Comments on This or That Cruelty

What is worse, to be a killer or to force someone else to kill?

What is worse, to kill or to force another to kill?

Sorry for the double-post.

i destest sport hunting but...*bang* your dead vs an HOUR long slow death by mauling.

I agree-there's not much difference-they've both killed captive animals. The perception that the VP is doing something 'sporting' and legal... well, that's the good 'ol boy double standard. Want real sport? Send them out in deep woods with basic survival gear and a knife. Sounds fun to me.

"Sport Hunting"? I think you can only really call it a sport when both sides know they are playing. In regards to your question Charles, if you had to be killed would you rather get a single bullet to the head, be torn apart by dogs, or be picked up and smashed into concrete repeatedly?
That said, hunting is retarded and cruel, but not quite as horrible as torture.

Or were you referring to old man hunting?

How is Vick’s form of animal cruelty different from the one practiced by the Vice President?

It's more prolonged and painful and dosen't result in a tasty lunch?

Hmmmm, I agree with Sporty but then unless Charles does not eat meat you should go to a slaughter house and watch them kill cattle, pigs and chickens. It is less cruel than dog fighting but not as merciful as sport hunting.

There's no outrage over what Cheney shoots because people like dogs a helluva lot more than they like lawyers.

Is the question one about Dick Cheney shooting stocked game at a hunting ranch vs. dog fighting as sport? Or is it about hunting vs. dog fighting as a sport?

The former speaks to wealth, privilege, government-reasoning-for-hunting (animal population control), and the ultimate need/use for the dead animal (is it a “trophy mount” kill or is it “food for the family” kill) vs. a felony sport where the outcome is death for the dog and money/honor/thrill-of-victory for the winning owner.

The later speaks to government-reasoning-for-hunting (animal population control) and ultimate need/use for the dead animal vs. a felony sport where the outcome is death for the dog and money/honor/thrill-of-victory for the winning owner.

Sigh.

agreed w/ mr.poe.
lame

Charles, stop pretending to be stupid. Right now.

Americans are such silly hypocrites, eh, Charles?

Agreed w/mr. poe and aarons. Lame.

At least ostensibly, quail hunting is about obtaining a source of food, and predators hunting and eating prey is only natural. Dog fighting is unnatural, and provides no benefit but entertainment for those who enjoy bloodsports.

Hunting ranches suck. They're completely aimed at the "rich white guy out for a cheap thrill via killing a captive animal" crowd, the exact crowd who should be left on a ranch to be shot at.

My father hunts (and fishes, where's the outrage!). He doesn't torture animals (if one shot doesn't do it, he will break their neck), and he eats what he shoots.

Neither does he torture his dogs. He won't even take our golden retriever hunting anymore, since she doesn't like it.

It is not the same. You can always tell who is the city kid.

Alot of American's regard canines with the same special fondness they have for their guns. Quit waxing baffled.

Dogs are further up the totem pole in the states than ducks.

It isn't much different, but nobody keeps an upland bird as a pet, so there is nobody to be outraged. Plus, birds don't have as much pesonality.

Whatever the reason, I'm sure it has nothing whatsoever to do with one cruel pastime being a favorite of the wealthy and the other cruel pastime being a favorite of poor people who are often of foreign descent.

this isn't just about the animal in question. and it isn't just about the type of death. (though examining both would go a long way to answering your question, charles.)

this is also about the activity in and of itself. and it is about what it is inside a person that brings them pleasure.

the activity of hunting is different from training and watching dogs fight. death is not the only concern.

but greater than that, what does it say about a person who likes to watch cruelty -- and to inflict it -- for entertainment. is the joy of the hunter to watch the prey suffer? what is the joy of the dog trainer? what ends are left remaining.

these acts seem so different on so many levels, to draw equivalencies is possible, but rather limited. you might as well compare it to war, killing spiders or building the brooklyn bridge.

Charles knows there is a difference between hunting and dog execution, but he apparently needed a softball and comment-bait for his post.

you are correct, torrent. but even with his setup, it is not right to frame this as "hunting versus dog execution". it is "hunting versus dog fighting and execution."

I enjoy catching a fish by a hook through its face. I then pull the fish, by said hook, out of the water (I suppose, kinda like pulling an air breathing animal into the water). From there, I typically string the fish through its gill and mouth with a nylon rope and throw it back in the water temporarily so it stays fresh. Later, I will cut off the fish's head with a sharp knife.

and what about this process do you enjoy, Mahtli69?

if you enjoy inflicting pain upton the fish, and prolong the suffering, and then do not eat the fish... then you are committing a morally corrupt action.

but if you enjoy catching the fish, or if you enjoy eating the fish, then those are just steps -- perhaps unpleasant at that. while the ends does not always justify the means, you do have to kill a fish in order to eat a fish. both acts are morally acceptable. furthermore, you do not have to enjoy the pain you inflict in order to do so.

