into a building and kill thousands of Americans. If all the suicide bombings in recent years are any indication, that's not so hard to find in certain parts of the world.

As for how the buildings fell, I think the 9/11 Truthers should take some physics lessons. Everything, from the pancaking floors, to the footprint, to the puffs of smoke is simple physics. Do yourselves a favor ... stick with exposing the cover-up. Wired buildings and alien space-rays make you all sound like a bunch of kooks.

@21 - What will we tell our future generations, our children about 9/11?

Some guy in a cave orchestrated it?

Why wouldn't we?

You say that like it's a self-evidently absurd idea. Which, to anyone not being willfully obtuse, it isn't.

The collapses have been analyzed by the group that writes building code (ICC). ICC is not government sponsored. There are logical reasons the twin towers reacted they way they did. I have not read about tower 7.
It wasn’t the jet fuel that kept the fires going to the point the steel failed. It was the contents of the building. (Paper, office furniture, floor and wall coverings, etc.) There was a known problem with the fire proofing on the steel and it failed. Once the steel failed, gravity took over.

"Willfully Obtuse" - excellent buzz word.

Was a guy in a cave able to have NORAD stand down or orchestrate the NORAD drills that day?
Do you know of the R.A.F. documents where they were bombing Saddam in order to get him to attack?

Are you familiar with False Flag Operations?
Are you familiar with the Hegelian Dialect of Problem, Reaction Solution?
Are you familiar with Operation Northwoods where the U.S. Government put 9/11 style attack plans to paper? Are you familiar with Operation Gladio that was carried out? Do you know it is now admitted that we blew up the USS MAINE for the Spanish American war.

Looks like Britney is winning

@22: Yes, it's extremely plausible that 300+ Americans just let hijackers take over the plane. As #24 said, conventional wisdom at the time was that you don't fight back. Besides, despite your views that Americans are rootin', tootin' bruisers and these terrorists were "little" psychos, there were parents, children, older folks, etc., on these planes and the terrorists were normal, full-sized adults with weapons. Even rootin' tootin' Americans (who, in your mind, seem inclined to kicking people's asses) tend to stand back in such situations.

Is that truth a little different today? You betcha.

As for the government panicking - good question. I don't think anyone's forgotten, conveniently or otherwise, about Bush's behavior on that day. But you seem to forget the climate of the country on 9/11. Bush/Cheney and his little group may well have not been completely surprised by the attack, but the FAA sure as hell was. It wasn't just the message, but the reality that "we don't know what happened and we can't stop it from happening again". They had no idea if this was a first wave of attacks or if the "little" scary dudes had shot their whole wad. They, rightly, came down on the side of caution. Might be the last time in the Bush administration that a federal agency came down on the side of safety for people over corporate profit/tough guy bluster, which seems to be opposite of the conclusion you wish they'd drawn.

@24 - Flight 93, not Flight 75. Oops.

Conspiracies on such a grand scale are simply impossible by human nature. Gather more than 10 people from different backgrounds together, and at least one of them will be too stupid, arrogant or greedy to keep the secret.

Cool, forget all this anti-terrorism mumbo jumbo. Someone will just rat out the terrorists. It's impossible for them not to!

Hundreds or thousands of people are involved in making and manufacturing a new ipod, people devote their lives to being obsessive ipod fans, and it's still a surprise when a new one comes out.

This post is a wonderful example of the rainbow of opinions Judaism encourages in it's followers.

I can be both for the war and for being against the war. Or I can be against the war and for the occupation. There is no one truth.

Pity the goyium with their conspiracy theories rattling around their tiny brains. But as long as we keep sending money to Israel, and building airbases in Iraq, all is well in the world. Gevurah in the soul is the power to restrain one's innate urge to bestow goodness upon others, when the recipient of that good is judged to be unworthy and liable to misuse it.

Goyium are covered with too much darkness now to know the truth, best distract them with silly theories.

Whether or not the government was involved, aware, or ignorant, the explanation offered in the 9/11 Commission's report is insufficient: the energy required to accelerate the mass of the building towards the earth at near free-fall, pulverize the concrete in the building, sever and melt steel, and create the giant billowing plume was not present in the sum of the gravitational potential energy of the structure and the fuel reasonably guessed to be in it. That's the Law of Conservation of Energy, one of the most important cornerstones of physics. While the majority may find it preposterous to suppose that the official story isn't what really happened, it is equally preposterous to believe an explanation that requires we suspend the laws of physics. Let's just say the Giant Spaghetti Monster did it and be done with it.


For a non-scientific indictment of Dick Cheney, et al, in the murders of 3500 people on September 11, 2001, read Michael Ruppert's _Crossing The Rubicon_.

@28,

Exactly. What many people seem to forget is that there were many conflicting stories at the time; many of which the Truthers try to use for their benefit. There were rumors of the hijackers carrying boxcutters, guns, bombs on the plane. Of course it would take a few days to sort it out and it was absolutely the right decision for the FAA to ground air travel.

I also really don't understand why Truthers try to use WTC7 as evidence of a conspiracy, probably because I don't understand the purpose of destroying that building. By the time it collapsed, WTC7 had been completely evacuated. It wasn't even remotely a landmark in the same vein as the towers. If the supposed conspirators were determined to bring down an unimportant office building, why not decimate the Millennium Hilton as well? And speaking of hotels, was the Marriott's demise a part of the vast conspiracy?

