Comments on The Real Problem with Kerlikowske

"My guess..."

Hey, Josh, get out of the office and do a little basic reporting, not speculation.

You'll never get hired at the P-I this way. Joel is not your only problem.

How many invidivual posts are we going to see today on Kerlikowske?

put on by seattle naacp. city hall at 12:15. be there!

"I think good cops (most cops) appreciate the OPA system."

Wrong. Thats just wishful thinking. Most cops loathe outsiders. Its a military cliquish culture.

I do agree that most cops are good cops, but the us against them mentality is a very real hurdle to an accountable police force, not only here, but nation wide.

@4,
I'm not so sure about that. Where do you think Carter's getting his stories? Try: Fed up cops.

I assume were talking about The whole police force Josh and not individuals and Serpico like cops. I agree with you that most cops are good cops, but most will not blow the whistle and will look the other way.

There are plenty of studies that cite the cliquish nature of most police forces. It tends to be even more cliquish when crime goes up. That is why it is worse in other more crime ridden cities.

Another problem is that the police force does not live in the city it polices. Most officers dont live in the cities and the neighborhoods they patrol.

The police accountability rally at city hall has been changed from 12:15 to 4pm-6pm.

Not to worry about the cop who got promoted. The SPD assures us he won't be supervising cops on the street.

Oh Yeah. A few dozen more people were killed today in Dan Savage's glorious war on the people of Iraq. Way to go Dan!

Anyone want to explain why in the last week Iraq has suddenly become "Dan's War"? I've read several comments in the last few days mentioning this and am confused. Has he recently come out swinging for the war or are you basing this on something he said a couple years ago?

Either way, if you care about the war so much, why not spend your energy preaching to someone besides the choir?

"Ironically, his ploy has backfired…with the cops" what do you have to back that up?

But how does this all relate to the rank and file?

@6

Interesting factoids about that: something like 75% or our cops live outside the city. Some other big cities, notably New York and Chicago, require city cops (and city employees generally) to live within city limits, but in Washington there's a specific rule at the state level-- I forget if it's in the RCW or the state constitution --that bars cities in Washington state from requiring residency as a condition of employment.

Yet another way in which Washington state hands city tax money to the suburbs and the exurbs.

Officer involved in violent arrest is promoted. No need to worry:

One of the issues of promotion is assignment," the deputy chief said. "We might have had other thoughts had this been a position that put him in charge of officers on the street."

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003765714_sackman28m.html

This conference call will never end.

@8 Wha...?

Back when it mattered, When people around the world were marching in the streets telling Bush not to make war on Iraq, Bush said he didn't listen to focus groups. Dan Savage, knowing that most people would assume a Stranger writer would likely oppose the war, came out STRONGLY IN FAVOR OF THE WAR! The Stranger ridiculed the anti-war marchers.Dan stood shoulder to shoulder with his president and supported the war. Now, of course, it turns out that the anti-war marchers were right and Dan and his president were wrong. But hey, Dan has moved on to other things including promoting himself as America's favorite homosexual on NPR. Dan's is an inspirational story! A story of a former video store clerk who has achieved greatness through non-stop self-promotion. And all those people killed and maimed in Iraq-he doesn't give a shit! To Dan it's just show business. And those of you who feel compelled to defend him-GFYS! Dan has blood on his hands, just like Hillary and Maria and Dick and George and so many others.

Agree with @1 and 9.

Josh, Dan, and Jonah are just spewing their opinions about SPD as though they're facts.

"Kerlikowske's refusal to discipline officers" - The Times says a review of cases showed that the Chief disagreed with OPA in 27 of 100 cases. In some, there was less discipline than recommended, and in others there was none. These are only the cases where OPA was involved, and does not include ones where discipline took place without OPA complaint. Looks to me like discipline happens.

Get out of your echo chamber and try reporting. Why not ask SPD how many officers have been disciplined in the last few years? The recent cases are bad, but Joel makes it sound as though no discipline has taken place at all.

And really, what is your source for that comment about rank and file?

Josh is right.
I just want to go to work, do my job, keep people from killing themselves or others, not get killed, and go home to my family.

@SeMe: Uh...do you know any cops? My brother(RIP) was an LA cop. I can assure you that rank and file cops do care about being fair, treating the public with care, and don't like the bad image they get from the 1% of assholes who abuse the power.

