Comments on Furthermore

see, that's what I was saying.

glad Charles agrees.

"American classical music is jazz."

So what's Aaron Copland then? Bad jazz?

copland did not make american music. he made european music.

Utterly ridiculous. They don't play Coltrane because Coltrane is interesting music. Black, white, brown - it doesn't matter ... the complex rhythms, the improvisation ... for anyone who enjoys music, it's hard NOT to listen to jazz when it's being played. If they were playing Coltrane, I might go down to the bus stop just to chill.

They play European classical music because it is stuffy and, presumably, kids don't like it. As was pointed out in response your other post, white kids don't like Easy Listening any more than black kids.

Iamblichus on Pythagoras and music:

"And there are certain melodies devised as remedies against the passions of the soul, and also against despondency and lamentation, which Pythagoras invented as things that afford the greatest assistance in these maladies. And again, he employed other melodies against rage and anger, and against every aberration of the soul. There is also another kind of modulation invented as a remedy against desires."

Pythagoras taught that the purest type of sound comes from stringed instruments and that wind instruments tend to excite the lower nature rather than to quiet it, an observation later corroborated by Plato.

This may or not be en pointe regarding the subject at hand, but one wonders how precisely the music is chosen for these public spaces.

i just read these posts for the sheer hathos it inspires in me.

I'm glad these people have no power outside academia.

That must have been the reasoning—no, that was the reasoning.

Are you reporting this as fact? Do you have a source? Did someone call Pierce Transit to confirm it?

Pythagoras and Plato were pig-ignorant assholes.

You're right, Charles, about American classical music, but you're not understanding that these places are not presenting a dissertation on American classical music; they're trying to drive away thugly kids. Black thugly kids AND white thugly kids. European classical music is simply going to work a lot better.

It's very unlikely that the people, uh, orchestrating this thing know or care anything more about the classical music they're playing, or any other kind of music, than the "thugs" do. It's just a question of tolerance, and what kinds of sounds and symbols drive you away. Respectable middle class people, white or black, can listen to classical music in the background all the damn day long. These kids can't. Or so they hope.

I'll bet most of the kids they're driving away are, in fact, white.

And as far as 2007 goes, both classical and jazz are museum musics. There's nothing happening there. Wynton Marsalis can moan about the kids not understanding their heritage, and he's right, but it's a lost cause. America isn't a musical country anymore.

Good lord... I'm sorry, but I know plenty of black people who love European classical music. I also know plenty of white people who love Jazz, Rap, and Hip Hop. I doubt race is the issue here.

European classical music, as you insist on designating it, is an acquired taste. It's rare that you find a young person, a kid, a child, a youth, who enjoys symphonies without being taught to like them. Children whose parents enjoy that music would probably enjoy it more than their peers, but that's the parent teaching the child that that form of music is enjoyable.

If you ask most high school kids what type of music they like you'll get many answers, but one frequent answer is "anything but country" or "anything but classical". Urban kids are taught to like music like Pop, Rap, Hip Hop, Metal, Indie, etc. They're not frequently taught to like Bach, no matter their race.

Um, you descry, on the one hand, the fact that Coltrane isn't played at bus stops, then on the other eshew his main form of expression - the solo - as being anathemic to the Black Experience?

WTFIUWT?

And seriously, your entire argument is invalidated by the very simple and obvious fact that one of the most notorius locations for "thuggish kids" to hang out downtown is the bus stop outside Benaroya Hall, which plays all manner of "European classical music" at all hours of the day and night.

And which, BTW, doesn't seem to have had much effect on reducing the number of juvenile delinquents, crack addicts, pan handlers, screaming mental cases, and dealers who hang out there from what I've observed.

He's just spouting random crap trying to get a response now isn't he?

charles, you say it is exposed as racist, but i do not follow your logic. you assume that because white music was selected that proves it is racist. you continue with broad generalizations explaining that different music styles mean different things to different races. but how, given that, would choosing to play ancient white music racist?

are you saying it is racist to assume gang members don't like classic music?

or is it racist because you believe unpopular or at least calming music from all cultures should be included?

or is it racist to not want people loitering? or to not play music those loitering might actually like?

i just miss the connection... so i have a hard time responding. i feel like you explain a black man and a white man were in a fight, and you say, "see, the one is black, and the other white: that is racism."

Silly essentialism. And kinda stupid too.

Sorry, I must have missed this - I ride the bus every day, and I have yet to hear classical (or any) music being officially piped at any bus stop, except for the one in front of Benaroya Hall. And is it worth speculating on ulterior motives for why the city's classical music hall might be piping classical music?

charles.. COMTE got you at @10. nothing but classical at the benaroyal hall stop. that stop is the second thugliest bus stop in seattle( the ones around mc donalds tie with the one near 3rd and yesler for 1st place. that stop is thugly AND smells like pee/vomit and there are aid cars, bike police, fire trucks,and other serve and protect agencies almost constantly. and about the racial make up of the downtown thugs.. i'm seeing a rainbow of thugs these days.. black, white, asian,hispanic all concentrated largely in the stops around macy's and mc donalds and the newest addtion to thuggery .. african thugs seemingly 1st generation nee american thugs.. that shit seems to be picking up steam ..
myabe they should go back to piping in new country like they did originally.

Merzbow. Merzbow is the final solution.