I've definitely come to the conclusion that this 9/11 truth bullshit is mostly the concoction of people who can't accept that the world is a scary and unpredictable place. It's so much better to claim that a mostly unforeseen tragedy is actually the work of an evil cabal.

@33: They claim WTC7 held all the written records of the conspiracy, and therefore had to be destroyed lest us sheep discover the truth.

@33 : "I've definitely come to the conclusion that this 9/11 truth bullshit is mostly the concoction of people who can't accept that the world is a scary and unpredictable place."

Sounds to me like you would really rather not think about, let alone accept, the world being just that.

Secretwquirrel wrote:

WTC 7 might have withstood the physical damage it received, or the fire that burned for hours, but those combined factors — along with the building's unusual construction — were enough to set off the chain-reaction collapse.

But Secretsquirrel: it didn't fall as if there was a chain reaction. Each floor fell at the speed it would fall as if it was met with no almost resistance from the floor below. This 47-story building fell in a half-second more than free-fall speed.

"I got very emotional and upset and extremely red in the face. What kind of balls could these people have to accuse the government of killing its own people?"

Ari, you poor child.

You think the 'government' is some kind of benevolent entity?
History is replete with examples of a 'government' killing it's own citizens.

'Government" is just an aggregation of individuals who have, by one way or another, gained power over the 'governed'.

Right now, in America, the lizards are in charge. Disbelief will be your undoing.

@24 & 28. I second the comments about how 300+ people could let the hijackers just take over the plane. They even have recordings of the hijackers telling the passengers on the second flight to hit the towers just to stay calm that they were returning to the airport (unless, of course, the recordings were falsified by our evil lizard overlords). Now, clearly people would fight back, but then, hijackers landed planes and made demands.

My favorite part is that the group's acronym is WACS.

Says it all, really.

@39 An acronym? Is that the depth of your contribution?

We Are Change Seattle is an extension of We Are Change(N.Y.). We Are Change was a group created by families of 9/11 vicitims, includes a growing number of vicitims family members, first responders and other 9/11 heroes. We want full disclosure and education of the events of 9/11. We collectivley have done more for the heroes of 9/11 than you or our government has. So while the first responders and WAC(s) like John Feal donate organs and FDNY ladder 10 WAC(s) member John Shroeder are left with 40% lung capacity please continue with your unresearched generalizations.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/136350_epa23.html

Arguing with 9/11 conspiracists is like arguing with creationists.

No matter how implausible their claims, they always have the fallback of God/Teh Conspiracy to fill in the gaps in their logic. There's no evidence you can show that will dissuade them from their beliefs because they'll ignore it.

Quite sadly really.

We should look to understand how we were attacked on 9/11 we have gone into two wars and are bankrupting our country. Good for the truthers maybe they can shed some light on corruption. The CIA tained Bin Laden he was our man in the 80's there are pictures of him shaking hands with donald rumsfield when he wa younger we gave him the weapons to fight the russians and set him up. he's backed by people we do business with I think it's important to bring the truth to the surface it may not be that dick cheney was steering the jets by remote control but he did work for haliburton that is a huge defense contractor that provided weapons to osama bin laden. Maybe we should take a look at where the supposed terrorist come from and who they are working with. Calling people looking for answers conspiracy theorist is rude there are very deep ties between the CIA and most terrorist organizatios that are very well organized we backed many of them and still back others that someday we may be fighting.

I just finished Paul Constant’s article “Beauty is Truth” and if I had to sum up my response in one simple statement it would be, “Wow, that’s dumb.”
Please Paul, tell me how a group of such highly intelligent people – who, as you repeatedly tell us, also possess freakishly acute reasoning skills – overlook the obvious idiocy of their own arguments? “Does burning jet fuel produce white or black smoke?” Huh? Are we assuming that the only thing burning inside those buildings was the fuel? What about the melting windows, thousands of pounds of wood furniture and equal weights of paper, carpet and plastic? Or better yet, how about the argument over what temperature steel melts at? If you actually follow the news you would have heard about a steel-reinforced overpass in San Francisco that recently melted and collapsed after a tanker full of – you guessed it – FUEL that dumped over and caught fire. Or maybe the CIA didn’t want all those SF’ers to get to work on time for a week because...

Paul, the reason “the Truthers” haven’t “put up or shut up” and gained any momentum isn’t because they can’t agree or aren’t organized well enough, it’s because there really aren’t that many people that agree with them, no matter how you present a “statistic.” I.e. stating that 1/3 of Americans believe that 9-11 was an inside job isn’t really a fair representation of the stat when the vast majority of those people are actually saying only that it’s partially the government’s fault because they ignored obvious threats.

My point isn’t to argue with you Paul, it’s to say “Shame on you” for not applying your own reasoning skills in order to give us an good, critical report on a group of paranoid delusionals making outrageous claims (yes, they are making claims, not just asking questions as you assert). The Stranger rightly accuses agencies like Fox News for softballing Republicans...there’s something about a pot and a kennel coming to mind...

-Tom

RE: #42 -

Halliburton sells weapons? To Osama bin Laden? And Dick Cheney shook his hand? Uhhh, are you sure about all that?

Either you're an idiot of you are purposefully misinforming people. Which one? Either way the BS you "truth" people spread knows no bounds.

see also: video of 9/11 first responder describing the countdown he heard before building 7 (the 47-story WTC building that fell at 5:20 p.m. on September 11, 2001) fell

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