They work a tough job. People hate them, yet when the shit hits the fan, who does everyboday call? Who gets mad it it takes them longer than 2 minutes to get on a scene?

Also, they are human. They have bad days, they have to deal with shitty "customers" day in and day out. They have to get yelled at for doing their job (you know, traffic cops that give tickets...).

So I would stop the "cops are bad" cliche' and understand they are people with families, who do a job to protect the people. Some are shitty, but there are shitty people in all types of positions.

I do agree with Josh, and I think that this matter needs to be looked into much futher. If he doesn't have respect amoung rank and file cops, there is a problem. Cops do protect their own to some degree, but flagrant abuse of authority or non-enforcement of policy isn't something your average cop will tolerate.

@ SeMe: Sorry didn't read the "most cops are good cops" thing you said. My bad. Sorry.

Say Yes TO War On Iraq-Dan Savage Oct. 2002

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=12237

@19: Jesus, did you kids all just get out on summer break or what?

#17: Yes, cops have a tough job, are decent people etc, yet we continue to have these stupid problems. These problems are life threatening.

These 'rogue' cops are not just tolerated, they are promoted, all across the country. I'm thankful that this promotion will get this cop off the street, but he should lose his job for this. He's a danger to others and should not be in this line of work.

What is different about cops and other city workers is that they have guns and orders to kill people who get in their way. That requires a level of oversight beyond any other job.

Why does this upset you Darcy. It is simply a link to a column by Dan Savage in which he supports a war. Perhaps you don't want to think about the hundreds of billions spent, the tens of thousands of deaths, the tens of thousands of human beings physically and psychologically wounded for the rest of their lives. These numbers include children. Savage wrote it Darcy. I am simply reminding people that the man has took a position and should be held responsible for it. Time to move on you say? I say twenty decapitated bodies were found in Iraq today.

Why does this upset you Darcy. It is simply a link to a column by Dan Savage in which he supports a war. Perhaps you don't want to think about the hundreds of billions spent, the tens of thousands of deaths, the tens of thousands of human beings physically and psychologically wounded for the rest of their lives. These numbers include children. Savage wrote it Darcy. I am simply reminding people that the man has took a position and should be held responsible for it. Time to move on you say? I say twenty decapitated bodies were found in Iraq today.

The Mardi Gras riots is another aspect of all of this that I hadn't thought of. It definitely has strongly played into the mentality that the black community in this city is a criminal class.

I posted about Chief Kerlikowske over at HorsesAss last night.

@19
Wow, that really is embarrassing. I think it was a wake-up call to a lot of people that a lot of the "experts" on the Middle East (not referring to Savage, but arguably to people who Savage was basing his thought process on - see: Sullivan, Andrew) were not really experts at all. In fact, the prevailing mindset on the Middle East after 9/11 in this country was rooted almost entirely in myths about what causes the violence over there. Only now are we catching up to what certain people now more clearly understand.

@Hey: I agree fully. I read SeMe's comment as: "Most cops aren't good cops". I am tired, and fucked the pony on that one. I = asshat

@4 - actually, you're right. I used to be in a military unit (as reg staff) that was mostly cops, and they have a very dark view of most people, understandably.

You would to if most people you met lied to you, were guilty of something, and frequently tried to do you harm or at least mess with your head.

That doesn't excuse the behavior, but it puts it in perspective why they're so paranoid. Which is why I try to be nice to the ones that I run into.

For the record: I know plenty of cops. My nephew is a cop in Camden, New Jersey, the city with the highest murder rate in the country until it was overtaken by the Lou in Missourri. I grew up in Philly and my uncle was the only Latino homicide detective working North Philly. Ive known cops here and are friendly with some and I have been profiled and harassed by others.

Knowing cops doesn’t give me an insight on their culture, I know what I know from what I read and what I experienced. Just cuz we know cops does not mean we know the culture fully, it just makes some of us defensive for our loved ones. The truth of the matter is that it is a cliquish culture and it multiplies as the cities get more violent and then you see things like brutality, disparities in arrests, racial profiling, overrepresentation of minorities due to targeting of neighborhoods, no overshight, no civilian review. And yes, the majority of cops will look away or will not support outside review. It doesn’t mean theyre bad cops, it just means the culture is there and the lack of cosequences coming from the top allow it to continue. Why do you think the police guilds are such rabid bull dogs in their defense of problem officers? They have the support of the majority. Of coursey you will always find cops who are fed up and willing to go outside and go to the media or whatever. Doesn’t mean the whole culture is now welcoming of civilian review. That was my point to Josh. There has been no shift in the culture. There should be. It is to their (the cops) benefit. But that is not the case.