Comte (@10), did you mean to say "decry" (which means to denounce) rather than "descry" (which means to discern)? That would make more sense. Also, anathemic is not a word. I assume you meant to say "anathema." Also, "eschew" is the proper spelling.

My advice--if you're going to be a snot and try to flaunt your supposed erudition by dropping big words, you'd be wise to consult the dictionary first.

PEDANT ALERT PEDANT ALERT PEDANT ALERT

Charles, what would you think if they drove everyone away with Hootie and the Blowfish?

Phelix @ 9 says:

It's rare that you find a young person, a kid, a child, a youth, who enjoys symphonies without being taught to like them. Children whose parents enjoy that music would probably enjoy it more than their peers, but that's the parent teaching the child that that form of music is enjoyable.

I was going to try to argue the point of musical taste being "taught" but realized that it was such a nonsensical point in the first place that there was no reasonable answer. Suffice it to say that it's different if parents play music (any music) that they enjoy around their children who then learn to love that music than it is when busloads of kids are taken to Benaroya Hall to see the Seattle Symphony go through all the famous bits from Carmen and Beethoven's Fifth.

No, Charles. Classical music is classical music. Jazz is jazz. You do not get to use your pseudo-intellectualism to redefine already well-defined branches of the musical spectrum.

Why is jazz not used? Because, yes, they may accidentally like it - not because it's "black music" (and that, btw, exposes you as musically stunted if not racist yourself), but because teenage kids in America, generally, dislike classical music more than they dislike jazz music. And the point, Charles, is to drive these kids away from the bus stop, no?

The fact that you seem to be some sort of intellectual papa bear at the Stranger gives me concern about the mental capacities of the rest of the staff...

Policia @ 17:

Yes, I did mean "decry", I'll give you that.

However, despite your hoity-toity pedancy, does it really need mentioning that people make up new words all the time, which is why those beloved dictionaries of yours have to periodically publish "revised editions"?

Or are you the sort of linguistic fundamentalist who complains whenever the OED adds new, completely made-up "words" like "d'oh!", "crunk" or "twonk"?

So:

¡Por favor, muerda mi asno brillante de metal!

We can dispose of Charles' argument with his very first line!
"The whole business of playing European classical music in public places that are troubled by black thugs"
No one said they were troubled by black thugs. They said they were troubled by gang members and gang activity. If that makes you think "black people" (or the "blackest" Americans, as you said yesterday), that's Your Own Special Issue, not anyone else's.

Arrrgh! Copland, European music? Then what about Gershwin, Philip Glass, John Adams and John Cage?
The best classical music in the XXth century, especially the second half was American.
I suspect that black people overlook white music because they can't perceive it. It doesn't speak to their sensuality, or rather, they don't speak its particular language.

KMTT style "Adult Contemporary" would be better at achieving the end goal. Phil Collins will drive anyone away.

Twonk!

What about smooth jazz? Wouldn't that drive them away? If I hear that, my head explodes like the aliens in Mars Attacks!

Charles is an asshat. He's more racist and hypocritical than anyone I can imagine or know.

1. he thinks all black people are the same
2. he thinks whitey is out to thwart all black people
3. he thinks classical music to drive thugs away is a racial action because aparently no black people like classical music and all black people are thugs.

Dan Savage, sit down with your boy and tell him he needs to stop being stupid on purpose, or at least stupid out of habit.

Charles, I actually agree with you for once.

24: Black sensuality? What are you talking about? That's genuine racialism.

@30... i gave C the benefit of doubt and guessed him to mean this is the prejudice that white people believe. "don't play jazz.... it will make them... i don't know... sexual! i'm a racist!!! and did i mention i'm white?"

or maybe he actually holds this as a belief about culture.

i would like to add the disclaimer that i believe there are still white racists running amuck, and that inequities are easily spotted. i just don't see them here. or, as i posted earlier, can i even understand how anyone could see it here. ???

It's charles for god's sake. he finds racism, marxism and any ism that he believes exists behind anything; from marshmellow peeps to general electric airplane engines to 2nd quarter trig.

I don't see outright racism here. But I see a lot of blaming the victim and structural racism in Seattleites in general: suspicion of minorities, serious disdain for black culture, fear of the poor and unwhite, belief in free market solutions for problems that are simply unsuited for market solutions, willingness to allow minorities and poor people to be pushed out of the city rather than promoting rent control, et al. But I don't see a lot of pure racist xenophobia.

And just to be clear, those attitudes are not particular to Seattle- they're everywhere, and much worse in many places.

@22, I'm not a linguistic fundamentalist--far from it. I detest fundamentalism of all sorts, and would never correct someone on a garden variety solecism, misspelling of a common word, etc. I'm a fan of good writing, which is simply good communication. I generally try to go for the simplest way of conveying what I want to convey. What irks me is when people want to flaunt vocabularies that they appear not to have (a look-at-me, I'm-better-than-you tactic), and thus fail to communicate effectively. Eschew and anathema aren't the most common words, and anyone who didn't know them and tried to figure out what you were saying by looking up your misspellings would likely be baffled.

New words are great. Languages are constantly changing and that's good. But while some new words and usages help us communicate, "anathemic" adds nothing to anathema and sounds like anthemic (thus creating confusion, rather than new meaning or ease of communication), and reads simply as an example of someone trying to sound--what you accused me of being--hoity-toity (and failing). Same goes for eshew.

Hah, 98104 - Merzbow!

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