So let me get this straight:

Black people like dogfighting therefore it's racially motivated to crack down on dogfighting?

Or Rich Black Men like dogfighting so it's a way to crack down on Rich Black Men?

Im sorry charles but you know what; Dog fighting is not something you let people do out of respect for their culture.

Shooting ducks and making dogs fight aren't the same thing. If Vick was shooting ducks no one would have said anything. And why wasnt he shooting ducks? because it isnt acceptable for black people do to it? Im sorry but if you have to bet on dogfighting to be black and shoot ducks to be white, you have to live in a fucked up dichotomous world that you bend to make you feel better about your self righteous spin on things.

You're attempting to compare a "sport" in which a hunter kills an animal, versus a "sport" where one animal is forced to kill another.

In order to make this a fair comparison, the Quail would need to be mounted with miniature shotguns with which to shoot.

(Which, BTW, would be frikkin' sweeeet!)

I would find no moral objection to Michael Vick's pasttime so long as he eats the dog he kills.

Actually in all seriousness. It's pretty damn hyprocritical in a number of ways to look at it. Do I think dog fighting should be illegal yes, do I think sport hunting should be legal, yes. Do I know why? Actually no ... I don't know why. Bird shot is pretty damn gruesome, but what can I say back in the day it got the job done. Maybe the animals can get away?

It's not worth thinking about. Fundamentally I think dog fighting is CLASSLESS, not so much gruesome but classless. Like spitting at your teacher classless.

I know why dog fighting should be illegal and why sport huntin should not:

Because Black people dont do sport hunting.

(This is the implication of charles' posts)

Ill give you a real reason why. Dogs are pets, have a vital role in the lives of many people, and society has deemed it bad to fight/hurt animals that we care about in such a way.

Even black people don't like dogfighting unless they are actively involved in it.

@27 - It's not just about hunting in general, but canned hunts in particular, which are primarily the domain of the wealthy, and which even many hunters' organizations consider unethical. The point isn't that dogfighting should be allowed; it's that only the poor's brand of cruelty gets frowned upon.

@26 - I just like fishin! Nothing less, nothing more. But, I was also pointing out that fishing is a rather brutal process (for the fish).

People are pissed about Vick, because dogs are second only to people on the "social scale". They are "man's best friend" and part of the family. If Vick was running a cock-fighting operation, nobody would give a crap.

@31 wouldn't a more apt comparison be to a fox hunt? even that is not exact as the enjoyment comes from the tradition, chase, and catch not in watching two animals brutalize each other followed by a torturous death. and aren't fox hunts illegal or mostly looked down upon, despite them being enjoyed solely by the wealthiest of the wealthy?

@30 ....

I really really wanted to agree with you until I remembered that ... well shady redneck white people do a lot of dog fighting too for a number of years before it became an inner city phenomina. Maybe that's it, dog fighting brings togethor shady people of various ethnicities.

I mean isn't it beautiful? Blacks, whites, hispanics, all coming togethor to fight dogs? Isn't it wonderful that there is something so universal color blind as dog fighting? Just like the dogs in the ring.

Maybe if Cheney took Colin Powell with him hunting everyonce in a while there wouldn't be such contraversy (maybe Colin Powel isn't dumb enough to go with him!)

Deer hunting ... cool. Moose, fine. Really any prey animal I don't have much of an issue with hunting. I have a HUGE issue with predator hunting because it really really messes up the ecosystem. Wolves and cougers. Couger hunting is becoming controversial, but couger attacks are incredibly rare. I guess ... I'd ok with predator hunting or endangered animal hunting IF they had a huge huge huge liscencing fee ... the more endangered the animal, the greater the cost of the fee. Hunt Pandas ... 7 million a panda, why not? Want to go whaling, charge money for it.

to reiterate: stepping on an ant in your kitchen is hardly the same as burning an ant in your driveway with a magnifying glass.

@31: "it's that only the poor's brand of cruelty gets frowned upon."


Michael Vick is wealthier than all of the respondents to Charles' post combined, 10 times over.


Like someone else said, dog fighting is classless and base, and poor trash of all races can and do engage in it.

grr I meant to just say "trash". Stupid no-edit feature.

OR Matt.
YES! You get it! Thank you for pointing out that all races dog fight. I wanted someone to point that out besides myself.