SeMe,
Nice comment. I grew up in the Philadelphia area as well, and saw my share of police corruption. It was very clear that blacks in my area (near Norristown) were specifically targeted by the police, especially when it came to drugs.

My grandparents lived in Camden until the 70s. What happened in that city since then has been a textbook example of how drug prohibition has destroyed certain communities. Philadelphia always had the resources to chase the dealers off the street, so they took over Camden. This phenomenon is why so many adjacent towns to big cities (especially ones across a border) have become some of the highest crime areas in the country (Newark, NJ, Camden, NJ, Gary, IN, East St. Louis, IL)

I assume you grew up in the Rizzo era. Talk about a police force gone wild.

Excellent points on small cities. Add Compton to that list.

Not quite that old, but my dad has told me some stories. I'm just old enough to remember the MOVE fire (that was almost 25 years ago now).

@25 No need to make excuses for Savage. Even Josh Feit, his co-worker knew the war would be a huge mistake. And if Feit could figure that out... No for Savage this was simply show business. A means of self-promotion through defying expectations. It was highly cynical. And the world is paying a price. When you think of Bush, think of Savage.

http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Content?oid=12236

@15: That Seattle Times study is two years old. And it doesn't include details about the cases. The Alley-Barnes case is just one of many that the OPA Review Board reviewed in a report that has been suppressed for over a year. We've just scratched the tip of the iceberg when it comes to learning about cases in which the Chief has exonerated officers and reversed or reduced OPA recommended discipline for well-documented misconduct. Chief Kerlikowske's defensiveness and unwillingness to admit that he erred on KUOW this morning and in recent press resports will come back to haunt him as these new details come out.

"scratched the tip of the iceberg"= worst mixed metaphor ever. my apologies...

@32
I wouldn't quite go that far. The Middle East is complex and even some very smart people got it wrong when it came to dealing with Saddam. But the tone of that article really bugged me. It was condescending while completely missing the bigger picture on how we need to deal with terrorism and the Middle East. He was basically parroting Andrew Sullivan's nonsense and now it looks ridiculous with 5 years of hindsight. But flipping the bozo bit on Savage over that is silly.

@14 "When it mattered"- Ok, I hear you. Dan made a bad call on an issue 5 years ago. Is he still beating the drums of war now? I'm not really looking to defend his position back then, especially since I disagreed with it, but do you think you're doing the anti-war movement any good by being a jackass?

Five years have passed, the vast majority of thinking people recognize now that the war was and is a mistake, and you're still bringing it up in a pile of unrelated posts. I hope that you're aware that it didn't matter what Dan, or really anyone else, thought or said 5 years ago.

I will say that by keeping attention on Kerlikowske the Stranger's staff may actually be influencing important local issues. I apologize to everyone reading SLOG for feeding the troll, but I couldn't help it. Please #14, keep fighting the good fight, just keep in mind where that fight is at. I think there's a strong argument that you're completely wasting your time (and everyone else's) by posting your comments about Iraq on articles about the Police Chief.

I'm pretty sure I share a lot in common with you regarding my position on the war and it pains me to see our position undermined by people who don't recognize that a single jackass can do a lot more harm to the movement than good.

I think half of the problem is that the single jackasses are exactly that ... single. And likely to stay that way.

@34

My point was that Josh and the Stranger have taken the position that the Chief never disciplines officers when OPA recommends it. That clearly is false. The Times review shows he agreed 73% of the time with their recommendations, and in some of the remaining cases still took action.

If that study is too old, Josh can be a reporter instead of just acting like one by requesting more current data.

Jonah's article says the Chief can avoid discipline by letting time to take action run out. He implies that the Chief deliberately let time run out to avoid disciplining Sackman. That's bullshit.

I think the Barnes case is bad enough without shitty reporting.

That is all...