I think the real question here is, How is Charles' post any different than shooting fish in a barrel?

As color blind as the dogs themselves

Just a reminder, Vick not only participated in dog figthing, which is like school on Sunday...no class, but he tortured and killed them as well....which is disturbed and criminal behavior. Dog fighting is illegal and so is animal cruelty. Here's a lovely picture of one of these poor animals used for "sport."

As much as I dislike Dick Cheney and killing animals for fun..or sport or whatever you want to call it...bird hunting is legal. And, if I had to make a judgement, I would sooner see birds killed than dogs..that's just me. Also, the whole food thing...."hunters" like Dick Cheney don't eat the fucking birds they eat, they just go to places that cater to fat rich drunk assholes that like to shoot the fuck out of a bunch of birds for fun, not for food.

That picture is totally misleading, Cheney hunts from the back of a pickup truck shooting birds that are trapped in bushes (wedged in upside down so they can't get out). 'Shooting fish in a barrel' is an apt description. An image of a hunter standing in the open aiming at some bird in flight is misleading and shows Cheney in a favourable light.

Another wonderful facet of the gutter, garbage "culture" of hip-hop. I hope they lynch that fucker from the tallest tree in Virginia.

it just baffles me as to why a multimillionaire football player can't help himself but to dog fight. In fact, any person that chooses a profession that is contingent on not getting a felony that constitutes a mandatory minimum sentence, should do absolutely everything within their power to AVOID COMMITTING FELONIES OR GETTING CAUGHT!!!

@44 - Yeah, blame the existence of dog-fighting on Jay-Z. Are you out of your mind?

I will ignore your blatantly racist comment as the product of stupidity and the 1st Amendment.

i advocate shooting and/or torturing to death all of the following: white people, black people, rich peeoplee, poor people, all dogs, all ducks, presidents, vice presidents (just ours), bloggers/commenters... just about everybody but riz rollins. that man's a saint.

Dog fighting is still primarily a red state criminal activity. I think the media hype over Vick's involvement will give it national prominence and lead to a reduction of both its popularity and its acceptance. Hopefully this affect a lot of nasty people of all races.

But I'm still pissed about Jon Stewart running a bit equating Barry Bonds possible cheating at baseball with Michael Vick's large scale dog torture factory. Even Jon Stewart's show seems more interested in taking down uppity-blacks as a group than in focusing on the nature of the crimes involved.

PS
Dog fighting is NOT new on the scene because of hip hop culture! It has a long and bloody history in America and Britain and has been nurtured and kept alive over the years primarily by white people!

Hunting purely for sport is despicable. Adding a long and painful death for the animal is yet worse.

uppity blacks should use the opportunity to lead the way for all blacks to follow a good example, not simply avoid getting caught dogfighting.

and stewart can make jokes about it cause he's a comedian. black people are fair game 2007.

What's wrong with us, the Peeoplee?

Poor Peeoplee advocates have rigthsees ttoo!

sASDLFJKAS D;FJASODFJ ASDVFAJS PF9Q2U4J!!!

Ok, I was just making fun of Adrian's typo. Dog fighting is lame, whatever race you happened to be born in. I didn't see the daily show where Jon Stewart was making that comparison with BB, but that is even more lame. Give fucking Barry Bonds a break. Do you really think he's the only MLB player on steroids?

Anyhow Charles, there is a difference between shooting quail and dogs, I suppose, but not much, dogs have a much more advanced central nervous system, and bigger brains, and are much closer related to us genetically than quail or whatever. I got into a huge arguement about this with this Hindu guy from India, and it kind of makes sense, you should make the case for why we eat cows. I guess this opens up a lot of arguements.

I can't wait until the dolphins take us over.

Dog fighting is much closer analogously to fox-hunting than sport shooting. Dog fighting is illegal in the USA and sport shooting is not. Though still legal in the US, fox hunting has been criminalized in Great Britain, which remains a matter of some contoversy.

Dog fighting and bear baiting by dogs has been a popular with some people since at least Roman times and came to the Amercas with the colonists. Wildly popular in medieval Britain it continued to be so well into the 19th century, hence pit bulls and bull dogs which were specially bred for the "sport".

The idea that pleasure from blood sports was barbaric began to gain currency at the same time as the movement to abolish slavery. Human bondage and unnecessary cruelty to animals were both seen as unbecoming to civilized people.

excuse me, but that's how you spell peeopplee when they are rich. typo, indeed! hmph!

Frankly, as far as I can see, Goldy totally nailed it in #10. No further comments needed.